Viet Nam Army Vets: Remember the steak in Oakland?

[ThomWV]

I wonder what, if any, one little thing they are doing for troops coming home today?

[lazer47]

1. Thom,, just like the steak we got,, times for the new vet are just as tuff

I would have appreciated a "Welcome Home thanks for your service" more than the tuff ass staek.

[madokie]

13. You know I finally got a thank you a few years ago

from a man we were placing concrete for for his airplane hanger and someone said something about Vietnam and the guy I was working with and I both being VN vets piped up something or other and the owner walked over to me and put out his hand to shake mine and said these words that I'll never forget. Thank you for your service. Other than from friends here at DU I've never had that happen. I came home via Alaska and all I got upon touching down was make sure you put on your coat because it, can't remember the temperature now but it was in Oct so it was colder'n a witches tit plus coming from where the nighttime temperatures would go past the 100 mark it was really COLD to us.

[lazer47]

14. For you brother,,,,"""WELCOME HOME"""

[madokie]

32. And a Great Big Hearty Thank You to you bro'.

and all the rest of our old VN vets brothers and sisters.

[TahitiNut]

21. I remember a poster ... either at Travis or OAB ... showing Uncle Sam and the caption ...

... "Welcome Home, GI! America is Proud of You." It was on the facing wall of the portico I entered when I got off the plane (Travis) or bus (OAB). It really struck me as pretty thin, even then. I didn't realize just HOW thin it was.
:shrug:

[unhappycamper]

2. I don't remember the food, but I do (vividly) remember the ride over to Nam

on a troopship in 1967. I puked my brains out from Hawaii to RVN.

[rolltideroll]

4. I was a navy man

I puked on my first boat trip too. I remember my old chief asking me if I was puking all the salt off my shoulders. You guys are the real heroes, I hope if i have a kid they turn out like y'all.

[Chemical Bill]

3. Maine Troop Greeters

http://mainetroopgreeters.com/Site/Home-1.html

I saw a TV thing about these folks. Since most returning troops come through Bangor, Maine, some people there have been greeting them.

This is full of kool-aid, so tread carefully. It's funny how people can buy the line that troops in Iraq are keeping us safe. I have such mixed feelings. I applaud the effort on behalf of the troops, but why cant they see that the best way to support the troops is to bring them all home. That part is just like Vietnam, isn't it?

Bill

[lazer47]

5. Never confuse the two,, Nothing is, or was,

or ever will be just like Vietnam..or Iraq

[madokie]

7. So true

:hi:

[Chemical Bill]

8. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear.

The attitude of people now is like the attitude of people then: ship the troops off without question, just because the prez said so. Questioning would be unpatriotic.

Bill

[TahitiNut]

20. That's for damned sure.

All the comparisons to Viet Nam wear mighty thin with me. They're usually spewed by folks who never saw Nam -- or weren't even born then.
:shrug:

[Thothmes]

57. one similarity that we should remember though

both wars were fought based on lies.

[Jackpine Radical]

6. Shit, you guys got steak?

I came back through SeaTac, and we got, like nuthin'.

[ThomWV]

9. Yep, they gave you a ticket and they had a special mess hall open 24 hours a day

The plane dumped you off at Travis Air Force Base. It was a good long bus ride to the north of Oakland. When they dumped you at the depot (Oakland Army Depot is what I believe it was called) it was like a big warehouse. It took about a day to get through it. They cleaned you up and gave you a new uniform, shots, that sort of shit. They had a special mess hall that was about a half mile away and they would give you a ticket to get in it. There they served up army steaks - which are not things you would confuse with steaks you'd see in a grocer store - that they would overcook to any extent you desired.

It wasn't much - but it was something.

[lazer47]

11. If you will remember that big warehouse, was nicknamed "The Barn"

[TahitiNut]

26. I'm getting some vague recollections of something like that ...

... but it may be my imagination. My head was pretty fucked up at the time (November 1969) so I wasn't committing much to memory. I get some random images in my head - like a fuzzy slide show - but I suppose I drenched those brain cells with alcohol soon afterwards.

