Why isn't there more outrage at DU about Rihanna?

[CTyankee]

I just saw, for the third time, that photograph of her face after Chris Brown beat her and I am truly shaken. What I can't understand is that here at DU there has been very little discussion of it, mostly in the Lounge, according to a search I did.

Is it something that we just shrug and say "sh*t happens" to? Or do we just not care that much?

Personally, I'd like to see us have a bigger discussion right here in GD about the physical abuse of women in our society. Surely we have people right here in our midst who have seen it in their families or had it happen to them.

So, DUers, what do you say?

[tammywammy]

1. I feel so bad for her

I haven't read much, but I saw something that she was thinking of going back to him. That's so sad. I hope she has the courage to stay the heck away from him and make sure they prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law.

I would think seeing a high profile woman like her go through this and leave him, would be a sign of encouragement to other women that are in the same position.

[glowing]

2. I think its because she's wealthy... Its not like she's dependant on him

other than to be involved in a circle of fight, make-up b.s. Some women stay because of money, love, dependency. I guess if I had millions of dollars, the last thing I'd accept is anybodies shit... AND you can't tell me this is the first time he's "snapped".. fights only escalate into that kind of misconduct. I've seen it.. Its never the first time.. this is just the first time it went far enough that she needed medical treatment.. and is she going back?

[seemslikeadream]

3. wealth has NOTHING to do with it

that's the biggest misconception folks have

[scarletwoman]

18. No, it at one level it DOES. She's not trapped in an economically dependent situation like many

abused women who don't leave their abusers. She's not facing certain poverty or homelessness if she ends the relationship. She doesn't have to escape to a women's shelter in order to protect herself. For too many women, the prospect of starting their lives over with virtually nothing is far more frightening than staying with their abuser.

Obviously, being wealthy has no bearing on the wrongness of being physically abused. Nor does it have any bearing the complex psychological dynamics involved in choosing to stay in an abusive relationship. The difference lies in the economic dynamics of the relationship. If one is not economically dependent on the abuser, one has more options available for escaping the abuse, if one chooses to do so.

sw

[seemslikeadream]

22. psychological dynamics involved in choosing to stay in an abusive relationship

That's why I say the money is not the problem, and for a whole lot of women they don't see themselves having a choice, willing is a point that has to obtained some just don't have the will, it's been taken from them.

[scarletwoman]

39. She is not isolated and alone, she has family and friends at her side.

Yes, leaving an abuser is a matter of "will", but having tangible resources like economic independence and the love and support of family and friends is a major advantage.

If she chooses to stay in the relationship it won't be because she has no viable options -- unlike the millions of abused women who are hidden and isolated and economically disadvantaged.

sw

[goclark]

69. I agree, women should not be abused ~ period.

Does it help to have money - of course but that does not change the hurt in the heart.

The feelings of self doubt and shame are still there.

Trust me.

[seemslikeadream]

105. The feelings of self doubt and shame are still there.

I trust you and you can trust me on that one also

[goclark]

154. Absolutely

:hug:

:cry:

[DailyGrind51]

167. And some would just find "nice guys" boring and not give them the time of day.

[JNelson6563]

74. Oh yes it does!

Many women stay in abusive relationships (physical or emotional) BECAUSE OF POVERTY! Poverty is a blight to our society on more levels than anything and it's high time we recognized the role it plays in domestic abuse.

Julie

[Control-Z]

149. Oh, believe me, it does.

It may not be the outstanding reason for all woman, but it is still a biggie.

[seemslikeadream]

169. I think I was misunderstood about the money

I meant, especially in her situation even though people say she has the money to leave, does not mean she is able mentally to do it no matter how much money she has

[Selatius]

4. A lot of people are worried about the economy. Rihanna and Chris Brown are a small matter.

Of course, I doubt anybody here condones physical abuse on women, but the fact of the matter is that their personal troubles don't have as much national significance as the possibility of an impending great depression.

[CTyankee]

7. My larger point is to question why this problem is so bad in our country.

Brown and Rihanna are young people and yet they are continuing a horrible situation. Maybe it's just me but I have never seen an in depth discussion about this problem here at DU and god knows we discuss everything else...

[Selatius]

12. Who says it's worse in our country than any other country?

There are a lot of abusive relationship situations in the world regardless if it takes place in the US or somewhere else in the world.

[CTyankee]

21. Of course it exists elsewhere, but we live here and our interest is in our own

political lives. Is this a political issue? Think about it...

[iverglas]

146. you, apparently

Not anyone else that I see.

The poster you responded to said:

My larger point is to question why this problem is so bad in our country.

Avoiding that question?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. How Much Discussion Do You Need?

He's a scumbag that abused his girlfriend that will hopefully be appropriately punished for it. Men who abuse women are pieces of shit and any decent person wouldn't condone such abuse. How much more discussion does there need to be? What kind of discussions were you expecting or how many threads did you want to see? He's a piece of shit. There are lots of pieces of shit out there. Not sure what you were looking for.

[Uzybone]

14. +1

[CTyankee]

15. We discuss a LOT of more minor issues to DEATH here at DU on numerous threads.

I was wondering why I have never really seen any discussion at all about it here.

A few years ago I was in a Writers Workshop, part of my graduate work, and 3 of the 9 participants wrote about men abusing women in their own families. One was a male who wrote movingly about his father beating his mother. Two of the women, one in her 50s and the other in her early 20s, wrote about their fathers abusing them as kids. I did not write about my own experience growing up because my mother was still alive at the time. I would today, though, now that she is gone...

[hfojvt]

78. but there have to be two sides

that's what gets a flame-war going and keeps it going. The disputes between two fairly large groups. The "Kobe is innocent" group vs. the "Kobe is guilty" group. The "Free Tookie" vs. the "fry Tookie". The anti-Chavez vs. the pro-Chavez. The Nader-haters vs. the Nader-lovers. ANS-bashers vs. ANS-defenders.

Maybe this is the ONE issue we have that 99.44% of DU agrees on. If a thread is posted saying "domestic violence sucks" everyone here says "amen". There is not a huge argument on the thread and there are not large groups of people who start other threads arguing the other side of the issue causing large groups of people to start threads arguing the original thesis or variations thereof.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

95. one problem I have with the revenge sentiment though

is that it justifies violence. It says that "SOME people have done things that make them worthy of abuse". That is exactly what the abuser believes. That the victim deserved it. That the victim was asking for it.

Second is the "men who abuse women" frame. As if it is always black and white, always victim and abuser, evil men and innocent women. Real life examples are hard to find, but consider the scene in the movie "Footloose" when the thuggish boy breaks up with his wild girlfriend. First he says she is after some other guy and she calls him stupid. He calls her a slut and she hits him in the face. He slaps her back and then goes to drive off. At which point she grabs a handy metal bar and starts pounding on his truck breaking headlights and cracking the windshield. He grabs her and they struggle until he hits her and drives off.

If all you see is the end result - a woman with a bloody nose and black eye, it may look like abusive man and female victim, "male mistreatment of women", but that was not the way it actually happened. Often only the people involved know for sure and they are not necessarily gonna tell the truth when they give their version of the story.

