Firefighters in gay pride parade were sexually harassed, jury says

[babsbunny]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-firefighters-gay-pride19-2009feb19,0,4356547.story

The four men sued the city after being ordered to drive a fire truck in the parade. The jury awards them $34,300 in damages.
By Tony Perry
February 19, 2009
Reporting from San Diego -- A Superior Court jury Tuesday found that four male firefighters were sexually harassed while driving a fire truck in the 2007 gay pride parade and were entitled to a combined $34,300 in damages from the city.

The four sued the city because they were ordered to drive the truck in the 90-minute parade even though firefighters in previous gay-pride parades had reported being taunted with sexual innuendoes.

The jury ruled that each of the four should receive $5,000. One should receive an additional $14,200 because he felt compelled to transfer to a different fire station after the incident, and another will receive $100 as reimbursement for a co-pay for a counseling session.

[Stevenmarc]

1. Oh Mary, man up....jeeeeeezz

[pnwmom]

7. That's kind of a sexist response, actually.

Would you tell a woman who was sexually harassed to "man up"?

I think the people who do the harassing are the ones who need to change, not the other way around.

[Stevenmarc]

69. Oh please

These are people the run into burning buildings for a living and a little ride on a firetruck sends them spinning into therapy, give me a break.

[NeedleCast]

86. So manly men can't be sexually harassed?

That seems like a solid, progressive point of view...

[pnwmom]

98. So women who work in hard, physical jobs shouldn't be able to make

sexual harassment claims either?

[Stevenmarc]

118. Nonsense

Of course they can, if it actually is sexual harassment, and that's my point I highly doubt what happened on the parade route actually constituted harassment. I've been to more than a few gay pride parades in my life and never saw anything that came close to sexual harassment of either police or fire personnel in any one of them. I think if you actually read the OP, or shall I say read between the lines of the OP you might have a problem with the case. If there was any sexual harassment it happened in the firehouse after the parade not during it or why would one of them feel compelled to change their firehouse? This lawsuit is all about the internal affairs of the fire department and what a fire personnel can be ordered to do but instead of suing who they needed to sue and get a department reputation they decided to scapegoat the gays, it's a legally elegant solution.

[pnwmom]

138. Who are you saying they should have sued? They sued the city who is

their employer because their employer required them to participate in a parade that wasn't part of their job description.

Who should they have sued instead?

[Stevenmarc]

154. Fire Chief Tracy Jarman

on the policy issue. Using sexual harassment as a legal strategy to force a policy change that has nothing to do with sexual harassment doesn't help the cause for people that have legitimate claims.

[pnwmom]

160. I doubt that they could have sued her personally, since she acted in the

performance of her city job.

[Stevenmarc]

173. And how do you think a case on departmental policy

would have played out without the harassment strategy.

[pnwmom]

194. I have no idea. But I don't think city employees should be required to perform

tasks that aren't part of their job descriptions.

[Stevenmarc]

204. I don't think anyone does

but quite frankly you should be a lot more annoyed with people that gin up a legitimate complaint with a claim of sexual harassment considering your history.

[pnwmom]

210. I'm not sure what you're saying. n/t

[Stevenmarc]

218. I'm sure you are

but if you want to avoid the obvious, be my guest.

[pnwmom]

219. Why can't you just explain? I'm not sure whether

you're referring to my history of being sexually harassed, or the fact that I have a gay father.

[Stevenmarc]

227. Considering

no where in this particular thread, between you and me, was there a discussion of your father, only sexual harassment, it should have been clear, but then I might be expecting too much. Anyway, I have not been sexually harassed and I'm seriously pissed off that this has been used simply as a legal strategy and that the gay community was scapegoated purely to deal with an internal fire department issue.

It diminishes your cause to have sexual harassment used this way and as a person that has experienced it, as you have, I'm just surprised that you aren't just a tad pissed off with the plaintiffs.

[pnwmom]

233. I didn't know how many of the responses to the OP you have read,

but another poster brought up my father, so I honestly didn't know what you were getting at.

I'm not sure how this case would weaken awareness of sexual harassment. Perhaps men like these fire fighters will better understand the point of view of women who've been harassed, now that they feel they've been subject to it themselves.

Or maybe you're right and that IS expecting too much of them.

[donco6]

253. But they weren't subjected to it.

The whole thing was a total farce. It was obviously trumped up to a) embarrass the female chief, whom they despised; b) to try to extort money from the city, and c) provide a platform for their right-wing fundie Christian whackadoodleness.

Fortunately, though the jury found in their "favor", the jury also recognized the extent of their "damage" was far less than the cost of their attorney fees. Too bad.

It demeans the suffering of real harassment.

[Vanje]

278. PR isnt part of the job?

I'll bet it is.
Education, PR , and neighborhood outreach is a huge part of the job.
Dont fire fighters go to 100s of schools schools to teach "stop drop, and roll"?

I spent a couple of summers as a wildlands frie fighter.
We were expected to do parades, and school visits. We were paid to be on duty , even if there was no fire. Sometimes we had to actually to something to earn our idling wages.
Do you ever wonder who it is dressed in that smokey Bear suit?
It used to be me!

[aikoaiko]

2. That was stupid to order the firefighters to drive the truck in any parade

Volunteers, extra pay incentives are a better way to go.

[pnwmom]

3. If female firefighters had been ordered to drive in a parade, even though

parading is not a part of their job description, and even though they had been subject to sexual harassment in parades in previous years, then I think they should have been able to receive compensation.

So it makes sense that male firefighters would receive compensation in the same circumstances.

I think the fire department was correct in changing their policy to make parade participation voluntary.

[cboy4]

12. How do you know what's part of a firefighter's job

description in every municipality?

Firefighters are representative in practically every kind of parade where I live from Christmas to Memorial Day to 4th of July to Gay Pride to Veterans Day to Thanksgiving.

Usually the firefighters -- at least here -- are reservists.

But the point being, if you're going to be a cop or firefighter, it's not uncommon to be out in the community, taking part in holiday parades.

I can tell you one thing .. if the San Diego Fire Department is representative in every parade but the one associated with teh gays, they're going to be in hot water again.

Watch.

[pnwmom]

16. From what I heard, in this particular municipality -- which is the only one

that matters in this case -- it was not part of the job description.

On the other hand, I think that it would be a good idea for every city to make participation in any parade voluntary, and if need be, to pay volunteers overtime for participating. I'm sure they'd have plenty of volunteers on that basis.

As far as harassment is concerned, I don't think gay people should participate in it or defend it. It certainly doesn't do anything to promote gay rights.

[cboy4]

27. ...

:wtf:

You don't think gay people should be pissed off about this?

You're out of your mind.

No offense of course.

[pnwmom]

31. You think that there should be different standards for sexual harassment

for gays and straights?

[Vanje]

48. Thank goodness

Thank goodness gay people have you to let them know what they should participate in or defend.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

82. Well, she's the expert on it

Since her father's gay, she can tell us what we should all be thinking.

[donco6]

85. She even knows the employee policies of the SD Fire Dept.

She's one amazing woman.

