Please Advise.

[JFN1]

I have to give you some background, so please be patient with me, as I really need your advice. I don't normally ask this, but if you think it worthy, please recommend this post so I can get as much feedback as possible. Thank you.

I live in a small town (about 17,000 people) in south central Illinois. I was born and raised a few miles south, and consider myself a native of Illinois, despite my decade-long sojourn on the West Coast. We moved from Oregon, to help care for our niece Brittani, who just completed her second double lung transplant in less than two years. I've lived here in Shittyville (I'll just call the town that for now) for about two years.

So out West, water conservation is king. You conserve water, else you may run out. Literally. So I learned, living there, to be frugal with water.

The past two years living in this town, we've found our water consumption to be, well, horrendously high.

Typically, we use about 3500-4000 gallons of water per month. Looking at my past bills, this has been our average usage for more than ten years.

Since moving to Shittyville, our average usage has been 7200 gallons per month. That is almost twice our historic average usage.

So about five months ago, our old washing machine had died and we'd replaced it with a brand new, higher efficiency washer, and consequently, we expected our water bill to go down.

But the bill actually went up after the first month of having the new washer.

So when I went to pay the bill that month, I took a bunch of my bills from Oregon with me to show the city water manager what our historic usage was, and to complain that we did not see how our water usage could be so high. I explained about the new washer, too, and how I felt that using it instead of our 20 year old washer should have lowered our consumption, and thus our bill.

The city water manager agreed to have our old water meter checked for accuracy. They pulled the old meter, and put a brand new one on in it's place - it actually read 'zero' when they hooked it up.

Over the last four months since the meter change, our water usage has averaged 3700 gallons. Our usage is now right in line with what it had been for more than a decade in Portland.

So I went to the city water manager and asked him how the meter had tested out. he told me the meter had been reading - are you ready? 66% SLOW. Meaning, that according to him, my actual usage - per month - would have been in excess of 20,000 gallons.

I told him obviously the meter was broken, and had been over registering my consumption. He said, and I quote. "That's not so. How do I know you didn't have another family living with you and they moved out when we changed the meter?"

I won't go into the arguments that followed, as there were plenty over many days, but that is the city's position. It can't be the meter. it has to be that I was trying to cheat the city somehow, even though I have ten plus years of evidence to the contrary. The city water manager told me, with the mayor and the city manager in the room, that it was IMPOSSIBLE for a water meter to over register consumption. Not unlikely. IMPOSSIBLE. About five seconds on Google debunked that piece of misinformation.

So, now why I need advice:

The city manager called me yesterday to inform me that the city had retested the meter, and that no, I could not have the meter for an independent test. I told him, fine, thanks for the call, will you put it in writing for me?

He replied, "No."

So I went to the mayor today to ask her for the letter. She refused, as well, despite the fact that she knows me - though I wouldn't call us more than friendly acquaintances.

I told her the city manager had been quite rude to me on the phone, and he interrupted me, saying, "That's not true. I had you on speaker phone and the mayor heard all of it." I asked the mayor if this was true, and she answered, "Yes."

720 ILCS 5/14-2: "Knowingly and intentionally using an eavesdropping device {which, under the statute, would include speaker phones, video recorders, and tape recorders} for the purpose of hearing, or recording, all or any part of any conversation . . . unless the participant does so (A) with the consent of all of the parties to such conversation."

720 ILCS 5/14-4 makes the first offense under this statute -- a Class 4 felony.

So the mayor and her city manager committed a Class 4 felony yesterday.

Should I file a criminal complaint?

I like the mayor, but the city manager has been city manager for 12 years. He's the power behind the throne. He lost the last mayor the election by pushing him to support the building of a $57 million high school - for our town of 17,000. A town down the road a piece, Carbondale, with a population of 45,000, recently built a new high school there - total cost, $4 million.

I don't think any elected official should get a free pass, but doing this opens me up to harassment by the police (again, the city manager owns this town, its a small town, I wasn't born here, so I'm a 'foreigner' here - I'm not kidding), publicity I don't want or need (I live a very quiet life with my disabled vet husband), and possibly lots of other problems.

