Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence? Dr. Phyllis Chesler

[Captain_Nemo]

http://www.meforum.org/article/2067

Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence?

by Phyllis Chesler
Middle East Quarterly
Spring 2009, pp. 61-69

On February 12, 2009, Muzzammil Hassan informed police that he had beheaded his wife. Hassan had emigrated to the United States 30 years ago and, after a successful banking career, had founded Bridges TV, a Muslim-interest network which aims, according to its website, "to foster a greater understanding among many cultures and diverse populations." Erie County District Attorney Frank A. Sedita III told The Buffalo News that "this is the worst form of domestic violence possible," and Khalid Qazi, president of the Muslim Public Affairs Council of Western New York, told the New York Post that Islam forbids such domestic violence. While Muslim advocacy organizations argue that honor killings are a misnomer stigmatizing Muslims for what is simply domestic violence, a problem that has nothing to do with religion, Phyllis Chesler, who just completed a study of more than 50 instances of North American honor killings, says the evidence suggest otherwise. — The Editors

When a husband murders a wife or daughter in the United States and Canada, too often law enforcement chalks the matter up to domestic violence. Murder is murder; religion is irrelevant. Honor killings are, however, distinct from wife battering and child abuse. Analysis of more than fifty reported honor killings shows they differ significantly from more common domestic violence.<1> The frequent argument made by Muslim advocacy organizations that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam and that it is discriminatory to differentiate between honor killings and domestic violence is wrong.

[leftstreet]

1. We shouldn't even have the term 'domestic violence.'

Assault is assault

[Captain_Nemo]

3. Maybe it is outdated. Feminists created it in 70s to give marital violence against women a name.

Prior to that if a wife was beat up it was just "normal."

[me b zola]

6. Domestic violence is real

...and is bound in the inequalities of the genders. Until there is gender equality, domestic violence is a very real, and deadly thing.

[Captain_Nemo]

10. I meant the term. There seem to be a lot of discussion lately on this. Gender equality will be

when women support other women in order to achieve gender equality in government. From there we can bridge the gender gap.

[me b zola]

12. But the term has a valid and useful place

The term, domestic violence, exists because of the violence committed against women specifically because there is inequality between the genders.

[leftstreet]

14. Hit a family member, hit a neighbor - it's all assault, yes?

Why not just call it that?

[me b zola]

75. Because DV doesn't begin with physical violence

Typical assault is most often the cause of rage. DV is seldom driven by rage, but by a desire to control. DV almost always begins with psychological abuse and progresses to physical abuse. The term, rule of thumb, comes from what was the socially & legally width of a stick a man could beat his wife with, with the explicit goal of controling her. DV is culturally embedded within our customs and norms and must be confronted as such.

[crikkett]

40. Violence within a family is different than violence without

the people (of whatever gender) are intimately involved and it happens behind closed doors.

I think domestic violence should encompass child abuse.

[LiberalEsto]

54. Why is it different?

Have the victims within a family done something to deserve getting injured or killed?

[spoony]

62. Er, I don't think the term, nor the poster, implies that at all. nt

[Quantess]

65. Yes, it is ls largely "bound in the inequalities of the genders", but not completely.

Domestic violence is just as prevalent for same-sex partners as for heteosexuals.

[me b zola]

74. I agree with you on that

And may be even more under reported than with male/female relationships.

[cherokeeprogressive]

52. What about the term "hate crime"?

Although I don't agree, I've seen arguments against this type of legislation using your exact line of reasoning.

[aquart]

2. Honor killings have nothing to do with honor.

Any man who hurts any woman is devoid of honor.

[pampango]

39. I wish I had a heart left to donate to you. Excellent comment. n/t

[Cerridwen]

4. I'll give this a quck K & R as I let the article

digest.

The phrases "simply domestic violence" and "it's just murder" to differentiate "honor killings" from violence and murder are playing havoc with my internal scales.

[canetoad]

5. Then first

we need to define honour. (y'all gotta live with my Brit. spelling, it's how I was brought up).

Dissing, disrespecting...all forms of NOT honouring, but only in immature minds. The taliban grew to power because it appealed to young, single men. They inculcated HONOUR among their young men, but sadly it is not the same honour that you or I would admire.