[pnwmom]

102. I've been subject to sexual harassment, so I know what that feels like.

Both as a young woman just trying to walk in my town, and in my workplace.

And I don't think anyone -- gay or straight -- should be defending it.

Harassers shouldn't get a pass because they're gay.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

168. Yeah, so have I...I'm young, hot and a lesbian

I've taken all sorts of abuse, but I think these firemen really just didn't want to march in the fag parade.

I've been to NYC pride and most cops there are cool. Some obviously have issues with it. These are probably the firemen equivalent of it.

[pnwmom]

208. The first time it happened to me I was walking in my town

the three blocks to where I was going to babysit.

A bunch of men from a home construction site surrounded me on the sidewalk and started following me, making noises at me and saying things that made no sense. I finally got through them and away from them.

I was only 12.

Back in those days, twelve year olds dressed like kids. I was not hot -- at least in my mind -- or sophisticated, but I was already as tall as my mother, so I probably looked older.

After that I crossed the street or turned around or took a long detour if I saw the potential for a situation like that, but I couldn't walk to downtown without having several guys hanging out of their trucks, hollering or honking at me. Could they have thought I liked it? Or were they just creeps?

It doesn't happen to me anymore, decades later, and I've been wondering if it was less of a problem for young women these days. I'm sorry to hear that women like you still go through this kind of garbage.

Edit to add: I know that harassment still goes on in the workplace, too, especially in male dominated fields. I'd have thought that by now things would have improved more than they have.

[mitchtv]

255. being forced overtime is not sexual harassment

The city cannot be responsible for citizens openly drooling at the firefighters or even commenting , which I expect is the worst that happened. They should be paid Holiday pay.

[Vanje]

113. And

she knows 3 gay men. THREE!

[pnwmom]

146. I said those were the gay men I'm closest to. I was distinguishing between

close relationships, and other friends and acquaintances.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

171. Wow

That's amazing. If that doesn't make her an expert, I don't know what does!

[pnwmom]

216. When did I say I was an expert?

I said in another thread on why gay men appear to be so heavily concentrated in creative fields, that the three gay men I happen to be closest to are a corporate manager, a teacher, and a physicist. I didn't say that these were the only gay people I know, or that I was an expert on gay men. I just disagreed with the stereotype that gay men were more likely to work in fashion or theater. Do you disagree?

[Vanje]

279. The 3 gay men I'm closest to are:

A sheep rancher, another sheep rancher, and a guy who raises sheep.

It says a whole lot more abot the what I spend my time with than than what th avergae American gay man does.

[donco6]

254. She's the expertiest expert there ever wuz!

Because because because because beCAUUUUUUSE!

[QC]

268. Oh my! She's practically got a Ph.D. in gaeity then! n/t

[pnwmom]

105. You think that sexual harassment is okay for anyone?

Or okay for gays but not for straights?

I think it's wrong for gay people or any people to sexually harass or to defend others who do so.

[Two Americas]

262. no one is making that claim

No one has claimed that it is OK to harass anyone, and no one has defended sexual harassment.

What is not OK is falsely and maliciously suggesting that those who disagree with you are doing that.

[donco6]

15. I've seen fire trucks in every parade I've ever attended.

So they don't have to show their support to the gay community?

[bbinacan]

20. Not if they're harassed. n/t

[Maat]

4. This ol' lady was there with PFLAG (Parents, Family, Friends of Gays and Lesbians) ..

and thinks that this is a crock, and that they don't deserve a dime.

I was a few vehicles/organizations behind them, and I didn't see anything grossly inappropriate.

I do agree, however, that the new policy has to be volunteers only.

[pnwmom]

5. Being a few organizations behind them, how do you know you would have seen?

[foxfeet]

77. And yet, at the other end of the Pacific Coast, you seem to know with absolute certainty

exactly what the behaviors described as harassment were. I agree, BTW, that participation in any parade should be voluntary and not ordered.

[pnwmom]

106. I don't know and I haven't claimed to. All anyone can know is what has been reported in

various articles and news programs.

[Maat]

94. I'm sorry ... but the view was crystal clear ...

you could see and hear everything; and, we were all going by the same people within a few minutes of each other. I could see quite clearly what was going on. People were applauding, and may have joked a bit, but they certainly weren't exceptionally rude.

Moreover, if you can't take a slight bit of joviality, when you are a full-grown adult, then you are an ASSHAT!

That is, and will remain, my opinion.

If I'd have cried to my boss any time someone said something slightly objectionable when I was a social worker, I would never have made it seven years!

If you wilt like a violet when someone jokes that you are handsome, then you do NOT belong in a job that deals with the public WHENEVER you are on duty.

[pnwmom]

108. You couldn't have heard anything from a few organizations behind.

And do you really think they would have treated a P-FLAG float the same way they treated the firefighters?

[donco6]

109. So now you're calling her a liar?

Jeez . . .

[Vanje]

119. It was unlikely Maat could hear clearly

over all those lesbians howling, yowling , and harrassing her.
Thats what people do at gay pride parades , isnt it.
(insert sarcasm icon here.)

[pnwmom]

131. Yeah sure. They love to howl at the P-FLAG float.

:sarcasm:

[Vanje]

123. Are you saying Maat isnt hot?

Are you?

[Maat]

155. You are entitled to your opinion, and I full support that right.

You are quite incorrect, however, in my humble opinion (and I was there).

That's all I'll say about the matter.

Have a good evening!

[mitchtv]

256. again, they were not city employees

they were citizens. City? not reponsible. Chief? did not intend supposed Harassment. OT pay only

[Vanje]

41. Thank you nt

[cboy4]

88. Thanks for posting that Maat

:hug:

Apparently the other poster doesn't believe you.

Apparently the other poster, who thinks she's an expert on all things gay, believes there was a mile and a half gap between groups, so there was no way for you to make an assessment.

What an outrage to insinuate that such a wonderfully decent human being like yourself is a liar. :puke:

[Maat]

91. Thanks for the kind words, Cboy. I'm sorry ... but we were NOT that far apart.

I was driving the vehicle, and was doing my best to keep any gap at all!

[pnwmom]

111. How could someone driving a float or other vehicle have heard whatever was

said a few organizations ahead of him or her?

My remarks here come out of my own experience of being sexually harassed, rather than anything else.

From my perspective, this isn't about gayness, it's about people who think it's okay to sexually harass.

[RetroLounge]

149. ANd you probably drive a float in parades too, right?

:eyes:

RL

[QC]

269. She and the three homosexuals she knows often drive parade floats together!

In fact, they are leading experts on this subject, along with many, many others.

[Vanje]

174. Did you sue anyone?

You could have gotten thousands!
THOUSANDS!

[pnwmom]

244. I had no need to sue. When I spoke to my boss,

he spoke to other V.P.'s. It turned out that the man who'd been harassing me had been harassing other women, too. That was the end of his fun. He was invited to resign six months later for other reasons.

Back in those days, I'm not sure sexual harassment law even existed. Not that you would care.

