"Pig in the Poke"

[H2O Man]

Have you seen the little piggies
Crawling in the dirt
And for all those little piggies
Life is getting worse
Always having dirt to play around in.

Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt
Always have clean shirts to play around in.
-- George Harrison

It seems no coincidence that John Dowd, attorney for Monica Goodling, has said that "one need look no further than the recent circumstances and proceedings involving Lewis Libby" to understand why his client will "take the 5th" and refuse to answer Congress's questions. It seems clear that Mr. Dowd wants to get the same type of immunity that Ari Fleischer insisted upon before he would tell investigators about his role in the Plame scandal.

The question is: would you favor granting her immunity in return for her testimony? I think that there is a good chance that she could implicate both the Attorney General and Karl Rove. I would think it is worth giving serious consideration.

[proud patriot]

1. POETIC EXTINCTION

POETIC EXTINCTION...desperate grasping , barely holding/unexplained convulsions of logic/Lashing out fierce screams of blame/thinking of survival Wailing Flailing/lying dealing death to survive/Screams , Pain , hate, agony , fear oh yes FEAR/Eating one's own, you know that kind of Fear The fear of nightmares/Camouflage it , hide behind it , meta morph it/puffing plumage raising hackles loudly barking changing colors/altering strategies smokescreens of stench/hungry predators, following the trail , searching/weakened hiding running Scared/hoping hoping predators circling/focused dedicated hungry/backed into a corner/Cowering Sniveling Crying ,THE EXTINCTION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY: by Proud Patriot

[H2O Man]

5. Epode of Morrison

"Do you know how pale & wanton thrillful
comes justice on a strange hour
unannounced, unplanned for
like a scaring over-friendly guest you've
brought to bed..."

[proud patriot]

12. and so, it is to be soon

the hour of justice come upon us .

[WiseButAngrySara]

48. ....

Death makes angels of us all
& gives us wings
where we had shoulders
smooth as raven's
claws

No more money, no more fancy dress
This other Kingdom seems by far the best
until its other jaw reveals incest
& loose obedience to a vegetable law

I will not go
Prefer a Feast of Friends
To the Giant family

-- Jim Morrison

[annabanana]

7. Wow! - That's beautiful!

[proud patriot]

10. Thanks

:)

[annabanana]

2. She could have immunity and a comfortable retirement in

the "playground of the rich" of her choosing if she gives us Rove. . . I'll make her breakfast in bed for the rest of her life.

[Catherine Vincent]

3. Yep. When I think of pigs in a poke, I think of Rove. :)

:kick:

[Jackpine Radical]

25. Thinking of Rove made me realize

that a pig in a poke is better than the other way around.

[blogslut]

4. If her info is good

Yes

[Solly Mack]

I feel old now - "Pig in a poke" (Thanks!) lol

Any way to guarantee the substance of any statements she might make before immunity is granted?

[H2O Man]

9. When Mr. Fitzgerald

described his decision to grant Ari immunity, he noted he "bought a pig in a poke."

You ask a valid question: is there any guarantee that she has information of value, and would be honest, if granted immunity? If she had nothing of value to testify to, it would seem that little would be lost in granting immunity. If she lied under oath, it provides an opportunity to prosecute her for perjury.

I found Dowd's comments fascinating -- if she faces risks "even for her most truthful and accurate testimony." He has noted that a "senior Justice Department official had privately told a member of the Senate committee that he was misled by Goodling and others before testifying." It is interesting to speculate on what she may know.

[Solly Mack]

16. I dunno, H20Man...don't forget Iran Contra...limited immunity granted

and then "immunized testimony may have influenced the trial testimony of witnesses"

and we are talking about another Bush

Just saying - immunity could easily bite us in the arse again

[H2O Man]

21. Her testimony

would not be used against her in a criminal trial. But it has other potential.

[Flarney]

6. Can Congress award immunity or would we need a special prosecutor for that? n/t

[Me.]

14. Iran Contra

Provides that answer, which is yes

[H2O Man]

26. See this:

WASHINGTON — As Congress tip-toes into the controversy over the leak of CIA agent Valerie Plame's identity, some lawmakers and analysts worry that the criminal investigation of the matter could be undermined by any congressional grant of immunity from prosecution, as has happened in the past in politically charged investigations.

The cases of key Iran-contra figures Oliver North and John Poindexter underscore their worries: both were prosecuted and convicted by independent counsel Lawrence Walsh, but their convictions were overturned because Congress had granted them immunity in order to compel them to testify in the congressional investigation of the Reagan administration's arms-for-hostages deals.

