I am kind of split over wether I think having pet chimps should be generally outlawed.

[Smith_3]

Or rather, I see it as intimately tied to the debate over pit-bulls. I think a pit-bull is an equally dangerous animal. So for consistency, when we have the debate about whether it should be legal to own a dangerous animal, I think we should treat both cases similar.

[babylonsister]

1. I'll never own a pitbull or a chimp. Both are capable of

ripping someone's face off. It's not worth it.

[Marrah_G]

4. The pit bull is domesticated, the chimp is not

The chimp is far far more dangerous.

[babylonsister]

6. The pit bull 'can be' domesticated, or not.

Over 2 million hits here...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=pitbull+attacks&aq=0s&oq=pit+bull+attacks

[Marrah_G]

10. No- it IS a domesticated animal.

By that I mean the real definition of Domesticated. Domestication takes many many generations of breeding.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

18. Let's bond!

[Marrah_G]

24. Only if it involves strong fruity drinks with umbrellas served in carved out pinapples.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

28. Sounds like a plan

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

13. The pit bull is a domesticated animal

It's just a breed(s) of DOMESTICATED dog.

[babylonsister]

15. Fine. Have fun bonding. I don't have to and don't want to. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

17. Okay...

Guess facts are hard to deal with.

[Marrah_G]

23. Don't get me wrong- I wouldn't have a pit. I don't trust the breeding

I also think people should be required to pass a course before owning any large dog.

I was simply explaining that they are a domesticated animal, by definition.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

27. Hell, I think people should have to take a course to get any dog

A Border Collie isn't that big, but they're the #1 purebred in rescues. People get them because they're "so smart" and they "herd the kids" and they look so cute in EVERY FUCKING COMMERCIAL WITH A DOG.

Of course, Border Collies are extremely active, too smart, will stare at you, the cat and any other dogs for hours, and often will bite kids, because they don't want to take shit from a "puppy."

Despite this, I love my two Border Collie rescues.

[Marrah_G]

30. Yup- people need to be taught to pick dogs more intelligently

Rather then just what is "cute".

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

33. And to get dogs at an appropriate time

Mick: bought at 12 weeks from a really good breeder, dumped off at a kennel in PA less than 2 months later with his papers and vet record. Reason: He ran around too much. He's a fucking Border Collie puppy! All they do is run around, when they get older, they run around inbetween staring at things. Lucky for him, a local sheep farmer took him in.

Beag: Adopted her at 4 months. Her parents worked on a cattle ranch in AZ. The guy who bought her from the ranchers, then moved cross-country to PA, then didn't have time for her. If you're moving from AZ to PA, you do not have time for a puppy. He was going to leave her at the shelter, but his neighbor intervened. So Beag ended up fostering with a Border Collie breeder/trainer.

[Marrah_G]

40. Exactly !

My guy recently took in a young golden retriever that a friend of his ex could no longer handle. She had spoiled this poor thing so badly that he ended up having to give the year old pup back to the breeder so she could find a big farm type home with kids for it.

Now my guy has bred Malamutes, was a dog soldier in the 70's and really knows how to handle the animals, but Jester was to much for him to safely handle.

When winter came he bought a rhino cover for the pool to make sure Jester would not get hurt... but Jester decided to eat the very expensive incredibly strong liner. So up went some fencing.... which he again chewed right through.

We tried everything with this puppy but the bottom line was he was the wrong dog at the wrong time. Tim took him in as a favor and he shouldn't have. Fortunately the breeder had the time to find him the perfect home to deal with his behaviors.

Once I move in with my sons we MAY get a puppy, but one that we choose and on our timeline.

[RobinA]

51. We Got a Dog

who is very Akita-like in many ways, although the nicest, sweetest dog with humans you could ever meet. Our vet found her in the parking lot at Wal*Mart. Very thin (starving), able to take care of herself (helped herself to one of our chickens the first week we had her) and crazy active. We think she was probably dumped because she was so active. At about age 6 she finally settled down to being just active. A wonderful dog, but needs A LOT of space and the ocassional deer to chase.