I have a vague image of a "Sizzler" kind of steak on a mess hall compartmented stainless steel tray ... with a baked potato and some corn. But that might be assembled from somewhere/somewhen else.

:shrug:

[lazer47]

34. One of the things about PTSD, is your brain tries to shut out bad memories,,Like the steak,LOL

[TahitiNut]

38. It's strange. I remember some things quite vividly and others like a dim slide show ...

... where the slides are mixed up seemingly randomly. I remember coming under indirect fire sometimes 3-4 times a week and scrambling for cover - later that cover was the sandbag bunkers we 'built.' I remember filling sandbags in the hot sun and thick humidity. I remember the 'parties' we threw in the company area - with teriyaki beef on a skewer to die for, made by Sgt. Herb Saito, who was from Hawaii, from steaks he 'appropriated' fron the mess hall with a marinade recipe his family used. I have a strange mental 'slide show' from the night/morning of February 23, 1969, when we came under attack by an augmented battalion of NVA ... but there are some HUGE gaps.

My first several months back are a fog ... including nights of "homelessness" after I had to move out from the apartment of my 'wife' (where I was going batshit insane) ... and occasionally crops up in nightmares even these days. I suppose some of that is due to the meds I took ... after seeing a shrink.

It's just more convenient to think I 'targeted' those brain cells with alcohol ... in those occasional binges.

I don't recall anyone using the term 'PTSD' at the time. Not even the shrink.

[ThomWV]

39. Jesus - I could have written the same thing. I can't remember much at all

I was there, in the bush, for three tours; from '67 through '70. Of all those three years I can not distinctly remember any single day and probably can't recall 20 or 30 days in total. The really odd thing is I can't tell one year from another except for a couple of exceptional events. I know when I got hit, but I could not tell you which year I was in the hospital with malaria. I rember a couple of firebases but I was at dozens of them. Its all just sort of a big jumble, red clay and monsoons, how god dam cold it could get and how hot it could get, and the fucking wet and rot. And this is really strange to me - of all the guys I served with I can only remember the names of a very few, less than half a dozen.

[TahitiNut]

41. Yeah ... sometimes it bothers me.

I remember Jerry Jones, Pete Rader, and Tim Vanderwall ... but that's all. I remember (like a single, short slide show) diving for the ground when an incoming round hit near me as I was crossing an open field ... remember how I felt that gravity wasn't working fast enough and I felt like I was floating through molasses-like air and wanting to be embedded in the dirt. I can almost count the thousands of phosphor 'sparks' spraying from the hit. But I spent many days on my off-duty time after hours savoring the wonders of vodka gimlets ... an imperial quart of Seagram's blue label and a bottle of Rose's lime juice made time go by almost unnoticed. It was rumored that our company CO, when asked by the brass if there was a drug problem, answered "No, all our guys are alcoholics."

For the first years back I tried to forget. I guess I was at least partly successful. :shrug:

[lazer47]

52. We all have it,, it is called EMOTIONAL SURVIVAL SEPARATION, your brain

separates itself from emotions that have become hardened,,and most of the anger comes from the fact that the people, who should understand don't and the ones who do understand don't give a shit,, we, you and I are our own therapy,, Welcome Home Brothers,, and I don't want to say this,, but there is no known cure,,,

[TahitiNut]

55. That's a good 'take' on it.

I know that I'm most comfortable around other Viet Nam veterans -- it's a trust thing. It's NOT that we 'know' how it was for each other. It's that we 'KNOW' how deeply individual that experience was and how there really aren't any words. Hell, even when I was there it was just a matter of looking at a buddy and both of us shaking our heads. I don't recall even being able to put words around it when we were there. It was just too freaking crazy-making.

[Jackpine Radical]

47. The term then in use was "combat fatigue."

PTSD came into existence as a diagnostic label, I think, with DSM-III, in about 1980.

In Vietnam the common treatment for acute traumatic stress disorder (the precursor to PTSD) was to load the patient up with Thorazine and let them sleep it off for 24 hours, then ship them back to the field as soon as possible "to eliminate the possibility of secondary gain." I.e. they didn't want you to start getting to like the hospital, where nobody was shooting at you.

