Ford Fusion Hybrid Tops Camry, Prius in Comparisons

[zagging]

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/853/ford-fusion-hybrid-tops-camry-prius-in-comparisons

Can I get an Amen?!

[cherokeeprogressive]

1. A Ford Fusion won the 500 mile NASCAR race today in Fontana, CA.

Amen.

And yes, I know that NASCAR rides only resemble every day automobiles in that the driver sits to the left of the driveshaft and the car sports a round steering wheel.

[Initech]

2. I'd trade my Nissan in for one if I could get a good rate on it.

[zagging]

4. This might help a little

From the article:

"The Fusion Hybrid qualifies for a federal tax credit of $3,400 until the end of March, but few of the cars will reach dealerships by then - if you're in the market, you might want to consider ordering yours before the credit disappears"

[AndyTiedye]

3. Ford Already Builds the Most Fuel-Efficient SUV on the Market

so we knew they could do it.

[depakid]

5. "we hit 37.7 mpg in city driving on the first try."

2009 Toyota Prius 48 city, 45 highway

2009 Honda Civic hybrid 40 city, 45 highway

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs.shtml

It's a start, but it's still got a ways to go.

[zagging]

7. Right

I'll take it:

"USA Today writes: "OK, let's just get it out there: The 2010 Ford Fusion hybrid is the best gasoline-electric hybrid yet. What makes it best is a top-drawer blend of an already very good midsize sedan with the industry's smoothest, best-integrated gas-electric power system. It's so well-done that you have to look to the $107,000 Lexus LS 600h hybrid to come close."

[depakid]

9. You can buy the advertising media- or you can look at the facts

Up to you.

[zagging]

11. Thanks. I'm happy for Ford and its employees

They're going to sell a lot of these cars. Good press helps.

[depakid]

15. Not dissing Ford for their effort hey, it's a start

But facts are facts- I'd rather see them beat the Japanese straight up.

[itsrobert]

23. They did. The Camry gets worst MPG

http://www.greencar.com/cars/2009-toyota-camry-hybrid.php

[TommyO]

38. It's a start? The Fusion trumps the Camry

in ride, handling, fuel mileage. I would say that's more than just a start.

[Orsino]

57. It's a start.

If they actually manage to sell some, that'll be a better start. If we see more hybridized Fords, that's a great start. If they shift significantly away from inefficient internal combustion engines, it'll be a win.

[EOTE]

89. You can't compare those vehicles straight up.

Neither the Prius or the Civic Hybrid are mid-size sedans. Considering the extra heft and room available in the Fusion, the small mileage penalty doesn't seem all that substantial. Now compare it to the Camry Hybrid and it does very well in terms of price, economy, amenities and performance.

[depakid]

129. Gee- isn't that what the OP suggests?

Again, this is all a bunch of marketing. It's a step in the right direction- and (unlike the other 2/3's, Ford seems to have held it's own). Good on them. I hope they sell.

One thing that's always astonished me about Ford their European and Australian models have always been far and away superior to what gets sold in the states. Now THAT's a disconnect. The fiesta comes to mind. Driven various models those all over Britain- and been blown away.

Like many things abroad you return to America and describe things to folks and all you can say is: can't those here....

[EOTE]

135. Do I care what the OP suggests?

I'm simply telling you the logistics of that comparison are way off base. By exterior dimensions, the Prius is a good deal closer to the Fusion, but it doesn't come close in terms of passenger volume. Once again, the Camry Hybrid is a far better match to compare with the Fusion Hybrid and in almost all respects, the Fusion beats it.

I've been in older American Fiestas (and Festivas) and driven the European models as well. Even the new model Fiestas feel extremely chintzy to me and I felt rather unsafe driving them (this coming from someone who currently drives a MKIV GTI and has owned other MKII VWs). If I was in the model for a hybrid right now, a Prius, Camry or Civic hybrid wouldn't even be a consideration for me.

[depakid]

136. Hopefully then you're the target market

Because if you're not- and if buyers' preferences don't coincide with the sticht, Ford won't sell that many cars. Which of course is the bottom line here.

[Radical Activist]

146. What is the target market for this car?

Ford keeps pushing this idea of SUV and family sedan hybrids. If someone wants a big car then they'll buy a sedan or SUV that's cheaper than the fusion hybrid. If they want a fuel efficient car then they'll buy something like the Prius, which Ford and GM can't even compete with. I can't see who's going to buy the fusion hybrid. It has the added sticker price of a hybrid without large mileage improvements, which should be the main advantage to owning one. People compare it to the Camry hybrid but that's a lower selling model than the Prius for some good reasons.

[depakid]

149. Don't know exacly

We saw some several fusion Camry's driving around the western states in summer 2008. I reckon we could count 'em on fingers & toes.

I don't think that would be, from our simplistic observations- what we ought to be opting to beat.

It's a start, though.

And America's gotta start somewhere.

[MattSh]

32. Ford Fusion hybrid:

Built in Mexico. Go Mexico.

