There is a lot of hate here on DU

[Raven]

and if it's not hate, it's frustration and immaturity combined. It would be wonderful to think that DU has attained some credibility after, what? six years in existence. I was here in the early days when everyone was feeling their way along. We should have matured by now and I fear we haven't. Here are some of the things I see that make me sad for this website:

- There are certain sacred cows and there can be no criticism of them.

- There are certain demons and the venom spewed on this site against them is incredible

- There is a general acceptance of obscenities and I have always felt that using them was a substitute for thoughtful comment

- If you happen to have an opinion that is not "mainstream" here, you can expect not to be able to engage in any sort of a meaningful dialogue. You can expect to be shouted down or flamed or both.

- There are "flame" threads here that are allowed to go on much longer than they should...they take on a life of their own and contribute nothing to rational discourse.

It would be wonderful if DU was viewed as a Democratic/Progressive site where people could go for a balanced debate and good information but I'm afraid that it is becoming a "rant" site.

One final thought, which is a pet peeve of mine: There are many people here who rant the loudest and call people the vilest names who have never participated in democracy "on the ground". They have no clue on how to get the vote out or how to educate their communities. They sit behind the anonomity of the computer and spew and spew and spew. I haven't figured out if they are in the majority yet but when they are this website will just be another...whatever.

[Lex]

1. In the final analysis, though, participation here is entirely voluntary.

Like any place else, it has its good and bad points, but overall the good outweighs the bad, imho.

[uppityperson]

2. agreed, a lot of love also

edited to add the remainder of my subject line since I missed it before.

[Robson]

3. Hate is a very intense and subjective verb.

I like disagree. I like resent. I like oppose. I like dislike.

I don't like hate and I don't like group think.

[Raven]

5. exactly my point. n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. I use "naughty words" sparingly, but I do use them.

When I use them, I do so consciously and and to clearly enumerate a point. I will continue to use them as necessary.

Sometimes, you just have to let it fly.

[Subdivisions]

8. I also use them for special emphasis. I have gone back in the

post preview stage and taken out or changed overly-gratuitous use of "four letter words" but you will see me use them where I need there strength.

[Forkboy]

17. I just type how I speak.

I actually rarely use them like you do. :)

[Lars39]

6. I firmly believe that there are people here whose main goal is turn DU

more conservative.
Consistent troll-like behavior used to earn you the granite, now it disappears into a deleted sub-thread.

[Codeine]

40. Conversly

there seems to be a group of people who have confused "Democratic" Underground for "Bolivaran Revolutionary Socialist" Underground, or "Castro Apologist" Underground, neither of which seem to be consistent with the original purpose of the site.

[MistressOverdone]

7. It can get kind of frustrating, can't it?

But hey, with this number of folks we're going to have our share of idiots and our share of wisemen (and women.)

I have really learned to use the ignore feature successfully. And here's the funny thing. The way I did it was to consciously keep the ignore trigger finger warmed up for a couple of weeks. If I thought a person was vile, kneejerk, juvenile, etc., I put them on ignore immediately. I have about 20 persons on the list, and the interesting thing is that when I see one "ignored" in a thread I usually see at least six or seven, all talking with one another! So to me, it is indicative that these folks run in packs, and you know that does make me wonder whether they are actually dems, or trolls who are very good at disrupting.

Anyway, having those "ignored" come up now and then has really make my DU a very positive experience. I get to discuss with civility.

[Forkboy]

9. I've been here awhile and I don't think it's all that different...just MORE.

More good,more bad. There's way to sift out what you don't like and find what you do,and there's still a lot of great stuff here.Look at all the subforums,where's there isn't a fraction of the friction (heh) that there is in GD and GDPolitics.

And also,there's just a lot more hate out there right now.I sense it just going out of the house.It's not surprising to see that anger,frustration,and even outright hate reflected on a site that has had over 100,000 people sign up through those six years.There was just over 2,000 when I signed up,but it still seems relatively the same to me as it did then.

Your points are still valid.I'm guilty of a least a couple myself (especially the obscenties part) but they were valid when I got here five years ago too. :shrug:

[Faux pas]

10. I agree with a lot of what you've stated. No place is perfect, no

denying that. If you want to really gag and puke over a really bad example of an "open" (no moderators or control at all) check this place out:
http://boards.myway.com/jsp/boardview.jsp?bid=180

After fighting the good fight to no avail there, DU is really a haven. I try to skip over the raving flamers here and stick with the stuff that doesn't cause too much upheaval among the natives.

Giving this a K & R because you have put a lot of thought into this.