[blondeatlast]

162. Once more in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with OMC, but there it is.

Pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about this.

[BR_Parkway]

6. Who's Rihanna?

[Sultana]

38. Google is ur friend

[Ghost in the Machine]

63. Really?? Will Google loan me money, or drive me home if I get too stoned??

:shrug:

[Sultana]

83. Yes & no

:P

[Seldona]

102. DUzy worthy!

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

85. my Firefox has a bug, crashes if I use the google.

[Matariki]

131. We'd have to care enough...

[Iris]

144. I'd google her if I gave a shit.

[Sultana]

155. .

:eyes:

[Sherman A1]

62. Yeah, who is Rihanna?

[timtom]

90. Reply to #6 and #62

"Rihanna (pronounced /riːˈɑːnə/), is a Barbadian singer, model, and former beauty queen. She also serves as the cultural ambassador for Barbados.<2> She is the first Barbadian artist to win a Grammy Award.<3><4>a<›> Rihanna is currently signed to the Def Jam Recordings label.<5> She has attained five Billboard Hot 100 number ones thus far ("SOS", "Umbrella", "Take a Bow", "Disturbia" and T.I.'s "Live Your Life").<6>" -- Wikipedia

Thought some of the other responses to be somewhat lacking in substance.

[Fire1]

8. I don't think there's a whole lot to discuss. I mean, it's been

done to death, rehashed, talked about, written about, laws changed (enhanced against perpetrators), social programs and networks, you name it. What else is there to say?

[MADem]

9. I do not know who this young lady is, or even what she does for a living.

Or what her so-called boyfriend (friend? With friends like that, who needs enemies?) does to earn his daily bread, either. I've never seen them, been aware of them, known a thing about them....until this incident.

I suppose if I were much, much, much, MUCH younger, I might know these things.

My first notice of this young lady was when TMZ managed to get the picture. She had the same "beaten about the face" look as Nicole Brown did in her police shots.

You can't have "outrage" without awareness. Unfortunately, there'd probably be more "awareness" if the poor woman ended up dead.

Apparently, she's now (after wavering) decided to dump the asshole, who has responded in typical "I'll get her" fashion:

http://www.entertainmentandshowbiz.com/rihanna-rihanna-dumps-beau-chris-brown-2009022211510

R&B singer Rihanna has dumped her boyfriend Chris Brown, it has emerged.

The pair hit the headlines earlier this week after Brown was arrested for allegedly assaulting the ‘Umbrella’ hitmaker, reportedly leaving her with a bloody nose, swollen lip and facial bruising.

Rihanna, 20, had apparently wanted to stand by Brown. But, after listening to her friends and family who pleaded with her to dump the ‘Run It’ singer, the Barbados-born star has decided to end the relationship.

“Rihanna really did think that Chris was the love of her life. But when everyone started to question their relationship, she burst into tears and reluctantly agreed that they were right. She just can’t believe it’s ended this way,” the News of the World quoted a source, as saying.

A source close to Brown added, “Chris and his camp won’t take this lying down.

“He’s told friends that Rihanna’s true colors will soon come out.”

Would those true colors be the rainbow shades of deep bruising, perhaps?

[MadBadger]

10. Do you want DU to turn into Headline News where we talk about Rihanna or Caylee all day?

What exactly do you want? There have been threads about her...plenty

[CTyankee]

27. not in GD. I did see some, on research, in the Lounge, tho.

Here's the question: why in the Lounge? Why is this issue something that can ONLY be discussed in that venue? Is it because it isn't "serious" enough?

[RB TexLa]

11. You mean physical abuse of anyone, right?

[CTyankee]

17. male abuse of women is far, far more frequent than women abusing men.

What I wonder is why this is so?

[MADem]

60. Children still get the lion's share, though. No point in playing the "which is worse" game. It's

all unacceptable.

[CTyankee]

84. Yes, and children learn to batter and abuse from the battering parent.

It's a vicious cycle...

[mzteris]

71. Why do Men Abuse?

WORKING WITH BATTERED WOMEN: A Handbook for Health Care Professionals

One side of the dynamics is that men abuse. Why? Because abuse is:

* Sanctioned: many traditional laws and religions, until recently, permitted or encouraged men to beat their wives (the reverse has not been true);

* Socialized behaviour: men learn to be violent toward women from their families and their fathers, and other male role models, especially those on television, in the movies, and in magazines;

* Systems failure: men often keep abusing because no one—not their families, not their friends, not the neighbours, not the police, not the media, the workplace, the church or the courts—no one effectively intervenes;

* Strategic: batterers inflict the greatest violence and the greatest damage when women try to leave. The strategy of abuse is to keep the woman from escaping;

* Successful: the man gets away with it, and gets his way;

* blamed on Substance abuse: men often say, "I was drunk and out of control. I didn't know what I was doing." Abuse of alcohol or drugs does not interfere with men's control. Drinkers rarely beat up their drinking buddies or the police, but they often beat their wives. (See also The Safety Zone: The Alcohol Connection.)

http://www.hotpeachpages.net/canada/air/medbook/contents.html


**********

[CTyankee]

76. Thank you for posting that list. That next to last point: it is successful.

That's just chilling.

[Scout]

116. excellent post

this point especially strikes home:

blamed on Substance abuse: men often say, "I was drunk and out of control. I didn't know what I was doing." Abuse of alcohol or drugs does not interfere with men's control. Drinkers rarely beat up their drinking buddies or the police, but they often beat their wives.

that has been the experience of myself and other women i've known.

they may be very, very angry at someone else, but they don't hit them ... they'll punch the wall, or throw things, or kick things. but if they are with the woman they "love" then she's fair game as a punching bag.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

111. So the physical abuse of men or male children is ok?

[Scout]

114. no one is saying that, "you" just can't stand it if we talk about women

yeah, yeah, yeah, we know, patriarchy hurts men too.

so start a thread about the abuse of men and children.

some guy always has to come into a thread about women and stomp his feet for attention for the poor widdle menz.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. I don't know why he brought it up, I just asked for clarification.

[CTyankee]

120. Please, if you look at the statistics it is clear that men abuse women and children more than women

by a large margin. The question that you pose is not the right question.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

145. The physical abuse of anyone is wrong. I think that was his point.

I just wanted some clarification.

David

[Uzybone]

13. Outrage: has to be the word of the year for 2009

[elocs]

16. How much discussion or outrage is exactly the right amount?

I suppose that DUers could flood the forums with innumerable post and threads all saying the same things over and over and over as usually happens.

[CTyankee]

19. I'd say the absence of discussion speaks volumes and would prefer

to hear those volumes a little more to get at what DUers think about the issue. I am now sensing, on this thread, a few shrugs and some annoyance that I am bringing it up. That tells me something...

[MADem]

45. Several people have TOLD you they don't know the players in this drama

...and yet, you persist in ascribing MOTIVE to them, as though they're somehow morally deficient because they don't know these people and don't know what happened.

If Prince Phillip beat the living shit out of Queen Elizabeth, we'd be talking about it because we KNOW these celebrities.