I spent 7 months in the field, got a little shot up, & spent a month in hospital & convalescent center, then, by means of an improbable set of circumstances, got my butt transferred into a medical unit where I did the last 4 months as a psych specialist. I kinda got to see PTSD (as we now call it) from both sides.

[TahitiNut]

51. I was put on 25mg Librium 2-3 times daily, as I recall. It hardly had any effect.

I was later told it should've made a rhinoceros mellow, but I was strung tighter than a piano wire. (I liked to think of it as "alert.")

[cliffordu]

56. Yeah... I was "alert" too....

I hated the VA. I self-medicated myself under bridges and garages all over the west coast.

Sobered up when I'd finally killed enough brain to not remember most of it.

I can still get "alert" (quietly) in a new york minute.

[Bandit]

17. Sea Tac or McChord Airbase?

McChord Airbase was only a few miles from Sea Tac. just outside Fort Lewis. That is where I left from and came back to every time. I was processed out at Fort Lewis.

[Jackpine Radical]

19. Beats me. That was 41 years ago.

I was 1st Cav, so I went wherever they were sent.

[Bandit]

23. Yes I also was 1st Cav

That is where I went, but we flew on Civilian jets so :shrug: who knows, probably many did fly into and out of Sea Tac. And by the way we didn't get any steak either. We got the "bums rush".

[Jackpine Radical]

43. Yup. Civilian jet coming back.

I hadn't thought about this in years, but we were drinking those little booze bottles they sell you, and a stewardess was coming around to pick them up, picked one off the tray of the guy behind me, said,"Another dead soldier," and then flushed in deep embarrassment when she realized what she had said, and where.

[shadowknows69]

10. For what it's worth I would have treated all y'all to a gourmet meal

Every day for the rest of your lives, whatever you wanted. If I had the ways and means.

:patriot:

[lazer47]

12. After what we had to eat for 13 mo. Gormet cooking would have killed most of us

[Jackpine Radical]

15. What, you didn't like your "C's"?

We had a saying that you had been in-country too long when the tropical chocolate bars started tasting good to you.

You can induce a flashback in any Vietnam grunt by saying "Ham and Limas."

[lazer47]

24. The can actually said Ham with Limas in JUICES,,which in most cases

meant you get the shits..

[Jackpine Radical]

44. How could you tell?

I mean, in the field, we had the shits most of the time.

[TahitiNut]

46. Those malaria pills did their job.

Weekly shits without the giggles.

[TahitiNut]

16. I don't remember steak at OAB in either direction.

On the way over, I got a pass and visited Fisherman's Wharf and went to a couple of bars. I remember bunking overnight in a huge dorm room (barracks) filled to the brim with bunk beds.

On the way back, my head was somewhere else. I vaguely recall landing at Travis and busing to OAB. I don't recall sitting down to eat. I remember going from outprocessing station to outprocessing station in a seemingly endless obstacle course. (It was ETS for me.) I remember getting a ride to SFO from the girlfriend of the guy I flew back with -- in her "flower power" VW minivan -- and hearing a girl say "fuck" like it was everyday conversation for the first time in my life. Of course I also remember that 'event' at SFO as I was walking out the concourse.

I don't remember steak. :shrug: Then again, I weighed 130# less then than I do now.

[lpbk2713]

18. I got my separation at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, June 69.

The one thing that stands out in my mind is when they sat a bunch of us down in a small classroom and gave us a reenlistment pitch. We all laughed our asses off. When I returned to civilian life I didn't get the bad treatment some got but I did get a lot of cold shoulders when they found out I was recently discharged.

[TWiley]

22. well ... to be brutally straightforward .....

During Vietnam, we had the draft. Many people wound up in that war who would not have chosen to go there.

Today,(excluding extended service requirements) we have people who chose to join, and who are getting paid for their service. Why is their employment decision supposed to be more special than someone else who gets paid to do a different job somewhere else?