[davidinalameda]

214. I think the other poster is full of shit

can I say that without getting in trouble?

:shrug:

[mtnester]

248. Self delete

because I don't really trust people...sorry

[Gman]

6. Sexual harrassment is sexual harrassment

regardless of who is the harasser and who is the harassee. Unwelcome advances are inappropriate anywhere and anytime by anybody. And someone damn well should not have to be subjected to it against their will because they were forced to do it by their employer.

[Two Americas]

230. who disputes that?

No one, that is who.

At issue is whether or not firefighters, in their truck, with the windows up, with headphones on, at a public parade, were in some way repeatedly sexually harassed by person or persons unknown.

The "evidence" was every malicious and bigoted anti-gay stereotype imaginable. It basically boils down to "that gay stuff - you know what we mean wink wink - happened around us and that is so disturbing because we don't approve of the gay lifestyle and wanted to make a statement against that by not showing up for assignment." They are suing for their right to BE persecutors and bigots, not because they were persecuted.

Unfortunately, there are enough people who buy into the anti-gay stereotypes that juries can be assembled that can be persuaded to take the bigots' side, and apparently that works on some people here as well.

[Gman]

265. You really need to educate yourself on this story

it was a whole lot more than just stereotypes. Sexually harassed is a nice way to put it.

[cboy4]

8. If emergency service work wasn't such a firecely homophobic

atmosphere, where cops and firefighters, etc., weren't so afraid to be who there are, this would never have happened.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

10. So it's okay to force someone to endure unwanted sexual advances at work?

[cboy4]

13. Of course not. But what if a the San Diego Fire Department

is taking part in a Memorial Day parade, and some people start shouting that the black firefighter driving the engine is an N-word?

Now what?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. If it's the first time it's happened then the city would be held blameless.

If the employee asks not to be included in the parade the next year and the city orders him to participate and the same incident occurs then the city can be held liable.

David

[pnwmom]

37. I don't think that any municipal worker should be forced to participate in any parade,

and that the best thing to do would be to use only volunteers and to compensate them.

And that we should all condemn harassers of all stripes.

[Bluebear]

22. If a woman asks me out at work, should I be able to sue my employer?

Also, I read about "innuendoes", exactly what kind of "sexual advaces" took place?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. If you have told her you aren't interested and she continues and you tell your supervisor...

and they do nothing about it and the behavior continues then yes you can sue and will likely win. Unless the chick is really hot, then no one will believe that the advances were unwanted.

David

[Bluebear]

35. 'Unless the chick is really hot, then no one will believe that the advances were unwanted.' - huh?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. Your sarcasm detector is broken.

[pnwmom]

39. If she repeatedly harasses you, and you've complained to your employer,

and the employer has done nothing to stop her, then yes, you should sue.

[Bluebear]

42. What "complained to your employer"? All the article says is "previous firefighters reported"

Were these formal reports? Or hearsay in the locker room about how they had to endure "sexual advances" as is being claimed here?

[donco6]

44. "I ain't riding in no fag parade."

And thus, the "sexual harrassment" case was born.

[Bluebear]

47. Along with all these phantom "sexual advances" that posters are alluding to here.

[donco6]

50. Yup.

To a homophobe, a man in a speedo is a "sexual advance."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. It was enough for the judge and jury.

[Bluebear]

56. And juries are infallible as we all know.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

66. and so are posters at DU, eh.

[Bluebear]

67. It's clear what you think of DU posters, believe me. Adieu.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

70. Just the idiots.

[pnwmom]

80. What matters is that these firefighters were ordered to participate even though

parades are not part of their job description, and even though they made it clear that they didn't want to participate because of past incidents at the parade.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

140. The men testified that most of the 100K people were acting appropriately. The original complaint

only cites three people for "gestures".

Three people acting inappropriately (others cited for blowing kisses) out of 100K people on a parade route? If that is the standard, then just about everyone who has been in a parade has cause to sue.

[pnwmom]

32. How do you know? Do you know the people who were doing the harassing? n/t

[LoZoccolo]

235. They asked for it, eh? n/t

[Two Americas]

245. asked for what?

Your post makes no sense.

The lawsuit is an expression of hatred and bigotry. No one is saying that they deserved to be harassed. They weren't harassed. They are doing the harassing.

[LoZoccolo]

250. Who are they harassing?

You said it; now try and make sense of it. Who are they harassing? The fire department? For being gay? How can the fire department be gay? What are you talking about?

[Two Americas]

251. you really can't see that?

You can't see how they wanted to make a statement about the GLBTQ community by not participating? How their suit consists of every hateful stereotype, and nothing else? You can't see how it is their "right" to spread hatred and bigotry that they are claiming they were denied? You can't see how spreading hateful and bigoted ideas is beyond harassment - it leads it widespread harassment and persecution? You can't see how suing the city over this is a harassment of the city and city officials, and so by extension a harassment of the people whom the government represents?

All to protect their "right" to be bigoted and hateful and to express that.

[LoZoccolo]

267. I can't see who would even know that they declined to participate if they were allowed to decline.

It would be like:

"Do you want to drive the truck in the gay parade?"

"No."

"OK, I'll ask somebody else."

[Two Americas]

270. what are you talking about?

Clearly, avoiding the parade was never their goal. why are you willing to speculate in order to legitimatize and defend one side in this dispute, but not the other?

I think it is very likely that the intention all along was to use this absurd lawsuit as a opportunity for expressing and promoting bigotry and hatred. That is what actually happened - hatred and bigotry are being promoted including right here - as opposed to what you would have us imagine might have happened, or could have happened.

It would not surprise me at all to learn that some right wing hate organization is behind this.

[LoZoccolo]

274. They could have lost the suit.

You mean to tell me they risked losing all of their legal fees to "express and promote their bigotry and hatred"?

[Two Americas]

275. well, yeah

Are you claiming that no one would ever expend any resources on promoting bigotry? Not to mention they thought they might score big on this.

[Two Americas]

271. oh, say LoZoccolo

How is your poll going? You know, the poll that is not related to this at all, and is just hypothetical, on that other thread you are monitoring today along with this one. The two completely unrelated threads you are going back and forth between...

[Two Americas]

276. I asked you some questions

You can't see how they wanted to make a statement about the GLBTQ community by not participating? How their suit consists of every hateful stereotype, and nothing else? You can't see how it is their "right" to spread hatred and bigotry that they are claiming they were denied? You can't see how spreading hateful and bigoted ideas is beyond harassment - it leads it widespread harassment and persecution? You can't see how suing the city over this is a harassment of the city and city officials, and so by extension a harassment of the people whom the government represents?

Can you see these things, or not?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. Seems reasonable enough. No one should be forced to endure unwanted sexual advances.

Not too punitive but enough to make the city change their behavior in the future.

David

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. It's not sexual harassment.

If the firemen's bosses, for example, had made unwanted sexual advances, that would be sexual harassment.

Random bystanders on the street making unwanted sexual advances is not sexual harassment.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Considering there had been complaints about unwanted advances at previous parades...

then the employer is responsible for putting them in the same environment. Employers can be held liable for the actions of a customer. If the employee has complained and the employer does nothing to rectify the situation and insists that the employee continues to deal with the offensive customer. The courts have ruled this is sexual harassment.

