What's wrong with Socialism?

[Xipe Totec]

I mean, seriously.

To hold society as the greatest good is, a bad thing?... :shrug:

I don't get it...

[Baikonour]

1. Most Americans equate it with totalitarian communism, like we see in China.

That's its only problem.

[Xipe Totec]

2. Totalitarian communism, bad. That I understand

But that's Communism.

Totalitarian Communism at that.

But Socialism?

The mind boggles at how the memes shut out thought.

[HughBeaumont]

7. You'd be surprised how many ordinary people, let alone conservatives, think . . .

. . . that there is absolutely NO happy and successful medium between The U.S.S.R. and Unbridled Hypercorporatism.

[Xipe Totec]

22. A society driven by memes

don't have to think; just spew the right meme and...

Well...

You know the rest...

[reggie the dog]

62. they know about us, they just choose to ignore western Europe.

[drmeow]

8. Its not even communism

in the sense of Marxist communism.

[readmoreoften]

87. China is totalitarian capitalism. I mean, for Christ sakes, it has a stock market.

It forces workers to slave in profit-producing factories. The name "communism" is just a holdover.

[liberalmuse]

3. Nothing.

But some people will inevitably tie 'socialism' with the notorious 'socialist dictatorships' of the early to mid 20th century. Conservatives don't seem to get it. You're not really free when bankers own your ass. Maybe some of us are cut from a different cloth, but I'm one of those who would prefer that my tax dollars go to help those in need rather than to help pad the already overflowing bank accounts of the wealthy. Socialism, where we're all in this together, is much better than being a lowly serf under feudalism, that's for damn sure.

[Xipe Totec]

6. Why is Socialism okay in the church,

but not outside the church?

WWJD? :shrug:

[liberalmuse]

11. Good point!

It doesn't make sense. Jesus was the ultimate socialist.

Edited for punctuation.

[LastDemocratInSC]

23. The Mormons have a socialist system

A good friend, who is a Mormon, told me about the warehouses that the church maintains for those who are in need. He lives in Atlanta and described vast stores of basic things that any family might need. The deal is this ... if one draws from those stocks one is expected to put time into maintaining the stocks by volunteering there during one's time of unemployment and by rebuilding the stocks when one is employed again.

[GreenPartyVoter]

47. Because it scores you brownie points in heaven.

[HughBeaumont]

4. "Where's the PROFIT, MAN???"

"What's in it for ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME MEEEEEEEEE????"

Uh, the answer is EVERYthing, you Republican shmucksters. Health care sans pre-existing conditions that will be there for you when you need it. Social security. A social safety net. Better roads. Better schools. Better public transportation. Better fuel efficiency. Better living conditions. Maybe a life where mere food/clothing/shelter survival doesn't have to completely depend on one being employed gainfully.

See, the Reagan-friendly answer that most Repukes/Libertarians DON'T want to give you when it comes to the dreaded "S" word . . . is that they "don't want their tax money going to Shaniqua and her nine crack babies." Yet they have absolutely NO problem with it going to Ken Lewis so he can buy their bank and fire all the workers. That's PERFECTLY OK. And yes, pretty much THE LOT of them think in stereotypes around their fellow Joe Limbaughfan friends.

[Xipe Totec]

5. You get to keep 1/300,000,000th of America's wealth

I would bet that more that you have right now...

[Hello_Kitty]

9. Oh hell, that's exactly the answer they DO want to give

The "welfare queen" meme simply WILL. NOT. DIE. No matter how you try to point out to them how welfare is pretty much gone (thank you Clinton welfare reform) and how much money is squandered on Halliburton. So long as somewhere, somehow, some brown person is getting food stamps or health care they CANNOT FUCKING STAND IT and they are happy to tell you so.

[HughBeaumont]

20. To a Republican

. . . any money not going to middle class/rich white guys = SOCIALISM!