Walsh, in his final report on the White House brokering arms deals with Iranian terrorists to free American hostages and diverting arms sales profits to anti-government guerrillas in Nicaragua, complained that Congress had "infinitely complicated" his efforts to prosecute North and Poindexter or to force them to testify about the activities of higher-ups in the Reagan administration.


http://www.oxfordpress.com/news/content/shared/news/nation/stories/07/01CIA_LEAK.html

[Me.]

28. Which Is Perhaps One Reason Why Fitzgerald Didn't Want Congress

to do anything until he was done, thanks for the link.

[H2O Man]

30. Exactly right.

He knew the potential difficulty a Congressional investigation could create. It is worth noting that the Plame case and this one are different, and that in this case, Congress is doing the right thing.

[WI_DEM]

8. I thought this was a thread about Cheney winding up in jail.

[rosesaylavee]

36. No, that future H2O Man thread will be titled: Hog in the Jug n/t

:7

[omega minimo]

55. Dick in the Slammer

:spray:

[Old and In the Way]

11. absolutely, but....

1st question I have is: Who's paying his retainer? Is Ms. Goodling got the financial wherewithal to pay these major league legal costs...or is someone else footing the bill?

Depending on that answer, might she trade her reputation for the greater good of the Republican Syndicate? Maybe she will plead the 5th, the alternatives could be less apealling for her (like a witness protection program?).

[H2O Man]

22. I assume that

she has retained a private attorney. Having a White House attorney does not provide the same degree of protection -- which is why both Bush and Cheney hurried to hire attorneys when the Plame investigation came to their door.

[Straight Shooter]

13. I don't know if I favor granting her immunity. She's wrapped up pretty tight.

STATEMENT OF MONICA GOODLING, SPOKESWOMAN FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE FRIDAY, MARCH 26, 2004

"Next week, as trial begins in New York, Nebraska, and California, the Justice Department will work vigorously to defend the law prohibiting partial-birth abortions. The Department will be devoting all resources necessary to defend the bipartisan findings of Congress that this violent practice is unnecessary, as well as painful and cruel to the partially-born child. A bipartisan majority in Congress reached this conclusion after eight years of testimony from respected medical professionals who stated that partial-birth abortion is never medically necessary. As (bush) has said, this law 'will end an abhorrent practice and continue to build a culture of life in America.' The Justice Department will be working hard during these trials to fulfill the goal of (bush) and Congress to protect innocent new life from the practice of partial-birth abortion."

http://editorials.arrivenet.com/government/article.php/81.html

Anyone who can come up with such inflammatory and reckless GOP talking points, taking a position that would inevitably jeopardize the lives of some women, I dunno, seems to me that she ought to get what's coming to her. Is a "fall from grace" sufficient? You know how the GOP works. She will be rewarded, not shunned.

Will it really lead to the downfall of Rove, et al.? If so, yes, it would be worth it. In this case, perhaps the ends would justify the means. In the meantime, she's already sounding very snippy and defensive and should keep a lookout over her shoulder wherever she goes. I'm just sayin' ...

[H2O Man]

23. Very good points.

It seems likely she can expose the Attorney General. Rove is perhaps less likely. Is it worth the gamble? I think good cases can be made either way.

[texpatriot2004]

32. Hasn't the AG already been exposed? Particularly with regard

to the documents released that contradict what he told Congress?

What could she provide about the AG that we don't already know?

[H2O Man]

33. Interesting question.

I agree that he has been exposed. I also think the Libby trial showed how important it is to have plenty of witnesses to testify in a case, even after a fellow has been exposed.

[texpatriot2004]

35. I am sure you are right, the more the merrier when it comes to

witnesses, still, in considering this notion that she would plead the fifth and whether she should be granted immunity, the selfishness, the save your own hide first regardless of the country, regardless of the truth, the justice, etc. screams out at me - it's an obvious observation no doubt - nonetheless, the very idea that she would have no regard for taking the oath and telling the truth, and the fact that none of their ilk do speaks volumes and, to me, is very disturbing. Plead the fifth to avoid the consequences that Scooter the Scapegoat faces. What is the matter with doing the right thing? It's like Barretta said, "if you can't do the time then don't do the crime." Pretty simple eh. And if you break the law, or assist someone in breaking the law, or have knowledge that someone broke the law then why should you get special favors? Especially at the level she is at. I know I am idealistic and unrealistic and lots of other "istics" but I get so angry that people like her and like those in this administration want to preach morals, and values, etc. until it is their own ass in the crack then it is every person for themselves and screw the law, screw the honorable thing, screw justice, screw truth...pathetic.