[zagging]

33. My brother works at Rouge

Detroit. He gets paid all the time, like, regularly even. Lots of folks do.

[Kalyke]

60. Ford Fusion hybrid:

Profits go back to Detroit. Go Detroit!

[Javaman]

105. But daily wages stay in Mexico. the profits go to the share holders and the board.

not the little guy. No Unions in Mexico.

[Xithras]

139. Detroit? No, the profits go to international investors.

Ford is a publicly held company, and the largest bulk of its stock is held by international investment portfolios. "Detroit" doesn't see a dime of it.

[Radical Activist]

82. Seriously?

It's like they're trying to fuck up. All I want is a good union made American hybrid that gets great mileage and is affordable. Why can't Ford or GM produce one?

[Kalyke]

59. Or you can get your facts from 1988.

It's up to you.

Hell, even the Japanese-cars-are-the-bestest-things-in-the-land sycophant Car & Driver admitted that Ford is on par with anything you can buy from ANOTHER COUNTRY.

I'd rather support the UAW, myself.

[SmileyRose]

75. Consumer Report said on Rachael Maddow the Ford quality is top notch

I don't have the quote but the editor of Consumer Reports was on last week and said Ford's quality is equal or better than all of the Japanese manufacturers.

[Romulox]

77. This has NOTHING to do with quality; Depa is trying to reconcile support for a Wall Street bailout

to his opposition to Big 3 assistance.

It's a cognitive dissonance that he cannot resolve with an appeal to "the free market" (for obvious reasons,) so he tries (albeit half-heartedly) to attack the Big 3 on other grounds. However, as you can see, having no specific knowledge of the auto-industry, his attacks are superficial and not well-grounded in fact.

And that's what's really going on here. :hi:

[depakid]

128. WTF are you talking about?

You're off the deep end (in more ways than one).

Maybe Dainbramaged can help you out on my positions on both of the issues...

[Romulox]

131. LOL. I know, EVERYTHING looks bad when you remember it.

"You're off the deep end (in more ways than one)."

And you're batting .0000 in the financial prediction department! :hi:

[depakid]

134. Not when you read the comments and analysis over time

as opposed to misdirecting hostility.

Reminds me of some of the RW posters who reply on newspaper comments I post on.

[Radical Activist]

10. It's better because it's "smooth?"

Have you ever bought a car because it drives smoother? Personally I like to feel the road. I prefer a car with the shocks worn down.

[zagging]

14. I know! Smoothness sucks, don't it?

Why not just blow the shocks out when you get a new car? Better yet, remove them.

[Radical Activist]

18. smoothness is ok

but it hardly makes up for being more expensive and having worse mileage than the Prius. That's a pretty flimsy excuse for calling it a better car.

[zagging]

20. You're incorrigible

Say something nice about Ford. They're making headway.

[Radical Activist]

24. OK

They're making faster progress than GM. I have high hopes for the Volt but I'm afraid I'll be disappointed. And even though I think an SUV was an idiotic choice for their first hybrid, at least they've been producing some kind of hybrid for while. And at least it isn't the tiny three or four mpg improvement like some of the light hybrids like the Aura.

[TommyO]

39. it competes against the Camry, not the Prius

[Radical Activist]

79. It doesn't even compete with the top selling hybrid in America.

That's kind of my point.

[Radical Activist]

86. Not to mention that the Camry hybrid is a low seller.

The Prius is the top selling hybrid by far, so the Fusion doesn't even have the specs to seriously compete within the market of hybrid buyers.

[Kalyke]

61. I think "feeling the road" is a worse excuse than

"I'm not paying $32,000 for something I think is butt-ugly."

Like the Prius. :puke:

[Radical Activist]

80. Yes, it would be.

mpg and price are good reasons and this ford loses on both counts.

[Romulox]

41. You're still confused about the technology involved, aren't you? Why not read up this time first?

[Radical Activist]

85. No point?

Just general insults? Ad hominem attacks don't win debates.

[Romulox]

87. No. The last time we discussed this, you were VERY confused.

I can see that you've not updated your info since.

What is the point of opining about something which you obviously know so little about? :shrug:

[Radical Activist]

88. Yet then and now

you have no ability to show that I was confused. You showed I was wrong about one inconsequential detail and you still can't let it go. If you think I'm confused about something specific in this conversation then point it out or stop being an asshole.

[Romulox]

96. You were going ON and ON about how the Fusion's hybrid tech. was inferior

When I pointed out that it was the same as Toyota's, you didn't have a thing to say in response.

Now, you're back, and act like we never had that conversation. It makes me question your motives, to say the least! :hi:

[Radical Activist]

98. First,

the Fusion gets under 40mpg, which is inferior to the top selling hybrid in America, the Prius. I believe my point in the other thread was that American made hybrids currently on the market (Fusion still isn't being sold yet) make limited use of hybrid technology and get meager improvements in mileage. Even the one model that does make better use of hybrid technology is an SUV that gets better mileage for an SUV but not in the bigger picture. Those facts are as true today as they were then. The fact that some of the technology used is the same is another irrelevant aside you made to avoid the central issue.