If Will Smith beat the shit out of Jada Pinkett Smith, we'd be talking too, because they have a level of fame that these people you seem to think are more famous than they actually are do not have.

If Ellen beat the shit out of Portia DeRossi, that would make headlines too. See, they're FAMOUS. REALLY famous. Like, famous from eighteen to eighty famous. Not "teenybopper" famous.

The only "volumes" being spoken here are that you are refusing to process what people are saying to you, because YOU want to talk about this story.


People certainly DO care about the subject, notwithstanding your finger wagging and scolding. They're just not about to do the judge/jury/executioner routine when the facts are not all out. Yes, the woman looks like she's been beaten, but it's not impossible that she fell down the stairs after losing her balance after kicking the guy in the balls. Unlikely, yes--but the facts aren't in.



The problem is, we don't know what happened here. No one is saying. And many of us old farts don't know the teenyboppers involved, either.

If you really HAVE to talk about this, there are celebrity gossip sites that will accomodate you, populated by posters who know the players.

[CTyankee]

55. I'm not interested in the life of Rihanna to the extent you think I am.

It is amazing to me that you have reduced this to "gossip." My intent, which you missed, is to have a discussion about the issue of domestic violence. Rihanna was merely a famous touchstone for that discussion. That sometimes happens and then people discuss how it might have affected them in their own lives. I was interested in having that discussion.

Please, your anger is misdirected and frankly, over the top.

[MADem]

67. I haven't "reduced this to gossip" but there YOU go, ass-uming, like you have throughout this thread

It's amazing to ME, and others, that you refuse to accept their logical reasonings, and instead prefer to ascribe heartless motive to people you don't even fucking know. Now THAT's hubris! And I'm not 'angry'--if I were angry, you'd know it. I'm a bit astounded at your childish bossiness, is all, and I'm just calling you out for what you are--a scold and a net nanny, who wants to control and direct the conversation, and dictate how people are supposed to feel and react to the travails of the rich and not-all-that-famous.

That's YOUR issue, and it's probably one you should work on .... OFF line.

Here, you want to read about some non-celebrity, gossip-free violence against women? Do you?

Read THIS. And do take note of who started the thread (several DAYS ago)--while you're doing that, back the fuck off, get off your high horse, and get OVER your didactic, overly-dramatic self...and stop telling others how they are "supposed" to feel about a news story where the facts, unlike this linked one, are NOT clear:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5090495

[CTyankee]

82. MAdem I want to apologize to you.

I'm very sorry to have come across to you the way you describe. It was not my intent, but I hear your anger and I regret my words to you. I am sure we have many points on which we can agree and I hope we will have that opportunity soon.

[MADem]

86. No problem.

As others said, if we could have discussed this issue in and of itself, without prefacing it with "Why don't you at DU care sufficiently?" or a variation on that theme, the whole process and discussion might have been better served. I don't care for abusive people, I never have...and I don't care if they're abusing women, men or kids--though I reserve extra-special ire for those who go after kids.

[CTyankee]

87. Agreed. I have 3 grown kids and 4 grandchildren. The abuse of kids to me

is unspeakable.

[Lost in CT]

156. Yeah but Rhianna isn't a famous touchstone.

She is basically unknown except to a small subgroup of people that listen to one narrow form of popular music.

[elocs]

50. I have to admit I've seen the story, but I have not idea who she may be.

Men should not be hitting and abusing women, or women--men. She is no better than the thousands of other unknown women in this country whose pictures we will never see displayed on the news and these are women who probably have far less help than she does and may feel they have no choice but to stay with their abusers since there may be children involved. Unfortunately there will be much outrage for her since she is a celebrity and she will get much sympathy, but when her abuser promises to be a good boy and never do it again she will go back to him. And he will never do it again, until next time.

So this is bad, but I would save most of my pity and concern for those women who anonymously suffer abuse day in and day out. This is another celebrity story otherwise.

[pipi_k]

20. While I feel badly for her, and for anyone in an abusive relationship...

I'm sorry to say that I just can't work up any more outrage right now.

I had eight. long. years. of outrage. My outrage-o-meter is burned out. Seriously.

Just can't handle any more right now...


:shrug:

[CTyankee]

25. I do know the feeling, pipi. Me too. That is why I was surprised to feel

my outrage at seeing that photo again. It just stuck in my head. I certainly didn't go looking for it...

[pipi_k]

56. Do you find yourself getting almost physically ill when that happens?

I have to admit that there have been a couple of times when I was as surprised as you when I felt rage bubbling up over some issue or another, and it scared me because I felt sick.

Like my body is telling me that it can't handle any more for now.

I wonder how many of us here accidentally ruined our physical and/or emotional health being in a nearly constant state of outrage over the past eight years. Not to mention the fear that always seemed to lurk below the surface, you know? "The terrists are coming to kill us all!!!!"

What the Bushies wanted us to believe.

I'm thinking that it's probably going to be profitable for a long time to come to be in the mental health field...

[CTyankee]

77. Well, you know, someone once said that living under the Bush administration was like living

in an abusive relationship. This all makes sense, doesn't it?

[OmahaBlueDog]

23. I think you mean why isn't there more outrage at Chris Brown

...and your point is taken; we beat Hell out of all kinds of meaningless crap, but one of the most popular singers in the world becomes a symbol for victims of domestic violence everywhere, and it doesn't get a lot of mention.

My only hope is that she is smart enough to not go back to this creep. My hopes for Mr. Brown are extensive counseling, expensive restitution, and some suitable prison time, followed by a whole lot of community service.

[Fire Sister]

29. Seriously???

One of the "most popular singers in the world" ... I've never, ever heard of her, or Chris
Brown either for that matter. I must be getting old or something; although I don't condone violence - even IF I hardly would consider her one of the most popular singers in the world.

[Maine-ah]

42. welcome to DU, Fire Sister

I'm only 34 and I had never heard of either of them until I saw the whole incident posted here on DU. :hi:

[OmahaBlueDog]

59. 1) Welcome 2) Yes, seriously

I confess, though, I didn't know who Brown was until my 11yo told me.

If you've been out in the world at all lately, you've probably heard her songs and just haven't realized it. Her music is ubiquitous in most places where pop music is played.

See my post downthread for more info:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5103876&mesg_id=5104206

[itsrobert]

158. I had no idea who they were before this story broke

But I do know who Ike and Tina Turner are.

[LWolf]

174. One of the most popular with the very young.

I didn't know who he was until my middle school students wanted to listen to him in class one day. Before the current event.

I knew they worshiped the Jonas brothers, of course. Not that I ever actually attempted to listen to the Jonas brothers on purpose, lol.

They begged me to let them listen to music while they were working on a project. I said I would, if 100% of the class could agree on a few bands to listen to. That sparked an intriguing debate, because they don't all like the same stuff, but they finally agreed on a few performers that they could all tolerate, and that I would allow. Chris Brown was one.

[Waiting For Everyman]

24. Our society condones (promotes) the abuse of ANYONE who is weaker.

It's the philosphy most people today grew up on. Look at how we treat the poor. Nuff said. It's bullyism. It's accepted, even admired, and runs through all of our thinking... about anything.