[reggie the dog]

64. middle class???

how does the middle class get anything from the current US system??? They are trying to get rid of the middle class.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

10. When implemented democratically

(see virtually all of Scandinavia), not one damned thing.

This cowboy is all for democratic socialism.

[reggie the dog]

66. Denmark, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Scotland

just to name a few.

[spindrifter]

12. Maybe we should be thinking about the idea that economies

change. They, as institutions fulfilling the needs of societies, do not remain the same as conditions change. Capitalism as we have known it most recently has resulted in some corporations/conglomerates eating up their competition with the result that they bring suffering to their society.

[LSdemocrat]

1. Almost no one in the US knows what democratic socialism is

The biggest problem for socialism in the US is that I'd guess about 75 percent of Americans have no idea of what democratic socialism is.

Also the way communist Eastern European countries insisted on calling themselves socialists instead of communists, I think is the main reason for socialism getting a bad reputation. That and also the horribly run* British economy in the 1970's really didn't do socialism, especially democratic socialism, many favors here in the US.

*Note: I am not defending Margaret Thatcher's butchering of British society in the 1980's. I just wish there was someone else who could have done the reforming.

[originalpckelly]

13. I propose that the same things that are allegedly wrong with socialism...

are the same things wrong with corporate capitalism.

We hear that socialism is wrong because power is concentrated, that government controls the economy. Corporate capitalism, however, is wrong because power is concentrated because corporations and their owners control government.

We hear that socialism is wrong because it is a planned economic system, and that planning causes people to work harder than letting free markets determine how goods/services should be allocated. On the other hand, inside corporations, there is the same planning the occurs in a socialist system.

We hear that socialism is wrong because it places society above the individual, and crushes variation and individuality. On the other hand, corporations much streamline "choice" to create standard products/services that can be manufactured easily, which crushes variation and individuality.

Think about health care, socialized medicine is supposed to be bad because people we don't know will make decisions about how we get treated and that there are massive waiting lines for care. Yet, with corporate health care people we don't know make decisions what care we'll receive and there are long waits for all kinds of things. Has anyone tried to make a doctor's office appointment or visited an ER lately?

This is because both systems are planned economies, and have the same fundamental problems. Only, in corporate capitalism there is no air of trying to help the poor and otherwise disadvantaged people, in socialism there usually is. The people who propose either system are probably not well meaning, but it is clear that the people who support corporate capitalism are selfish greedy bastards while the people who support socialism are egalitarian and compassionate.

We need a system that corrects the flaws of both, namely planning and the lack of individuality. We need capitalism that seeks to care for the poor. In reality, if a free market behaves according to the second law of thermodynamics, the gini coefficient should go down as capital reaches as equilibrium.

The problems with capitalism are:
Corporations, and the planning they necessitate.
The uber-riche who buy off politicians.
Investment, which is not only a form of planning, but also serves to undermine the natural re-distribution of wealth that should occur as pockets of wealth are spent away and then go through the economy in successive transactions.

Feel free to add to the list.

[cobalt1999]

14. Any system taken to an extreme will fail

Capitalism or Socialism. The trick is to find the right balance.

[reggie the dog]

67. Socialism is a balance

between capitalism and communism.

[readmoreoften]

88. You can't find a balance if any capitalism is involved unless you change human nature.

The only way to "control" capitalism is through the state that exists to serve it. What would 'controlled capitalism' look like? There would need to be politicians who did not receive their propaganda funds through banks, insurers, etc. There is simply no way to control corruption of the political elite by the capitalist class. It's like saying that there needs to be a balance between "rape" and "not rape" or "war" and "not war". You don't find a balance between "healing a wound" and "letting it fester." You don't find a balance between "racism" and "non-racism." Some things are not solved through balance.