[RobinA]

48. I Wasn't Aware

that border collies are the number one dog in rescues, but it doesn't surprise me. We have a dog who is very smart, very prey oriented and very active and she is not for everyone. We live on a farm. Down the road are two border collies who roam the field all day watching there horses and generally acting like border collies are meant to act. I can't believe the number of people who say they want a border collie in situations totally unsuitable for that kind of dog. I saw someone walking a border collie in the city once. I'm thinking, You've got to be kidding me. People who want a "smart" pet often do not know what they are asking for.

[undeterred]

62. Exactly.

I have had a border collie mix in the past and it was probably not the best choice. I have a herding dog again now and am much more aware of what he needs: lots of exercise and a job.

[LostinVA]

66. I co-owner of the two Border Collies mentioned above

BCs are perfectly fine and content in the suburbs, but you have to give them what they need, and we do. We'd love to own a few acres and get a handful of sheep, but land is crazy expensive here. MIck goes to herding lessons, and he adores that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

67. I think we should turn Beag into a goosedog and make her earn her keep

[TorchTheWitch]

44. I own a large dog and I think you're right

People absolutely should be educated before being allowed to own a potentially dangerous pet and be absolutely diligent in proper training and proper containment. Before I got my first Akita I read up on everything I could get my hands on about them and dogs in general as well as everything I could find about care and training even though I grew up with dogs. I wish there was some sort of required course that people have to pass before acquiring any pet not just for reasons of safety but proper training and care. Had I not done so, I don't even want to think about the mistakes I would have made that could have turned out disastously... and I WOULD have made those mistakes innocent as they would have been.

I have my second Akita now (the first passed away an old man a few years ago). They're incredibly wonderful intelligent dogs, and they absolutely require knowledgeable and completely diligent ownership.

[LostinVA]

64. Good grief -- I don't like pit bulls, but they are DOMESTICATED animals

They are a domesticated canine, just like Bichons, Border Collies, Mastiffs, and Toy Yorkies. They are all domesticated. Bulls are also domesticated, yet they sometimes attack people. Fluffy little Persians are domesticated, but yet they act like little sociopaths and torture their prey (ie mice, camel crickets, toys).

I wouldn't own a pit bull, because I'm leery of the intentional aggression in some of the breeding lines, but I am not ignorant enough to claim they are undomesticated, nor to compare them to owning a CHIMPANZEE as a "pet." Owning a wolf or a mountain lion would, literally, be safer and less bonkers.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Comparing a dog to a chimp is like comparing a housecat to a bengal tiger.

-1 for intellectual dishonesty.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

2. So do I

Although I'm not sure pit bull owners are as nuts as that woman in Connecticut.

She slept with the damn thing?

That's not right. That's just not right.

[CTyankee]

25. Hey, Tangerine! I am really astonished over this story. Why on earth

didn't her friends recognize the danger and alert officials. This animal was a threat to public safety. It makes no sense, particularly here in staid CT, and I'm not trying to be funny here.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

46. Well, you're there,

and, after all, let's not forget that Chimpy Fucknuts was born in the Nutmeg State, so, clearly, there's a chimp problem there.

Did you listen to her being interviewed on TV? I did, and my first thought was how much her face looks like the mother of Nadya Suleman, the octuplets' breeder. I wonder if there's something about middle-aged women gone mad that makes them look alike.

But I guess her friends just came to think of this "relationship" as normal -after all, it went on for, what, twenty years? After a while, even the strangest things can become day-to-day and not raise eyebrows. I read that CT has a perfectly reasonable law about housing wild animals as pets, but this lady was grandfathered in because she had the chimp before the law was passed. I'll wager some folks are rethinking this today.