But it is my duty, I think, to file a criminal complaint for this. And I've had my fill of elected officials breaking the law with no accountability, and to have it happen right in front of my face...well...

I am very afraid. Please advise...

[babylonsister]

1. I can't advise you because you might find yourself in

more trouble than it's worth. I can see the powers that be harrassing you, and I'd be outraged, too. Do you know the former mayor? Maybe he could give you some good advice. Sounds like something fishy is going on if they're being so obstinate in not cooperating.

OT, but how is your niece doing?

Edit to add: do you have a decent local paper that'd be willing to stir the pot?

[JFN1]

6. Brittani is doing absolutely fantastic, thank you for asking!

It's like night and day, to the last transplant. She should be out of immediate danger of rejection within the next two months, and should be home (finally!) shortly after that.

Edit to add: No local TV stations, and the city manager sits on the board of the town's main newspaper...the other paper is a low circulation advertising rag.

[damntexdem]

19. Screw that! Turn them in! Let the chips fall where they may.

And if necessary, move back to Oregon.

[MineralMan]

2. How much money is involved here?

You may want to consider whether pushing this makes any sense. I'm just talking about expediency, really. You could push it, but you'd probably not fare all that well. They have the meter in their hands.

You'd be talking about legal fees, a lawsuit, and a great deal of hassle.

Sometimes, a guy just has to swallow things, as bad as they may taste. A ticked off city manager can, if he/she wants, create a whole world of problems. Code violations...all sorts of ugly things.

[JFN1]

5. We figure we've been overcharged about $560

over the last two years. Not a ton of money, but still...we're on a fixed income, we don't have extra dollars to throw around...

[MineralMan]

24. Well, there would definitely be attorney's fees that would

no doubt exceed the $560. There's no way to do this without involving the legal system, I'm afraid.

The $560 is gone. You might well end up throwing good, new money down the same hole. Think carefully.

[qb]

3. My problems had to do with divorce law, but I advise a huge dose of caution.

In my experience law has nothing to do with what's right or just. The city manager sounds like a crazy asshole I wouldn't want to mess with. If it were me I'd try to be content with the new water meter, forget about the past over-payments and hope the city manager forgets about me.

[renate]

31. yeah, that's the thing

If filing a complaint meant there'd be a good chance (let alone a guarantee) of anything coming of it, that'd be one thing... but the legal process really doesn't always have much to do with right v. wrong. And this sounds like the kind of town where all the local-government people know each other and aren't likely to shake things up for the sake of a relative stranger.

Sucks, doesn't it? But I'd be inclined to let it go, too. Luckily, the news about much more important things (Brittani!!!) is good, which can make frustrations like these more endurable.

[Still Sensible]

4. You certainly need to consult an attorney

in your jurisdiction. I would be shocked if in most places a speaker phone is legally considered an eavesdropping device or, even if it is, that the courts and district attorneys are very keen on prosecuting something that has become as commonplace as that.

Personally, I would be thrilled that I got a new meter that appears to be accurately reflecting my water usage. You already know how the city would respond (if there was a problem with the meter it was erring in the other direction). Realistically, if I am the city I would have already destroyed the old meter so even if you filed something and thus, created a legal a right to independently test the meter, it may already be too late.

Another possibility: Is there a consumer advocate on one or more of your local television stations? Especially if you can back up your claims with a little evidence, the city government certainly wouldn't want the bad publicity. If it comes down to your word against theirs without corroborative evidence the TV ombudsman won't be willing to step in.

Good Luck.

[JFN1]

8. It's Illinois State law

and though people have tried for the past decade to have it overturned, it still sticks. And it is a law I totally agree with. i think i have a right to know who is listening to my telephone conversations, and i also think i have a reasonable expectation that i am not talking for more than the single person on the line. If the city manager wants the mayor in on the call, he has a legal obligation in Illinois to tell me.

And yes, the law can be ridiculous. The same laws that makes it a felony for the mayor and city manager to do what they did also makes it a felony for you to video tape the umpire speaking to a baseball player at your kid's game, since you did not actually get his explicit permission, and since the law classifies the umpire's verbal statements as "conversation."