David

[cboy4]

21. That's what I think also ... I don't know everyhing about the case,

but it seems like something that might end up in the Supreme Court.

As for you point, you're right.

If a black firefighter is called the N-word pouring water on a house .. is that sexual harassment?

Sounds like this court has paved the way for the answer to be yes.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

65. That would be racial not sexual.

[cboy4]

17. So are you saying firefighters should never be forced

to do any community events because of the chance someone might be sexually harassed?

Should they never be forced to leave the fire house to do inspections because there's a chance someone might be sexually harassed?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. When there has been a history of harassment at a certain event then yes the employer is...

responsible for making sure the employees aren't placed in a hostile work environment.

David

[Bluebear]

30. Ah so now it's not only harrassment but a "history" of same. What is the cutoff point?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. The history is what makes the city liable.

[pnwmom]

116. You sound like you're questioning the existence of sexual harassment law.

Every case is different, but yes, a history of harassment that has not been ameliorated by the employer is at the core of the laws.

The cut off point is for judges, juries, and mediators to decide.

[cboy4]

34. Has there been a history of harassment?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. The article said there had been a history of harassment and complaints about it.

[Bluebear]

40. No, it says "previous firefighters have reported", not "a history of harrassment".

There is no indication whether the "reports" were officially filed or just mentioned in passing, yes?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. As long as a supervisor was aware of the report then the city is liable.

Remember these firefighters asked to not participate and were ordered to.

David

[Bluebear]

49. Yeah I'd love to see a copy of that report that the firefighters were filing for $1 million dollars

EACH. Must have been a hell of a "sexual advance".

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. So I guess it's unheard of to sue for more than you truly expect to get.

[cboy4]

43. I just re-read the article and nowhere does it say there's

been a history of harassment and complaints.

Did you want to amend your argument?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. firefighters in previous gay-pride parades had reported being taunted with sexual innuendoes.

That sounds like a complaint to me. Apparently the judge and jury agreed.

David

[Bluebear]

57. "The jury agreed".... love to hear your take on California v Simpson.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. He was found not guilty as I recall.

[Bluebear]

64. Did you agree with his innocence? Do you recall?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. My personal opinion irrelevant. I wasn't sitting on the jury, I didn't see the evidence.

I thought the prosecution did a horrible job. I think a better prosecutor might have been able to secure a conviction. In the end he was held liable for their deaths, maybe the juries are better in civil cases.

David

[cboy4]

63. For the second time, where does it say that?

Could you please post a link to the story so I can read it?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. The second sentence in the article in the OP, it's in the OP. I can't make it any clearer.

[cboy4]

73. ****Are you going to post a link?******

I see nowhere that there's been prior incidents.

I try to make it a habit to not call people liars.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

76. Here is the OP again. Read the second sentence in the posted article. It starts with The four sued

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-firefighters-ga...

The four men sued the city after being ordered to drive a fire truck in the parade. The jury awards them $34,300 in damages.
By Tony Perry
February 19, 2009
Reporting from San Diego -- A Superior Court jury Tuesday found that four male firefighters were sexually harassed while driving a fire truck in the 2007 gay pride parade and were entitled to a combined $34,300 in damages from the city.

The four sued the city because they were ordered to drive the truck in the 90-minute parade even though firefighters in previous gay-pride parades had reported being taunted with sexual innuendoes.

The jury ruled that each of the four should receive $5,000. One should receive an additional $14,200 because he felt compelled to transfer to a different fire station after the incident, and another will receive $100 as reimbursement for a co-pay for a counseling session.

[cboy4]

83. No no no .. I mean thanks for finally posting the information,

but that's completely hearsay.

Hearsay isn't admissible in court nor in an argument like this .. especially when we have no formal complaint information, no quotes from firefighters who can tell us what happened, nor any lawsuit information.

Come on Dave.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

87. I'm just glad you finally learned to read. jk

I would guess they had the firefighters that had previously complained and the supervisors who fielded those complaints testify at trial. I guess really this is all hearsay we are taking a reporters word that this is in fact a real case.

David

[cboy4]

96. David, you seem like an otherwise decent guy, but I can't

believe you feel fire departments/firefighters should be allowed to pick and choose which community event in which they participate.

Do you know how hurtful that is for the overwhelming number of gay people who are just there to watch the parade.

And what's sad is if this had been say, the 4th of July parade, and some women shouted out that they wanted those firefighters to _ _ _ them out, they probably would have gone back to the station and rubbed one off in the shower because they were so excited.

There's a huge double standard and it's so wrong.

Why didn't those firefighters just say, eh, whatever?

There's just something wrong when, you would think, brave firefighters, lose their minds over being teased by a few gay people.

Not only that, they were being complimented.

Come on Dave.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

103. I wouldn't have sued. I believe the city should have asked for volunteers and paid them overtime.

That seems smarter than ordering someone to participate in something they are uncomfortable with when there have been complaints in the past. It's quite possible that straight firefighters wouldn't have found an advance from a woman as an unwanted sexual advance. It's also quite possible that the spectators in the parade thought the firefighters in the parade are gay. It was just a dumb move on the cities part to force them to participate. I would say the same thing if they forced a female cop to provide security at a girls gone wild event.

David

[pnwmom]

122. The double standard is to say that the sexual harassment laws should

only apply when men harass women, and not when men harass men, or women harass men.

[Two Americas]

263. no one makes any such claim

You are intentionally misrepresenting the views of those who disagree with you.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

92. I did find that the jury deadlocked in the first trial.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[originalpckelly]

53. Better not start fires at gay bars!

They may get sexually harassed there too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. That's just idiotic.

[cboy4]

78. That's far from idiotic. So yea, what happens? What

happens if the same comments had been made at the scene of a fire at a gay club?

It's a great question.

Will we not have certain homophobic firefighters (like the ones who sued), refuse to go.

Answer the tough question Dave.

I thought you're supposed to be brave.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. The subjects would likely be arrested for interfering with firefighters in the performance of...

their official duties at an emergency scene. If however firefighters were routinely called and dispatched in a non-emergency capacity and they were sexually harassed while there and complained about it, then their employer would have to attempt to mitigate that situation.

David

[cboy4]

110. LOL. David, telling a firefighter something like you'd like to

see them without their turnouts on, is not interfering, and thus not cause for arrest.

At the most, a cop would move the bystander back.

Your second point:

You're insinuating the fire department would not perhaps force them to respond to a commercial fire, with exposures in all directions, because they might hear the a bystander wants to grab their ass or suck their _ _ _ _.

These are frankly wild scenarios that you've prevented.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

112. If the spectator continued the behavior they would likely be arrested.

In either case the city is mitigating the situation and therefore wouldn't be liable.

David

[donco6]

81. Brave is one thing, . . .

but facing a bunch of winking gays is just too much to bear.

The poor dears are scarred for life. One even had to move.