My perspective is, as usual, that of a layperson; not a legally astute or scholarly perspective but a reasonable one I think.

[H2O Man]

37. The common sense

of a layperson is the one thing this country needs most of all -- more than legal or political scholars' perspectives, more than anything else. If this country is to reclaim its Constitutional democracy, it will come from the common sense of folks at the grass-roots level. And, in this case, a lot of it comes down to that old "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime." Funny how the same people that hold the grass roots in contempt are the ones that didn't learn that lesson!

[mmonk]

15. Yes, I would be inclined to do so.

Otherwise, it will all be tried in the media and radio talk shows where it will be pure speculation and politics without much substance (at least in mind). Of course, I could be wrong. Depends on what info is being gathered.

[H2O Man]

31. It is an interesting

option. I think that things are heating up in Washington DC tonight.

[mmonk]

38. Interesting no matter what decision or turn.

Lots of Maalox on Pennsylvania Avenue.

[Forkboy]

17. You gotta sink pretty low to catch the big fish.

[Me.]

18. Perfect Song For This

So she needs a high powered attorney, a really high powered one?

Another new scandal looming in addition to all the apparent ones, the Doan scandal. How many more of these will we see in the next two years? I bet hundreds, given the nature of these lock-step felons.

[notadmblnd]

19. Make her squeal

if it takes giving her immunity, give it.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

20. As I understand it, Ms. Goodling is DOJ White house Liaison?

H2Oman, I am not a lowyer, obviously, but I have pretty good powers of observation and I got my instincts from a wolf... (wink). I would have to sit down and think long and hard about whether or nay to offer her the "Ari Deal" - (what a great metaphor is "to buy a pig in a poke"!), but I am tempted.

My killer instinct is that giving her immunity in some form could not hurt the case against higher-ups, especially considering that Sampson has offered to spill his guts to the Committee. If her story and Sampson's are coherent an corroborative, they could easily implicate a whole host of potential targets. Why would Sampson cooperate fully, while Goodling clams up? It can only be that she was the conduit for the pressure from the OP (Rover) and the OVP to Justice.

Damn, I remember, Mr. Man, back when you started talking about the war beween Rove and the OVP, but now we apparently have CIA, DOJ, OP. OVP, JCOS, FBI splintering to the waterline by internal strife.

It's like seeing some grandly elegant demonstration of the laws of physics...

[H2O Man]

24. It is a strange set

of circumstances. I've been attempting to read up on it, and have to say I find DU the best source of information. In the past week, it has seemed that there is something large just beneath the surface. I don't know if she holds a key or not. But I'll bet that today's news has more than a few rats looking for cover.

[glitch]

51. "It's like seeing some grandly elegant demonstration of the laws of physics..."

Very well put. Truth will out may very well be a Natural Law. Something the "reality-creators" didn't factor into their formula for domination.

[ms liberty]

27. That's a very good question...

and I agree that it would have to be considered seriously. I think it might well be worth it.

I'm going to read the other replys now, wanted to K&R first; I'm looking forward to seeing what opinions DU'ers have on this!

[lovuian]

29. Pig in a Poke video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmXGolRbt9c

[formercia]

34. Triumph of Death:

[Octafish]

39. No. The Reich has learned how to use their immunity to muff future prosecutions.

It used to be that a person granted immunity would spill their guts and then help lead prosecutors to the bigger fish. During Iran-Contra, the Reich learned how to pretend to cooperate through their limited hang-outs and diversions (sorry pun intended).

Ollie North managed to salute the flag, stand straight and croak out his patriotic shctick. Most of his info was useless for going after Pruneface. He managed to divert ALL attention away from the real center of the action -- vice pretzeldunce George Herbert Walker Bush. Once the dust of "Uh. I can't remember" Reagan's recollections, a puke judge overturned Ollie's convictions for lying to Congress.

No convictions. No sentences. No errors.

[H2O Man]

40. Interesting.

I think that there is a tendency for the public to assume that because a person's name is relatively unknown, that they are minor players. Libby is a good example. She is actually a high-ranking official. I think that is another good reason for not granting immunity.

Would you consider having her prosecuted, and then offering a deal for providing solid evidence against those "above" her a valid option?

[mmonk]

43. I think it depends on what information they already have.

If they have her in a box and she is aware of it, it's possible granting immunity could work.

[Me.]

44. So What's Next?

What's the procedure? Do they cite her for contempt, prosecute, put her in a cell?