You seem confused. I asked you to point out something specific you think I'm confused about and you have failed.

And as far as motives go, you never did answer my question about which company you work for. My motive is post 95. I can't get the car I want to buy.

[Romulox]

104. Like I said: you change the subject, and fail to process the aforementioned info.

You are obviously trolling, or you would at least admit your error and re-formulate your gripe.

Instead, you just plow along with yet another gripe. It looks more like you're interested in attention than the Ford Fusion.

[Radical Activist]

116. More broad accusations. No specifics.

What did I change the subject from? This thread is about the fusion. That's what I'm writing about. The fact that some technology used is the same is irrelevant to anything I've written. No, I was never going on about the fusion technology being inferior. The technology aside was your own red herring.

So let me ask again. Write specifically what I'm confused about and how I changed the subject. Just saying I did doesn't make it true, no matter how many times you repeat that bullshit. Quote something specific in this thread that I got wrong. This is the third time I've asked and you've got nothing but trash talk. You've got nothing but mindless trash talk.

[madokie]

49. I doubt the smooth they talk about is reserved for ride only

I'd rather have a picture of a Ford as the keys to any of the others. I'm from a big ass family and of the more than 80 at last years Christmas dinner I would be safe in saying that 90% of them that own vehicles have a ford of some sort. The others that don't now will in the near future because of the fact so many of us have them with no problems and there is nothing like examples as advertisements.

[Radical Activist]

81. The article

is about how it drives well and you don't feel the transition from the conventional to hybrid engine. That's the smoothness that supposedly makes it a better car. I never hear people talk about those things outside of car commercials and magazine reviews.

[madokie]

91. Oh but you feel it even though its not on top of the things we're openly made aware of

Its kind of like the difference between a ford pickup and a chevy, the chevy has a higher advertized horsepower than ford does but the ford feels stronger in the seat of the pants, as they say, because they have their most torque in the rpm range that that you are in in everyday driving. I never see that in an advertisement either but its just as real as the sun coming up in the mornings. Traveling down the road up to around 70 or so mph a ford 300 cubic inch six cylinder in many of their f150s feels and is faster than the Dodges or Chevys because that is the rpm range that the ford engines make the most torque, the most important factor I may add. Shortly after the gas crisis of the 70's when the big three all quit putting their big block V8 engines in their 1/2 and 3/4 ton rated pickups the one with the highest trailer towing rated, in pounds, was the ford 300 six while GM, Ford and Chrysler all offered higher cubic inch V8s because of that torque I speak of.
Let me tell you this little story. During the late seventies and early eighties the construction jobs were few and far between so I went to work at a local parts store. It was on many occasion that people would come in to buy parts for their vehicles and I would hear stories like I've had this car or pickup for 10, 15 years and except for tuneup parts this is the first thing I've had to buy for this thing, always was it a Ford, always. Never did I have someone come in to buy parts and say that this damn thing only has 70 or 80 thousand miles or something llke that on it and it was a Ford they were talking about, never. When I heard those words it was always about GM's, Chryslers and yes Japanese vehicles too. From experience I will tell you right up that Ford builds a better vehicle using better materials than any of the others similarly priced vehicles made anywhere, European too. Just in case you need to know all that, ok :-) :hi:
peace

[itsrobert]

21. It's chief rival is the Camry and the Camry gets less

at 33/34 MPG.

http://www.greencar.com/cars/2009-toyota-camry-hybrid.php

Facts can get in the way.

[zagging]

22. But it's not perrrrrrrfect. It has to be perrrrrrrfect.

[TommyO]

40. In other words it's not a Toyonda

That's what counts for far too many of the posters here. If it's a Ford, it must suck.

[depakid]

25. Actually, this dicussion has been had before

The size is closer to the prius- though the marketing wants to go head to head with the Camry hybrid- which is larger.

[TommyO]

43. The Fusion has one (1) cubic foot less of interior room than the Camry

100.4 cubic feet vs 101.4 cubic feet

The car's measurements are within a fraction of an inch of each other. The cars are in the same class. Get used to it, Ford trumped Toyota.

[madokie]

53. They are kicking ass actually

Ford that is :-)

[KittyWampus]

71. NO, actually the regulations put the Fusion is in the same class as Prius. But it's sad

watching some DU'ers lie about it.

Actually, it's really strange.

[TommyO]

72. And the same class as the Camry.

[SmileyRose]

78. Technically yes, but seriously, come on.

Not even Toyota is stupid enough to actually market Prius as a midsize car head to head with Fusion, Malibu or Accord. Toyota knows in practical use Prius' usable space CAN'T match a midsized car.

[Trekologer]

97. You really can't compare the two

You can seat 5 adults in a Fusion and have 100% use of the published cargo space. You cannot do that with the Prius. The Prius's cargo space is calculated with the back seats folded down. Suggesting that the Prius is a mid-size car (even though it technically has the cubic space to qualify for one) is a little bit of a stretch.