Can't imagine one of them having to give CPR to a gay guy. They'd probably have to go on permanent disability.

[Bluebear]

90. Plus one had to undergo psychiatric counseling!

It must have been one hell of a "sexual advance".

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

93. I've done CPR on several gay people with AIDS even.

The fact that you'll can't differentiate between and emergency call and a parade is quite telling.

David

[donco6]

99. And I appreciate your service, in all honesty.

But, really, why do you think we have fire trucks in parades anyway? It grew out of a tradition in communities where they wanted to show off what they had done to support their community. "Look at our shiny new fire truck! Ain't it grand! Aren't you glad you live HERE and not over THERE? This is to support YOU!"

So a parade devoid of participation by public entities is a parade that says, "We aren't supported by public entities."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

107. I have no problem with a fire truck in a gay pride parade.

I have a problem with a municipality ordering someone to participate when there have been complaints in the past and the employees have specifically asked not to participate. It was stupid on the cities part. Ask for volunteers and pay them overtime, problem solved.

David

[pnwmom]

176. Come on. I can't believe you'd think it was okay

for people at a gay club to taunt fire fighters while they're trying to fight a fire.

Yes, the fire fighters have to keep fighting the fire no matter what. But you're really not excusing that kind of harassment, are you?

[marmar]

11. Their complaints might be perfectly legitimate, but the whole tone of this bugs me.....

..... seems like their egos were hurt just by the mere fact of having to drive in a gay pride parade. No, no one should be harassed, but I think there's a bit of breeder insecurity going on here. (And yes, I'm a breeder, lest someone attack me for being a heterophobe.)

[Bluebear]

18. but they were all getting sexual ADVANCES!!!!!1

According to many posters here. I don't know what they are calling "advances"...catcalls? Or did some of teh gays come up to their fire truck and ask them out on dates?

[pnwmom]

28. If I were a female fire fighter, I wouldn't want to participate if it meant

being subjected to either one. Men who act that way are obnoxious.

[pnwmom]

23. When I was much younger, I had to put up with hoots and whistles and

"invitations" as I walked in my town.

It was NOT fun. And it was not because of what I was wearing; I've always dressed conservatively. I think it was because I was young, and attractive in the way that most young healthy people are.

It was unnerving and insulting -- not flattering at all. The men who do this are obnoxious, whether their targets are young women or young men.

[Bluebear]

25. According to this suit, you should be compensated monetarily by the hooter's employer

Also for any counseling you hade to endure because of the hooting and whistling.

[pnwmom]

89. No, not by the "hooter's employer." The lawsuit asked for compensation from

the employer of the men who were SUBJECT to the harassment.

Similarly, if I had been required by an employer to walk through the gauntlet I described -- even though it wasn't part of any job description -- then I would have deserved compensation.

As it was, this was just part of being a teenager or young woman in my town in that era.

[Nikki Stone1]

26. Taunted with sexual innuendo? Women in "male" jobs get that constantly.

I'd like 34 G's.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. Which individual got 34k?

[bluedawg12]

127. They asked for a million each and the jury gave each some bus fare.

[pnwmom]

128. And women in those jobs should be able to take action under

sexual harassment laws.

When it happened to me repeatedly, decades ago, I complained to my boss. Fortunately, he responded strongly and the harassment stopped immediately. If it hadn't, I'd don't know what I'd have done; sexual harassment laws weren't in place to protect women like me then.

[MadBadger]

213. Then they should sue

Just because women get it all the time, doesnt mean thats right.

[Bluebear]

45. "the firefighters' attorney asked the jury to award each firefighter from $500K to $1 million"

Wow, it's expensive to endure a "sexual advance" by a gay.

[originalpckelly]

52. OMG! I think I may be responsible for some of that...

"Hey, Mr. Firefighter, can I play with your hose?
You can put out my fire anytime baby!"

San Diego? Ooops, sorry, that was the wrong gay pride parade! :-(

[cboy4]

58. I DON'T THINK I'VE SEEN THIS AMOUNT OF HOMOPHOBIA

in one thread at DU in practically, a day. :eyes:

[Bluebear]

61. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose

[Bluebear]

100. Gay pride is akin to white supremacy now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5085042&mesg_id=5085955

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

121. You should talk.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

135. If a female police officer was forced to provide security for a Girls Gone Wild event..

you, I and everyone else would applaud the law suit and rightfully so. The same with the African American case, I'm trying to give example that you won't miss with your obvious blind spot.

David

[Bluebear]

139. Comparing a gay pride parade to a white pride parade is beyond galling.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

145. That was the point, subtlety and logic had failed, I had to do something.

I figured you and everyone else would find that completely offensive and maybe see how idiotic it was for the city to order these firefighters to participate in this parade after they had requested otherwise.

David

[Bluebear]

148. LOL

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

153. I do appreciate the lively chat it's been fun, we'll have to do it again sometime.

Right now I have to watch Top Chef and play in a poker tournament.


:toast:

David

[SemiCharmedQuark]

156. Using that analogy...if white supremacist firefighters didn't want to participate in a parade for

Black History Month because they didn't believe that "people who don't like blacks should have to participate", would they have the right to sue if they were ordered to participate?

I think that analogy is closer to the actual circumstance. Both groups are discriminated against and at one time, or currently, both groups have their civil rights denied.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

157. You can sue for anything, I'm guessing they would lose that one.

The sexual aspect to this one is what makes it different.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

161. What about a female cop being ordered to provide security at a Girls Gone Wild event?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

164. Well, for one thing...this isn't a porno shoot. This was a public parade for families

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

172. It was just stupid for the city to order them to participate.

They should have asked for volunteers.

David

[Vanje]

179. It was totally innapropriate to send those firemen to a parade

Next year they should hire a bunch of women firefighters, including lots of lesbians, and there wont be any problem at all.

Seriously.
Those boys are way too easily damaged.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

182. or just ask for volunteers.

[bluedawg12]

184. I agree, or stay out of all parades, cause they will go to St. Paddys

and the 4th of July voluntarily and with pay??? tax payers money???

I wonder if this is the reason they had to go to this one, because everyone ofthem would go to the other parades and shun the gay community?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

186. Either would work, the second is unlikely.

[LostinVA]

126. That is exactly what you wrote -- Bluebear IS being honest

'Cause Gay Pride is just like a Klan march.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

137. You said it not me.

[LostinVA]

144. No, YOU said it -- nice try at sliding that in, though

:eyes:

Par for the course.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

150. You said it in post #130.

[bluedawg12]

115. They "asked the jury to award each firefighter from $500,000 to $1 million."

The fact that the award was on average $5,000, with one exception, "for $14,200 because he felt compelled to transfer to a different fire station after the incident, and another will receive $100 as reimbursement for a co-pay for a counseling session," suggests that no serious psychologial harm was done and the award was more symbolic.

[cboy4]

134. Yes, but it's still disturbing and can potentially trigger

a domino affect throughout the country.

"Fuck that, I'm not driving down a road lined with faggots who want to suck my dick .. and you can't force me because look what happened in San Diego.