PS-I've been known to rant some. People here either agree with the rants or not, their choice. Just like it's my choice to post it.

[Robson]

30. My preferences.

Actually I really like a site that is a political free for all without censorship as long as it doesn't allow spam and porn. I don't want a site that only mirrors back what I post.

[trumad]

11. I hate trolls...

especially those who fly under the radar.

Otherwise, I love you all.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. What gets me

isn't so much the hate or flame wars or vile language--its the hijacking of threads. A poster starts out wanting to discuss, say, an aspect of the campaign of Candidate X. That seems to bring out people who can't stand Candidate X and have to comment on their dislike--and the point of the thread gets lost. This happens in other, non-political sections of DU, especially in the Religion/Theology section, which at times appears to be more about atheists than theists.

I do enjoy the DU Groups, because they are safe havens for people of like minds on anything from astrology to crafts to TV shows. Sad thing is when folks don't feel they can safely post on the more general discussion boards without fear of ridicule or flames.

[Lance_Boyle]

35. Free Mumia!

Oh, wait...

:P

[DemBones DemBones]

49. Totally agree with you, there is too much thread hijacking.

The Religion/Theology Forum should be renamed the Attack Religion Forum since it is impossible to discuss any religion or theology there without having the thread hijacked, the intelligence of theists questioned, etc.

[WI_DEM]

13. you make some good points about more tolerance of many different views on DU

[byronius]

14. I seem to miss out on all the super-hate threads.

I hear about them, and sometimes read lamenting posts like yours, but the threads I read are generally good-natured, funny, and very often enlightening.

For hard news, you can't get this kind of speed and vetting anywhere else. I'm serious. I find that I know everything first, before anyone else, and if it's in the LBN, it's rock-solid if it's over an hour old. It gives me Power.

I like the give-and-take I see. I usually don't bother with flame wars, although sometimes I learn more from the reaction than I do from the post. It doesn't frustrate me, or darken my perception of DU, though. There's just nothing like it anywhere else. I have to sort a little, that's all.

Still, I always seem to miss out on all the rancor everyone complains about. I just don't see it. Maybe I read DU differently or something. It helps that I generally skip opinion threads about primaries, except for Pro-Gore threads, in which I wallow in My Little Dream.

Ahhh. The Restored United States. Sorry...just driftin' off, there...

[blondie58]

22. I'm with you byronius

Yeah, I have missed the hateful threads, also.

Now, personally I have a couple of thread that I have started that were responded to in a very argumentative fashion and I tried not to take it personally. I am a true Libran, to the core and do not like confrontation. But, I have come to realize that some people really welcome, yes even encourage sparring and I think that it is just different types of folk.

In the words of Rodney King "can't we all just get along?" Can't we just agree to disagree?

[TZ]

44. If you want some good examples of the bad threads

look at some of the stuff in health sometime. I can't even visit anymore. Too distressing.

[blondeatlast]

46. Me too. Maybe we need to start PMing each other when we spot 'em.

Or not. :shrug:

[Gabi Hayes]

15. I really hate threads like this

hatah

[mmonk]

18. .

[Gabi Hayes]

36. love that thingy! where in Raleigh do you live? one of my best

friends teaches at Wake Tech

[TahitiNut]

16. Those Valentines wore off rather quickly this year.

Some just can't seem to disagree without making it personal. If someone's in favor of LEGAL immigration and against illegal aliens (not 'immigrants') then they're a racist. If someone uses the word "pussy" they're sexist but someone who uses the word "prick" or "dickhead" isn't. If someone smokes tobacco they deserve to die but if they drink alcohol they're just good company, not a drunk. If someone supports a comprehensive draft or universal military/national service they're promoting slavery, including Charlie Rangel. Anyone in the military in Iraq (or Viet Nam) is (was) a war criminal. And on and on and on.

Whenever I read a reply in which the subject of most or all sentences is "you," I tend to read it as personal. I'm funny that way.

[Odin2005]

43. I swear some people are just psycologically incapable from seeing things in an impersonal manner.

Various personality psychologists talk about "thinking" (logical, impersonal) and "feeling" (value-based, personal) personality types.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MBTI

Thinking and Feeling are the decision making (judging) calculus functions. They both strive to make rational choices, using the data received from their perceiving functions, above. Thinking people tend to base their decisions on logic "true or false, if-then" connections and on objective analysis of cause and effect. Feeling people tend to base their decisions primarily on values and on subjective evaluation of person centered concerns. Feelings use "more or less, better-worse" evaluations. It could be said that thinkers decide with their heads, while feelers decide with their hearts. When Thinking or Feeling is extraverted, decisions tend to rely on external sources and the generally accepted rules and procedures. When introverted, Thinking and Feeling decisions tend to be subjective, relying on internally generated ideas for logical organization and evaluation.