[RJ Connors]

26. Maybe because some people here think we have real problems

that need to be discussed more. Discussions about Rihanna would be more appropriate on an entertainment board? Just a thought.

[CTyankee]

30. The issue is physical abuse of women. Can you hear what you are saying to me?

The fact that Rihanna is a popular singer does not make the issue smaller or less important. I am truly amazed at your post and I can't believe I am seeing it on a progresive website...

[RJ Connors]

33. Well, beleive it. n/t

[CTyankee]

49. I believe it tells me a lot more about you.

Ugly.

[mzteris]

54. so you think abuse is not a "real problem"? n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

66. RJ, Domestic violence (and it's companion issue, sexual assault) are very real problems

I think you know that, and you're choosing to marginalize it because it's happening to a celebrity that you don't know/like/care about. Some of us would like to think that these unfortunate events can help bring attention to victims who are less well known.

[lunatica]

28. Discussions on DU tend to devolve into attacks

And I, for one, will not air my painful personal experiences just to have someone come along and blame me for:

1. "Allowing" it to happen
2. Causing it to happen with the inference that I did something to deserve it on some level
3. Having such low self-esteem that I'm stupid and weak
4. Having no pride because I didn't cut his balls off right away

Physical and emotional abuse happens to strong and intelligent people too. The only time I will talk about it is when it will help another woman or child deal with the abuse in their lives.

[CTyankee]

36. It is a terrible indictment of DU then that you feel this way.

I certainly do not mean to itensify your pain. I was hoping we COULD discuss this issue without having it turn into a blame game on you or anyone else in your situation. I thought we had not gone through the feminist revolution just to have such recriminations still exist in peoples' heads to basically "blame the victim." What you have listed is what I heard discussed many, many years ago before the rise of feminism in the 70s. Are we back to that again? That is depressing...

[lunatica]

53. blaming the victim isn't back. It never left.

And there is no indictment of DU. It's just a fact of life. On the other hand, if someone starts a thread claiming they've been beaten up by their husband or boyfriend I will definitely jump right in and talk about my life and try to help them by being sympathetic, uncritical and by giving the best advice I can.

[Lost in CT]

31. Honestly because I have no idea who these people are.

She should press charges and kick him to the curb... If she doesn't I honestly have no sympathy for her.

[emilyg]

32. I had no idea who she was till

saw on news. There has been some discussion in the Lounge.

[Dorian Gray]

43. The DU

advertisment bot is all about Rhianna Ringtones in this thread. Coincidence????

[emilyg]

93. I'm going to give you a * so you don't have to see ads.

[MADem]

125. The bot is 'intelligent' in that it picks up on what people say.

If you put Ann Coulter in the thread enough, or Sean Hannity, the bot would try to sell you their books!

[Dorian Gray]

34. I go to an entertainment site

where it's been the talk nonstop. I haven't even thought about it being here. But since you've brought up the subject, what CB did was reprehensible and downright evil. I hope he goes to jail and loses his career. And I hope that Rhianna, a musician I am not all that familiar with, can rise above this. I'd love to see her become an advocate for the abused, but she is also a victim here, so I have no expectations from her.

[Runcible Spoon]

35. Domestic violence happens all over, every day. Because she is famous we should talk about her more

than the other countless victims? I think the better question to ask is, why isn't DU talking about domenstic violence more? :shrug:

[CTyankee]

41. Exactly my point! Thank you!

Rihanna is just the personification at the moment of the issue.

[Runcible Spoon]

52. Fair enough; I certainly understand discussing her abuse as a flashpoint for a larger dialogue.

As the economy worsens, domestic violence will explode; I don't really buy the line by others in this thread that there are "bigger problems" to deal with.

To those worried about the economy:.
Bad economy means more losing their jobs and their houses, which means more stress and propensity for abusing partners. Additional pregnancies become a worry instead of a joy. Programs aimed at providing services to abuse victims are slashed and staff laid off. Courts become overburdened and these cases are deemed lower priority and languish for months. And so on...

[zombiezneedluv2]

37. I try not to be addicted to the drama of "outrage"

It disgusts me when anyone is assaulted; man or woman. I think in this particular case, she may be a celebrity, but most people here probably don't listen to that type of music. Even younger DUers may not drink the pop culture Koolaid, I am guessing...

In other words, they really don't follow Rhianna's life.

[Sultana]

40. Cuz she's black

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[CTyankee]

44. There is an added element of racism, I think.

Do some people feel that it only happens to black women, or that blacks are more likely to become violent than whites.

This is a really complex issue...

[stray cat]

46. How many women get beaten a year and how much do you see it posted on DU?

[OmahaBlueDog]

64. How many world-famous singers get beat downs from their SO?

It's like many diseases or social ills; once someone famous comes to symbolize them, they gain far more noteriety.

How much did we talk about Parkinson's before Michael J. Fox?

Didn't Rock Hudson (and certainly Majic Johnson) change the conversation about HIV/AIDS?

[MADem]

72. World famous?

Maybe amongst the younger set. But she's not 'world famous' .... she's a teen/young adult idol, at BEST. I don't live in a treetop, I watch television often enough, and I had never heard of her.

[OmahaBlueDog]

89. People magazine clearly disagrees - she has the cover this week

..and newsflash... the younger set are the ones buying the music, the concert tickets, and buying the drinks in the clubs. I was the younger set once. I suspect you were too.

We're getting into a pissing contest over semantics. Clearly she's famous, and I'd like to think we can agree domestic violence is a serious issue.

[MADem]

107. People Magazine is an American publication. There are people in Europe who have never heard of it.

And "newsflash:" I daresay the majority of the population in China and Africa are unaware of who made the cover of "People" on a given week, either.

The reason, though, that she made the cover is not because she's a minor celebrity, but because she is a very attractive minor celebrity who was allegedly beaten by another minor celebrity. If she hadn't been belted by that jerk, odds are excellent to outstanding that she wouldn't be plastered on the front of the magazine, or even in it, unless her publicist dropped a blurb about a new album in there.



Sometimes, people make the cover of that gossip magazine because they are the flavor of the month, not because they have any overwhelming celebrity based on a large body of work. Some don't even have much in the way of staying power. It's no assurance of lasting fame, as this cover from a few decades back indicates:



She's famous within a subset of young people, certainly. She's not necessarily famous enough to be recognized outside that milieu, though. She's not Barack Obama, or even Conan O'Brien. She's more like, oh, Cecelia Bartoli--possessed of a dedicated following, known within her area of expertise, but she could go out in public and, in the right place, not be recognized...at all.

Domestic violence is a ghastly issue. If this woman can shine a light on it, and become a poster child against it, well, that would be a GOOD thing. Of course, that might be incompatible with her career goals (she seems to want to just get away from the nitwit who belted her), but a well-placed PSA might not be a bad thing for her to think about doing. It would take a bit of fortitude on her part, though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

108. List of award nominations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rihanna_awards

Yes, I think 'world famous' is right. "World's Best Selling Pop Female Artist 2007" is significant.

[MADem]

123. I'm sorry. I just don't know her or her work. Do you know who Domenico Modugno is?

He's WAY more famous than she is. But that doesn't make HIM a household name, either.