[SmileyRose]

76. That's Camry HYBRID at 33/34. Camry's 6 cyl is even worse. AND

a head to head comparison makes you realize Fusion's size and interior space and daily use more closely resembles AVALON. Most of the Fusions I know about are getting in the low 30's freeway MPG. Avalon really struggles to get past 25 Freeway. Camry 4 cyl can get it up into the 30's but Toyota's 6 cyl, all the way around is a gas hog.

[TommyO]

37. Different classes of cars. Compare it to the Camry hybrid

which is it's direct competitor from Toyota.

[Romulox]

42. Disingenuous crap from DU's top Bailout Booster. Hey Depa: are Japanese BANKS more efficient

than bloated, taxpayer funded US banks? I bet you haven't given two seconds of thought to Citibank's "efficiency"! :hi:

[HughMoran]

44. Simple minded thinking

This is why you're being criticized.

[SmileyRose]

73. Good luck

getting 4 people and all the sports or vacation equipment in a Civic or Prius. If you put Fusion WITHOUT the hybrid in a side by side with Prius for "Midsized" people are going to laugh the Prius off the pavement. Fusion competition is CAMRY in the marketplace. Toyota put a hybrid in Camry that was generally rejected by consumers.

[davepc]

108. My apple is red, while my orange is orange! Get back to me when you have an orange apple!!!!!!

[Lorien]

126. Plus it's way more expensive-5-10k more expensive

more money for less mileage, but it has a better "driving feel". Er, yeah. :crazy:

[Radical Activist]

6. It still gets under 40mpg?

That's not very impressive for a hybrid. I've driven conventional cars with better mileage. I don't know anyone who bought a car because it "drives better" and certainly not people who are in the market for a hybrid.

[Orsino]

45. But an impressive improvement over the plain old Fusion.

I was surprised that the Accord Hybrid didn't sell well. There's probably some magical sweet spot for sales, a function of MSRP, mileage, gas prices and the economy.

[Radical Activist]

84. There probably

is that sweet spot. So far Detroit keeps producing hybrids with mild mileage improvements that don't justify the added cost. At least the fusion is better but if it has poor sales I hope they don't use it as an excuse to stop developing a better hybrid.

[DainBramaged]

51. Of course, it isn't a ToyHonNis, why should you give it one iota of consideration?

:eyes:

[Radical Activist]

95. You really don't get it.

There's nothing I want more than a car that is:
1) Made by an American company
2) Made by union workers in America
3) A hybrid, plug-in hybrid or electric
4) Gets over 40mpg

The fact that Detroit won't sell me that car is why I get so frustrated. I've been waiting for years for that car to show up but Ford and GM won't offer it to me. It's almost like they're trying to avoid giving people want they want. It pisses me off.

The Fusion is better. I'll consider getting one if my Saturn doesn't reach 200,000 miles. But for now, I'm going to keep hoping my Saturn lasts until Detroit finally offers the car I want to buy.

[DainBramaged]

99. I DO get it. In 2010 the Chevy Cruize will get 42+ MPG Highway as a NON-hybrid

and probably high 30's around town for UNDER $17,000. The Volt or any plug in isn't the answer, the cost of ownership and residual payoff is too high for any benefit this generation.

My 1995 Cavalier is at 216,000 and still going strong, and gets over 26 MPG combined with a TOTAL cost of ownership in the past year (less insurance and gas) of about $300.


The 2004-2007 Malibu4 cyls. get 35+ highway and high 20's around town, for $7500-$12,000 used and one of those may be my next car (I had leased a 2003 for my ex but that didn't get as good mileage). I do not like being in a small car, people don't see my car because it sits so low. But that's the same with all small cars.

[1gobluedem]

130. Maybe because the US government isn't subsidizing the research and development

And the Japanese government did for their hybrids and, as far as I know, still is. When you have to make a profit and put those profits into research and development as well as pay your workers (and their health care) it slows things down somewhat. When your federal goverment subsidizes the R&D things can go a lot faster.

[Radical Activist]

138. False. They got billions in subsidies for reasearch from Clinton.

That's another Detroit talking point and it just isn't true. The industry got billions in subsidies and tax incentives from the Clinton administration and quickly dropped doing anything after Bush took office. They had the lobbying power to keep those subsidies and chose not to push for it. American companies had the opportunity to be years ahead of Toyota and they blew it because of their own bad decision making.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2007/11/05/071105crbo_books_kolbert

[zagging]

143. More like "1.4 billion" in research dollars over five years

To labs, universities, parts manuyfacturers, AND automakers. There were no subsidies under Clinton, but the Japanese got out of the gate with an advantage of a $3,000 subsidy to start.

"The Clinton administration has given $1.4 billion over the last five years to national laboratories, universities, auto parts manufacturers and Detroit automakers to help in the building of a few experimental models."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE0D81338F932A35752C0A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&&scp=2&sq=general%20motors%20precept&st=cse

[Radical Activist]

145. umm...