[DemBones DemBones]

52. I've always wondered why anyone would say

"Don't take this personally" to a PERSON.

And I'm a "Thinker" on the Meyers-Briggs test so I do base my decisions on logic. But I still have feelings because I'm a person. Anyone without feelings is a sociopath.

[TahitiNut]

57. I tend to get 50/50 on the F-P specturm ... very balanced. (ENxP)

I suspect it has something to do with the 'E' ... inclining one to make reference to an externality and not some personal attribution. The 'F' in me probably amplifies my reactivity to the snark and intensely personal nature of such responses ... but it also gives me the appreciation to stay away from such a direction as a 'first' resort.

[Faygo Kid]

19. Can you cite some examples? This is a Katie Couric-like analysis: "Some people?"

"Certain demons?" "Certain sacred cows?" How about some specificity?

[Raven]

26. Don't want to be like Katie!

By sacred cows I was meaning... just about any democrat...for example, if I had an opposite opinion from or a criticism of Russ Feingold (can't imagine that!) I'd get bombed. Demons to me are any republicans, any no matter what they migh have to say.

And speaking of Katie...Jesus, I watched that last night and while she was bad, today on DU you would think she was a baby killer (someone out there is bound to say she is, just wait). The Edwards did fine. I posted observing that he talked too much and I didn't get to hear enough from her and you would have thought I was the baby killer...go figure!

[MazeRat7]

20. Yup... I think that sums it up nicely.

and I predict it will get worse before it get better...

MZr7

[Gregorian]

21. And here I was hoping for "disruptor" amnesty.

Really. I thought some of the so-called disruptors were the best people on the forum.

But I think you are posting about something fairly unrelated to that. I just didn't want to start a new thread on the subject.

Honestly, I think there are very few people who are super contributors. I speak for myself when I say that some just hang out at the Greatest page, like leaches, and latch on to the threads as they go by. I LOVE a bandwagon.

All in all, I think DU is a place to be proud of. Christians and atheists, et al, all hanging out in relative unison.

It's good to stay aware of laziness. Keep the bar high. But we all have emotions. Me especially. Logic is sometimes hard to find.

[Rex]

23. Lot of hate, lot of love, a pinch of insanity and a sprinkle of common sense.

Lot of emotion and passion on this site. Some malice. Lots of gloom and doom and fascination with the latest fad headline. A very healthy site IMO.

[jesus_of_suburbia]

24. You are correct...

Although this is a much nicer place than the Republican counterpart, it can still be nasty.


There are many people here who have been hurt and carry chips on their shoulders. It is sad to see, but of course it will be that way on any forum of this size.


The sad part is that there ARE sacred cows that can't be discussed on this board without being flamed.


We are Democrats. We should know better.

[DancingBear]

25. It has become a gatekeeper site

That it why so many of us have, for all intents and purposes, left.

[bryant69]

33. What do you mean by Gatekeeper site; i'm not familiar with that term

Thank you

Bryant

[CatWoman]

27. I remember you scolding me for posting "naughty" pictures!!

:hi:

:)

[Raven]

28. Nooooo! Never!

I didn't! Will made me do it. Love ya.:-)

[sendero]

29. It's a message board..

.... the only ones that are better are the ones that are "heavily moderated" to the point where only a particular point of view is permitted. Or are they (better)?

[Madspirit]

31. I think

I think there is a lot of fighting here because Democrats come in every type. There are people here I consider no different and not much less conservative than a lot of Republicans.

Conversely, they consider me an idiot and a kook. That doesn't leave a lot of room for constructive or compassionate discourse.
Lee

[Bridget Burke]

32. Yes, we have too many angry, flame threads....

Like this one.

[bryant69]

34. It's the human condition

It's certainly no worse and, in my opinion, considerably better than other sites of it's kind.

Bryant

[Sapere aude]

37. Learn to ignore the threads you don't like and find education in the ones you do like.

It's kind of like pissing in the wind when you read things that upset you.

[Oilwellian]

55. Pissing in the wind....perfect

What was that saying about Democrats and herding cats? :D

[Ganja Ninja]

38. So much hate so little time.

Type faster! :grr:

[TZ]

39. differing viewpoints are fine

but posting things that aren't accurate or only half accurate or manipulating numbers to fit a theory as well as cutting and pasting disparate sentences to make something appear to say something it does not is just wrong and it happens far too frequently here. There is a difference between a true disagreement and pushing an agenda. And it does tend to make those of us who see it mad sometimes.