See what I mean? Don't give up too early on the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-DVi0ugelc

[muriel_volestrangler]

129. By an amazing coincidence, I first heard of 'Volare' a couple of weeks ago

You seems to be mistaking 'world famous' for 'known by everyone in the world, including oneself'.

Anyway, I'd point out (a) Modugno is dead; (b) he won his Grammy, and did his Eurovision entry, 50 years ago. Rihanna got her Grammy last year. Given the huge expansion of the music industry in that time (she has been nominated for awards in the USA, UK, Japan, Australia, Germany, Belgium, and MTV in Europe, Asia, Africa and Latin America), I'd say she's almost certainly more famous than he ever was, in terms of number of people who had heard of her.

On edit: an example of how famous she is: the BBC website lists its most read stories in each continent. The one "Rihanna speaks after photo leaked" is no. 1 in Australasia, Asia, Africa, South America, and North/Central America; it's no. 3 in Europe, and the UK. Overall, it's been the most popular story for 12 out of the last 15 hours on the site.

[MADem]

135. I'm not saying she doesn't have a measure of fame within a small group.

I actually was saying the same about Modugno, really (I was amused to see that tune fly around the world after starting out as a local and then regional hit)--only, over time, he's gotten a bit "out of his niche" as time has passed, and everyone from Dean Martin to the Gipsy Kings have covered his tune. I suppose, since there are way more people in the world now, that she may have had more listeners by the numbers, but by the percentage, I'm betting that Modugno beats her hands down. Why? Less competition in the old days, and that song's been a karaoke classic for years (I have been conned into singing it in a Japanese bar, actually--and that was before MTV, before "karaoke" hit the USA).

She's just not "there" yet. All of these neat "awards" didn't even exist back in the dark ages, before MTV. I'm not the only one who said "Who is she and what does she do?" when the reports that her paramour beat her came out. And to boot, I don't have any knowledge of "Chris Brown" either. He can go to hell or oblivion for all I care, and I won't miss him, because I've no idea who he is or even what he looks like.

At any rate, that doesn't matter. A person should not have to be "famous" to have people say "Hey, beating on your partner is a no-no."


One thing this incident has done is increase her "profile." What she does with that is up to her. She could do a service in the fight against domestic violence if she had a mind to...

[muriel_volestrangler]

139. And that this is the most read news story in the world?

That doesn't persuade you that the 'small group' is in fact huge? :shrug: She's been one of the biggest selling artists in the USA for 3 years now - eg http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2006/12/05/rhianna-takes-home-the-trophy-beyonce-gets-the-man-gwen-stefanis-new-crush/ - and that popularity is clearly now across the world. Most of the world is younger than me - and you, I think.

[MADem]

141. I'm old, sure.

I simply think you overestimate her popularity or people's awareness of who she is. They may know her music, but they don't know her name or her face. Of course, now that her face is all over the news, I'm guessing a LOT of people now know who she is.

[CTyankee]

115. MAdem you have won my heart with your reference to Cecilia Bartoli!

I love her mezzo voice, so good, so perfect. You must love opera as I and my husband do and so we must be some sort of buddies, despite our spat here on this post!

What is your favorite recording of Bartoli?

[MADem]

122. I'm a buff of sorts, though I prefer the Italian composers--I just can't get into horned helmets and

metal boobs. I've tried.

I saw Pavarotti twice...in ITALY! He was in fine voice, too, lucky me.

I love everything Cecelia does--EVERYTHING. She could sing the phone book, and I'd be delighted! I also like her car (a Fiat Cinquecento) -- I hope she hasn't gotten rid of it now that she's famous!

[CTyankee]

124. OMG, were you at La Scala? I was there only briefly to look around in 2008.

I am completely jealous of you...my god...

Do you speak Italian? (I have tried so hard, taking 2 courses...)

[MADem]

128. Teatro San Carlo in Napoli, and by complete accident at a public concert

that RAI was putting on in Bologna with the regional orchestra (he was with 'the girlfriend,' who later became the 2nd wife). I wandered down to the square after a great meal and found RAI setting up for a (free) concert....I grabbed a program and took a seat right up front. Guess who the headliner was?

It was brilliant! He did a "greatest hits" of sorts. Tore the house down!

I speak lousy Italian with a flawless accent, so I can get along just fine. I'm in the same boat with a bunch of other languages as well--great accent, lousy grammar! I used to have a profound vocabulary, but I haven't been speaking it in a few years, so I'm rusty as hell.

[CTyankee]

164. I missed a trip to Naples in 07 due to surgery and was laid up.

But I have been in lots of other areas of Italy and Sicily (opera house in Palermo is magnificent and I loved Palermo). Besides Roma, I adore Lucca, Perugia, and Verona. I may go back to Florence in the fall for a week to trudge around the museums (I wish the Uffizi were more user friendly!) and take some train trips to places like Prato, which has some great Giottos, now restored.

Like you, my accent is great but my grammar is spotty. I am certain that if I lived even for one month in an Italian city I would improve greatly...

[MiniMe]

163. My father saw Pavarotti at La Scala, he wasn't even the lead tenor when Dad saw him

But he saved the libretta and framed it, he knew that Pavarotti would be great some day.

[CTyankee]

79. You are so right to point that out. We hide this and then when it is discussed in

relation to a famous person, all sorts of things seem to come out.

Obviously,this is a difficult discussion for a lot of people to have...

[Dr.Phool]

47. Who is Rihanna?

And what do they have to do with the economic collapse?

[OmahaBlueDog]

58. She's a wildly popular singer

Robyn Rihanna Fenty (born February 20, 1988), known as Rihanna … is a Barbadian singer, model, and former beauty queen. She also serves as the cultural ambassador for Barbados. She is the first Barbadian artist to win a Grammy Award. .. Rihanna is currently signed to the Def Jam Recordings label. She has attained five Billboard Hot 100 number ones thus far ("SOS", "Umbrella", "Take a Bow", "Disturbia" and T.I.'s "Live Your Life").

Rihanna broke into the recording industry in 2005 with the release of her debut album, Music of the Sun, which features the hit single "Pon de Replay". Less than a year later, Rihanna released A Girl Like Me and earned her first number-one single, "SOS". In 2007, Rihanna released her third studio album, Good Girl Gone Bad. The Reloaded edition of the album has yielded eight singles, including "Umbrella", "Don't Stop the Music" and "Take a Bow".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rihanna

In answer to your second question: she's making truckloads of money in spite of the collapse

[Dr.Phool]

75. Sorry, but I've got more important things to be outraged about.

[mzteris]

81. yeah, because abuse of women

is such a trivial thing. . .

move along, nothing to see here, move along . . .

[OmahaBlueDog]

98. In my professional life, I recently visited with an administrator for a Spouse Abuse center

These are people, mostly women, who answer calls at all hours from the cops and ERs to come advocate for victims (again, mostly women) who've been beaten by spouses/SOs, and also victims of sexual assault. These advocates do this work for pay that would horrify teachers, and the organization relys heavily on volunteers. Turnover is high, because - as well intentioned as these folks are - few can afford to do this kind of work, especially in these economic times. The organization depend heavily on government grants (all of which stand to be cut) and donations (which look to be down in the bad economy).