I have more personal respect for those who were drafted and served than for those who made the choice to join. Their sacrifice seems greater.

Back to your question though ... don't give them steak. Give them Prime Rib !

[lazer47]

25. It should be aganist the law for an Army cook to get near Prime Rib

[TWiley]

28. LOL ... now that is truly funny !

[cliffordu]

45. It should be a capital offense....

[TahitiNut]

27. The economic coercion today isn't that much different.

For many, it's about the only way they can get full health care for themselves and a wife and kid ... and/or some hope of a college education. The worsening economy will make 'recruitment' even easier.

(Yes, I was a draftee.)

[TWiley]

30. which is why those who favor war tend to oppose universal health care

perhaps ...

[Pavulon]

50. Economic Draft

if your parents have money you can go to college, even borrow the money with a cosign. However the loans are not free, and require additional loans to cover stuff like food, books, or living expenses. If you get scholarships all expenses are not paid.

Pell grants do not cover all these things. You can not get by with a mcjob.

So if you do not have cash on hand and want to go to college you can join the national guard. However what you planned as a 2 weeks a year job, with weekend requirements can become full time. So you end up part of KFOR and your life goes on hold.

So for me it was a worthwhile trade, parts sucked, but I met good people I keep up with and paid for my college and could qualify for loans that i could not get at 19. NC STATE worked with me, as did my professors.

The guys (and gals) who did the same thing I did and are coming back with injuries need to be taken care of. This is not negotiable to me. The current state of affairs, pushing out people who are having mental health issues is bullshit. It should be addressed now.

If you were deployed you get care for ANY problem suffered there. Anything less is a scam.

[TWiley]

53. yes I do agree

One part that truly annoy's me with the political environment of not too long ago was that the ones waving the patriotic flag were less likely to "support the troops in reality" after their tour. The historic republicans have a rich history of letting Revolutionary war vets, civil war veterans, Spanish American war vets, and WWI vets literally die in the streets due to disease and poverty. It was not until after the hated "new deal" that veterans began to be served after their service.

It is economic slavery that supports today's war. Make no mistake abut that. It is not true "patriotism" on the part of those who want these wars. They are usually after something else ... like business interests. Then, they export the very job they expect YOU to die for. It is only patriotic on the part of those who fight it in that they are obeying orders from civil authorities. Otherwise, they are merely getting a paycheck for doing their job like everyone else, as they simply obey the chain of command. At least, those are my feelings.

I do believe Mr. Obama will straighten that whole mess out. The republicans want to take us back to their bad old days. We cannot let them do that.

[Thothmes]

58. can you cite examples from the civil war.

The pensions inplace at the end of the Civil war up until 1890 were for wounded veterans and widows of veterans killed during the war.

[TWiley]

59. I saw information on that particular war from an old

college textbook. I believe I even saw someting on it during a Discovery Chanel show. In both cases, they were discussing the important role that extended families played in the role of the social welfare "safety net" Veterans without extended families and the mentally ill were the worst off in most cases. Those who lost a limb, blinded, or were paralyzed from their wounds were called invalid or in-valids as they were non-producing (non valid) members of society. After the transformation from the agricultural society to the manufacturing society began, the misery of the old were tossed in along with the other misfortunates. The youngsters were leaving the family and moving to the city for jobs.

The "new deal" at the time was argued on that basis. That corps should have liability for the social damage they caused.

I believe the same dynamic still exists today. The average homeless person is usually

1) male
2) either a vet or mentally ill
3) has some employment even if it is picking up cans.

I am sorry that I have no documentation that I can show you. I do believe that you will find the same trend of homelessness and dispair amongst the civil war vets in spite of whatever pension was offered. Was this offered to both union and confederate troops?