But then again, you know all of this. :pals:

Sorry, but this thread sets me off.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

141. Good thought provoking conversation there cboy4, I look forward to our next discussion.

:toast:

David

[bluedawg12]

152. This can never cross over to denying gays service, that's for hospitals.

At least the firefighters will show up.

[mitchtv]

264. My fire fighter nephew NYFD

admits to not helping "undesireables" thought it was funny , I didn't as I would probably be denied service as well. That Queens house got busted up and they got transfered to somewhere where they might have to work\, in Manhattan . If it were up to me he'd be transfering to Van Cortland Park station.

[pnwmom]

163. The one received the $14,000 because of threats he received at the firehouse.

In order to get a transfer, he had to take a lower job classification.

I don't know when the threats occurred however, or how they related to the parade.

[bluedawg12]

175. gee, I didn't see any mention of threats in two stories I have now read.

Did I miss it or is there a separate link to another source?

[pnwmom]

193. Another from the San Diego Tribune.

As I said, the article doesn't say very much.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/18/1n18parade235421-jury-awards-34300-firefighters-ov/?zIndex=54586

Each firefighter was awarded $5,000 for emotional distress. An additional $100 went to Allison to cover 10 $10 co-pays for appointments with a social worker. Ghiotto received an extra $14,200 because he lost his designation – and 5 percent of his pay – as a battalion medical officer when he switched stations after the parade after receiving anonymous threats.

[donco6]

189. Do you have a link for that? I haven't see that part. n/t

[pnwmom]

151. Why do you think employers should be able to require employees

to perform work outside of their duties, for no additional pay?

Why do you think that there should be a double standard regarding sexual harassment?

[Two Americas]

206. don't be absurd

Neither of those are the issue here, and I believe that you must know that.

To claim that these men were in any way harassed is to render the concept of sexual harassment meaningless. Feeling offended - which at the very worst is all that these men endured - is to be seen as the equivalent to sexual harassment? You cannot be serious.

They didn't sue because they weren't paid. So that is a red herring.

Every malicious and hateful stereotype was dragged out by the firefighters to "support" their "case." They hoped to invoke and inflame hatred and bigotry and then profit by that. It is the bringing of the case that is itself the perpetration, the persecution, the harassment of people. The case is an example of persecution and spreading hatred. They are not the victims her by any stretch of the imagination.

The whole thing is so cleverly put together that it would not surprise me at all to learn that some right wing hate group is behind it. Dragging in all of those hateful anti-gay stereotypes into court - that can't be an accident. It is all just a little too well done. a little too clever.

Can you imagine if white city employees brought suit because they were forced to attend an event where most of the people were Black, and that Black people were doing Black people things and that made them offended? And claiming to be "victims" who had been persecuted or traumatized by the experience? That sort of thing used to happen. What do we call the people who did those things? Bigots. What do we call people who still spread those views today? White Supremacists.

[Bucky]

71. But did you see how they were dressed? Those bitches were asking for it

Oh, wait, these are men being subjected to unwanted sexual comments on the job--that's different. I take it back.

[RandomKoolzip]

74. If gay dudes flirt with me, I'm flattered.

Even if it's raunchy flirting. I once had a big bear-type guy tell me he'd like to "tear my ass up." I knew what he meant, and we laughed, and I said no thanks. I certainly didn't feel threatened.

[cboy4]

124. Are you a gay firefighter?

[RandomKoolzip]

207. No, I'm a straight douchebag.

[Malikshah]

75. Time to follow them a la Cheaters and catch them in the act of harassment

themselves...maybe find a GLBT person in the Department...

Having followed the story-- this story ain't over by a long shot and they may lose the pittance 8.500 vs. the million they were asking for-- in the end.

[pnwmom]

95. Of the 12 questions that had to be decided by the jury, the one that had

the most dissent had the same three dissenters -- all male. This was on the issue of whether or not the harassment was pervasive or serious (I don't remember the exact words).

I wonder if the women were more sympathetic to the claims of the fire fighters because women were more likely to have been harassed themselves.

[4lbs]

101. More detailed information on this case from the San Diego Union-Tribune newspaper.

2009-02-08: Gay Parade's Case's Jury Facing Key Question

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/08/1m8parade232633-gay-parade-cases-jury-facing-key-q/?zIndex=49869



2009-02-12: Gay Pride Parade Case Goes to Jury

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/12/1m12parade223147-parade-case-goes-jury/?uniontrib

[donco6]

114. Everyone should read this. It opens up the homophobia quite a bit.

And directly contradicts most of pnwmom's claims.

[bluedawg12]

120. They were pissed off about having to go, but, they rolled their windows up

and put on head phones.

This is another over blown bit of anti-gay muckracking.

[Bluebear]

125. But, but, they were subject to UNWELCOME SEXUAL ADVANCES say some of our guests!

[bluedawg12]

130. OMG! I once drove through Daytona on Spring break. All those 1/2 nekkid college kids.

I must have a case! :sarcasm:

[Bluebear]

133. You need to be compensated posthaste. And get psychological counseling.

And transfer to a new job.

[bluedawg12]

166. I didn't know I was "damaged" till my attorney told me how I suffered!

:rofl:

[bluedawg12]

136. How do these 4 guys handle fires if a parade makes them so nervous?

[Vanje]

183. They are very sensitive and easily damaged

They should be moved to clerical postions , and relpaced in the field by big strong lesbians.

[donco6]

132. Very clear from this article.

It was all about having to be in the fag parade.

[bluedawg12]

142. Yup. They were pissed off, got an attorney who saw $1 million a piece

and a 33% cut for his services. This story reeks.

The first jury threw it out, BTW.

[donco6]

159. And the award is a huge net loss for the attorney.

Taking a case all the way to trial TWICE? We're talking $250,000, minimum.

[bluedawg12]

162. He was counting on homophobia winning the case for him. Tough!

In the old days the symbolic verdict was a dollar.

So, they got $34,000 minus 33%, split four ways?

[donco6]

169. I think one guy got $100, total.

BWAHAHA!

Loser.

[bluedawg12]

177. Actually, that was the extent of his "counseling" bill $100.

"$100 as reimbursement for a co-pay for a counseling session."

[donco6]

187. Oh, I see. I read it wrong. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

180. Actually he got the most $19,100 to be exact.

[bluedawg12]

188. Nope, that was a different parade "victim."

"The jury ruled that each of the four should receive $5,000. One should receive an additional $14,200 because he felt compelled to transfer to a different fire station after the incident, and another will receive $100 as reimbursement for a co-pay for a counseling session."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

190. Misread, my apologies. So one got $5,100.

[bluedawg12]

196. No need to apologize it's such a token verdict it's hard to calculate

who gets what after the attorney's fees. :evilgrin:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

198. I'm pretty sure the union paid for the attorneys.

[bluedawg12]

199. Qustion F_M_D: Why did these four lie about the union not backing them up?

That was from the defense lawyer. It seems odd for union guys on the job to attack their own union?