Both classical and Marxist economists agree that profit is produced ONLY by the people who create wealth, not the banks, usurers, stock brokers, scammers, and hustlers. There is no need for these parasites. Everyone thinks that the core of capitalism is some petty bourgeois butcher shop or local health store. Where did they get the money to open the shop? They didn't "save"--a butcher can't save up enough of his salary working for others to open a shop. No, he goes to a bank. Capitalism isn't business and creativity. Capitalism is profiting off workers and scamming money through interest. Banks are a totalitarian closed loop. (The google video "money as debt" explains this well.)

So why did socialism "fail" in the past? For two reasons: (1) Mismanagement by nationalist authoritarians who were paranoid that capitalists would crush their burgeoning society. (2) Capitalists infiltrating and crushing their burgeoning societies.

Socialism cannot exist in one nation. Capitalism is a global system. Socialism must be a global system as well. Socialism is the first step towards any solution--including population growth and sustainability. That doesn't mean we won't have little local butcher shops anymore. It doesn't mean that there will be no PERSONAL property (homes, clothing, cars, etc.) It means that there cannot be the privatization of the means of production: oil, scientific knowledge, factories, infrastructure, must be common property.

Making that happen may or may not be pretty.

[drmeow]

15. The powers that be

have sold the majority of the American people on the belief that "Socialism" means the government will control your life. Unfortunately few Americans actually know what Socialism is. They don't recognize that the New Deal, Social Security, and Medicare/Medicaid were/are essentially socialist programs. They have bought the message that "Socialism" is unjust because it punishes those who work hard and rewards those who slack off. In reality, the majority of Americans, when asked in unbiased ways, support a large number of socialist ideals and actions - such as "the role of government is to provide a safety net" - not to mention their attitude about Social Security. If you read the quotes at the FDR memorial in DC they amazingly Marxist/Socialist - and he was and continues to be a very popular President.

The reasons the powers that be have spent HUGE amounts of money selling the American people this raw deal is because they would lose money and power under socialism. Even before they Russian Revolution (which scared the sh*t out to them), they were blocking unions, the New Deal, ANYTHING that meant they might have to share the HUGE amounts of money they had/have. The minute the first of the New Deal laws were passed, they started strategizing and working toward getting them overturned and beyond. Greed, greed, greed, greed. There is a reason that "love of money is the root of all evil."

[Xipe Totec]

17. Our job is to make the powers that be,

be the powers that were.

[drmeow]

32. Amen to that! eom

[reggie the dog]

70. socialism is liberation from worrying about

losing ones job, capitalism is the horror of losing ones job, house, and family. This is why I dont even live in the USA anymore.

[drmeow]

96. This fundamental difference

is part of the reason why people in the US have so much psychological distress and so many need to be on Prozac or other anti-depressants. It has little to do with biochemical processes in the brain and much to do with stress.

[rug]

16. Not a thing.

[Xipe Totec]

18. Terse is good.

:applause:

[Political Heretic]

19. ...at least its an ethos.

Please... someone get it. :rofl:

[Xipe Totec]

21. Yes, it is funny, isn't it?

Why don't people learn to understant the meaning of words?

:shrug:

[leftstreet]

26. Say what you will...

[Political Heretic]

28. Woo! Made my night.

:)

Mark it zero!!

[Orrex]

24. It interrupts the otherwise unimpeded flow of cash from the poor to the rich

Every objection I've ever heard to it basically amounts to that.

[earth mom]

25. Nothing is wrong with socialism. nt

[LiberalPersona]

27. Nothing at all

But the big capitalism supporters have tied socialism to evil commies in red with guns taking everything you own.

It's pretty ironic since America is pretty much a socialist country at heart, it just isn't completely in practice yet.

[bird gerhl]

29. Americans are what's wrong with socialism

They'd fuck it up, like they fucked everything else up. Socialism should come to the USA the same way it came to East Germany.

[Jack_DeLeon]

30. It puts the benefits for the collective over the rights of the individual

In limited smaller scales among communities it can do some good good, its bad however when you get a centralized government forcing things on individuals.