Rihanna is lucky in the respect that she is a wealthy celebrity. Many will endure the beatings because the SO/spouse is the source of family financial support. But when things get bad enough, the victims turn to organizations like the one I visited. They are usually shuttled to a confidential safe house (often a rental property in the community)with little to nothing more than the clothes on their backs. The safe house usually has 3- 4 bedrooms, each of which will be occupied by the victim and any children that are being brought along. If there are other victims and families in the house, all of the common household chores are shared. The advocates bring food, and provide what financial support they can. They will help victims fill out the paperwork for restraining orders, but can't assist them in court. They will put them in touch with legal aid, local charitable and welfare services, and support groups. If all goes well, the victims will find the resources they need to rebuild safe, happy lives.

I don't know you, nor do I know what your problems are. You may not know who Rihanna is, or not like her music. The point is that her situation calls attention to an all-too-common problem, and it's a problem that exists in economic boom times and times of economic hardship. We can all be Santelli and say "it's not my problem, I didn't cause it." I'd like to think that some will see this and realize that domestic violence is everyone's problem.

[SpookyCat]

96. Robyn Rihanna Fenty

born February 20, 1988...

She was born the very day I got married the first time. Sheesh!

Anyway, to the point of the OP, like many people have already stated, I had no idea who either person was when this story broke. When I first heard about "Rihanna" my first thought was the Fleetwood Mac song "Rhiannon"...I didn't know even if these were musical folks, sports or what.

The OPs point is well taken, in that at its core this is a domestic violence issue and is important in that respect, of course. But it comes down to celebrity gossip and I have no time nor patience for that. Most of what I know of current pop culture is what Joel McHale makes fun of on The Soup.

Broad Sheet in Salon did have an interesting take on the sexism in the coverage and responses to this story though a few days ago, and just now I went to find a link to it and I see the story is being covered again, (pop up ads if you're not a subscriber) http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/

It is important and abhorrent, I just think this particular story has gone under a lot of peoples radar.

:hug:

[OmahaBlueDog]

99. I feel your pain. I was married in '88

I see a lot of the views on this story are generational. If you're under 30, you know who Rihanna is. Apparantly, theose over 30 on this site are listening to classic rock or Thom Hartmann (not that that's a bad thing) :-)

[customerserviceguy]

48. I'll admit, this is the first thread on this topic that I've posted on

and I certainly hope that if guilty, Chris Brown is dealt with severely. In this case, that damage would be mostly financial, I have no doubt that he'd be lauded as some sort of hero/star in jail. I never bought any of his music, but I hope that the fans of his genre avoid spending money on him.

And it would be great to see her win a fat lawsuit against him. The message has to go out that women won't stand to be treated like dirt by the men in their lives. A lot of people still liked Ike after we found out about what happened to Tina, I hope our society has grown since then.

[omega minimo]

51. Some of us don't know who she is and self select media so may miss the story

[JCMach1]

57. If I remember right, there was when the initial event happened...

At this point, let the courts handle it...

Of course, it looked pretty bad...

[Orangepeel]

61. because there is no discussion of things on which there is no disagreement

This thread is flaming because you framed the question in such as way as to generate disagreement ("why don't DUers care?" as opposed to "physical abuse is wrong").

Threads about important issues frequently sink because people aren't arguing with each other.

[BlooInBloo]

65. There was.

[ljm2002]

70. Why make it a discussion about DU?

Seriously, I am not meaning in any way to pick a fight here. As I was reading through this thread, I realized I was becoming frustrated because it has become a meta-discussion about what we do or do not talk about here at DU. Which is a direct result of phrasing the original question as a meta question. So my first advice would be, if you want to discuss the matter here, then discuss it. Don't make it into a question of "Why don't we at DU" do this that or the other thing -- that just leads to a lot of pointless discussion that skirts the issue of interest. If your interest in this matter concerns violence against women, then just say so and post about it directly.

Frankly, I do not know who Rihanna is, although I have heard very peripherally about what happened to her. It sounds awful. Maybe you could post some details, for those of us who are out of the loop.

As to the questions about violence against women, it is sad that so many people ask "why does she stay"? I think they don't understand the psychology that goes on in these situations. It is true that a woman of means certainly has more ability to escape as a practical matter; it is unfortunately also true that these situations are never viewed by the people in them as merely practical matters.

The more pressing question is, why is violence against women such a fundamentally intractable problem? Violence in general is an intractable problem, to be sure, and we cannot separate them completely. Our society glorifies violence: one need only recall the newscasters promoting Shock and Awe to know that is true. Also the use of steroids by athletes is rampant and has been for some time. Then there are the other drugs such as alcohol, cocaine and meth that also are implicated in violent behaviors. But beneath all of that, there is still the issue of misogyny, and it is deep. I know it makes many people uncomfortable to discuss this, and that men in particular may not want to hear such words bandied about as they feel defensive when they hear it. But it does no good to hide one's head in the sand. Just because you, personally, would never think or behave in this way does not mean we should ignore the substantial minority of men who would, and who do think and behave in this way.

Typically, the abusive man will not lash out at the 6'6" bouncer at the bar where he got shit-faced, no, he'll wait until he gets home and pick on someone who is conveniently available and who he knows he can both beat and browbeat with impunity. It's classic bully behavior, fed by rationalizations that see the woman as weaker both physically and mentally. Often the man sees the woman as insufficiently supportive, or as dragging him down. Add children to the mix and it can get worse, sadly. As I see it, it tends to be one of three basic patterns: 1 - the man has low self esteem because he cannot live up to the stereotypes of provider and protector; 2 - the man is simply outright macho and likes to throw his weight around; or 3 - it's drug-induced, in which case all bets are off as to how it manifests and what the underlying psychological weirdness is. Or it can be all of the above.

Okay this is long enough.

[MADem]

73. Long enough, good enough, and speaks to the heart of the matter.

Well done.

[CTyankee]

80. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

I had hoped for such thoughtfulness.

Back in the 1970s I was encouraged to see many discussions among feminists about issues such as this one. That speaks to why I wondered about the Rihanna incident not stirring much discussion about domestic violence against women here at DU where lots of feminists can be found. That was the reason I posted it in such a way. I was perhaps a bit too blunt in my question and it touched some raw nerves.

You've obviously thought deeply about the subject and for that I thank you.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. 'it is sad that so many people ask "why does she stay"'

I don't even know if they live together. He is 19; she was 20 (now turned 21). So far, I've just seen a description of 'boyfriend'. Both have pop careers; do we actually know they share a house? Or does 'stay' mean 'continue to have as a boyfriend'? Without knowing how long their relationship has been (obviously, not that long), it seems a very good question - "why not just press charges, and say the only place you'll ever see him again is in court?"

[ljm2002]

100. "why not just press charges,"...

..."and say the only place you'll ever see him again is in court?"

Well of course, logically, that makes the most sense. But human behavior is not always logical. Women have many social forces that push them to try and make a relationship work. Their sense of self esteem, for example, is often wrapped up in how they are seem by the men in their lives, especially their husband or boyfriend. So they really do think they brought it on themselves.