"He also said the firefighters lied on the stand when they testified that their union wouldn't help them because it was in contract negotiations with the city. The negotiation period had ended a month before the 2007 parade."
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/12/1m12parade223147-parade-case-goes-jury/?uniontrib

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

201. I thought the union paid for the attorneys, that may have been in the 1st trial though.

I think it was that in the IAFF newsletter but I could be wrong. They are probably backing some other guy for president of the local or some such mess.

David

[bluedawg12]

205. It says, "the firefighters lied on the stand ..." about the union.

Either way, 1st or 2nd trial, it's hard to imagine turning on your brother (and sister) fire fighters and lying on the witness stand.

I guess the promise of a cool million makes people do odd things.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

209. Who knows the source may just be pissed wanting to cause trouble because he lost.

[bluedawg12]

211. The source: Deputy City Attorney Don Shanahan attacked the credibility of the firefighters

It was part of his court room clsoing argument.

"In his closing, Deputy City Attorney Don Shanahan attacked the credibility of the firefighters by pointing out inconsistencies in their testimony and suggesting that they lied on the stand. He said they were uncomfortable at the parade but not sexually harassed."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

212. Zealously defending his client.

[bluedawg12]

217. That's why he would know the facts of the case and the lies that went with testimony.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

226. He was there, so that makes sense.

[bluedawg12]

228. Nice talking with you, F_M_D. It's late and I'm going

just didn't want to appear I was leaving a conversation hanging.

Good night. :hi:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

237. Sleep well my friend.

[Maat]

104. I smell blatant SEXISM on the part of the "victims" here ...

don't tell me that this isn't all about getting HER (female head of the department, who has the nerve to be uppity and actually be in command of something, instead of being home and making a man a meal every night).

[SemiCharmedQuark]

129. “I believe that a person who does not support homosexuality should not be forced to participate.”

And there it is. The true crux of this case.

I think this is important:

"Deputy City Attorneys Don Shanahan and Kristin Zlotnik often pointed out that the firefighters weren't touched, and all four firefighters testified that they did not feel threatened.

They were sitting about 6 feet off the ground in a fire engine, and each agreed the diesel engine and headphones silenced some of the comments. At one point, they rolled up the windows. Each also testified that most people in the crowd, estimated at more than 100,000, dressed and acted appropriately, and many waved and cheered as the engine passed.

The firefighters either contradicted themselves or each other when describing the amount of abuse.

Kane used the word “pockets” to describe the inappropriate behavior along the route, but he also testified it was consistent throughout."

..

"When LiMandri asked Allison to quantify the number of comments he heard, he put the figure “in the hundreds.” Shanahan asked Allison why he didn't include that in the discrimination claim he filed shortly after the parade.

“You talk about (in the claim) gestures from three individuals and several witnesses blowing kisses, but nothing about the hundreds of comments,” Shanahan said. “Didn't you think . . . that would be significant?” "

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/08/1m8parade232633-gay-parade-cases-jury-facing-key-q/?zIndex=49869

[bluedawg12]

143. The plaintiff's testimonies were inconsistent and the first jury dumped this case.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

147. Exactly. Three gestures blew up to "hundreds".

[bluedawg12]

158. Frankly, it does raise the question, which parades do City workers march in

and when and why? And who pays for this activity?

I mean there are City employees, for ex. FD personnel at St. Paddys Day and 4th of July parades.

Is it all voluntary? Off the clock? If not, who pays the salaries and if it's the tax payers, it may be worth a second look with our economy being what it is.

[flvegan]

165. Damn, but Mardi Gras is gonna suck from now on.

Now that there's case law on the books.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

167. One blown kiss...bam. A million dollars.

[bluedawg12]

170. I'm ready to sue for Mardi Gras from 100's of miles away!

The very thought, with my windows rolled up and my head phones on, makes me so anxious. :sarcasm:


Anxious for some delish....gumbo that is! :evilgrin:

[Two Americas]

178. very disturbing

I find the hateful and bigoted comments on this thread alarming and disturbing, and I am not using the terms "hateful" and "bigoted" casually or gratuitously.

These men were at the most - at the very most - feeling uncomfortable. Not harassed, not persecuted, not threatened, not harmed in any way. They are not victims, they are angry and hateful would-be persecutors. They wished to make an anti-gay statement by not participating in the parade. That is betrayed by a comment from one of the men.

There were no "sexual advances" - I think that is safe to say. The men were inside their truck with the windows up. I don't know what they supposedly heard, since they had head phones on and the windows were up. I don't know what they saw - if people were having sex on the street, that is an issue that I am sure the police would handle. If people were running around nude - well, could someone please explain to me what the difference is between a nude gay person and a nude hetero person??? And how is anyone traumatized by seeing a nude person?

They sued because their "right" to be bigoted and hateful was denied to them, and the only larger issue at stake is whether or not bigotry and hatred should be protected everywhere. Sadly, a jury - or a pack of DUers - that will take their side is all to easy to find.

[bluedawg12]

195. "They sued because their "right" to be bigoted and hateful was denied to them"

That was well said.

They were made to drive their enclosed truck down a parade route, in public, in broad daylight and after 2 trials, they got a few pennies for their effort and not the $4 million dollars they sought.


Coming soon another Parade, St. Paddys, I hope they all go on sick call, it might be too much for them. :eyes:

[Starry Messenger]

181. Well, I hope these brave heroes will shun the St. Paddy's Day parades too.

You know what those randy, drunken Irish women are like. I'm sure these four will refuse to put themselves through that. :sarcasm:

[Vanje]

185. And Mardi Gras

I understand that women harrass men by lifting their blouses.
Oh! The horror!
Imagine the counseling required.

[bluedawg12]

191. Oh noes! 1/2 nekkid women at mardi gras. that's gotta be worth a lot of $$$

Those poor men. :rofl:

[Starry Messenger]

192. I'm sure they'd be just shattered.

Imagine having to face your fellows the next day. Telling them that boobs were seen. They'd be shunned. They'd be afraid they'd be thought of as...um...women...or something.

[bluedawg12]

202. I understand that a little bit of the tippling goes on at mardi gras

those college kids do go wild.

[Runcible Spoon]

197. I think reasonable people can agree to disagree on this subject.

:grr: :sarcasm:

[bluedawg12]

200. OMGawsh. That reply just made me anxious.

:sarcasm:

counting on my paws what it's worth. :evilgrin:

[Runcible Spoon]

203. I can't think of anything else to add to this bullshit.

The bigots in this thread got the smackdown they deserve, but it worries me that it went on THIS LONG considering the nature of some of the comments. I'm too livid to try to reason with some of this tripe.

[Two Americas]

246. scared me

These new user names. I thought this was a serious post when I first saw the title, the it took me a second to connect the user name, and THEN I saw the sarcasm smiley. Meanwhile, I suffered 7.8 seconds of severe emotional trauma, and you will be hearing from my attorney lol. Oh, no, wait, I should sue the owner of the Internets for forcing me into a "gay" environment. Or were you making some sort of advances? Harassment! The gays are harassing me!!! I had the windows up and my head phones on and tried not to look at your post. But I couldn't avoid it, and it made a sarcasm gesture at me! Will I ever recover from the damage?