[reggie the dog]

72. look what they force on us in France

national health care as a RIGHT with no penalty for having a disease
Universities which start at 5 euros per year for the poor
centralized education system which gives all high school diplomas the same weight as everyone takes the same test to have it.
75 percent of my salary in unemployment for as long as I worked before I was unemployed. You work five years, you get five years benefit.
quality public housing
aid for people to buy food
aid for people who do not qualify for unemployment


The federal governemnt forces capitalism on everyone, it fights the war on drugs which tries to force people to use alcohol and tobacco.

Socialism frees you from the worry of losing your job because you get enough aid to keep your family and life in tact. It also sends the messege that all life is worth something, even the lives of poor people. The fed in the USA tells you that if you are poor you deserve your lot in life.

[Vincardog]

83. Having our government owning the corporations and forcing them to work in our interests would be bad

:think: We would not want to force them to have a social conscience would we?

[Greyhound]

97. But that's not socialism, that's a description of the authoritarianism that

so many totalitarian governments calling themselves socialist imposed. The Nazis called themselves socialists, too.

[DFW]

31. Socialism assumes a couple a dubuious things

First, that everyone will work for the common good.

Second, that leadership will always work purely for the benefit of society as a whole.

It has never been so as yet. Maybe some day.

[reggie the dog]

73. I disagree

Socialism in France takes into account that some people do not want to work for the common good, but we oblige them to pay taxes anyway. Also our leaders often work for the benefit of their friends and themselves, so we go on strike.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ohio Joe]

39. Agreed - nt

[bunkerbuster1]

34. Because all those Soviet Socialist Republics had it in its name.

Of course, some Communist nations used "Democratic" in their names as well.

I guess what I'm saying is, America's phobia with what they think of as "socialism" is not based in rationality, but rather in perceived despotic evil.

[krabigirl]

35. Nothing. Americans just confuse it with communism ie China and the old USSR.

I'd love it if we were a democratic socialist republic, like Sweden or something.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

36. It's not a well-defined term. Some things called "Socialism" are bad, others are good.

Maoism was a bad thing.

Free-at-point-of-use state-funded health care is a good thing.

Tony Blair claimed he was a socialist, and Ken Livingstone claimed he wasn't.

The word "socialism" is not uniquely defined - the problem is not that no definition of socialism exists, but that lots of different definitions of socialism exist. So it's not a useful part of political discourse any more.

[reggie the dog]

74. ha ha ha Blair, a socialist

man he is far to the right of French socialists......

[Donald Ian Rankin]

90. By some definitions Blair is a socialist, by some the French socialists aren't.

Blair ran a country with a National Health Service and decent state education, so by the standards of many in the US, he was a socialist.

The French socialists don't support state control of industry, so by the standards of many e.g. Chinese they're not socialists.

And by the standards of many in the West, the communism is different to socialism so the Chinese aren't socialists.

What all this means is that "X socialist" is an entirely meaningless statement.

[jmg257]

37. It counts on every member of the society to do the right thing for the benefit of all.

Those in power. Those who rule. Those with authority. Those who work. Those who can't. Those who need &/or accept help.

Not likely.

[ThomWV]

40. Your argument against socialism rails against things that are not part of socialism

You'll have to do better than that. If you have true socialism the divisions you name don't exist and so can't be its weak points. There are arguments to made against socialism, but they are arguments of degree, not existnace. Think about it.

Hail to the Chief.

[jmg257]

42. Then I would need a better description of socalism, and

not just a tranfer of the means of production out of the private ownership of individuals into the ownership of society...
In which I figure all those divisions would still exist. (rulers, workers, authority, etc.)

[Greyhound]

51. How about this. Democratic Socialism creates and maintains a baseline

for the society as a whole, a floor if you will, below which nobody can sink.

Maslow's Hierarchy of needs establishes and defines these and Socialism provides those that are external to the individual, food, water, air, shelter, and so forth. Modern Socialism adds societal necessities such as health care, education, security of person and property, justice, etc.

Beyond those basics is the realm of what we call capitalism.