Also, they often do not get social support. In fact, the question "why doesn't she leave", is often asked by those around them -- and is used as a reason to deride her rather than to support in her, having the effect of making her more isolated.

I realize that this case is unique in some ways. But that is true of any situation. As a practical matter, she can and should leave him, and I hope she does and keeps it that way. But I am still appalled at how many people glibly say "why doesn't she leave", as if that just settles it once and for all -- in their minds, she's just a silly git, so, like, whatever. Minimizing and dismissing what is a very serious issue and one that is far too common and affects far too many lives.

[muriel_volestrangler]

104. It's hard to think of any woman more capable of leaving a boyfriend

(especially one that, only in August, she was still insisting, however unconvincingly, was 'just a good friend', I have found).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rihanna

Cultural ambassador for Barbados, a whole string of friends who can support her, working with major companies for charity, setting up her own charity, as well as her music success, all by 20 - this is not a woman whose self esteem depends on a man she said was 'just a friend' 6 months ago. Another report claimed at around the same time they were looking for a house to live in together, but it's still not clear that they don't already have they own residences, whether on their own or with their families.

[Clintonista2]

91. Frankly, I'm surprised that there haven't been more "She must have deserved it" threads

Unfortunately the misogyny on this forum is overwhelming.

[CTyankee]

94. I was surprised that I got so many people downright upset.

I really don't know what to think about some of the responses I received. :shrug:

[saracat]

92. Because women's issues are given short shift erverywhere. Lke where is the FOCA Act ?

Many tyimes we are told womens issues are "fringe" issues.This does not surprise me at all. I was recently told by one of my local Dem orgs that choice was "MY" issue as though it only effected me.

[CTyankee]

97. There appears to be several women's issues that many good folks don't want to discuss.

It's like we have to start the conversation we had 20-30 years ago all over again, altho we have made some progress. I raised my kids to be good prochoice liberals and they are and I hope my grandkids are too!

[Seldona]

101. I fully support having a discussion on abuse.

But I haven't a clue who or what you are talking about. By your post I am assuming they are some sort of entertainment couple who have an extremely abusive relationship? If so I hope the perpetrator is sitting in jail and gets the appropriate punishment.

[CTyankee]

103. Sorry, you are right, I didn't give a brief back story. Probably because I don't know who Rihanna

and the guy are, except that she's a singer and they say he beat her up.

The photo of her beaten face just really got to me and I wondered why this had not been an issue discussed on DU, except in the Lounge. I thought as a feminist that there would be lots more discussion about the core issue, NOT Rihanna per se. I was surprised with the responses I got...

[Seldona]

106. Looked it up and saw the photo. Horrible.

Kicking this again to keep it up there. This is truly fubar.

[Captain Hilts]

109. I don't know who either of them is, actually.

But these issues should certainly be discussed.

[elehhhhna]

110. I predict she returns to him. Hate to say it but that's how it looks.

[Hanse]

112. Because it's tabloid celebrity news?

:shrug:

[CTyankee]

113. A beaten woman. That is what you dismiss as "celebrity news"?

Please.

[Fire Sister]

118. Thanks for the welcoming

I've got to take some time to familiarize myself with the format of the board. I have enjoyed reading DU for a few years; just never posted or joined. Not a day goes by however, when I don't come here several times a day.

[CTyankee]

119. Welcome to DU! I hope you buckled your seat belt, you' re in for a bumpy ride!

Nice that you keep in touch and now you are with us! Hooray!

[JVS]

121. Like we'd know about her being beaten if she were a grocery clerk, please

[JI7]

117. i think a lot of people just don't know who they are

and many who are familiar with the names don't know much about them. so there is a lack of response than if it was someone they knew more about.

also i don't think there is anyone who is ok with what has happened and we usually have multiple threads when people disagree and argue.

[last_texas_dem]

126. The importance of an issue generally tends to have no relation to the amount

of discussions it receives on DU.

That's been my experience, at least...

I'm not trying to blow off the Rihanna story at all, though... I just don't have a whole lot to say that hasn't been said. If what the tabloid media has reported regarding these two is true, I hope she stays the hell away from the asshole for the rest of her life, and I hope he gets serious help.

I tend to think it's not a matter of not caring so much as just there not being a lot to debate b/c there isn't much disagreement among the posters here, as OMC and hjovt commented above.

[JeffR]

127. Violence against women ( & men for that matter) sickens me.

But I have no idea who this woman is, or who Chris Brown is. Whoever they are, I hope she gets the assistance and support she needs and I hope he gets serious jail time.

[Matariki]

130. Who's Rihanna? Who's Chris Brown?

You say their names as if everyone should know them.

[zeemike]

132. That is what I was going to ask. N/T

[tammywammy]

134. She a very famous pop singer that got beat up by her famous pop-singing boyfriend.

You should really try and read upthread where it's posted numerous times.

[fujiyama]

133. What more is there to be said?

I think just about everyone on this board agrees that domestic violence is morally appalling and men that abuse their girlfriends or wives should be punished to the full extent of the law - and that women in such situations should find a way to leave.

But the two singers, while big among teens, really aren't that well known considering the average age of most DUers. I'm glad for once, a celebrity story like this isn't dominating GD or LBN. As it is, we often see too many threads on relatively trivial things. If you wish to see more, I'm sure there are many message boards addressing it. Now, I'm not meaning to belittle her situation. What happened to her is terrible, but it's also something that happens every single day across this country, often leading to worse circumstances like death. Perhaps, Rihanna having gone through this experience, should address it and speak out against it, warning other young women not to get caught in such relationships.

Regarding abusive relationships, DUers DO often discuss such situations and I see a lot of sympathy and good advice on how to deal with it.

[Deja Q]

136. Huffington Post will happily oblige.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entertainment/

[Cerridwen]

137. I see you mean why don't we discuss "domestic" violence more.

If I understand that correctly, I would presume the answer would lie somewhere in DU's history of flame wars any time some of the feminists here would bring up violence against women and some of the men here who felt a need to piss all over the threads.

In many cases, those same posters would then bombard the Women's Rights forum with the same pissing, moaning, feminist baiting and abuse. It's why we now have a separate Feminists group. It's also why some of those feminists voices are now gone from DU.

You'll notice some of the usual suspects; from both sides of the "debate."

[marshall]

138. Isn't Rihanna a teeny-bopper?

Well, she turned 21 yesterday, but I think she appeals to a very young audience.

I don't think it's that people here don't care about domestic violence--I just think Rihanna's fanbase is a little younger than the average person here.

[Deja Q]

140. We care, but the economy is a more encompassing issue and unless people wish to

contain their animal impulses, there is no solution to domestic violence except to lock up the repeat offenders for life or given the death penalty.

[kiva]

142. Why?

For one thing, as several people on the thread have pointed out, many of us aren't familiar with either of these people. I'm not doing a holier than thou, I'm too good for pop culture thing here, just saying that my interests (and apparently those of others here) haven't involved this couple.