Until the concept of Honour has been adjusted to align with human rights, there is very little use in debating the terms of reference of crimes committed in It's name.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. "Honor" cultures define "honor" in terms of a family's reputation

so any individual's misbehavior is a smirch on their "honor," as is failure to defend one's self against a threat or insult. A family's "honor" also depends on the women being chaste and obedient and not the subject of gossip. In Western terms, it's actually more "ego" than "honor."

The Taliban recruited many of their soldiers from among boys who had been orphaned during the fight against the Soviets. They raised them in all-male environments, and like the medieval monks of both Christian Europe and Buddhist Japan, they handled the presence of crowds of horny young men by declaring that women were evil temptresses. With only vague memories of living with mothers and sisters, the recruits easily fell for the propaganda.

[Cerridwen]

9. "Y'all" and "honour" in one line.

Okay. I'm laughing at that combination. Southern Brit., y'all? Sorry. I'll stop.

Now, as to your point, I agree. I was trying to get the words to form some sort of coherant thought but I couldn't combine "simply" with "violence" nor "just" with "murder." "Honour" and "killing" hadn't even entered the process yet. That combination has always made my head hurt.

[canetoad]

11. One reply to both Cerridwen & Lydia

as we are all coming from exactly the same place. (Sorry about the y'all, trying to appeal to the natives)

Two part, if not more, problem here:

-This brutality is admired by a small, yet potent, number of the world populace
-The terms in which this kind of news is reported is at the whim of mass media

If I had a choice, I'd say the most practical intervention would be to react against the term 'Honour Killing', until it no longer became acceptable to describe it as thus, but as brutal and often inhumane torture and killing.

I have no idea what to do next, as it would probably involve rearranging the human genome.

[Cerridwen]

16. I believe the article mentions education.

That may be the best solution (as always) though probably the one taking the longest time.

You've managed to break the ideas into more manageable steps than I was able. I was thinking we need a planet-wide paradigm shift. I think rearranging the human genome might be easier. *sigh*

[canetoad]

19. I know, I know

but the problem is not as big as you think. This is originating in Afghanistan, financed by SA, Pakistan, maybe elements in Russia and gawd knows else where.

In the olden days no one gave a fuck what happened in Afghanistan, as long as they kept it to themselves. Now, it looks like they may be needed to co-operate in bringing fossil fuels to the fingertips of the western world.

This is the one and only reason we don't tell Afghanistan to go fuck it's collective self and come back when they are more civilized.

Solution? We all give up our cars, electricity, freezers etc and no longer rely on fossil fues. Forget solar, only the very rich will be able to get on the net and dictate policy on solar.

In simple terms, society, civilization as we know it is fucked. If we returned to pre industrial age lifestyles, we may just, maybe, preserve the planet a bit longer. I know..........

[Art_from_Ark]

27. Don't worry about the "y'all"

It's not strictly American-- The Who used it in their song, My Generation:

"Why don't y'all... f-fade away?!"

Which is what I wish barbaric customs like "honor" killing would do.

[raccoon]

43. I thought he said, "you all." nt

[Art_from_Ark]

77. I guess it depends on the listener

To my ears, it sounds like "why dontch y'all"

[BlancheSplanchnik]

48. I don't know about that--- to my mind, the common denominator

is the lack of respect for the humanity of women.

In what other circumstance would we see the word "simply" modifying "violence", "just (as in "only") used to modify "murder"?

Male violence against females is a worldwide constant stemming from a very unevolved position, that they are human, can be identified with by those dictating/reflecting public behavior, and women aren't, their pain cannot be felt (by the predominantly male arbiters), not really. This viewpoint has crept into all aspects of human interactions. (it would take me too long to list examples of how I see this play out, especially because I see it manifest in so many ways besides the obvious ones, some rather subtle.)

Honor (or as someone pointed out, Ego) killings, and their acceptance and continuation by those in power (almost by definition, male) are a drastic display of this narcissistic worldview.

[rolltideroll]

44. Ignore them

As an Alabamian, I proudly welcome you to the family of people who say y'all.

[me b zola]

7. I don't know about the larger cultural issues...but...

What what Mr Hassan did seems to be classic DV. Americans just turn their heads and pretend it didn't happen when it is an anglo saxon. Or worse yet, we ask what the woman did to deserve it.

[Baikonour]

13. The sanctioned violence against woman in Islam is far beyond "domestic violence."

It should be viewed as a crime against humanity.