Could you explain your statement that "There were no subsidies under Clinton" given the link I provided and your own link that say the exact opposite? The article you linked says there was a tax rebate for Japanese buyers who bought hybrids. There's a tax rebate for hybrids in America too but a company can't take advantage of a hybrid tax rebate if they aren't offering any hybrids for sale.

I was responding to a poster who claimed Japanese companies had an unfair advantage because their government funded R&D, but so did the US government. As the article I linked shows, the problem was that Detroit auto-makers chose not to pursue hybrid and electric cars but preferred the disingenuous delay tactic of touting hydrogen fuel cells, knowing full well that those won't be realistic for decades, if ever.

The fact that some of the money went to universities and labs is irrelevant because the results were available for all of the auto manufacturers to use.

If you read between the lines of your linked article you can see that Detroit never took the research seriously anyway. They pursued diesel, which they knew would be a dead-end, and silly extravagances like cameras for rear view mirrors. I don't know if they were taking orders from the oil industry or just being stubborn fools. They have no one but themselves to blame now.

[zagging]

147. The Japanese subsidized the vehicles sales directly

During Clinton, the US did not subsidies car sales. What's hard to understand about that. The fact that the US didn't have product does not mitigate the fact that the Japanese subsidized their vehicles to the tune of 3000 dollars, which left them a competetive advantage over every vehicle in their class.

You stated that that Clinton gave billions to the industry. I pointed out that it was 1.4 billion, and that money was spread across the country. The American automakers got a portion of the money, the rest went to other areas of "research", like universities, labs, and auto parts makers. When you say that the results were available to the auto industry, I am willing to bet that the technology, if any, was available to the worldwide auto industry.

[Radical Activist]

148. You can bet that

but it's not what the article state, if you care to read it.

And the article you linked says the Japanese subsidy was a tax cut for car buyers, not a direct subsidy. That's exactly what the US offered and still offers.

[itsrobert]

8. The Prius is a butt ugly car

let's hope it goes the way of the Edsel and long live the Ford Fusion Hybrid until all Electrics take over.

[depakid]

12. To each his own- they're sure popular in Portland and San Francisco

Not so much in Oz (too expensive) -but then, there are TONS of smaller cars down under that come closer to its fuel economy than what you see in the states.

[itsrobert]

16. They are popular in SoCal

too.

[spinbaby]

52. The Prius is cute!

The Volt is a butt-ugly car.

[Lex]

140. who cares--let's focus on gas mileage and who cares if it's 'pretty'

nt

[LeftyMom]

13. So it costs more, gets a lower MPG,

and will haul the same number of people or LESS shit?

Color me unimpressed. And as a ecologically minded parent who likes a comfortable, roomy vehicle, I'm pretty much their target market.

Oh: and standard leather. NOT FUCKING GREEN. :eyes: Not only that, but that makes it a harder sell for parents, because car seats slide around on that shit unless you install them so tightly they cause damage.

[zagging]

17. The article said it was optioned up

"Nothing about the leather-lined test car, optioned up..."

[LeftyMom]

26. Base price is $27,995.

Keep on reading the sentence you trimmed down to cut and paste.

A few more numbers: "34-mpg score card for the overall 300-mile test run" That's not impressive at all. My ten year old, beat to hell, 184,000 mile wagon gets about 30 mpg overall, and would do a bit better if I didn't drive it like I was running from the cops.

"And its standard leather and high-quality stereo give it an upscale feel for an affordable price." MPG sells hybrids. People who want cushy interiors don't buy either Fords or hybrids, let alone both.

Also, it's a sedan and hybrid buyers tend to trend young. Young buyers prefer the versatility of two box styles (hatchbacks, wagons, miniSUV/crossover things like the xB) to sedan styles. One of the reasons the Prius has been so successful over competitor hybrid designs like the Civic hybrid is that it is a more useful, versatile small car because it's a hatchback. A smart competitor would sell something similar or even a bit more useful. For example, I think Honda would have a runaway hit on their hands if they dropped a hybrid plant into the Fit.

[zagging]

27. I missed the "standard leather" line.

Doesn't sound like a good idea.

As for buyers, there will be a boatload of them. The Fusion and Focus are doing pretty well. This car will enhance their image.

Nothing is perfect. This is a leap in the right direction for Ford.

[LeftyMom]

30. True.

Of course, Ford had nowhere to go but up for a while there, at least with small and midsize cars.

The problem is that while they're getting better they're just not doing so as fast as the competition. Once they got the kinks worked out (and boy were there ever some kinks- the car had a problem with WHEELS FALLING OFF WHILE DRIVING) the Focus wound up being a pretty good car. Then everybody and their mom came out with a new/updated cheap little econobox while Ford took their time releasing the new Focus stateside, and Honda absolutely ate their lunch with the Fit.

