Seven states pushing for Personhood for the Pre-born. And we reach across the aisle?

[madfloridian]

They are not giving up for a minute, not for a second. It is like a mindless opposition that they don't even have to think about anymore.

They just look for one way or another, one loophole or another...to do away with the rights of women.

They seem in many cases unconcerned that our country's economy is swirling down the drain. Gotta save those Unborn....sorry, I forgot. They are calling them Pre-Born now. It's just another way of making sure women do not have the right to choose their own medical care with the help of their physician.

And we are going to keep reaching across the aisle.

Seven States Have Launched Efforts for Personhood Rights for Pre-born - Even More Expected in 2009

DENVER, Feb. 18 /Christian Newswire/ -- Personhood USA is pleased to announce that since the beginning of the new year, Seven different States have started efforts for the personhood of pre-born children. In addition, Rep. Duncan Hunter has introduced H.R. 881, the Right to Life Act , on the federal level, propelling the personhood movement forward.

Five States have now introduced bills affirming the personhood rights of pre-born humans from the moment of fertilization including:
Maryland / HB925 Delegate Don Dwyer
North Dakota / H.R. 1572 Rep. Dan Ruby
Montana / SB 406 Sen. Daniel W McGee
South Carolina / H.3526 Rep. Liston Barfield
Alabama / SB-335 Sen. Hank Erwin

Oregon has begun a personhood amendment petition drive, and Mississippi's personhood amendment petition drive is expected to launch within weeks.

The common thread among all of these efforts is the goal to fill what is becoming known as the "Blackmun Hole" in Roe v. Wade. This is where Justice Blackmun implied in the Roe v. Wade decision that if the case were established that the pre-born was a person, the argument for abortion collapses. In Roe v Wade, it is acknowledged that the "fetus" is fully human, but did not grant the rights of "persons" until birth.

Lost your job? Don't worry about it. Losing your home? Never fear. The Religious Right is here to save the Pre-Born, and you don't need to fret.

And our party's record of standing up against some of these extremist views has not been exactly stellar lately. The previous appointment to the HHS position had once introduced of the most drastic anti-abortion bills ever. Far more drastic and rigid than that of the Republicans.

Not only that the new party chairman for the Democrats does not stand apart on issues like these. He is anti-choice, anti-stem cell funding, anti-civil unions, and not very fond of labor

Pardon if I seem a little cross about all this. I love President Obama, but I am not very fond of many with whom he has surrounded himself.

I no longer want to hear that the main criteria to be in the leadership of the party is to "reach across the aisle" and "be acceptable to the Republicans."

We are pandering while they on the right are plotting their next subversive moves.

[jobycom]

1. Curious, but are they going to extend personhood to all pre-borns

or just the white male hetero Xian pre-borns? It would be nice to see them give a damn about a post-born-er now and then.

[madfloridian]

3. What you said.

Probably right on the criteria to get protection under personhood. Worry about the post born? Not likely.

[KakistocracyHater]

71. really craptastic!

At the expense of female personhood, coincidentally-not like they intend it that way. Where are all the scientists telling us how in utero operations don't use pain killers because up to 28 weeks the nervous system just isn't connected yet? What about the ((((catastrophic))))) birth defects for those premature births? Where is the careful consideration of the outcome for these fetuses, marking out a 'failure to thrive' if necessary, in-home care costs to some children, a lifetime of agonizing pain for others?

These ones have a FETISH FOR THE FETUS-nothing more; it's because it is their perfect emblem: neither fully alive nor fully dead-perfect for the Fish & his House.

[tucsonlib]

74. I See DOLLAR-SIGNS!

Me, I'm going to start crafting and marketing a line of teeny-weeny coffins. The demand will be huge! When funerals are held for every miscarried embryo tragically cut down in the prime of, er, life, where ya gonna go for that satin-lined, matchbox-sized, mahogany and brass casket? I'm gonna be rich I tell you. RICH!


:crazy: :crazy:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. As one of the pre-dead,

I am going to be forced to insist on excluding these pre-borns from being able to receive disability payments or any other kind of government assistance because those fertilized eggs are going to be a HUGH drain on our already-beleaguered treasury.