[cwydro]

41. Well said.

I particularly find the name-callers offensive. They seem to be completely unaware how ignorant that behavior makes them look.

[Horse with no Name]

42. I think it is just the aspect of the big tent

and part of the aspect of saying something then someone interpreting what you said into something that is 180 degrees opposite.
Then, while trying to explain, you step in mine fields all along the way because face it, someone will ALWAYS be offended by something you type.
It is a hazard of every blog/message board out there.
Just this morning, someone asked a question. I answered it. Before it was over, because of my knowledge of the subject, I was accused of being what they hated--when in reality, I am polar opposite.
I lean VERYYYY left. My opinions on most subjects come from that perspective. I notice we have MANY of what I consider "Rw'ers" that consider themselves moderates or centrists. Most of what I say offends them, and vice versa.
To reach the Utopia that you request, this wouldn't be "democraticunderground"...it would be "populist underground" or "centrist underground", etc.
In my length of time here, I think I have come to recognize the difference between an agenda and an opinion.

[merh]

45. I do appreciate the last paragraph, more than you can know.

One final thought, which is a pet peeve of mine: There are many people here who rant the loudest and call people the vilest names who have never participated in democracy "on the ground". They have no clue on how to get the vote out or how to educate their communities. They sit behind the anonomity of the computer and spew and spew and spew. I haven't figured out if they are in the majority yet but when they are this website will just be another...whatever.

If only they actually had some clue as to how things work, some practical experience.

[jmg257]

47. Personally I am surprised at the de-humanization that goes on.

This past weekend I read "Flyboys", a HUGE portion of which is about the dehumanizing nature of war, especially with regards to the "superior" hypocrisy of "Christian Whites" and the "superior" Japanese Race. It is INCREDIBLE what people will do when they can view the opposition as "less then human"...stuff that wants to make you puke. {i.e. 30 MILLION Chinese murdered, raped and sometimes eaten, Million+ Japanese civilians burned, straffed, etc.}

Well, to come here and see the repubs and others referred to in somewhat similiar sub-human terms is a bit...scary I guess. {lottery winners called vermin, sheep and monkeys used as comparisons}. NO doubt the same thing happens on their side too, in reference to Democrats and liberals, and Gays and races (racism). "Hate" is a funny thing that works both ways, and if allowed to go unbridled it WILL lead to a much more serious problem in this country then some political showdown - I am starting to think alot of people will die. We certainly do not have to agree with them, we certainly can dispise, and even hate some of them for what they have done, the lives ruined etc., but to spread that hate around unendingly without bounds, to make them less then human - without pause to really SEE what we are doing - its a bit sickening.


I don't want to blow it out of proportion, because I am new here, and especially because I may be a bit sensitive about it now (HELL of an eye opener that book) - I wasn't much at all, till I read for myself how such...views of the opposition can be used for such evil.

[blondeatlast]

48. DU=neighborhood bar. We all have something grand in common--

we want a better world. We're also largely smarter, more passionate, and perhaps more easily frustrated than the average person that it seems so close yet beyond reach.

Shun the hate, jump in with the respectful disagreement, and oh, yeah, I'm buying. :toast:

[tjwash]

50. It's the price of success.

Back when there were 30000-40000 members here, is one thing, but now that DU has gotten over 100000 there are bound to be a proportionately higher number of kooks, trolls, and people that just say dumb things because they can.

[dkofos]

51. Blah, blah, blah

[chaska]

53. Seconding.

[Jonathan50]

54. I have a littlle bit different take on things here..

I cut my online political teeth on usenet's political newsgroups, they make anything here or at Red State or Free Republic look like a Sunday afternoon church social.

I never get upset at what I read on a computer monitor. I don't really know why that is, but that's the way I react.

This seems like a really good website in many ways although it is a bit "mild" for my taste. I don't want to see more "potty mouth" since I find that demeaning and indicative of a not particularly well thought out position.

I would like to see more challenging of accepted shibboleths. Progress cannot happen until you unlearn that which is not true, only then can you start to learn the truth.

My tagline says what I believe.

[DemBones DemBones]

56. I think the main change is that DU got bigger

which naturally means there are more people who hijack threads, name call, etc. As I remember 2001 and 2002, there were more serious, lengthy discussions but there were also ugly threads designed to hurt people and small packs of people who deliberately provoked others, trying to get them banned. Lots of the posters from those days don't post anymore. (I was reading only in 2001, started posting in 2002, but I've been reading since shortly after DU began.)