To view it as anything less allows this bullshit to exist.

[Chulanowa]

15. It's also sanctioned by Christianity

As well as Hinduism, and several sects of Buddhism, as well as some Jewish communities.

Of course if you want to call it a crime against humanity no matter its origin, I won't argue.

[Baikonour]

17. No, it's origin doesn't exactly matter.

I am against all religions in general. However, you can't tell me that Christianity is more oppressive towards women than Islam. Are both religions violent? Are all religions, to a point, inherently violent? Yes, of course. And in my eyes, religion is detrimental to humanity. However, I believe Islam is especially dangerous, and deserves more scrutiny.

"There are other ideologies with which to expunge the last vapors of reasonableness from a society's discourse, but Islam is undoubtedly one of the best we've got." - Sam Harris

[Chulanowa]

59. No, I can't tell you that. I can tell you it's pretty much at the same level

The difference is, when a Christian husband beats down his wife and shoots her in the face, the news doesn't tell us "Christian murders wife!"

Hell, one can't even really make the claim that Islam is more vocal about it - violent misogyny is preached from the pulpit in Africa, Latin America, and south asia. Excuses for such violence flow freely in America and Europe - "A woman must bow to a man's authority", "Feminism is a sin" "A woman's place..."

[silverojo]

36. But in Islam, it's much, much more violent

As much as I hate fundie wackos, I haven't heard of any fundies beheading their wives lately....

[Chulanowa]

53. Is it?

When a woman is drowning in her own blood and vomit after being savagely beaten, kicked and thrown around by the "man" she was certain loved her, do you think her final thought is "Well, at least he didn't behead me"?

I think you mean that Islam makes for better headlines.

[Quantess]

70. It would be difficult to argue that countries of other religious backgrounds

are equally violent to women as Islamic countries. The mistrust and hatred of women is more deeply ingrained, more systemic, and violence and repression of women is much more socially accepted in the Middle East than here in the west.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Where in the New Testament is that?

[Chulanowa]

51. Well, there's Matthew 5:17, of course

Coupled with all of Paul's misogynistic spew.

'Course, I have yet to meet a Christian that leaves out the old testament. For that matter, I've never seen "Holy Bible (Abridged Version)" sittin on a bookshelf either...

[spoony]

60. Nice to meet you.

And if you've never seen a New Testament presented by itself as a book, I guess you've never been in...a bookstore...

And what a remarkable surprise to see a Bible verse misapplied on DU. Must I really use the sarcasm icon?

[Chulanowa]

63. I'm misapplying it?

Funny, I was going by the assertion by most scholars I've read of, that explain Jesus is speaking of the Old Testament. Funny thing... Jesus talked about the "old Testament" quite a bit. So pretending it doesn't exist is a bit silly. So is claiming hte New Testament is friendly to women.

Tell me does your abridged version leave out Paul, or what? If you're telling me yes, you leave out paul, in addition to leaving out the old testament, well, then good for you. Now how about the other two billion Christians in the world?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. Your argument was that Christianity sanctioned domestic violence.

I'll be glad to look at the verses that do that. Please list them.

David

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

64. I don't even think Paul's crap should be in the Bible

He was an absolute lunatic, and personally, I think a lot of his writings are downright un-Christian.

[Chulanowa]

66. I would agree...

But yet, there he is

I'm not trying to bash Christians here. Or Buddhists, or whoever. I'm simply noting that both in the books and in practice, Muslim abuse of women just isn't that special. It makes great network news headlines, since of course we need to constantly be pumped with reasons to justify our continued killing of Muslims (Including a fair number of women - apparently a beheading by bomb is better than a beheading by knife. Destroy the village to save it, I suppose)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Matthew 5:17 encourages domestic violence?

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

I'm clearly not seeing it.

David

[Quantess]

76. I'm agnostic, raised secular, and I don't even know what the New Testament says, if you must know.

Sorry for putting the wet blanket on your joke.

Religion doesn't sway me. I like to be objective.

[Hanse]

18. Just recently a teenage girl was found dead, and another beaten unconscious...

in an Army barracks in Fort Lewis, Washington.

Yet I'm reading on DU today about how muslims can't be trusted to honor a peace treaty because they do horrible things to women.

:shrug:

[Baikonour]

20. You sure you're reading?

I don't see anything about not being able to honor peace treaties.