Honestly, though, the whole thing is absolutely horrific. The NY Post, which is such a rag, has had, I must admit, the best, sleaziest coverage, so I am, you betcha, devouring it. Mostly, I love the "Comments' from the Post readers, who are even dumber than freepers - YES! THEY ARE!

I just read one that broke me up - regarding this woman's having bathed and slept with the chimp:

"Once you go chimp............"

The Post, rightwing rag that it is, is good for some laughs, really.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02192009/news/regionalnews/its_animal_attraction_155922.htm?sortType=1&page=0#comments

[CTyankee]

61. Oh, dear. This is really TMI!

Well, ya never know about what people do in the privacy of their own homes, I guess.

Gotta go try to scrub this out of my brain now...

[Marrah_G]

3. No- Chimps are FAR more dangerous then a pit bull ever could be

First- They are NOT domesticated Animals.

Second- They are 5 times stronger then a man.

Third- They can climb, open windows, open doors.....

Fourth- They are far more intelligent then any dog

[Smith_3]

5. I don't know. Couldn't a pit-bull kill a chimp in a split second?

At least that is what my cousin probably would say. He has a pit-bull .....

[geek tragedy]

7. A chimp could break a pitbull in half with its bare hands.

Complete mismatch.

[geek tragedy]

9. Dupe delete.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

11. Your cousin sounds like the sort of asshole who shouldn't own a pit bull

And a chimp would rip the face off a pit bull.

50lb dog vs. 200lb primate that is 7 times stronger than a human.

[Marrah_G]

12. No- My bet would be on the chimp unless the pit got in a very lucky first strike.

[Botany]

16. A chimp can pull a man's arm from his body

a pack of dogs maybe but 1 pit bull no chance.

[TwilightGardener]

34. Is "Animal Faceoff" still on the air? This would be a good matchup.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

8. If you think pit bulls are equally dangerous, then you really need to educate yourself on them

Talk to flvegan.

That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I've read on DU about pit bulls ever, including the "locking jaws" nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

14. Chimps are 100 times more dangerous than pit bulls.

1) They can inflict much greater damage in a short period of time, not only having strong jaws but incredibly powerful and prehensile limbs.

2) Pit bulls are actually obedient, loving animals that want desperately to please people (dog fighters actually use this desire to please people to get the dogs to kill other dogs). Chimpanzees are incredibly brutal, complex, unpredictable, and violent animals--in many ways they're just like us.

[ecstatic]

19. Are there cases of pit bulls who, even when raised and trained properly

reverted back to their instincts and killed a human? If so, then your comparison could be valid. I just happen to think a chimp is a much worse creature to have because they are not just guided by instinct and territorial behavior, but also by emotions.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

22. It's still not a valid comparison, because there's examples of all breeds of dogs that just snap

Personally, I think there's often an underlying medical issue when dogs do it. For example, my one friend was attacked by her boyfriend's rottweiler without provocation. The dog was 8 or 9 years old, knew her, and was always very friendly. Turns out, the dog had a malignant brain tumor, which caused the dog's sudden change in personality.

[bluedawg12]

43. Aggression: the top three Dachshund, Chihuahua, Jack Russell Terrier.

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/the-most-aggressive-dog-breeds-dachshund-1

You have to know your breed and your dog's unique personality.

pibbies are very smart, it is like having one perpetual 4 year old in the house already, they have ideas, form plans, make diagrams and schematics, ( I suspect they do on line research) have priorities, have their basic package of the standard issue of doggie basic emotions, require lots of love and attention and room to blow off steam like a big yard.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

45. And, I see it at the dog park

EVERY SINGLE Jack Russell there is aggressive and wants to attack all other dogs. A good portion of the labs are aggression, too. I think there's some bad lab line around here (I blame PA puppy mills).

Meanwhile, all the dogs there from "scary" breeds are pretty nice dogs. Never had a problem with any of them.

[bluedawg12]

53. We don't even take our dogs out, because we fear for their safety

it would break my heart if they were attacked, as domesticated and home and sofa oriented as they are, the little couch potatoes.