I swear, part of the problem is that they're absolutely terrible at designing for and marketing to young people (in this case I mean "anybody younger than a Boomer" since consumer product marketing is so dominated by Boomer tastes and probably will be for another decade or so) which is where all the growth is going to be from here on out. Meanwhile, Toyota figured out a while back, via their Scion division, that cars designed and marketed especially for younger people wind up doing really well with the older set too.

Ford? I rented a convertible Mustang a while back. Brand new, it had >500 miles on it. No aux jack for an ipod or other mp3 player. So here I am, I'm 3,000 miles from home, I have my whole music collection with me in what is now the standard format, and I'm stuck on some New Jersey highway trying to find a radio station that isn't playing back to back Bon Jovi and Springsteen because I can't access it. It wouldn't add $3 to the cost of the car to put an aux jack in the stock stereo. It was just one of many annoying little details that Ford tends to neglect, because they're slow to adapt to what buyers expect.

[JVS]

55. That aux jack was missing to make people pick a higher option level stereo

A couple years ago I noticed aux jacks disappearing from the base level radios of many cars because mp3 players were starting to be offered. The funny thing is that these were models that had been offering the jacks before

[TommyO]

46. The standard seat coverings are made of 85% post-industrial

recycled material according to the Ford Fusion Hybrid website

[madokie]

56. WE have two fords now that are 10 years old

F150 and an explorer both '98 models with 125,000 miles on them. The seat covering on both, cloth on the f150 and leather on the explorer and they both look like new, no wear spots no holes no big stains. The f150 was my work truck for the first 6 years and I'm an old concrete finisher who took no pains to be easy on them either. We have friends who own GM's and Dodges that are newer and that the interior is already showing wear and holes in them. Ford simply builds a better vehicle and have been for a long long time if not from day one. As you travel the hiways and biways just check out the numbers of old fords you see in comparison to any of the others, especially the rice burners and Dodges. That pretty much says it all if you ask me.

[rog]

35. re: the Honda Fit

Just got a 2009 Fit, and I'm consistently getting 46mpg on a door to door round trip from Milwaukee to Madison (including city mileage on both ends). A couple of weeks ago I got 48.1mpg on the same trip, got about 47 one other time. I could have had the wind in my favor on those trips, I don't remember.

I keep the cruise control at about 55-60mph on the highway and feed it gas lightly in town, otherwise no extreme driving.

I'm VERY happy with this car (under $17,000 out the door price) but it would be awesome as a hybrid.

.rog.

[zagging]

36. With that kind of MPG, you're definitely the exception

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c139c

[rog]

92. I know, and I agree for the most part. (re: the Edmunds discussion)

Without trying to hijack this thread, let me just say that there are a couple of factors at work, re: the Fit's gas mileage.

First of all, I monitored those discussions for a year before I bought the car, so I knew about the "controversy" surrounding the computer reported mileage vs. the mileage/pump manual calculation. I decided to accept the computer (for now, anyhow), so that's where I'm getting my numbers. Because of the placement of the tank under the driver's seat, the fill tube is 8 feet (or so) long ... that may have an effect on the numbers, depending on whether your fill is consistent, i.e., to the top of the tank vs. the top of the tube. The computer monitors the fuel flow at the injectors. I suppose one of these days I'll do a comparison vs. the "manual calculation."

Beyond that ...

I have the manual transmission model Fit Sport. I think most folks buy the automatic. I have a friend who bought the auto version, and he reported mileage in the mid 40s when I called to congratulate him, so maybe there's not all that much difference.

I NEVER go over 60mph on the highway. Once I was late and drove 65 ... the gas mileage suffered noticeably. The sweet spot seems to be between 55 and 60mph. If you drive 65-75mph in this car the mileage drops dramatically.

I'm usually driving alone on these trips ... no pay load except for some light musical equipment. In addition, the trip between MKE and MSN doesn't have too many hills ... just rolling countryside ... and it's a little more downhill on the way back. Any time you're ascending a grade, even a small one, you can see the real time mpg drop.

I'm extremely light on the gas in town ... coast when I can, try to time the lights, drive in a higher gear if I can do so comfortably.

So that's about it. Given what I read in the forums, I think the performance is consistent if you take driving style and conditions into account.

All that aside, I rode to a gig with a bass player a couple of weeks ago and got his acoustic bass, amp, music stand, and all my stuff including a stool into the back with the seat down. The bass player, at 6'4" tall, was able to ride comfortably in the front seat. We got just under 46mpg on that trip.

And I must say the USB port is a VERY nice touch. Put your tunes for the day on a thumb drive and you can scroll the folders on the radio display.

Sorry for the long off-topic post, but it sounded like you may be interested.

Take care ...

.rog.

[zagging]

107. Thanks

No problem with the length. Good post.

[rog]

111. I'd like to put in a good word for Ford, too.

Before I bought the Fit in January, I drove a 1998 Ford Windstar that I bought from my mom. That was a GREAT car, despite all the "lemon" talk online. I just sold it for $1,000 with 180,000 miles on the odometer. Virtually no rust. I had the transmission rebuilt at 150,000 miles and put in a water pump before I sold it, but that's about it. I was getting between 24-27mpg (highway only). That car didn't owe me a thing. For me, that was a great product.