[napi21]

7. FWIW, MANY people in Atlanta have been having BIG problems with the city overbilling

for watgefr usage. As far as I can tell, we're talking hundreds if not thousands of people! Every one of them was told they were wrong and must have used the water. Then they contacted the local TV station, who constantly contacteed the water dept. Finally last week the WC manager admitted they MAY be having software & personnel problems. This situation was really serious. Some people went from paying $15/mo. to getting billed over $1,000/mo!

Based on that, I would suggest contacting your local TV station to see if they have a consumer advocate and what they would suggest. A one on one with the water co. doesn't seem to get you anywhere.

[TwilightGardener]

9. I have learned not to fight city hall, just hope that they leave you alone--

next thing you know, if you pursue them, you're going to get letters saying that your trees need to be trimmed, your cat was seen running loose, your grass got over five inches, etc. I can't help but see all small-town city halls and councils as at least a little corrupt, because they know you, your family, they know where you live, they know what they can get away with. I hate 'em. Good luck to you, whatever you decide. edit to add: to echo another poster upstream, I have also learned that law has little to do with fairness or right and wrong. It has everything to do with who you know, what you have, who you pissed off, etc.

[JFN1]

10. If they do come after us

they'll have to deal with the fact of my husband being a disabled combat veteran, my niece getting her second lung transplant, and the trauma our family has been through from that, only to have to deal with a corrupt, felon-committing city administration hell bent on hiding the truth about their water department. So I don't feel as if I am completely unarmed in this, but then again...they are the city, and we're just two people...and this is why I am afraid.

But I also want to do the right thing, regardless of the risk. Isn't it my duty as a citizen? Or am I just a starry-eyed idealist without a clue?

[TwilightGardener]

20. I can't tell you what to do--you have to first deeply examine your own

motives for wanting to pursue charges or file a complaint: is it because you are angry with them for the meter thing, or is it sincerely because you're concerned about the public welfare? In other words, what happens if you DON'T do anything about the speaker phone incident--is there a concern that all citizens are being potentially harmed by this privacy intrusion? If so, then you would need to see a lawyer first to discuss your concerns--they can research past Illinois case law and find out what past judges have ruled about speaker phones violating eavesdropping law. And are you the person to be spearheading this effort? If you have other things on your plate, are you willing to keep this ball rolling until its conclusion, or are you acting in the heat of the moment, and two months from now you'll wish you had just kept your mouth shut? Are you willing to live with the consequences of going forth with this--will your neighbors support you, or think you're a troublemaker out for revenge? Will you be able to live with revenge from the manager or mayor, which may feel like harrassment but come in the guise of perfectly legal actions against you? All stuff to consider. You have some time to take action--why not give it a few weeks, and see how you feel? You might lose some of your urge to do something, or something might come up later on that makes this stuff look very unimportant to pursue--I will say that pursuing charges on principle (because it seems like the right thing to do, because they shouldn't get away with it), might seem like pretty thin gruel after a while.

[JFN1]

23. Well, my husband always says

that if they are doing it to us, they are doing it to others. And most people are afraid of standing up for themselves, don't have the time to do it, don't have the knowledge to do it. We have all three, and thus, we have a responsibility to protect those others while fighting for our own rights.

It sounds pretty on paper, but in practice it is very messy. I've stood up for myself with big corporations, with State governments, but every time I've involved myself in a city-level dispute, ultimately it gets really, really messy.

Yes, I'm pissed, but I also believe in what my husband says. So yes, some of my ego is involved, but it also seems wrong that they treat me (and presumably others) this way - and break the law (even if it is a stupid law, they are OFFICIALS), and there are no consequences for them.

For a senior on Social Security (for example), being overcharged on a water bill could make the difference between food and hunger, too. So there's that consideration as well.

[TwilightGardener]

25. Have you thought of bringing this up at a city council meeting first?

Asking them in front of your fellow townspeople why they feel they are entitled to listen in on citizens speaking to individual officials? Asking them if they know about state law in that regard--perhaps the city attorney is present at meetings? That all gets entered into the meeting record, so they will have to put themselves on the record defending that behavior. I won't go into the water usage, because that's fixed. It's hard to prove they overcharged you, solely based on your past bills and history of usage, so I'd give that up.