[jmg257]

52. Thanks! nt

[FatDave]

55. Damn it, I want self-actualization!

And I think the government should provide it to me!

[bobbolink]

80. Well, FATdave, you can ridicule all you want.... while many of us suffer and die.

Or, you could actually open your mind and educate yourself.

that RW meme has done us.... how much good?

[FatDave]

91. Joke!

Maybe you should educate yourself about Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Because if you understood what that was, you'd see that my response was a joke.

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs

See the diagram? See what's at the top? Self-Actualization. The poster I responded to suggested that the government should provide the bottom levels. Self-actualization, the loftiest level one can attain, is a highly personal thing obtained through experience and introspection. It's not something the government (or anyone else) could ever provide a person.

But if you're going to jump down my throat because you're not smart enough to grasp the context of my joke, by all means tell me to educate myself, because the irony is just fucking priceless.

On edit: And fuck you for highlighting the FAT part of my name.

[bobbolink]

92. You use all that denigration, then expect me to believe what you said was funny?

What the fuck is with all of you who come here to tear others down????????????

[FatDave]

93. Fail.

You jumped my shit. I just jumped back.

[bobbolink]

100. Nowhere have I called you names. Nor have I used terms like "shit" to express

what others are saying.

What in the world you all think you are gaining by denigrating others is waaaay beyond me.

And it was.. what....a short 3 months ago that you wanted everyone to vote for your candidate?

Is this how you go about garnering votes?

edited to say.... I'm guessing that NOTHING I say at this point will open your mind to the fact that putting people down doesn't convert them to anything. So, have at it... show your vindictiveness, and just how powerful that is. Flatten me. Chuck me over a cliff.

Then in a year and a half you can expect me to ...... want to vote for what you think is the "right" course?

Go ahead and make enemies with your attacks. Then criticize people for not voting as you think they should. :crazy:

[bobbolink]

77. DANG! That's what's called a "nutshell". Very good synopsis!

All I would add is "common good".

Yanno, what is needed, I think, is some mass edumacation on this.

We've let the RW get away with this smear for much too long.

Can we drum up some ideas on how to get this basic education through to people?

A half-page ad?

Downloadable clear videos, like the oreo budget?

Town hall meetings?

Ideas?

[Two Americas]

81. it will never happen

A discussion about alternative courses of action will never happen here. Social change is seen as a hobby activity, and as a form of self-expression and the establishment of a personal identity. People are interested in refining and perfecting their personal stances and personal values, and improving their individual lifestyles. That makes any serious commitment to fighting for social change impossible.

[bobbolink]

82. Ok, I give up then.

:shrug:

Let the Neanderthals win. (except the Neanderthals were just decent humans for their times...)

:(

[Two Americas]

85. don't give up

Abandoning an approach that isn't working does not mean giving up.

[Bluerthanblue]

38. it's rarely been really tried?

at least the real concept of socialism-

People are misled by what their perception of the concept really is, I think. Due in large part to propaganda.

Ignorance is -often- not bliss.

[depakid]

41. Israeli kibbutz's are about as close as you'll get

[raccoon]

43. Many Americans don't know what the word really means. They think:

socialism = totalitarianism

communism = totalitarianism

democracy = capitalism

They don't know a state can be both totalitarian and capitalistic.

[LostinVA]

44. I am a Democratic Socialist -- I personally think it's the best and most ethical system

[GreenPartyVoter]

48. Agreed

[FatDave]

56. But it is poorly named.

You'll get nowhere in the US with the word "socialism" anywhere near anything. We need a new name for it. Democratic populism?

[LostinVA]

57. I agree -- and I think that's a good name, myself!

Or... "Compassionate Capitalism."

[JHB]

60. See my sig

I call it "the kind of capitalism that defeated Communism, not the kind that created it."

"Wealth distribution" more through decent pay than "handouts", a strong safety net so that capitalism's "creative destruction" doesn't chop the ordinary working stiff to bits, a system that strengthens the use of "carrots" over "sticks" as employee incentives.