[H2O Man]

45. Good question.

I always think that it is worth remembering Mark Felt's "lesson" on how a good prosecutor turns witnesses. While not an exact fir here -- at least yet -- I think it is of value.

[bleever]

49. She's uncomfortable. Her attorney is defensive. She has something.

Interesting that the statement spins it such that it sounds like it's the "environment" in Congress that is at fault, and not someone who may have violated laws.

[glitch]

52. It highlights how little they have for defense. nt

[bleever]

53. So it really is Scooter Redux.

Attention BFEE goats: Yes, after all the crap you've had to ingest, and all the milk and cheese you've produced, they WILL sacrifice you to escape. Hence the derivation of the word "scapegoat".

Look it up, if you doubt me.

[glitch]

54. I can hear the bleating!They must've thought they'd never need a defense. They define Hubris. nt

[bleever]

56. Hubris: blaming the victim.

From wiki:

"In Ancient Greek hubris referred to actions taken in order to shame the victim, thereby making oneself seem superior."

!

[glitch]

57. I never heard that definition before. I thought it was just extra arrogance, taunting the Gods

You know, creating your own reality, that kind of thing. And then getting zetz badly for it. But this definition works for them too, that's for sure. Very interesting.

[Octafish]

60. Go for broke.

Each day that passes, more people die and lives ruined at the hands of the criminal regime. Whatever gets them out of office soonest is best.

The route where We the People first must indict, try and convict Ms. Goodling before we get information from her does at least two big things:

1. It buys time, delaying Justice being served to Bush and his cronies.
2. It may obstruct Justice, through a mistrial, innocent verdict, etc.

Perhaps a grant of immunity would speed trials and justice. A grant of immunity may not be enough to convince Ms. Goodling, 33, to testify.

My friend, Mr. Waterman, I suggest going for the fully monty. Found in Contempt of Congress and a resulting stay in the big house could jar her memory. If it doesn't, let her rot in the pokey until she remembers. Going from the inner nature of these corrupt turds, their self-pity will change their minds faster than the return of an appeal from the 1st U.S. Circuit.

[formercia]

59. It was well known at the CIA

that GHW Bush and Bill Casey were running the op. When the beans started to spill on the mining of the harbors in Nicaragua, Casey panicked and they shifted operations away from the Agency to the covert networks. I know, I was there and right in the middle of it.

[pacalo]

41. Yes, because she's not the one calling the plays in this administration. I want the big fish.

Granting her immunity in return for her cooperation is worth it.

[bleever]

42. It's all about the bigger piggies.

How best to use her to get the people that matter? She herself is a minion.

Squeezing her with an indictment and prosecution would take a long time. I say, give her immunity. Ari's deal worked out for the prosecutor, and I'm guessing Goodling's would too.

[WiseButAngrySara]

46. Oink Oink! For a really funny DU Pig thread see...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x510185

Seriously, some of the comments are hysterical!

:rofl:

[napi21]

47. Whensomeone is offered immunity, is there a way to find out

just what they have to offer BEFORE immunity is offered, or does it have to be done blindly, with the prosecutor/Senator just having to hope for the best?

[Patsy Stone]

50. Considering she hasn't been charged with anything

It would seem to be in her own best interests to testify, and well as being in Congress' best interests to grant that immunity.

It's a win-win situation.

[eleny]

58. Yes - She's the shortest route between the two points

Reward her if what she's gives us is enough to break the pinata wide open so Rove falls out, too.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

61. Kicking, as this needs more discussion.

My first instinct is to grant her immunity, but I could be persuaded otherwise...

[H2O Man]

62. There was once a commercial

that had a fellow saying, "I feel very strongly both ways." I think a good case can be made for granting immunity; likewise, for not granting immunity.

[Oilwellian]

63. And as an encore....

we'll be listening to George Harrison's "Here Comes the Sun." :D

[Spazito]

64. I think it very much depends on what information Congress

already has and, imo, they have plenty that is not public as yet. There is an aura of certainty emanating from Leahy, Schumer, Conyers, etc, that leads me to believe they have at least one inside source, probably more than one, who has given them plenty of evidence of wrongdoing.

It also depends on whether Congress already has evidence of wrongdoing by Ms. Goodling, evidence which points to whether Ms. Goodling played a key part in the whole scandal or was, by and large, a "bit player".

If a "bit player", offering immunity is certainly an option but if she is a key player in all of this then other "persuasions" could come into play that would influence whether she would, indeed, testify instead of "taking the 5th".

There is no doubt, imo, there is a VERY delicate dance taking place behind the scene and would that I could be a "fly on the wall" in the various "ballrooms" where the dances are taking place.