It's good these people - true Americans - have their eye on what really matters.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Remember, according to the Bush Admin. all women are to consider themselves 'pre-pregnant'.

And act accordingly.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

6. Every sperm is sacred,

and eggs are just a person looking to be completed.

Is this where I get my baseball bat and go out looking for non-believers?

[raccoon]

40. And for that reason, male masturbation should be a FELONY!

"Every sperm is sacred,"


:sarcasm: Need I add?

[madfloridian]

7. I think that "pre-pregnant" theme still exists.

I was reading about it the other day.

[Left Coast2020]

35. I believe he said "not enough OBGYN's are not sharing their love".

Just like he said he saw it on the "internets". :argh:

[raccoon]

39. Even if she's past "the change?" nt

[Captain Hilts]

5. Putting it on the ballot is a means to help right wing turnout in the '10 elections. nt

[Dr.Phool]

59. Bingo!

They've always got to have a ballot issue, especially in the off-cycle elections, to turn out the minions.

[katandmoon]

8. And when the fuck is Obama restoring abortion coverage to Fed. employee insurance policies?

Clinton did it his first day in office.

Bush of course took it out as soon as he took office.

WTF is Obama waiting for?

[Captain Hilts]

41. Interesting point. I didn't know he hasn't. nt

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. Where are the Sanitary Pad Inspectors?

Tampon Inspectors?

Now how are they gonna inspect used drip-catchers for cast-off zygotes???

They never thought about that -- it could get really gross.

That should make them gag.....:evilgrin:

(And before you get on my case for hating women, I AM a woman and I don't want to look at it and get grossed out.)

This reminds me of the time The Great Newt said that women couldn't serve in combat in the military, because after a month they would get......."infections".

Stupid fuckstick doesn't know the diff between an infection and a normal menstrual period.


:banghead: :grr: :wtf:

[Warpy]

10. Blackmun's argument only holds up

if personhood is stripped from the woman in whose body the potential person resides.

Only by doing that do you strip her of the right to defend her life against an unwanted pregnancy.

[madfloridian]

11. Hasn't that right been taken from women already?

Or maybe they save the mother's life, but they can't worry about her health.

There are some very serious bans on it now.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

15. Weren't they struck down w/o the life AND health exception??

That's what I thought.
Mother's life AND health must be carved out as exceptions.

That's when Grandpa McCain LOST...talking about womens' health.

These stupid bastards know NOTHING about womens' bodies or minds.

[madfloridian]

18. Here's more about the SC ruling....does not have to include health of mother.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18174245/

"Siding with Kennedy were Bush's two appointees, Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito, along with Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

The law is constitutional despite not containing an exception that would allow the procedure if needed to preserve a woman's health, Kennedy said. "The law need not give abortion doctors unfettered choice in the course of their medical practice," he wrote in the majority opinion.

Doctors who violate the law face up to two years in federal prison. The law has never taken effect, pending the outcome of the legal fight.

Kennedy's opinion was a long-awaited resounding win that abortion opponents expected from the more conservative bench.

In dissent, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said the ruling "cannot be understood as anything other than an effort to chip away at a right declared again and again by this court."

[stopbush]

12. But they're ignoring the Xian tradition of ensoulment, ie: the moment the

soul enters the fetus, which according to Aquinas happens like 90 days after conception.

How DARE they ignore their own traditions???

[ChickMagic]

50. Saint Augustine figured ensoulment differently

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

Like other Church Fathers, St Augustine "vigorously condemned the practice of induced abortion". In his works, Augustine did consider that the gravity of participation in an abortion depended whether or not the fetus had yet received a soul at the time of abortion. He held that this ensoulment occurred at 40 days for males, and 90 for females.

How's that grab you?

[catnhatnh]

13. Yes, and cudgels should reach there nicely.N/T

[old mark]

14. I wonder if the "pre-born" will get tax rebates? nt

[radfringe]

45. if I adopt a few dozen embryos

can I claim them as dependents on my taxes?

