Are welfare rolls public records? Should they be? If so, should they be published in newspapers???

[Doctor Venmkan]

**EDIT** - since some people have trouble reading and comprehending an entire post, I DO **NOT** THINK THAT WELFARE ROLLS SHOULD BE PUBLISHED IN NEWSPAPERS!

I ask because of the uproar over two newspapers recently posting online databases of concealed handgun permit owners. And the support that some on BOTH sides of the issue have shown! And also because, well, I don't know the answer to whether or not they ARE public records...

http://press-citizen.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070324/NEWS01/703240313/1079
(the latest one "on the bandwagon.")

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/108899
(The closest link I had handy to the Roanake Times, which had the good sense to remove their list. Might have had something to do with giving out the addresses of molestation and domestic abuse victims in the process of "outing" gun carriers!)

I use welfare as an example because it's also something the government deals in. And as an argument went in favor of publicizing the lists of gun owners "we the people should be able to see ANYTHING the government does!"

Sound fair? I don't exactly think so!

I am totally, 100% opposed to people abusing information they can get thanks to the FOIA in the way these two newspapers have done.

And after considering the harm that can come from the wrong person getting hold of personal information like this, I don't think it's a good idea to make it available to just ANYone at all.

So, if you see no problem with these papers publishing this sensitive information, tell me why they SHOULDN'T publish similar databases giving the names and addresses of people on welfare, Medicaid, getting food stamps, et cetera.

Or, God forbid, why you think they SHOULD...!

[loyalsister]

1. So that the stigma can persist and

welfare queens can be hunted down and shot?

[kiahzero]

2. There's a relevant difference between the two cases

People might have a right to know if someone they associate with has a concealed carry permit, and thus may be carrying a deadly weapon.

[valerief]

3. You mean the massive Corporate Welfare rolls? nt

[sinkingfeeling]

4. The difference is that gun owners' acquired a permit. That's like getting a permit to

build an addition on your house; it's a matter of public record. Welfare rolls and Medicaid and other examples are private. No permits were issued by the government. Your medical and financial information, no matter what class you are in, should be private.

[Doctor Venmkan]

11. You apply for both, the government grants both....

Apart from the "thing(s)" granted, I'm not seeing a difference here.

If we agree that medical and financial information should be private, why not the decision to carry a gun?

Is it anyone's business in the street what kind of condom I use? ;)

[sinkingfeeling]

13. Why should it? Your decision to carry a loaded gun is like having a car on the public

highways. It's licensed and the public has a right to know who a) shot them in the face or b) ran over them in a crosswalk.

[endarkenment]

5. I have trouble with the equivalence.

In general licensing information is public record stuff that anyone can access while welfare, medicaid, food stamps, et cetera. are not licensing/permit matters but rather private personal information that is none of your business.

[Robbien]

6. What, so the thieves know which mailboxes to break into the first of every month?

not a good idea

[gatorboy]

7. So two newspapers abuse information.

?¥?nt to take it out on another group of folks for the hell of it? That's sort of mental.

Why not mention the dozens of other areas of gov't kept secret. I know Cheney's energy policy comes to mind. Now there's something that might interest America.


But nooo...Let's get the welfare folks. That doesn't sound like freedom of information. More like abuse for abuse sake. :eyes:

[Doctor Venmkan]

12. "Not F.O.I. but abuse.." - EXACTLY!

*That's* my point!!!

I am in no way, shape, or form advocating publishing welfare rolls!

But I *am* making you think about what can happen when someone takes the idea "the people have a right to know!" TOO FAR.

[gatorboy]

15. When's the last time a welfare check shot anybody?

Paper cut....maybe....

[Wickerman]

8. Pathetic comparison. Welfare is not public record. n/t

[Doctor Venmkan]

14. Thanks for answering question #1.

Good to know that SOME things are still private in the "information age."

[AllieB]

9. Yeah, let's penalize the poor even more by embarrassing them

:eyes:

You're comparing apples and oranges.

[ComerPerro]

10. the two aren't even close to being in the same realm, its a terrible analogy

[Doctor Venmkan]

16. Is it?

Let's take Susan. Susan is a single mother who's husband Bob left her a few years back. She works hard trying to support herself and her son. But one day, she gets hurt pretty badly at work. Unable to work, she still NEEDS to eat and feed her son, so she applies to the government for welfare. The government agrees and grants benefits to her.

Now, let's say in the midst of all this turmoil, Susan's POS husband comes back into her life, wanting to get to know his son better. But, let's just say that Bob is NOT a good role model for a child, and Susan tells Bob to clean his act up if he wants to get back in their lives.

Enraged, Bob punches Susan to the floor and tells her that if HE can't have the boy, SHE won't be able to have him either...

Since Susan is too poor to afford professional bodyguards, and the police can't be with her 24/7/365.....I'd say she just developed ANOTHER "need." Again, she goes to the proper government agency and applies for, and is granted (in a sane world) a permit to carry a gun to defend herself and her child.

[ComerPerro]

18. wow, that was a psychotic tangent you went off on there

Almost not worth addressing at all, except one aspect...

The money for the gun comes from... where exactly?

[Doctor Venmkan]

22. Fiction? As far as I know. Within the realm of possibility, absolutely....

"Psychotic?" That one eludes me.

Though, you do make a good point about the cost of a gun, and I'll raise you the cost of the class and permit itself.

Though, depending on local laws, it may be legal to loan a non-felon a gun. And some places offer an expedited emergency carry permit for domestic violence victims.

[ComerPerro]

23. do you sit around and fantasize about occasions when you could justifiably murder someone?

[Doctor Venmkan]

25. No. What do *you* sit around and fantasize about?

I just have to wonder, you seem to have a lot of "venom" for me. Is it just because I'm a gun owner, or because I'm a gun owner that thinks that information about who is issued a carry permit, from law enforcement, after a background check - and classes and training in most states...ought to remain private?

If you're so bent out of shape about people lawfully carrying concealed weapons, maybe you ought to lobby to get your state's OPEN-carry laws loosened? :sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

26. I am bent out of shape because you seem to think welfare and concealed carry are one and the same

[Doctor Venmkan]

27. I just think they are the same in that "databases" of people who have either should be PRIVATE.

[Donnachaidh]

21. enjoy your stay on DU

:eyes:

[SoCalDem]

17. Hmmm..

[Donnachaidh]

19. red herring

apples and oranges. And a spiteful one at that. :eyes:

[Doctor Venmkan]

24. It's been established quickly that "stigma" and "robbery" are two DAMN good reasons...

...to keep info such as who is on welfare OUT of "Joe Average's" hands.

Seems pretty logical to me that the same should apply to people with carry permits...?

[Hamlette]

20. the law on releasing "welfare" records

federal law prohibits release of any information on recipients of food stamps except in VERY limited circumstances (police if person is fleeing felon for instance)

For "cash assistance" (aka Temporary Aid for Needy Families, the old AFDC) is left up to the state. In my state, it is against the law to release information on recipients except for the same reasons as food stamps OR for statistical purposes provided you can't learn the identity of any recipient. As far as I know, all (most?) states are the same. I'm in Utah which is very conservative so if we don't give out the info....you'd think other states wouldn't either but it is left up to the state.