I'm definitely keeping an eye on their newer, more fuel efficient efforts. I had no complaints about the Windstar.

Go Ford! Sorry not to mention them in the previous posts.

.rog.

[Kalyke]

66. $27,999 is cheaper than the $32,000 a Prius costs.

At least that's what they sell for around here.

And, the Prius is NOT successful.

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/55993-toyota-losing-money-prius.html (Sorry, the original article is no longer available, but that blog discusses it).

It may have started on the uptick, but, as of November, the Prius was down 47 percent over last year at the same time.

Besides, I still wouldn't pay $27,000 or $32,000 for that ugly car. The only car that looks cute as a bubble is the original VW Beetle. All the rest of them just look silly.

I really, really, really hate this bubble trend. I keep hearing it has something to do with aerodynamics, but I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how a bubble, with the high head wind resistance, is more aerodynamic than a sleeker, kind of "wedge of cheese", design.

[jsamuel]

101. my optioned up prius cost me 24,000

Don't know why you would buy it for 27k or 30k

[ContinentalOp]

123. Stop the lies. A Prius does not cost $32k. I bought one (not a base model) for $27k -nt-

[LeftyMom]

133. They don't cost $32,000

Even at the height of their scarcity they went for less than that. And EVERY model is stacked up on the lots right now, so that's hardly a sign of an unsuccessful model.

As for the looks of the Prius? Well, I guess tastes are personal, but the reason aerodynamic vehicles are bubble shaped rather than wedge shaped is that humans generally prefer to drive sitting up.

[itsrobert]

19. Actually, people who own the Toyota Camry Hybrid say they don't

get that great of gas mileage.

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0cab14

About 10 mpg less in winter.

[LeftyMom]

28. The article compares it to the Camry and the Prius.

Sales numbers wise, the competition is the Prius. Lowball numbers put the Prius' mileage in the low to mid 40, so we're talking a difference of 10 mpg or more.

That 34 mpg overall figure? That's not much better than the standard Camry gets, at least with the base engine. Real-word reports put it at about 29-30, with the hybrid clocking in around 37 overall for a typical driver.

One plus for the Fusion, earlier articles say it'll be offered with AWD as an option. While that won't do anything for it's already kinda unimpressive fuel economy, it should drive sales in places where people are ecologically minded, but haven't embraced hybrids due to snowy roads. If the AWD isn't vaporware and actually works well without killing the fuel economy, I'd expect these puppies to sell pretty well in Tahoe.

[JVS]

54. But... AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

29. Sounds like a viable option, if not the uber-pwn-mobile people here are making it out as.

EDIT: Also, a lot will depend on un-sexy things like warranties, recalls, and that kinda crap.

[zagging]

34. The words "viable option" are better than "No f*cking way!"

It's a long road.

[Kalyke]

67. Be hard to beat Toyota in that department.

Toyota is the No. 1 recalled car in America, overall, particularly the Prius.

[Greyskye]

127. Not according to these sources:

http://www.wheelscene.com/car-top-fives/vehicle-recalls.aspx

Worst Vehicle Recalls of All Time
1) Ford Pinto
2) Ford faulty ignitions
3) GM loose suspension bolts
4) Honda/Accura defective safety belt releases
5) GM flawed axle assemblies



Or this:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/total-recall-ten-largest-auto-recalls-of-all-time/
#10 Ford 1987 (3.6 million vehicles): Engine-compartment fires caused by faulty fuel-line connectors
#9 GM 2004 (3.6 million vehicles): From 1999 to 2004, tailgating took on a new dimension for the 134 customers who suffered minor accidents from collapsing tailgates.
#8 Volkswagen 1972 (3.7 million vehicles): windshield wiper arms worked themselves loose and went spinning off into the rain or snow.
#7 Honda 1995 (3.7 million vehicles): Cracked and disintegrating safety-belt release buttons were causing belts to fail or-just as potentially dangerous-trapping passengers in their cars after an accident. The recall included Civic, Prelude, Accord, Acura, Legend, Integra, and NSX models.
#6 GM 1973 (3.7 million vehicles): agreed to install engine shields to prevent stones from disabling the steering assembly. 18 models were affected: Centurion, Electra, Estate Wagon, LeSabre, Riviera, Belair, Biscayne, Brookwood, Caprice, Impala, Kingswood, Kingswood Estate, Townsmen, Olds 88 and 98, Bonneville, Grand Ville, and Catalina.
#5. Ford 1971 (4.1 million vehicles): Seatbelt shoulder harnesses on 1970 and ‘71 Ford Rancheros, Lincolns, Mercurys, and Fords
#4 GM 1981 (5.8 million vehicles): Some drivers learned the hard way that suspension bolts in certain GM models had a way of wiggling themselves loose. The result? The loss of ability to steer the car.
#3. GM 1971 (6.7 million vehicles): In 1971, some GM customers got the ride of their lives as engine mounts began separating from frames and falling back onto throttles. The models with these rocket-like tendencies included Belair, Brookwood, Camaro, Caprice, Chevrolet, Chevy II, G Series, Impala, Kingswood, Nova, P Series, C Series, and Townsmen.
#2. Ford 1996 (8.6 million vehicles):In 1996, after customers complained of fires caused by faulty ignition systems, Ford Motor Co. recalled vehicles including 1998-’93 Escorts, Mustangs, Tempos, Thunderbirds, Cougars, Crown Vics, Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Cars, Aerostars, Broncos, and F-series trucks.
#1 Ford 2008 (12 million vehicles) In February of 2008, Ford issued the industry’s largest-ever recall, affecting Lincoln and Mercury SUVs, pickups, cars, and vans of model years ‘93 to ‘04. The lowly cruise-control switch was behind this mother-of-all do-overs. It had a nasty habit of catching fire, sometimes hours after the vehicle had been parked and turned off.