Last week someone posted about trying to help a woman whose husband had abused her and was starting to abuse their children; the poster was hoping to get her into an apartment within the next few days, but the woman wasn't sure that she could afford rent, utilities, day care, etc, and she (the abused woman) thought she was a bad mother because she was considering the financial aspects of her family's situation.

The fact is that if Rihanna breaks up with this guy she will still have a place to live. She can afford the best medical care to ensure that there's no lasting physical damage. She won't have to worry about moving in with relatives or friends who may think she somehow deserved the abuse, or into a shelter with strangers. She won't have to figure out how to keep her kids in their school, or how to find/keep a job while dealing with legal problems. She won't have to worry that he might follow her to work, or home, and try to kill her--she can afford bodyguards.

As a society we can assist battered women in finding housing, supporting their children, providing counseling, and (wouldn't it be great) protecting them from their abusers. None of these things apply to this situation--we can all say what a low-life piece of garbage he is, but it's up to her to decide whether to continue their relationship.

[iamthebandfanman]

147. its disqusting

what i have yet to hear tho is if shes officially broken up with the loser...

[noamnety]

148. I haven't posted about it here

but I am sure it will be a topic of discussion when our winter break ends and I'm back in school next week - many of my students like both Chris Brown and Rihanna - a few of them sang Rihanna songs at a recent vocal concert, and I've seen the girls googling photos of Chris Brown drooling all over his sorry ass. I'm really curious to see what their reaction is, since they look to both of them as idols/role models. My thoughts on it really were with my kids, not the DU community.

[Control-Z]

150. Rihanna already has a 100% better chance

of getting out and staying safe than most abused women just because of who she is. Chris Brown has already been named as the suspect. She's got everything it would take to remain as safe as is humanly possible - with the police taking it seriously to begin with, the public knowledge, and yes, the money she has. In my experience, the cops barely even bother with "normal people". Half the time they buddy up with their fellow dude and just take him aside for a "talk", instead of filing charges.

Celebrities get celebrity treatment for everything. I would love to see them give the same treatment to every abused woman. Name the abusers on national TV. Care about the women whose odds of surviving are so low, as much as they care about these celebrities who are far more equipped and better protected.

[blonndee]

153. Yes, she does.

And that's good for her. There are so many people here pooh-poohing this story as unimportant, and others who point out the disservice this coverage does for "regular" women who are abused, and I understand and even agree with those perspectives. Still, I think this is an important story, and that it's important how it gets played, and how she deals with this situation, if only because of how it is going to be perceived by many young people. I'm thinking of my high school students who are following the story closely. This is why I'm keeping my fingers crossed and teeth clenched that she WON'T go back to him and that he WILL be charged and have to face actual consequences, unlike too many celebrity "offenders."

[CTyankee]

165. Thank you. I was beginning to wonder how this thread got off the track

I had originally intended. I am saddened and angry that after all of the dedicated work of feminists over the past 30 years, so many younger people, even so called liberals, can be so far back in their thinking. I don't want that for my granddaughters who are 7, 10 and 13...

[SoCalDem]

151. Could be that many of us don't know either of them, and that violence is so commonplace

these days, that nothing much surprises us :(

[Baikonour]

152. How many domestic violence stories go unreported by the MSM..

as opposed to ones that involve famous people?

Violence is wrong, no matter how you cut it, but you catch my drift.

The MSM doesn't give a shit about Rihanna, they just want her bruised face on their network to bring in some ratings.

[ima_sinnic]

157. a woman who has all the resources needed to dump an abuser and make her own life

but instead chooses to stay with said abuser -- well, what can I say? I don't know either of these people, but there truly are victims who need help to escape, but she doesn't appear to be one of them. She has the resources to help herself. If she doesn't have the will to leave the guy, then maybe she should seek psychological help to find out why she is so desperate as to believe he is "the only guy" she could possibly be "happy" with.

[Political Heretic]

159. I don't have time for celebrity news.

Obviously, my heart aches any time any human being is the victim of domestic violence. But I did not even know about it until I read this post.

I think a lot of other people are in the same place... we've got a lot bigger things on our plate than reading/watching the normal sources where we might here this sort of information on a celebrity.

As far as discussion of intimate partner violence here, I am all for it. But it might help to bring up some topical starting questions for discussion if that's what you want.

[DailyGrind51]

160. In the shallow superficial world of show-business, thugs like Chris Brown,

Tommy Lee, Ike Turner, and Bobby Brown are considered desirable, even by women who could well-afford to "kick them to the curb" and go for nice dependable dudes.

[Le Taz Hot]

161. I've no idea who these people are.

I'm assuming they're some sort of celebrity type. Sorry, I'm too busy trying to keep what I've worked for all my life.

[seemslikeadream]

166. An interesting thing about survivors of abuse.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5003944


Jackpine Radical (1000+ posts) Sat Feb-07-09 12:46 PM
Original message
An interesting thing about survivors of abuse.
They put a lot of effort into trying to please their abusers. Even after the possibility of abuse ends because the abuser has become weak and infirm, the abuse victims frantically seek to appease the abusers, afraid to anger them. In their deeply ingrained fear, they are unable to see that they are no longer in danger. They just keep acting as if the abuser were still all-powerful. It generally takes some pretty good psychotherapy to get the victims to let go of their victimhood.

One unused but rather damaged stimulus package will be awarded to the first person who shows they have some idea of wht I'm writing about.

[LWolf]

168. Why should there be more outrage for her,

than for anyone that experiences domestic abuse?

I'm not sure I understand what you are wanting. I vehemently oppose all forms of violence, including domestic violence, and I hope Brown is convicted. More than that, I hope his record sales plunge.

I am not MORE outraged over his victim than I am for any other victim, most of whom I will never know about, though.

[CTyankee]

170. My concern was not for Rihanna per se. In my OP 3rd paragraph

I explain what I was looking for with this thread. My concern with Rihanna was that it seemed to be relegated to the Lounge at DU and on entertainment sites generally. I agree with you that the overlooked thousands of women who are abused in this country are of the greatest concern.

[LWolf]

171. True.

But then, DU frequently acts more as a cheerleading squad than a place for substantive discussion.

Do you think justice will be served in this case, or will the perp's celebrity status get him off the hook?

What does it say about American culture, that my teenage students, the girls, don't seem concerned, and remain fans?

It's not just at DU. It's in my classroom as well. They've mentioned it in passing, and dismissed it.

Many of those girls come from homes in which male violence is accepted as normal.

[CTyankee]

172. So sad. Violence is just passed down generation to generation.

I was hoping for a good discussion about violence against women and seeing that Rihanna is famous with younger people, I saw it as an opportunity.

If you read the posts in this thread, you will probably be surprised with what some DUers say. I was.

[bridgit]

173. DU's radar only seems to track crimes perpetrated by whites

The Lounge caught it cause they're more 3-D as regards culture over there vs. GD which trends brittle, flat, myopic, intransigent and proud of it. Were Brown to have been white, this forum would have lit up with flashing links like a christmas tree then collapsed into itself like that house at the end of Poltergeist. Rihanna is a bright, wonderfully talented spirit, and she deserves much better than Chris Brown