[madfloridian]

48. Heck, why not if they have personhood.

:evilgrin:

[old mark]

49. They wouldn't eat much, or take up a lot of space, and after

they are born, the Republicans don't give a shit what happens to them anyway.

mark

[madfloridian]

52. Exactly

:evilgrin:

[radfringe]

54. won't have to buy them clothes, toys etc

pay for college, worry about what they may be watching on TV or looking at on the inter-tubes either

[Bluebear]

16. We have to accommodate ALL views.

:sarcasm:

[madfloridian]

56. Seems that way sometimes.

Except the views of the liberals.

[riverdeep]

17. Let them put their money where their mouth is.

If abortion really is murder, then they need to start killing women that have had them. Yes, charge them with murder and strap them down and do the lethal injection, or gas chamber or some states still have the option of firing squad, that would be really dramatic.

But they won't. The last administration actually told them what the Republican hierarchy thinks of them, and they still don't get it. David Kuo's book reveals all:

He says some of the nation’s most prominent evangelical leaders were known in the office of presidential political strategist Karl Rove as “the nuts.”

“National Christian leaders received hugs and smiles in person and then were dismissed behind their backs and described as ‘ridiculous,’ ‘out of control,’ and just plain ‘goofy,’” Kuo writes.

http://www.intoxination.net/node/4361

The true believers have been used for decades. Think about it, the last administration had the power to make abortion illegal and didn't. Considering all the heinous things they did legally, it certainly wasn't because of shyness.

The other reason they won't charge women with murder, is because many of their wives, and mistresses, might get the rap, too.

[Lasher]

19. I want to reach across the aisle.

To punch them in the face.

[bobthedrummer]

20. Republicans love you, until you are born.

[Initech]

21. George Carlin debunks the pro-lifers' arguments;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6It6HtpTPTA

[SidneyCarton]

22. Are we reaching for the legislators, or the voters?

If for the legislators, then I agree it's a lost cause which will ruin us, they are ideological fanatics who will never see reason. If it is for the voters, then we are looking at some, (perhaps as much as 10% of the Republican and independent electorate in some areas) who are not part of the hard-line 29%, should we get and keep a hold on these voters (dare we call them "Obama Republicans?") then these troglodyte morons can try and pass all the measures they can dream of, they will be stuck at a diminishing 30% for at least another generation.

[mentalslavery]

70. Good points here, but holding on to the reasonable republicans

and independents must be followed up by contacting the legislators informing and reminding them that they represent a dwindling minority. They might represent that "crazy", but they do understand the concept of re-election. We must clip away at their districts.

[Triana]

23. Zygotes are people but women aren't. InteresTINK.

The American Taliban strikes again!

:grr: :mad:

[Lucian]

24. So what if a woman has a miscarriage?

Will she be tried for murder?

Goddamn I'm sick of the Republicans trying to strip away women's rights!

[FatDave]

47. No.

Because I'm sure miscarriages are all part of God's inscrutable plan.

:puke:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Chulanowa]

26. They don't even stop to think about this idiocy, do they?

It will get slapped down in every state, for one very good reason. Here is that reason. Murder investigations for every miscarriage.

[jberryhill]

27. I strongly urge you not to take "legal analysis" from "Christian Newswire" at face value

"This is where Justice Blackmun implied in the Roe v. Wade decision that if the case were established that the pre-born was a person, the argument for abortion collapses."

Uh, no. Roe v. Wade does not assume that the unborn has no rights. Roe v. Wade applies a sliding balance to a set of competing interests.

Aside from which, Roe is hardly the last legal word on the subject.

These various proposals are theatrical productions for campaigning and fundraising purposes. By all means they should be opposed as such, but the legal theory behind them is unsound.

[madfloridian]

28. I am not posting legal opinion. I am posting my anger.

Or my Poutrage or whatever people here call it when a person feels genuine outrage.

I was not getting technical...I was pointing out the utter absurdity of "reaching out" to people who don't care about us at all.

[jberryhill]

30. By all means be outraged

But the actual "threat" represented by these things in the press release by a group that pimps itself out to raise funds for these things, is that their donors will be inspired to go broke handing over cash.