The one male pibbie who attacked my boy, was with a young, macho, human male, who imagined he had his dog under verbal control, at a public/dogs allowed beach--and of course the male pit charged my little butterball, who curled up and turned his back, while I jumped up screaming for the attacking dog to stop-and threw myself in between. Thankfully, even the stranger the pit, had enough sense to stop and he turned around.
His owner was a fool, that guy should have been on a leash.

We gave the park one more try.

The next time we ran into a pack of eleven white german shepherds, all running free off leash, like a beautiful pack of wolves. We picked up our dogs and got into our car and left.

Oh yeah and our wonderful aggressive species? On the first trip, while we were down at the beach, someone was breaking into cars in the parking lot robbing them.

Give me dogs over hooman beans any day. :eyes: LOL.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

54. 11 White German Shepherds?

That's insane. They're actually something I wouldn't own, because they're so inbred. I think they're physically and mentally unstable.

I do love German Shepherds, and would love to have a sable one. My mom has a gorgeous little black and red GSD puppy. She made sure to get one from German parents, because of what the AKC has done to the GSD.

[Marrah_G]

69. I am dying to get a big black fluffy German Shepard

But I think my guy is going to pick Malamutes again.... I can TOTALLY live with that.

[geardaddy]

65. We have a Chihuahua mix

and she's very aggressive toward most dogs.

[ecstatic]

52. Wow. Didn't think a chihuahua would make that list

I'm about to google that because my mom has one and she is very jealous of my newborn nephew.

[bluedawg12]

56. there was one on the Dog Whisperer yesterday

and more than once the little taco dog has been implicated in some bad behavior on that show.

Here's the link, I can't recall where i just posted it, so in case it's not close to hand for ya', here you go:

http://fortheloveofthedogblog.com/news-updates/the-most-aggressive-dog-breeds-dachshund-1

I always worry about any dogs and kids, because of competition for alpha status and dominance and kids don't realize nice little doggie is plotting on being pack leader and planning a coup. :eyes:

[bluedawg12]

29. I'm going to ask my "vicious" pit, who is snorng in my bed with a cat curled next to him.

Let's not mix our species metaphors. Chimps are not domestic animals, they are high energy, meaning they need their type of environment, and who, as primates, are very social and a domestic home setting is not close to a normal chimp life.

[TwilightGardener]

36. Yes--there are cases of pit bulls doing just that. However, a chimp still

has more capability to fuck someone up.

[bluedawg12]

38. weinerdoggie

:thumbsup:

[TwilightGardener]

42. Aww, he looks like my dear recently-departed pup (sniff!).

[bluedawg12]

49. Aww, I am sorry for your loss. The little weiner dogs are great pets.

I know we still think of all of our wonderful pets who have crossed the rainbow bridge.

It's really the loss of a little loving friend and family member.

:hug:

[TwilightGardener]

60. Thanks--here he is, posing for the camera last year:

He was a fat boy, but thought himself handsome anyway...

[progressivebydesign]

68. Yes. There have been many pit bull attacks by "family pets".

It's not that, perhaps, the pit bulls mentality is different than other dogs, but when a husky or Lab decides to get aggressive they do not have the physical capacity to kill that way.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

70. Tell that to the lady in France who got the face transplant

[Stevenmarc]

20. You can dress up a chimp but all you have is a ticking time bomb in pants

http://www.centerforgreatapes.org/

[a la izquierda]

21. If it takes a special kind of vet...

to work on an animal...then I would go with the dog. I can't even imagine any ordinary vet being willing to work on a chimp. Or having the means to do so.
My vet works on pit bulls. Hell, my husband, training to be a vet tech in FL a long time ago, assisted with pit bulls. They're dogs, albeit dogs who need responsible owners.
Never in a million years would I want a creature that belongs in the wild. They belong there for a reason- THEY'RE WILD!!! Dogs= not wild.