Where the "rat race" hasn't devolved into a pit fight.

[FatDave]

63. "the kind of capitalism that defeated Communism, not the kind that created it."

That, my friend, is brilliantly put. Wow. Spread that around.

[FatDave]

61. Populist Capitalism?

Keeping "capitalism" in there will do a lot to keep people from being frightened. Canada doesn't refer to their system as socialist, do they? I think they just call it capitalism. Maybe the proper term is "sane capitalism".

We should also come up with a nice derogatory name for the no-holds-barred deregulated lord-of-the-flies style of capitalism favored by the extreme right. I sometimes call it Ferengi Capitalism after the greedy alien race in Star Trek. That works among me and my geeky friends, but probably not in a wider audience.

[JHB]

69. Why get geeky?

(and I say that as a world-class Trekkie myself)

There are plenty of ordinary expressions that do the trick:

"Chainsaw capitalism"

"Swindler capitalism"

"a protection racket for the most ruthless"

[FatDave]

79. "chainsaw capitalism" has a nice ring to it. (nt)

[blindpig]

89. Ain't no capitalism that is tolerable.

'Regulated Capitalism', Social Democracy, whatever you want to call it, as long as the capitalists control the means of production they will be in the saddle. Perhaps contrite for a little, they will seize any opportunity to have it all their own way. Profits must be accumulated. That is the final lesson of the New Deal, we're living it.

[reggie the dog]

75. Americans need to grow up and think

and realize that Adam Smith, laissez faire capitalism is NOT GOOD for anyone but the rich.

[guruoo]

45. IMO, socialism (or capitalism), as prescribed, can be a poison or a cure...

it all depends on the dose.

[and-justice-for-all]

46. Nothing...

Socialism is good and works when implemented correctly. I am a socialist.. Repukes and their ilk are to stupid to understand that Socialism is not communism or fascism or even Nazism.

There is a Socialist Party here in the states too..SPUSA.com I think is the address. I had to pass around their definition of Socialism to the stupid repuke pigs at work when that was going around that Obama was a socialist. After that they shut the fuck up, they obvisiously had not idea what the fuck they were talking about, just vomiting up limpball quotes.

It should be like 50/50; 50% Socialism and 50% Capitalism. Even in Germany there are still private health care providers because the NHC is not going to cover everything, which should be expected.

The Europeanisation of America would be a good thing.

[reggie the dog]

76. our national health services

cover everything here in France.

[and-justice-for-all]

99. There must be slight variantions of NHS

If everything is covered, what are the insurance agencies for? do you still have them in France?

[reggie the dog]

101. here is how it works

the hospital is free. Some doctors go over the free limit because they are assholes others do not. Insurance is run by the state and pays back 80 percent of little stuff like doctors visits. For the other 20 percent we have co ops that cover that. I pay 34 a month for the co op and the state health insurance is paid for by my taxes.

[and-justice-for-all]

102. Nice...

I wish the US was not ass backwards.

[chrisa]

49. Some good ideas, some bad ideas.

The government should work for the welfare of the people, but the government shouldn't be so huge that states no longer have a say in anything.
Also, what's best for a city isn't always best for the countryside; and you can't always assume everybody is the same.

[killbotfactory]

50. People don't really understand what socialism is

Or the different schools of thought among socialists/communists over the years.

People think that if the government owns something, it's socialism. This is a very flawed definition.

[leftstreet]

58. People understand things like 'Social Security' and 'Medicare'

'single payer healthcare' etc

Everyone understands the pooled use of resources.

[KittyWampus]

53. As a direction it's fine. As an ultimate goal, it's an extreme.

[Greyhound]

59. Can you explain that statement, please? n/t

[KittyWampus]

65. Communism - Fascism as polar extremes. Socialism and Capitalist as tendencies blended

to certain degrees.