I'm sure there is some person locked in a mental ward somewhere who is muttering political or legal ideas that would get me positively furious.

On the scale of nuisance, this outfit ranks higher, but ultimately these people are going to have to learn on their own by banging their own heads against the brick wall that they are not going to get what they want, and that's not even something the President can give them if he wanted to.

I'm not telling you what you can or can't get angry about. I just didn't want anyone to buy into this cockamamie "Blackmun hole" notion and think these "personhood" resolutions would actually accomplish this non-existent goal.

[madfloridian]

32. My anger is that we are reaching out to them.

You can not compromise with extremists.

[babylonsister]

31. Yawn. You are right Nutjobs et al... .nt

[madfloridian]

33. There are some posts

that I can not see. I have made it clear how I feel. No more making me feel guilty for speaking out. Sebelius is chosen now, so no need to softpedal.

More Poutrage tomorrow. Already written up.

We worked too damn hard to get Obama elected to be cut out of the scenario.

[ecstatic]

29. The bipartisanship experiment was fun while it lasted. I'm so over it now, and I think

the President is too. I expect to see harsh politics played within the next 6 months.

[Politicalboi]

34. Maybe OctoMom should

See what they can do for her and her 14 kids.

[Raster]

36. personhood for the pre-born? Oh hell yeah, I'll reach across the aisle...

to slap the fucking shit out of them!

[TheWraith]

37. Oh for crying out loud, enough with the Obama bashing.

Apparently it's not enough for some DUers to be repeatedly proven wrong, they still think they're so much smarter than Obama. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

42. Oh, just hush. I admire Obama. It is those surrounding him I trust very little.

If I said the sky was blue you would argue and get upset.

Life is too short.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. Actually, I think the best thing they can do is stop soft-pedaling what they really want to do.

Outlaw the pill. Grant rights under the 14th Amendment to single cells. Overturn not just Roe, but Griswold.

Really, what they'd like to do is outlaw all non-procreative fucking. Fine. But it's well past time that the majority of Americans- most of whom are pro-choice, and certainly the vast majority of whom support legal contraception- to be AWARE of what it is the anti-choice movement is after.

There's a reason why many big anti-choice groups got all flappy-armed because of the doomed-to-fail personhood amendment in Colorado- not b/c they don't believe in it, but because they'd still like Americans to think this is about nonexistent topics like "partial birth abortion". Once they get enough theocratic Torquemadas on the Judiciary, then they can become more open about the real goals.

In the meantime, someone should ask them when they're going to get serious about the "preconceived babies":

http://www.geocities.com/preconceivedbabies/

:rofl:

[KansDem]

43. Does this mean a corporation under construction...

...enjoys double personhood status? :silly:

[likesmountains 52]

44. Personhood was voted down by a 3:1 margin in Colorado last November..

Hopefully other states will also see it as extremism...

[madfloridian]

46. Glad to hear that.

:hi:

[anonymous171]

51. Lockstep is bad, remember? nt

[madfloridian]

53. "Forever pregnant"...found the article I was looking for.

Someone mentioned above about being "pre-pregnant."

This goes along with it. From the WP in 2006.

Forever Pregnant. Guidelines: Treat Nearly All Women as Pre-Pregnant

New federal guidelines ask all females capable of conceiving a baby to treat themselves -- and to be treated by the health care system -- as pre-pregnant, regardless of whether they plan to get pregnant anytime soon.

Among other things, this means all women between first menstrual period and menopause should take folic acid supplements, refrain from smoking, maintain a healthy weight and keep chronic conditions such as asthma and diabetes under control.

While most of these recommendations are well known to women who are pregnant or seeking to get pregnant, experts say it's important that women follow this advice throughout their reproductive lives, because about half of pregnancies are unplanned and so much damage can be done to a fetus between conception and the time the pregnancy is confirmed.

The recommendations aim to "increase public awareness of the importance of preconception health" and emphasize the "importance of managing risk factors prior to pregnancy," said Samuel Posner, co-author of the guidelines and associate director for science in the division of reproductive health at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which issued the report.

Maybe a good idea to lead a healthy life, but not a good idea to do so because one might someday be pregnant.