[Lost in CT]

26. There is a great screed about the evils of Pitbulls.

"He won't hurt you". Check out this thread which popped up after a report of a child being killed in a pit bull attack. We can thank commenter scorp1101 for jumping right into it with the pit bulls are just fine and I know because I own one argument. The remainder of the thread is interesting for two reasons. First, a major theme among many posters seems to be that training (or lack thereof) is the root cause of problems, not something inherent in the breed. Second, it took until the second page of comments before someone said anything about the child who was killed. I guess there's nothing like perspective.

http://scienceblogs.com/bushwells/2007/08/pit_bull_denialism.php


I just love the fact it is from here

[bluedawg12]

35. Ban the most aggressive breed! Dachshunds!

These anecdotals are always a little over the top in moralizing.

Yet, we know nothing of the circumstances other than: evil dog + child victim.

My point is that you should know your dog, know your breed and think about how you allow them to interact with strangers and especially kids. Seriously.

I've been bitten by "America's beloved dog" a golden retriever, who was in the process of attacking my then pet schnauzer.

My pits have been charged by a German shepherd, a lab and another pit ( off leash---in public---ignorant human)thankfully, my guys were unhurt.

Also,other variables, an un neutered male pitbull is a different matter in terms of potential threshold for triggering defense or dominance behavior.

[TwilightGardener]

41. LOL! Come on now. A wiener dog bites you, you can send him flying across the room.

That's why they and other small breeds are called "ankle biters"--they're more likely to snap than larger breeds, but that's because they're small, vulnerable and thus more defensive. They're not going to hang off your face or arm, or attack you in packs of other crazed bloodthirsty wiener dogs.

[bluedawg12]

47. Right. So, it's not innate aggressiveness at the highest level of canines

it's that they are strong and intelligent dogs.

I admit, I am afraid and wary of all dogs when I don't know them and I am not of their pack.

My point is that a responsible pibbie owner should not:

1.)Let a pibbie (or any breed) run around off leash.

2.) I would think twice about adopting a pibbie with kids in the house, because I think they might compete for pack ranking. That's just my own hunch and others with kids and pibbies may have different insights.
I know my guy demands as much love and affection as a little 4 or 5 year old boy. I can't watch TV at night without at some point having one or the other park him/herself in front of me for ear scratches, or to climb on my lap.

And boy, they are very intelligent. My guys hatch plans to get at the tasty, fatty, cat food and how to get the bowls off the counter.

Also, our male was neutered early, before he started the mounting behavior and before he got all muscled up. He is just beautiful, he looks like a beige pooh bear, with floppy ears.

3.)They need rules and a sense of pack dominance, the pibbies need to be respected but the humans are the alpha leaders.

4.) Also, I don't want a mean dog, or a fearful dog, so all training is done with love, no yelling, no hitting, no trying to show who is the biggest baddest dog. We discourage any, slight signs of dog aggression, they are allowed to bark at intruders, but never to growl at us, each other, or the four cats who live with them and they don't. In fact, a couple of the cats are so fond of the dogs they curl up with them, pilot fish around them when they walk, clean the dogs and one of my toms wrestles with out pibbie-boxer mix girl.

Honestly, it's complex and I don't mean to go so far OT, just saying that each animal is unique and when they do go bad and bite or hurt someone, I always wonder about the background details.

Kind of like when a parent raises a serial killer, or a mother who kills her own kids, you wonder where the family went wrong, or is it all just a brain dysfunction? It's hard to know and complex.