[donco6]

252. Not without a significant settlement, you won't. n/t

[Two Americas]

257. the whole debate here is absurd

I can't believe that there is an argument about this here.

It is the very presence and existence of "the gays" that these fire fighters have a problem with. That is the "harassment" they are claiming to be experiencing. That is clearly and obviously bigoted and hateful, and it is very dangerous to pander to and promote and excuse and defend and apologize for that. They are fighting for the right to be persecutors, not protecting themselves from persecution. They are the aggressors, not the victims here. They are using that common right wing trick to turn reality on its head, to portray the persecutors as the persecuted, and it is alarming how many people here cannot see through these right wing tactics. They are using the same "logic" as that behind the "reverse racism" arguments.

[donco6]

259. It is so obvious. On any other issue, there'd be no debate.

But it seems people here are willing to believe anything about gays - particularly if it's foul.

May they all come down with pinworms.

[Two Americas]

260. yeah

Or they might be too....indigo, or something.

[1]

215. good for the firefighters. sexual harassment is sexual harassment and should be punished...

good for the firefighters.

[Bluebear]

222. Don't bother researching any of the facts before handing out your kudos, by all means

[Name removed]

223. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluedawg12]

238. They punished the tax payers who paid the bill for this reheated law suit

that was dumped the first time around.

So, now there will be an appeal. It's not over.

[Starry Messenger]

220. Here's a PDF of the original complaint.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/images/070806firefighters.pdf

What is striking to me is the fact that a few of the complaints cited religion as a basis for objecting to being in the parade. They also cite being harassed and heckled by Christian protesters at the parade. I notice they aren't going after any churches for the "emotional distress" of being told they are going to hell for being in a gay pride parade.

I hope people here will take the time to read this document. It is very detailed.

[bluedawg12]

221. Thank you for your research. That's interesting selective suit, leaving out the antigay religious

protestors who also harrassed them.

I will read it. Nice research!

[Bluebear]

224. "I requested a crisis intervention team" after the parade

Honestly.

[bluedawg12]

234. Blue- This is far from over, the City is planning an Appeal

oh and the firefighters from the prior years, who went to Pride, I guess they survived without a prayer from Rick Warren? :sarcasm:

[Bluebear]

261. you said it.

[Bluebear]

225. Firefighter Kane claims religious discrimination too, because he is a Christian

"They were some group of Christians that were against these alternative life styles . They then began
to lecture us on how we were bad people for supporting this . This really struck deep
because I am a Christian. I felt this was not fair because I do not live an alternative
lifestvle."

Why yes, this is worth a million dollars. :sarcasm:

[Starry Messenger]

229. I was just about to copy that here, too.

"alternative lifestyle". Where I've worked, this kind of statement would get him *fired* (or disciplined at the very least), not rewarded. I knew San Diego was conservative but damn! This whole case outcome is like a freeper fantasy.

[bluedawg12]

231. All of the elements of modern life, politics and religion and an Appeal!

because, this ain't over yet. The City will appeal.

Of course money and religiousity going hand in hand.

It's a lousy precedent, this verdict and the appeal will be watched.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

243. Apparently the jury only found it worth $5,000.

[rvablue]

232. Gay men are just as capable of being sexual harrasers as strainght men...the end. n/t

[bluedawg12]

236. All humans are capable. But driving a parade route? Give it a rest.

:rofl:

Let's stop spending public funds for City workers marching in any parades. Seriously, California, is in big time financial trouble and City workers are marching in all kinds of parades ( St. Paddy's, the 4th) and getting paid? Tax dollars?

And now tax dollars for their law suit?

Enough.

[rvablue]

239. I've been to gay pride parades and the St. Paddy's Day parade they are not! n/t

[Starry Messenger]

241. So do you think the Protestant firemen would protest

being in a parade that celebrated an Irish Catholic saint? And successfully sue if they were forced to go?

[Toasterlad]

282. You Have Never Been To A Single Gay Event In Your Life.

You have seen some footage of some drag queens on television, and maybe a picture of a couple of leather daddies in a newspaper. And from that, you've formulated your entire concept of gay people.

I have encountered SO MANY people like you, Sally. I can spot you from a mile away.

[MadBadger]

240. While I think the case is bullshit, I think some have a double standard with sexual harrassment

[Bluebear]

247. Which some would those be? We can't discuss it if you don't point out which 'some'?

[Name removed]

242. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Numba6]

249. I don't get it... aren't hot firemen SUPPOSED to be harrassed in a gay pride parade?

I thought that was considered half the fun

[Starbucks Anarchist]

258. And all this time, I've been hanging around gay people for free.

:mad:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

272. But, I make such lovely company

[Starbucks Anarchist]

277. Uh, yeah...

:P

[marshall]

266. That's the double edged sword of broadly written laws

It can cut both ways, in directions the authors never imagined. Who could have foreseen someone like Paula Jones and her backers hijacking harassment laws and dragging our president through the mud? Likewise in this case the law is being turned on its head.

[Two Americas]

273. come on folks - THINK

Come on liberals and progressives. Do some critical thinking here.

This was a parade. On a public street. 100,000 people there. The men were in the cab of a fire truck.

Were bricks thrown through the window of the truck? Were the men assaulted? Were they even touched? Were they trapped, threatened? Were they ever at any risk at all? Were their movements in any way interfered with?

By what stretch of the imagination are we to give any credibility whatsoever to this claim that they were somehow "sexually harassed" under these circumstances, and according to everything they themselves have said?

Make something up. Give me any specific hypothetical thing that could have possibly happened that would be sexual harassment.

Merely being around "gays" and feeling uncomfortable does not mean that anyone is "harassing" you.

What if you were driving down the street, in your job, and you had to drive through a neighborhood where people were wearing :end racism" t-shirts and wearing Black skin. You are uncomfortable with that, because you do not approve of the lifestyle of Black people and you don't agree with their politics, and you are opposed to the anti-racism movement and as a white person feel personally offended and insulted by it.

Have you been harassed?

[Toasterlad]

280. If It Were a Bunch of WOMEN Coming On To Them, They Wouldn't Be Suing Shit.

Sexual harrassment my ass. There are women in this country that are experiencing REAL sexual harrassment. They are being denied promotions and threatened with losing their jobs if they don't comply with their bosses sexual demands. A bunch of homophobic firemen all peeing themselves because a few gay guys called them hot is a fucking slap in the face to people who have REAL FUCKING PROBLEMS.

That being said, those firemen SHOULD have won their case, because they should never have been ordered to "march" (or drive) in a parade. How is that in their job description? THAT'S what they should have sued over, not because they dissolved into quivering pools of Massengill over a man finding them attractive. Way to be secure in yourself, San Diego's Bravest. You fucking pussies.

[we can do it]

281. As a Retired Female Firefighter - I Call Bullshit

These guys can dish it out but can't take it - if no one notices them - they cry, if someone does they cry......they could not walk One Week In a Woman's Shoes with out calling for their mommies.....give me a fucking break.