[Thothmes]

60. What you cite are actually the social conditions

that existed in this country during the 19th century. They are not a result of a Republican administration ignoring the plight of veterans of the Civil War. Even before the war was over, the U.S. Govt instituted a pension plan for those men that had been wounded during the war, or for the widows of those men that had been killed. In the 1890s, the law was expanded to include those veterans that were no longer capable of manual labor, by 1906, age of the veteran alone was sufficient to qualify for the pension. In addition to the Federal Governments efforts, many states instituted their own pension plans for their veterans. The states also established veterans homes for those wounded or infirm veterans that had no other place to go. The Federal pension was for veterans of the Union Army. Amendment XIV section four to the Constitution precluded the Federal Govt from paying pensions to the Confederate veterans. The States of the old Confederacy established pensions and veteran homes for the veterans of their respective states. Some of these pension benefits were still being paid out to the widows of Confederate veterans into the late 1980s. The Confederate home in Richmond, VA. still had 8 or 9 Confederate widows residing there until the early 1990s. That corp you cite for liability, is the responsibility of both political parties in this country.

[TWiley]

63. Well, I disagree with only one point

Republican administrations are ABSOLUTELY the problem. Any active serviceman who votes republican is a fool.

Here ..... this just in off the wire: We are currently fighting two wars for the Republican Bastards. What do they do?

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/40168

'Stop-loss' Soldiers Still Waiting for Pay
Submitted by Chip on Mon, 2009-02-23 20:46.

'Stop-loss' soldiers still waiting for pay | UPI


U.S. soldiers forced to return to active duty haven't received the pay bonuses they were promised five months ago, advocates say.

The 13,000 soldiers, who were made to remain on active duty beyond their enlistment period by so-called stop-loss orders, are entitled to monthly bonuses of up to $500 under a plan approved last year by Congress and was set to take effect Oct. 1. But the soldiers are still waiting to see the bonuses, USA Today reported Monday.

"It is unacceptable that the Department (of Defense) has failed to construct a plan for issuing these payments," said U.S. Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., who is chairman of the House of Representatives Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense. "Stop-loss is nothing more than a backdoor draft, and … if the Defense Department is going to insist on holding service members under stop-loss orders, then they should be compensated for their service."

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman admitted the delay in paying the bonuses and told USA Today the Defense Department is working on a plan to start paying the soldiers.

[Thothmes]

65. How much different was it under the Johnson administration

in Vietnam, homeless vets, you bet, inept VA you bet, crippling drug use, you bet, ignored veterans, you be your ass. OBTW it was a Democratic President that started that war. Blaming all veteran problems on the pubs soley is ignorant. Every administration, whether Dem or Pub, that I can remember in my 61 years of age have overlooked the problem with our veterans. As soon as this war end, this administration will start to save money for other programs by cutting back on those services for veterans. PTSD has been recognized from the early 80s, what did the wonderful world of the Clinton administration do to face that problem, answer, nothing.

[Neecy]

29. not entirely related, but what the hell

I worked for World Airways in Oakland in the early 80's. It was one of the MAC charters that took a lot of guys over to Vietnam and back.

Vietnam was a big part of the company's history and it was always central to our culture. Once we were hired, before we could do anything we had to sit through a lengthy film called "Last Flight out of Da Nang" where we evacuated US military personnel - while shooting at South Vietnamese soldiers who tried to board our flights to evacuate, too. Several ended up jumping in the wheel wells of our aircraft before takeoff and of course didn't survive. I found the entire film horrifying. We evacuated all of our Vietnamese employees when Saigon fell and most of them ended up working in Oakland. One was my trainer who showed this film and I wondered what he thought of the shooting scenes.

They made it a point to hire Vietnam vets, especially in maintenance. They didn't have to watch the Da Nang film because it made a few freak out. I asked one of our mechanics what he, as a veteran, thought of this whole Vietnam culture that infused the company and he answered with one word: horseshit. I loved those guys.

World Airways still exists and has shuttled a lot of guys to Iraq and Afghanistan. I shudder to think of the movie they'll make out of *that*.

[lazer47]

31. I agree this is so much "HORSESHIT,,,,

[ThomWV]

33. Back then it was called "Seaboard World Airways" if I remember correctly

Second tour, going over. There is a story here, but its very private.