In the USA we have a more Capitalist/Neo-Liberal society and economy though there are some socialist elements (Social Security).

Finland and Sweden more Socialist.

A country whose society was purely Socialist would be Communist in its literal sense.

[Greyhound]

95. OK, thanks for answering.

I think we primarily have a problem of definitions, I'd say you're close. Communism as a theory is the logical end of socialism, but we've never really seen communism practiced on a national scale.

I think Cuba is the closest we've seen to real Communism and considering the opposition they've faced for 50 years, it's doing pretty well. Now we'll have a chance to see how it works without Castro.

[endarkenment]

54. Nothing. Democratic socialism is a good system.

We should move forward with the work started by Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson.

[bobthedrummer]

68. I was born and raised in Milwaukee, we had our third Socialist Mayor at the time of my birth (1949)

until 1960. Frank Zeidler was defeated by a coaltion of Democrats and Republicans that played the race card together against him in the Midwest's most physically racially segregated city.

[anaxarchos]

71. You don't get any...

"Well, Jeeves, now that our capitalism is well and truly fucked, let's try a little of that 'Socialism'..."

Nope.
You don't get any.

You certainly don't get any by repeating 100 year old propaganda points about "mixed capitalism and socialism", yadda, yadda, "nationalize the banks until we give them back", yadda, yadda, "we want that democratic kinda 'socialism'", yadda, yadda...

You have to fight for Socialism...

Principle #1 - There ain't no "we".

[SergeyDovlatov]

78. what definition of socialism are you using?

If it is economic definition, i.e. government owning and / or controlling means of production, then the answer is that under that system you won't use price mechanism to guide allocation of resources to the most socially valuable use.

You end up with wasting the society resource by not capturing correctly the desires of the people,
since you substitute judgement of social planners for actuall hopes and desires of the people.

Now, if you say that you want planners to be directed by democratic means, people voting to express their preference of how reallocate resources, you are very likely to have government captured by special interests which redirect the wealth from the great many people into the pockets of well connected special interests. Bankers, Corporate Welfarism, etc. i haven't seen an example of working democracy which prevents special interests from milking the system at the expense of the many.

[steelmania75]

84. True, capitalism has just given more money to the filthy rich, and left us middle class folk out

[Two Americas]

86. how I see it

What people here do is say that socialism is good, or can be good, or is sort of good. That is like a fashion accessory for people - part of their self-image as an enlightened person.

"Don't get me wrong, I support (insert social justice cause here) BUT (insert conservative argument dressed up in "progressive" clothing here.)"

That is the only way that conservative viewpoints can be successfully advanced in liberal circles - the "don't get me wrong BUT..." line of argument. Once we say that we "support" the right things, then we are free to argue for the opposite point of view.

A recent variation - "don't get me wrong, I support gay rights, BUT (you are angry, you are going about it the wrong way, it isn't a priority right now, it isn't all about you etc.)

Other examples -

"Don't get me wrong, I support socialism, BUT (right now we need to be practical and stabilize the banks or else the economy will collapse and your ATM won't work and people won't be able to get credit and will lose their jobs etc.)"

"Don't get me wrong, I think it is terrible that people are homeless BUT (these things take time, we are doing what we can, we can't solve all of these problems overnight, some poor people don't want help, we have to address mental illness, once we get rid of the Republicans etc.)"

[GeorgeGist]

94. Because then we would have to look back ...

and realize that the core principle that created America was theft of land and its resources from the natives who occupied it for 25000 years.

As President Obama has made clear, he'd rather look forward to reviving capitalism.

[NeedleCast]

98. I think Socialism has a hard time working unless everyone wants to be a Socialist

Good luck with that.

[Lagomorph]

103. Right now there's...

300 million Americans and 90 million taxpayers. The people doing the work have a history of wanting to keep their money for their own benefit.

Just the way it is and has been.

[bridgit]

104. In America? Socialism represents the end of filthy old Mayflower money getting all the breaks