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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:47 PM
Original message
Being "open minded"
How often have you been accused of not being "open minded" on DU? How often have you made that accusation?

I think I am an open minded person. Then again, most people think that about themselves.

For me being open minded means being willing to listen when someone else is stating their case. It means being willing to consider that I might be wrong in my own opinions, that some of my own so-called facts might be in error. This willingness is not entirely unbounded, however, nor do I think it can or should be.

We all have investments in our own current viewpoint, and those investments color how we process differing views. I'm aware of that, and I think I do a decent job of trying to take that into account. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I could freely change my views on many things without fear of being disowned or shunned by family and friends, without having to abandon a career or other major focus of my life -- no major "coming out" traumas would be likely.

A lot of what I'd like to explain about what being "open minded" means to me is best expressed by talking about what being open minded isn't.

For me being open minded does not require, as I get the impression many people expect, that I extend an extremely generous benefit of the doubt to any idea or practice that meets the very weak standard of "well, you can't PROVE it's NOT true!". That a given idea or practice bears the label "religious" or "spiritual" does not, in my opinion, make that idea more deserving of special consideration.

Being open-minded doesn't mean I have to "try it myself and see" before I have a right to voice an opinion on the effectively infinite number of things I could be asked to try before forming an opinion. If someone thinks I should try something before I form any opinion whatsoever, that person should be able to make a good before-hand case about why it's a good investment of my time (or money or effort), why I should consider spending six months consuming nothing but rain water and figs, or three weeks at a "retreat" with their favorite guru.

After all, I don't need to study piano for years to understand and appreciate that people who study piano and practice at it are generally far better piano players (a few rare savants aside) than those who have never studied piano at all. I can see (and hear) clear benefits from such study, without having to engage in that study first myself, and I can make up my mind whether I want that benefit (along with maybe a few other benefits that I can't perceive so well right now, like an improved appreciation of music) enough to make the investment required.

If the supposed benefits from extensive study of some religious or spiritual book, and/or immersion into some religious or spiritual culture or practice, can only be perceived from within, or if the only perceivable benefits are vague, generic, and obtainable in many other very different ways (benefits like a sense of belonging, feeling more at peace, etc.) it is very sensible in my opinion, not close-minded at all, to view such results in terms of well-known human psychology rather than as results of genuine paths to Special Truth.

Speaking of truth (with or without the capital T), being open minded does not mean having to adopt a wishy-washy notion of "personal truth" where any notion of an objective truth is taken off the table. Without going into a long epistemological discussion, that view of truth is more a diplomatic ploy, a technique for ignoring or skirting around conflicts, than it is a workable way of making sense of the world. In the popular analogy of the blind men and the elephant those various men don't each know "an aspect of the truth", they're all simply wrong about what the elephant is. At best each possesses a single piece of misinterpreted data. If yet another blind man comes along and thinks the elephant is a cell phone, he won't even have that much. Why should I be so generous when evaluating the myriad religious and spiritual beliefs of the world (many of which are very dogmatic and make no allowances for only having "a piece of the truth") to think they're all at least as close as the blind men in the fable to some sort of important Truth, and not like my completely off-base guy who thinks he's touching a cell phone?

This brings me to "experience". I would have little reason to argue, to continue the elephant analogy, that any of the men touching the elephant didn't truly experienced what he says he experienced. (Well, I would have to wonder if the cell phone guy wasn't just pulling my leg.) Being "open minded", however, doesn't mean I have to grant someone their own interpretation of their experience, I don't have to accept that each man actually touched a rope or a pillar or a fan. I only need to accept that each man had an experience like touching each of those things.

If you claim Jesus spoke to you, I'm not being closed-minded and "denying your experience" simply because I don't automatically accept that you really, actually were spoken to by Jesus. An open mind does not require me to believe that your experience of an alien abduction was a real abduction by real aliens.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. the question is
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Shameless Self Promotion.
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. never- nobody has ever told me i wasn't being open-minded
& i have never said that to anyone here. so sorry :7 :hi:
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. How close-minded of you...
..to deny all of those people who think you're close-minded! You're in such denial you don't even think they exist! ;)
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grannie4peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. i don't know what others think , i only know it if they tell me :)
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out
as someone used to tell me. :D
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Unfortunately...
...most of the people you need to say that to have already splatted their cerebrum on the floor, making communication of this important idea very difficult. :)
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. I try to introduce a historic perspective to some of the issues here. nt
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. People that ask others to be "open minded" are usually selling shit
Just one of the things I've noticed in life. Like when someone says "I'll be totally honest with you", 9 out of 10 times that's when they are lying.

If someone says just be opened minded for a minute, what they are saying is turn off your B.S. filter and let me stuff this in your head.

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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Here's another warning signal (for me)
If I find myself saying "well, I'll give so-and-so the benefit of the doubt." It's never, not ever worked out. If you sense that someone is a scam artist, don't be polite. The real question is "why am I questioning this person in the first place?"

Also, anyone who advertises qualities about themselves emphatically is not to be trusted. For example:

I'm not a competitive person.
I'm a very spiritual person.
I don't have a racist bone in my body! (Now, if someone else says that about you great. If you say it about yourself though...)
I'm a very giving person.