[canetoad]

21. hanse

you have done this in other posts and it should be pointed out to you; it is not good logic to compare widely differing events.

I am aware that it may be an emotional reaction, but it really does no good to anyone, or the discussion of this reprehensible practice to quote other wrongs that were done and trying to make some kind of comparison.

For the sake of a cogent discussion on this important topic, can you please refrain from bringing up other, non-associated cruelties?

[Hanse]

22. What would you consider to be an associated cruelty?

[Baikonour]

23. How about this.

Over 5,000 Muslim women died last year from these so-called "honor killings."

Now go find me the statistic of females being beaten on U.S. military bases per year.

:crazy:

[Hanse]

25. There are about 6 million incidents of women getting beaten every year...

in the United States. About 1,000 are killed.

Extrapolate that to the population of Christians in the world, post-industrial and otherwise, I'll have no doubt it's on par with murders of muslim women.

[Baikonour]

28. The point is..

With the beatings of Muslim women, the root cause of it 99% of the time is Islam and religion.

The other beatings of non-Muslim women in America can't simply be extrapolated to one root cause. Alcohol? Psychological issues? Who knows. But when Joe the alcoholic/sociopath/etc beats a woman, it's not because some imaginary man in the sky told him to through a book written thousands of years ago.

[Hanse]

29. Oh please.

Your argument boils down to "when white Americans beat women, we've got good reasons."

The reasons in all cases are the same and irrelevant.

What you're trying to do is scapegoat muslims, half a billion of which are women, and I can't believe you've got the concerns of women in mind.

[Baikonour]

33. Either your reading comprehension is outstandingly low, or you're playing me.

Never did I mention a skin color or that the person committing the violence against women had any good reason to do so whatsoever. Alcohol is just as an invalid excuse as is religion when it comes to beating a female; further, there IS no excuse for it.

However, the fact that a religion of 1.8 billion people promotes the violence against women, or anyone for that matter, is wildly dangerous to society.

And just to be safe, I'm done feeding the trolls. I shouldn't have entertained you to begin with. Your first comment on this thread was incredibly insipid and, well, troll-ish.

[canetoad]

35. Explain the Taliban

Just explain it

[Chulanowa]

61. Easy enough

A collection of largely orphaned young men gathered together and trained for violence - Against first the Russians and later against the other mujehedin. Religion is used to keep them "controlled" and an extreme hatred and fear of women is used to keep those teen-twenties hormones in check.

Same methods used in many other male-only warrior societies, from Christian knights to Buddhist samurai.

Your turn. Explain pre-1978 Afghanistan. A totally Muslim population, living under a liberal social democracy.

[crikkett]

41. are you sure about that?

That's a lot of houses you have to be in at once. Like Santa Claus.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. the root cause is misogyny, and the inability to respect women as they(men) respect themselves

Because worldwide, gender is still imbalanced in favor of men, we will continue to struggle with the problem of male violence against females.

Call it honor killings, call it Islam, blame it on alchohol or sociopathy, the root is a male inability to identify with women, an inability to see what they themselves do.

[canetoad]

24. Anything that is not directly related

to the OP on honour killings.

Please don't fall for the old and silly line of comparing atrocities to make an unassociated point.

[Hanse]

26. The OP is about honor killings and domestic violence.

While I presume the teenage girls were not married to whoever killed them, I think it's reasonable to suppose that they were in some sort of intimate relationship.

[canetoad]

30. You may have a valid point

but you are going the wrong way about making it heard. These comparisons do no one any good and only serve to dilute the message.

If you have something to say, why not create a post and expound on your topic?

[Cerridwen]

32. Please see my post #31.

I vote, let's not play.

Let him talk to himself.

[canetoad]

34. No it is NOT reasonable

Brothers and cousins murdering sisters, nieces.....maybe you call this an 'intimate' relationship. I call it slavery and worse.

You have no fucking right to presume anything that mitigates these cases unless you can post me some good solid paperwork. Until then I respectfully ask you to take you petty prejudices to your own thread.

[Cerridwen]

31. What you are reading is a thread about an article about research

into the idea of and "values" behind "honor killings."

What you appear to be doing (and I have seen you do such in other threads) is attempt to derail a thread with which you apparently have some issue.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. I believe they are murder.