[JFN1]

33. Excellent advice, thank you.

I will do that - the next meeting is on March 2nd - I plan to attend. Thanks you!!

[janet118]

39. Does your local paper cover the council meetings?

If so, others might read about your problem with the meter and demand that theirs be checked out as well. At the very least, they might monitor their own water use and find that they too are being overcharged. I would forget about the eavesdropping thing. Stick with meter malfunction issue - it affects everyone in your town and you won't be standing alone at town hall.

[JFN1]

41. They do cover the meetings

I usually skip that section of the paper - not anymore - thank you.

[The Hope Mobile]

11. My one major piece of advice is get the heck out of shittyville.

[JFN1]

13. Oh, if I only could...

we own a house here, no way we'll be able to sell it for what we paid for it, thanks to the crisis...house across the street sold a while back, nearly identical to ours, for $12,000 less than we paid for ours - and it wasn't in foreclosure. We don't have $12,000 to pay the bank the difference, so we're stuck here until house prices go back up...

[The Hope Mobile]

53. I've lived in Shittyville, Michigan and it sucks sometimes.

However, now I live in CA again (which I love) BUT there can be problems with utilities here too. Our electric bill a few years ago got really screwed up. Somehow the ID number for our meter got confused with another woman's and they were charging us for hers and ours. They figured it out, admitted it, replaced out meter and then sent us a bill for the same amount anyway (about $850/mo. for 3 months about half of which we were out of town- which is more than triple our usual bill) We protested and they said they could break it down . . . but in the end . . . we still had to pay the same amount or it would've gone on our credit report. Absolutely infuriating but they are a such a bureaucracy we could never get a straight answer. Honestly, there are SOME advantages to a small town but this situation sounds ridiculous.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. My advice

Get a hobby.

[JFN1]

14. But rabblerousing is such fun

NOT!!

[roody]

15. I'd go underground.

They must be doing this to everybody. Where is the money going? Start talking to your neighbors about their water usage bills.

[JFN1]

16. Sad this is so true in America

land of the free, home of democracy. But fear your government!!!!!!

[roody]

21. I changed my message---sorry.

Don't give up.

[Venceremos]

17. The key words are "eavesdropping device"

You say that under the statute, the speaker phone is considered an eavesdropping advice. Under Illinois law, it is very unlikely that a speakerphone would be legally regarded as an eavesdropping device.

Illinois courts have found that telephone extensions are not eavesdropping devices. Generally it's legal in Illinois to listen to the conversations of others on an extension, but it's illegal to record such conversations.

Although the speakerphone has not been specifically addressed by the Illinois courts, I think the courts would apply the same logic as they did in ruling an extension is not an eavesdropping advice.

Sources: Cassidy v. ABC, 377 N.E.2d 126 (Ill. App. Ct. 1978); People v. Wilson, 554 N.E.2d 545, (Ill. App. Ct. 1990); People v. Barrow, 549 N.E.2d 240 (Ill. 1989); People v. Britz, 541 N.E.2d 505 (Ill. App. Ct. 1989); People v. Gervasi, 434 N.E.2d 1112 (Ill. 1982); People v. Shinkle, 539 N.E.2d 1238 (Ill. 1989).

Although you might find a lawyer to sue them in civil court, your case will probably be dismissed at the lower court level. In the unlikely event that you win in the lower courts, you'll most likely be overturned at the appellate level. And I seriously doubt your local prosecutor will bring criminal charges against them, for the same reasons.

[JFN1]

18. There's a lawyer in Illinois who agrees with you

His article is entitled, "Does Illinois' eavesdropping statute make felons of us all?"

http://www.effingham.net/attorney/index_files/eavesdropping.htm

[Venceremos]

28. I was an Illinois paralegal

Paralegals do all the work, and the lawyers get all the glory, kind of like nurses to doctors. ;)

I got out of it a few years ago to start a home based business. But I wrote numerous appellate briefs for my employer, mostly in the Illinois 3rd, 4th and 5th district appeals courts (everything south of Chicago). I forget the exact percentages, but the plaintiff loses on appeal an inordinate amount of the time in those courts.