[SmileyRose]

55. to it's insane logical conclusion

hysterectomies, failing to fertilize every single ovulation and any sperm emissions not leading to a successful pregnancy for every sperm will have to be criminalized.

[musette_sf]

57. send all your used feminine hygeine products to:

Maryland / HB925 Delegate Don Dwyer
North Dakota / H.R. 1572 Rep. Dan Ruby
Montana / SB 406 Sen. Daniel W McGee
South Carolina / H.3526 Rep. Liston Barfield
Alabama / SB-335 Sen. Hank Erwin

gee, they're all MEN! what a shock, not. bunch of pervo panty sniffers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

76. MMMM boy!!! Tasty!!

I can send those fucksticks some nice, rank, bloody Pampers from a Post Menopausal Momma!!!

Yummy!!!

:wtf: :rofl:

[vinylsolution]

58. I'll gladly retch across the isle....

... and I urge every other Progressive to do so, too.

[donco6]

60. It went down big here.

Let them knock themselves out. No one's voting for this stinker.

[WoodyD]

61. This legislation

just passed in the house in the North Dakota legislature.

ETA more info and comments from Nodakers here: http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2009/02/19/news/topnews/177129.txt

[madfloridian]

62. Here's one of the "personhood" websites.

http://personhoodusa.com/

[madfloridian]

63. From their website...ND declares the unborn to be people.

http://personhoodusa.com/node/40

"Rep. Dan Ruby introduced the "Personhood" bill, which affirms the rights of pre-born humans and states: "For purposes of interpretation of the constitution and laws of North Dakota, it is the intent of the legislative assembly that an individual, a person, when the context indicates that a reference to an individual is intended, or a human being includes any organism with the genome of homo sapiens."

Thousands of calls to legislators were made by pro-life grassroots volunteers who helped with this victory. Only one representative voiced opposition to the bill during the debate of the bill, while overwhelming public support was seen.

"Personhood USA applauds the leadership and support that the North Dakota Life League and North Dakota Family Alliance have shown to make this victory happen," stated Keith Mason of Personhood USA. He continued, "We thank Rep. Dan Ruby for his courage and for being actively pro-life. This great family man with his wife and 10 children are an example to us all."

"North Dakotans have gotten used to cold temperatures like -44 degrees, but they haven't gotten used to child-killing. We applaud and support their efforts to protect every baby by love and by law," commented Cal Zastrow, who, along with his family, worked on the North Dakota bill
on the grassroots level.

The next step for HB 1572 is to be voted on by the ND Senate which could happen in the next two weeks."

They will never quit.

[Vektor]

64. These people are mentally ill. Their reckless, misguided obsession with trophoblastic tissue...

...is downright scary.

This ridiculous preoccupation with the contents of strangers' wombs has nothing to to with caring about "babies" at all. It's about controlling/oppressing women, and involves a bizarre, unhealthy, and deranged obsession with things that are none of their damn business.

It takes unfathomable depths of fanaticism and depravity to think the way these people do, and I really cannot wrap my head around what it must be like to be THAT insane.

[LibertyLover]

65. So will these people also insist

that we no longer have birthdays but rather conception days and compute ages from date of conception?

[Libertas1776]

66. arbitrary BS...

These people are insane...their assumptions of when "life" begins are completely arbitrary and stupid. Now they are going around and saying that eggs are life or some b.s.
I could just as easily argue an arbitrary point like that the sperm is life and needs to be protected. So does that mean these legislatures are going to pass laws making 99.9 percent of all teenage boys in these backwards states criminals guilty of murder. Hell, it would be actually something like genocide since there are hundreds of millions of sperm in one "uh hem" shot.
So are they going to arrest these horny kids...NO because they arbitrarily pick and choose their "issues" for political advancement.

Fuck Mississippi, America's taint. (and Oregon, come on!)