(and so forth)

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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-20-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. I disagree
especially since you contradicted yourself (the phrases "open minded" and "I'll be totally honest with you" are mutually exclusive)

Staying within the question posed by the OP, I feel that when someone tells me, or I tell them, to be "open minded", its a request to put aside your preconceived notions of the subject matter and hear an alternative. When that request turns to shit is when the alternative is backed up by falsehoods and assumptions (religion, for example)
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sufrommich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Accusing someone of not being "open minded" is
a very lazy attempt at suppressing opinion.It never works.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
I respect belief, but not beliefs
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. if you are going to argue from one philosophic point of view, it helps if you have
Edited on Thu Feb-19-09 03:56 PM by KittyWampus
a thorough UNDERSTANDING of the opposing point of view.

And Understanding is very different than a rote memorization and intellectual grasp of information.

You can't critique a car until you get into a car and drive it. You can parrot reviews you've read. But all you're doing is imitation and not expressing individual understanding.

You can go to school and accept the information that atoms are real. But until you actually look under a microscope, your knowledge is received.

Furthermore, your Understanding of what you see under that microscope is heavily influenced by the Linguistic framework that shaped your Mind.

The FACT is, Materialists such as yourself have a world view that was shaped by your language and culture. Your Materialistic world view influences how you perceive Reality. It dictates what you investigate and how you investigate and your attitudes toward all Knowledge. It keeps you from really Understanding certain things and prods you into accepting other things completely unchallenged. It also causes you to reflexively discount and discard anything that falls outside your Materialistic box as useless.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. But as is patently clear from your posting history...
...you don't display any understanding of the "materialist" point of view that you criticize. So how can you claim it is necessary to do this when you do not?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. funny.
:thumbsup:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. +1...
good point :)

Sid
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Go back to my piano-playing analogy.
Show me what I have to gain, just like a piano player who has practiced long and hard can show me the benefits of study and practice, what I might gain through further study. The piano player can show me without me having to do everything he's done first. Can you do the same?

Also, which non-materialistic thing do you think I'm missing? Of the uncountable non-materialistic things you think I'm missing the experience of, which should I try first and why? How much time should I put into each?
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Speaking of things one might "reflexively discount and discard"...
...I guess questions and challenges to your posts fall into that category.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
15. A person is open-minded if she/he agrees with me, otherwise they are closed-minded.
:sarcasm: with grains of truth.

Problem is with issues that are divisive and polarizing, e.g. abortion.

IMO there is no compromise possible between people who sincerely believe life starts at conception and oppose all abortions versus people who believe life starts at birth and would allow the woman to make the choice.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
19. I agree completely.
I have the right to stand my ground. It helps, as you said, if I equally agree that I could be wrong. For example, I know for a fact that those who believe my partner and I are in a "sick" relationship because we're gay are wrong. I know this for a fact. Being open-minded towards those who think that I am sick or evil at my core is preposterous. On the other hand, even if I were NOT gay, and didn't have the experience of being gay, I would also know that those who say that gay people are "sick" are wrong. And being "open-minded" towards them is nothing more than cowardice.

I am open to the idea that my enemy, the homophobe, (and, yes, they are my enemy) might be a worthwhile person in other dimensions: they might help a poor neighbor, feed a sick cat, have a good sense of humor, love their grandkids, and so forth. It is PRECISELY for this reason that (and this reason alone) that I'm not a terrorist.

Having hope for people doesn't mean I have to humor any psychological damage, or ballot violence they might promote.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-09 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. I've always said it was one thing to have an open mind; it's quite another to
have a mind that's so open that the wind whistles through it. Being open-minded doesn't necessarily mean the complete abandonment of common sense.
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distantearlywarning Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
23. Excellent rant!
:yourock:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
24. If you keep your mind too open your brain will fall out.
A degree of "skeptical" dogmatism is necessary if one wants to flesh out an idea and get a chance to test it. But in the end there is only a single Reality and if I think some woo-woo or religious person has views that don't fit reality I'll say so.
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11 Bravo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. The problem with being too "open-minded" is that your brains can fall out.
Some things are simply, immutably, and inexorably wrong; and therefore don't even deserve to have a voice in the discussion.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
26. Open-mindedness is a two way street...
And often, when I've been accused of not being open-minded, it's by people who are trying to convince me that they're "right".

Meaning...IMO...that they themselves are not being as open-minded as they want ME to be.


I think what people either can't...or don't want to...admit is that someone else's opinion could be just as valid as their own.



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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. There's nothing wrong with trying to convince someone that you're right.
The right and the wrong is in the quality and accuracy of your supporting arguments.

I think what people either can't...or don't want to...admit is that someone else's opinion could be just as valid as their own.

If an argument is over, say, "What's the best song ever written?" it's kind of silly for anyone to be insistent about absolute right and wrong over subject matter with so much room for interpretation, so much dependence on individual taste.

If an argument is, however, about something like "Does Bigfoot exist?" the opinions of "yes" and "no" can't both be right. Admitting that either of those two opinions might be the right one does not require admitting that the probability is equal, that both opinions are equally well founded, and it certainly doesn't mean playing the mental gymnastics of "personal truth" to try to diplomatically claim that both opinions are somehow right at the same time.

Suppose I want to convince someone that Bigfoot does not exist. Are you saying that the very act of arguing that point is a denial that the other person could be right, that it's a denial of that person's right to disagree, that merely arguing my position over theirs shows that I can't accept any possibility at all that Bigfoot might exist? I'd have to be completely quiet to demonstrate that I realize a chance exists that I'm wrong?
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