[SmileyRose]

22. Pursue at your own peril.

If tilting at this windmill makes you happy than more power to you. However, the city changed out your meter and the problem has been fixed. You want another pound of flesh but if you can get it at all, it's going to cost you in a variety of ways (not the least of which is burning up time and thought that would otherwise be spent on something more likely to benefit you and your community)

[Shakespeare]

26. Call your local newspaper and ask to speak with someone at the city/local news desk.

Explain your situation thoroughly but succinctly. If you can get a reporter to start sniffing around, that might get city hall to sit up and fix your meter (and refund the overage).

[EFerrari]

27. Has anyone tested the pipes from your property to the street?

[JFN1]

43. We had them inspected when we bought the house

There were no leaks reported to us from the meter to the house, and we had mediocre water pressure until the meter was changed - it is vastly improved. Also, the well the meter is located in used to always have water in the bottom - it has been bone dry since they changed the meter out. I pointed this out to the city water manager - he said his people had never seen water in the well. When I showed him the pictures I'd taken on several different occasions of the well filled with water, he only glanced at them and changed the subject...

[EFerrari]

44. I'm afraid you need a lawyer. I can't think of who else could help you

through this or even if you win, what the win will cost you in terms of comfort in your town. :(

[JFN1]

45. I know...damned if I do...

and if I don't, they are further emboldened to mistreat others...aren't they...?

[EFerrari]

46. Maybe taking some time to look and listen to see what happens

to other people is in order? If you become a member of a group, it's safer for everyone.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. :hug:

[ipfilter]

29. Choose your battles wisely.

Only pick a fight you can win. The only people who can successfully fight with city hall are rich landowners and property developers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. You can't build a decent high school for only $4 million

That's not even enough for an elementary school. The last high school we built in my district was $30 million.

But yes, I think you should pursue this. Maybe you should go to the state AG?

[JFN1]

32. We're a small rural area

no indoor pools, no big computer or science labs, nothing fancy. Most people either work in the mines or farms in the area, and for the small number of manufacturing companies in the area. They built a new athletic field, too, which I understand cost an additional $3 million. But $57 million for a school around here is, well, extravagant beyond belief. A couple years ago Blaggo visited a small town down south a ways, population about 4,000 and promised to commit half the funds necessary for their new high school - the State gave them $2 million towards the project...the last graduating class only had 185 students, too.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. $57 million is ridiculous

Way too much.

[UpInArms]

34. avoid litigation and surgery if at all possible

yes, it sounds as though you have been mal-treated and there are people in power in your small town that should be eating from soup kitchens.

Sometimes, you just need to know when to walk away - knowing what you know and letting those people know that you know.

I suggest a letter to the editor at the paper - if they don't print it, send it to the paper in the community nearest you with the addendum that your local paper would not print it and that the city manager sits on the paper's board

good luck!

[crispini]

35. I'd let it go.

I mean, they pulled your meter, you got a new one, problem fixed. I don't see why you're insisting on figuring out who was wrong. They're not going to give you a refund of what you paid, anyway, and trying to assign blame is not going to get you anywhere.

[JFN1]

37. Because we let it go for eight years with Bush

and look where that got us...and I know you're right, too. This isn't a fight I'm likely to win, even if it is a good fight. I can't stand the thought of letting elected officials conduct themselves as if their portion of America is their own personal fiefdom. Had enough of that the last eight years - maybe I'm sensitive now...

The first thing the city water manager said to me, though, and this really gets to me: "How do I know you didn't have another family living with you?"

I mean, come on. That's a pretty big assumption to make. Then he claims it is IMPOSSIBLE for a meter to over-register. This is just a bold faced lie.

So rather than admit there was a problem with the meter, rather than take responsibility, they question my integrity. And then lie to me. So treat me like I'm a lowlife, or a criminal, if I say you have a problem with your equipment. Then lie to justify your rather gross misconduct.

I really don't care about the money - its already long spent.

But this other stuff...

[crispini]

51. Dude, you have to live in this small town with these people.

And I bet they mostly have a go-along-and-get-along attitude, yes? That's how small town people are.