[TwilightGardener]

58. If we were to ban animals on sheer aggression, first to go would be

cockatiels--my girl nips anyone who sticks a hand in her cage. But it's not just aggression, of course, it's capability to do serious damage COMBINED with a tendency toward aggression. Great Danes, for example--big powerful dogs, bred for protection/guarding, but apparently don't have much of a fight/attack instinct (at least I've never heard that). They are viewed as gentle giants, fairly or not. My Weimaraner, pretty big dog originally bred to bring down big game, watered down to bird dogs--the breed can sometimes be aggressive/protective, as well as hyper, but not bred to guard and not bred to fight other dogs. Little lap dogs, snap at ya all the time just for looking at them funny, but can't do anything more than give you a nasty owie. Public consensus gradually crystallizes around a perception of a breed or type of animal, and it takes a lot to overcome that. People who have dogs who were primarily bred to fight, or guard, or herd, should always be mindful of the original purposes of the breed and control their pets accordingly--sounds like you're doing that.

[RobinA]

55. I Grew Up

with a dachshund, who raised the three of us. He could be snappy, yes. But we were taught how to handle a dog and what kind of things would make him snap (tail pulling, stepping on his feet, grabbing food from him...). He also gave plenty of warning when his displeasure was growing and was in no way unpredictable. Would I have one with kids? Yes. And I'd teach them how to and how not to treat a dog.

[bluedawg12]

57. Exactly! No one likes their tails pulled.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

31. We have had a pet chimp in the White house for 8 years.

I don't recommend it. Not a good idea.

[bluedawg12]

37. He soiled everything and left a mess.

[Ganja Ninja]

32. Chimps belong either in the wild or in wildlife rescue parks.

They shouldn't be living in a family setting.

[bluedawg12]

59. I agree totally and this chimp had attacked a human once before.

I just heard the injuries to the woman victim and they are beyond nauseating and unimaginably tragic.

This should not have been.

[n2doc]

39. Chimps are wild animals

Pit bull Dogs are domesticated. Big difference. Having a wild animal should, in general, be outlawed unless one has the facilities and training to handle them.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

50. Murder on the Rue Morgue.

Sure it's gothic and sensationalist, but Mr. Poe seems to have a valid point about our simian cousins.

[bikebloke]

63. Males chimps become unmanageable after a certain age.

I was reading a biography of Johnny Weissmuller. In the Tarzan films, Cheeta was played by a female chimp. The males after a certain age become unmanageable.

Though Cheeta became jealous of Maureen O'Hara around Johnny and had to be restrained.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

72. You are kidding, right?

:eyes:
I worked with wolves when I was doing my research work... They are far safer than working with an adult primate or a pitbull. I never had a wolf become aggressive or unreadable. Pitbulls do not telegraph their intentions in the same way as other dogs - They see anything that moves as potential prey. This includes your toddler, your cat, your mother or the neighbor - it is in their breeding and no matter how people here want to sugar coat it, pitbulls are typically not a safe family pet. There are exceptions - but I am not willing to take the chance that I might win the lottery and get a great family pet who would never turn on my kids or the kids who come here to play. And - please.... don't tell me about your loving, wonderful pitbull who never would hurt even a flea. It's like telling me that herding dogs lose their instinct to herd with the "right training." Some things are inherent - a boarder collie will herd the kids, the other dogs the chickens or whatever they can herd. The terrier will dig out the gopher or rat in the backyard. The retriever will bring you the ball a million times and never get tired of bringing you that damned ball. It is in the nature of the beast. Pitbulls were and are bred to kill. That is what they do. Ask people who have had their family pet-pitbull, after 5 years of great behavior, kill the neighbors 3 year old child.

A 14 year old chimpanzee is unpredictable, dangerous and vastly stronger than any human. ANYONE who thinks that keeping a chimp in a domestic situation is safe needs to work with animals for a few years and quit trying to make them in our image - they are dangerous and as they mature they become very territorial and view anyone who interacts with its "significant other" as a threat - The woman who was attacked was seen as a threat - She was seen as someone who may usurp the chimps role within the family structure. The chimp was behaving like a wild animal behaves when the hierarchy of the group is threatened. It tried to kill the one doing the threatening.

People should not be allowed to own chimpanzees. They should be kept with their own kind.

Pitbulls will be kept by people no matter what.