[dolphinsong285]

67. Uh- How About Birth Control?

Don't some methods prevent implantation of the embryo? I see a conflict of interest here. They'll have to choose. Will it be their friends the pharmaceutical companies or ....? This could be their version of a major moral decision.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starry Messenger]

69. Why don't you start your own OP with that...

instead of launching it as a personal attack on Madfloridian? Also, people here are more than pixels on a screen. And they are people who come here to talk, discuss, blow off steam, etc. There is no one way to discuss progressive issues...that's the fun of being progressive. If you disagree with MF's approach, start your own OP without the personal stuff and outline your successes. If you are really about attracting people to your ideas like you say, why not start here? I might like some of your suggestions, but I find your approach repellent.

[mentalslavery]

72. What makes you think I haven't started my own OP

and why should I not present a dissenting view on Madflorida's post so that readers of the post can hear a different take on the issue if there is truly "no one way to discuss progressive issues.."? I could care less about your personal feelings about my approach. If you think rationally about the issues and care more about them, then your blogo-identity then you will think about what I have to say. Additionally, you don't know either of us, for all you know, either of us could be trolls. Think about that and judge a post and the contend of the information and not the "person" behind the blogo-identity, who might be completely fake meaning that you are wrapped up in a lie.

Besides, it is against the rules of DU to "call out a poster by name" in an original OP so I can't really address my problems with Madflorida's approach or argument outside of commenting on her OP. I don't like the rule, but that's the rule. Lot of rules around here for a blog that is supposed foster and support free speech. Personally, I don't believe in moderators or administrators because I think we are adults and can deal with shit without "free-speech babysitters". I am here because the blog is awesome otherwise and people post many good ideas-madflorida included. Additionally, I respect the efforts of the administrators and moderators even though I disagree with some of the rules. Its their blog, its their decision to make. I am but a series of pixels on a screen and like it that way. If you think about it, it is very freeing and dangerous all at the same time.

[Starry Messenger]

75. It's just a critique.

I've never seen an OP by you on the subject. You can type whatever you like. You just seem to be into the idea of making messages attractive to others on the right. I was suggesting that you might start by making them attractive here...I didn't say you were a troll. I'm just saying that you present your ideas here in an unattractive manner. You have presented your case in this thread, and I am unconvinced. Shrug.

[mentalslavery]

84. I never said anything about making messages attractive

but you can not re-read the comment because it has been deleted. Go figure. Sure, a persona can write anything they want here. Oh well, time to-repost

[madfloridian]

77. Guess I missed that.

Thanks for your nice post.

[Starry Messenger]

78. No problem madfloridian.

My pixels are allergic to certain other kinds of pixels. ;) Great OP, BTW. As always, good food for thought.

[ladywnch]

73. a similar bill was voted down 3-1 here in CO in the last election. ...

here in the land of James Dobson and that other mega church clown who got caught messing with male prostitute and meth...I forget his name. The state said 'hell no'. So much for Dobson's influence.

[iverglas]

79. "pre-born humans"

The only thing that ever brings to my mind is "pre-cooked chicken".

Pre-born. Born in advance.

Of what?

[iverglas]

80. oh yeah -- and unborn human beings

They're kinda like undead cadavers.

[iverglas]

81. and on a more serious note

The common thread among all of these efforts is the goal to fill what is becoming known as the "Blackmun Hole" in Roe v. Wade. This is where Justice Blackmun implied in the Roe v. Wade decision that if the case were established that the pre-born was a person, the argument for abortion collapses. In Roe v Wade, it is acknowledged that the "fetus" is fully human, but did not grant the rights of "persons" until birth.

As I implied in the other thread on the topic -- what Roe v. Wade are these people reading?

This is the one I'm familiar with.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0410_0113_ZO.html

... We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer. ...

... In view of all this, we do not agree that, by adopting one theory of life, Texas may override the rights of the pregnant woman that are at stake....

What part of WE DO NOT AGREE do these people not understand?

[NBachers]

82. Okay. Time for states to start repealing corporate personhood.

[pnwmom]

83. Seven STATES aren't pushing this. Some individual jerks are.

I can't imagine this passing in Maryland or Oregon. I don't know about the other states.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Brethren]

86. The anti-abortionists pulled this garbage

in my state this past election. They wanted to make it a state amendment and they lost. I hope they lose in all the other states as well.