Bet you dollars to doughnuts the water guy didn't want to say it was overbilling you because he was afraid you'd ask for money back and he then would have to account to his manager for that kind of thing and he might get his own ass in trouble. Now you're pushing him on it, so he's going to stick to his story and dig his heels in. That's his only choice.... CYA.

You get more flies with honey, honey......

[JFN1]

57. I feel I did start with honey

and was met immediately with a big dose of vinegar...I live here and do not want to "fight city hall." But something is wrong when the first answer to a problem is an attack on one's character and honesty...

[Soylent Brice]

36. my opinion, and why

i would turn them in, file all necessary complaints, and go to the media.

i have a family, don't like too much attention, etc.

BUT,

cops and authority will fuck with you regardless. no one has control over that. besides, maybe you're not the only being fucked with.

5 to 1

strength in numbers is how anyone survives anymore. you may be the push that's needed for others in your town that might be getting ripped off in other or similar ways to come forward as well.

[Truth2Tell]

38. My Advice:

Forget litigation and forget the eavesdropping. It's pretty clear you're not going to get anywhere by using official channels unless you find a rogue independent City Council member, crusading pro-bono attorney or somesuch to champion your cause. Highly unlikely.

This is job for the independent press. You need to find an enterprising reporter or publication in southern IL to look into this. In all likelihood this is an issue that goes well beyond your own situation. An intrepid investigator would find a larger sample of citizens willing to let them pull and test their meters, and/or compare actual usage samples with utility statements. If this is a systemic problem the reporter would have a bombshell on their hands - especially in light of the official obsfucation.

Where there is the official smoke of this kind of wagon-circling there is usually the fire of bigger corruption/incompetence. I think finding the right indy journalist is your best hope. Check the Universities or the alternative weeklies. This path may or may not wash out for you financially, but it might be the only path to some justice.

Just my two cents.

[JFN1]

40. Funny you should mention that

While I was waiting for the city water manager, the first time I went to speak with them about changing the meter, there was a guy at the window complaining to the payment lady about how high his water bill was, and how he did not understand it, since it was just him and his wife. I remember the guy's name - he owed a $300 bill for one month!!

[Truth2Tell]

42. Yep, there is something stinky here.

Someone needs to start looking under the beds.

[ColbertWatcher]

47. Have you discussed any of this with your neighbors?

You know, those people who are also paying way too much for water.

[JFN1]

49. I hardly ever see them, so, no...

But I need to, you are right. The subdivision I am in was built in 1982, and there are about 50 houses here. Thank you.

[ColbertWatcher]

52. Safety in numbers I always say.

Also, thank you for not being offended by my minor snarkiness.

I didn't intend it to sound so nasty, but it did and I didn't mean it to, but you didn't take it that way, so. All's good.

Another thing you might want to do is if you can find out from your neighbors what they've been paying, try to find out how it differs from other neighborhoods.

See if someone at the local college/university might want to study it for credit, etc.

[rosesaylavee]

50. I understand the impulse to fight it...

but if you think the meter will be read accurately now, I would let it alone. If you think they are not going to read it accurately, well, then you need to take it on.

I have lived in Central Illinois. I grew up in Northern Illinois and I was still the foreigner. I think that is common in smaller communities. But you will not win even if you win. Take a breath and let it out and turn the page. It's not worth the heartache to yourself AND your other family members. The mayor and the city manager are buffoons and they broke the law. Probably not the last one they break. Probably more people think that than you may think. And probably, they will get their comeuppance one day. I hope you are there to watch.

Best wishes to a speedy resolution here.

[Greyhound]

54. "Jake, it's Chinatown (Illinois), let it go".

Trust me on this, please. I've been down this road (well, one that runs parallel to it) and you live in the most corrupt state in the union, if you keep pushing they can and will ruin your life, and you still won't get any justice. It is not worth it. If your conscience won't let you live with this, leave.

[ecstatic]

55. You're in a very small town... but please make sure your own backyard is spotless,

so to speak... because they will come after you. Depending on who the mayor knows, you might find yourself getting harassed by the police with tickets, etc.

[ffr]

56. H20 meter

similar problem here, except the water main valve broke and flooded 22,000/month into the ground for a month and a half before I caught it. It happens.