[TahitiNut]

35. IIRC, my MAC flights were all on Continental .. "we wag our tail for you."

But for some reason, I don't recall the flight attendants in shorts. Go figure. :dunce:

[Neecy]

36. Let's hope Continental employees didn't shoot anyone :)

Some of the World employees who shot at the South Vietnamese soldiers in Da Nang were still with the company when I worked for them, and it always creeped me out when I saw them. I remember sitting in a bar in Baltimore with one a few years later and my skin crawled the entire time. He was pretty proud that he was featured in the movie - ugh.

[noamnety]

37. We got steak in Germany

Government surplus steak at crazy cheap prices in the commissary - for a family of three living on an E-4's salary that was a huge deal.

Then I returned home and was told that anyone who was associated with a military post during that time in Germany can't donate blood because we are at increased risk for mad cow disease. x(

[cliffordu]

49. Holy shit.

And I thought I got fucked....

:rofl:

(Sorry, I ain't laughing at you....)

[fuggbush21]

40. When I came home from Kyrgyzstan in 2004

I received a lot of free meals. My father took me to this really fancy BBQ restaurant, bill ran upwards to $100 for the two of us. The owner and my dad where friends, and he gave me a $40 desert on the house. My dads clubhouse made sure I drank for free the week I was visiting him. All in all, I was treated very nicely in St. Petersburg, Fl.

The only negative was when we ran into a "protest" in downtown St. Petersburg where a bunch of people where calling us baby killers and the like. My father being a recently retired 22 year veteran, and myself just returning from a deployment, it took us a lot to walk away from it without saying anything.

So the good and the bad are out there. Thankfully though, I can say that the good far outnumbers the bad.

[ThomWV]

61. This sounds like so much HORSEHSHIT to me

You know, maybe my memory is fading but I do not recall that our country was involved in a conflict in Kyrgyzstan in 2004, or any other year. So it brings one to wonder just how many babies you got the chance to kill there

Next - show me a $40 dessert in a BBQ restraunt. Once again, I call bullshit.

Finally, and only for comparison: I came back from Viet Nam 3 times and passed through the San Francisco airport on the way home all three times. Not one person was so much as rude to me. So when you say someone called you a "baby killer" in redneck Florida I have to call bullshit on it. By the way, when I came back from Viet Nam - all three times - it was to go home to Florida, and once again - at the height of the most unpopular war in our history - not one person was so much as rude to me even though when traveling I was always in Class-A uniform.

And then I see you have posted 17 times.

Back to Freeperland with you.

[Earth_First]

62. SEAL? n/t

[Winterblues]

64. Were there babies killed there by US Forces?

I don't recall any fighting in Kyrgyzstan. I doubt I could even pronounce it. I do have a sense that we had an air base in that neck of the woods that we flew supplies into and out of but I don't recall any fighting from there. Maybe you could be more explicit in your duties and also on the "Protesters" that called you a baby killer. Were you in uniform and do you commonly go out to meals in uniform or do you wear civies like most?

[cliffordu]

42. I got mine at Mchord AFB near Seattle....

That was the worst fucking steak I have ever had.

If I hadn't known better I would have said it was racing beef.

Still....Three days later I was on the streets in civilian clothes, so it wasn't all bad.

[DemoTex]

48. No Army-issue steak here. I came back to Travis AFB (from whence I departed).

A flight school buddy was on the flight out of Tan Son Nhut with me. When he and I hit Travis AFB, his sister picked us up and we didi-maued into San Francisco for a real meal. Then I caught a red-eye flight from SFO to ATL on Delta. An old high school friend was a flight attendant on the near-empty flight, so I sat in the very back and she plied me with gin and tonics. Needless to say, I was in pretty bad shape when my dad and brother picked me up at the Atlanta airport.


"Freedom Bird" at Tan Son Nhut, Saigon

[TahitiNut]

54. Wow. That really looks strange to me.

Since I left Nam in November 1969, I never saw 747's there, at either Bien Hoa (next door to Long Binh) or the four times I went through Tan Son Nhut. That had to be about 1971, no? (Of course I was usually drinking '33' at Tan Son Nhut ... and not paying attention to much else.)