[rolltideroll]

42. Horrible

I have three younger sisters, I guess I love them enough that I find this story especially reprehensible.Discriminatory to treat them as different? Cutting off a woman's head has no place in civilized society. Especially because she wants to exercise her right to pursue happiness. This guy should be charged with civil rights violations,( all domestic abusers should)Murder in the first ( he got a sword and planned the decapitation, premeditation) I am a southern guy, I was always taught that preying on those who are weaker than you are is horrible. Domestic Abusers feed off that feeling of shoving someone around who is weaker. I hate to use this term, because of all it implies, but this "man" is truly a brutal animal, who needs to be removed from society.

[LaydeeBug]

45. It's MURDER. nt

[rolltideroll]

46. Too right,

[kwassa]

47. Other non-muslim cultures have honor killings as well.

Latin America has them but calls them "crimes of passion"

In the US men usually kill themselves after their honor killings of their wives and children.

[Marrah_G]

56. Until the 80's it was legal to kill your wife in some South American countries

Also India has it's own form of Honor killing. I read recently of an entire family slaughtered because their son married a woman above his "caste".

[Deep13]

50. No, it's simply murder. nt

[Marrah_G]

55. Honor Killings are not simply domestic violence.

They are a breed all their own.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. In the U.S. they used to call these "crimes of passion."

Or "justifiable homicide."

In fact, the guy that played Alfalfa was a victim of one.



It's also the same basic motivation by thousands of race-related lynchings throughout the last century. Or even police brutality of minorities. Or the beatings and murders of inmates at Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, etc.

[JVS]

67. I thought Alfalfa died over a $50 debt

"Death
On January 21, 1959, Switzer and his friend Jack Piott arrived allegedly drunk at the home of Moses "Bud" Stiltz in Mission Hills, California, to settle an alleged debt owed to Switzer. Previously, Switzer had borrowed a dog from Stiltz which was lost, but eventually found. Switzer paid the man who returned the dog $35 and bought him $15 worth of drinks from the bar at which he was working. Switzer went to Stiltz's house to collect the money "owed" him. He banged on Stiltz's front door, demanding, "Let me in, or I'll kick in the door." Once Switzer was inside the home he and Stiltz got into an argument. Switzer informed Stiltz that he wanted the money owed him, saying "I want that 50 bucks you owe me now, and I mean now." When Stiltz refused to hand over the money, the two engaged in a physical fight. Piott allegedly struck Stiltz in the head with a glass-domed clock, which caused him to bleed from his left eye. Stiltz retreated to his bedroom and returned holding a .38-caliber revolver, but Switzer immediately grabbed the gun away from him, resulting in a shot being fired that hit the ceiling. Switzer then forced Stiltz into a closet, despite Stiltz having gotten his hands back on the gun. Switzer then allegedly pulled a switchblade knife and screamed, "I'm going to kill you, ." and was attempting to stab him with it, but just as Switzer was about to charge Stiltz, Stiltz raised the gun and shot Switzer in the groin. Switzer died of massive internal bleeding and was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. He was just 31 years old.<3>"

Damn! They ought to make a movie! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Switzer#Death

[LiberalEsto]

58. The entire world's population needs to learn

that women and girls are as valuable and worthy as human beings, and as deserving of love and respect, as anyone else.

Only then would I believe that humanity was civilized.

[marshall]

68. There's a cultural divide in my opinion

Chesler is Jewish--she has an interesting take on Muslum culture, but I suspect many Muslims would take issue with her conclusion.

[dustbunnie]

69. The example in the OP is more than likely one of domestic violence, not honor killing.

Wealthy television station owner in deep financial doodoo finds his stress aggravated by the wife who's had enough of the beatings, kicks his keister out, gets an order of protection. Their last fight is over child custody, then she's dead. If it weren't for the beheading (current middle eastern stereotype) he's done what Americans do every day.

Domestic violence can have any number of motivations behind it. Mental illness, sociopathy, alcoholism, etc.

Honor killings have a more specific motivation - economics. It's usually decided by several members of the family and carried out execution style. The shunned family would incur terrible financial hardships, with other family members losing their business opportunities or the ability to make good marriages. In these societies its impossible to "make it on your own" as it is here.

[ourbluenation]

71. Killing is killing and a spouse killing a spouse is domestic violence. full stop. n/t