[jobycom]

31. Weird. They are bragging about 34 MPG?

If I drive really poorly I can maybe drop my Prius down to about 42. Normal driving it averages between 47 and 52. Careful driving can top that.

Car and Driver didn't even compare it the Prius, even though the Prius has almost identical interior measurements and carries more cargo. The Fusion has a bigger engine, but I've never had a problem exceeding every speed limit I've encountered in the Prius. For most people the only measurable difference will be the ten MPG less they get with the Fusion.

[DainBramaged]

47. Of course, why should any attempt by the Domestics be worthy of your praise?

:eyes:

god ToyHonNis can do no wrong, even if the rest of their line ups are bulging with gas guzzlers, the Peeus give them absolution.

[jobycom]

63. I can't understand the argot of your text, but I'll comment on your title.

If someone wants to by a second-best car for top-rate dollars, that's their business. I'm questioning why these stories rank it so highly when it doesn't earn it. If it's just because there's an American flag waving over it, then screw that. That's pure Republican.

As for your text, no fucking idea what a "god ToyHonNis" is...? :shrug:

[DainBramaged]

65. Of course you don't get it, you give ToyHonNis absolution for ONE fucking car

Stay in your bubble, enjoy your imported car while the rest of America looks to free itself from the transplants. Why should you care about being a Patriot. That's not Republican, that's American.

[jobycom]

69. Hmm, sorry, slow-witted today, I missed the sarcasm. My bad. nt

[Kalyke]

68. Second-best car for top-rate dollars?

Um... American cars are cheaper to buy, cheaper to fix and, in-so-far as any I've ever owned, break down far less.

Not really sure what you're talking about.

[jobycom]

70. Fusion versus Prius. This isn't WW III, just one car versus another.

They are in the same price range--looks like the base Fusion is more.

[spinbaby]

50. I've gottin 34 in my Prius

When the temperature drops below 0, I get mileage in that range. Normal mileage is around 44 in the winter and a bit over 50 in the summer. Still, in four or five years when I'm ready to part with my Prius, I'll take a look at the Ford.

[jobycom]

64. I've never driven it in temps that cold, but would the Fusion do better

when the temps dropped? If so, it's worth a look, but the article doesn't say anything about that.

[jsamuel]

117. theoretically, it should drop mpg when it gets cold too

it is due to batteries and their temperature, so it should effect the cars the same

[jobycom]

118. I thought it was also due to greater electric consumption.

The heater and fan run continuously, so it uses more battery juice. That's what I always figured, anyway.

[jsamuel]

120. no, it is due to the battery

batteries cannot get energy out of the battery when it is cold. They kind of go into energy hibernation. When it is warm, they are able to get the energy much more readily. However, the optimum operating temperature is probably between 50-70F.

There may be other factors like the one you suggest, but the battery temperature is the major factor.

[jobycom]

121. Thanks, never realized that. So it won't help to turn off the heater and freeze, then.

I no longer have to feel guilty!

[jsamuel]

122. Well, the fan uses very little energy and the heat comes from the engine which uses no energy.

The only case in which it would use a lot of energy to have the heater on is if you are parked or going very slow, like under 35mph.

[SmileyRose]

83. Prius carries more cargo than Fusion? BWAAHAHAHA

With 4 passengers?? LOL

You people are funny.

[jobycom]

90. Yes. 12 cubic feet compared to 14.

Check out the stats.

And from my own experience, since the Prius is a hatchback, that 14 is probably underestimated. I've carried five people and a lot of stuff in it many times.

[SmileyRose]

93. snort LOL

who are you kidding? To get the cargo space anywhere close to Fusion's trunk space you have to fold down the back seat in a Prius. Claiming you can take 5 adults AND have more cargo space than Fusion at the same time is just a flat out lie. You can do one or the other in a Prius but you can't have both at the same time. With Fusion you can.

[jsamuel]

102. I fit 4 people and a 50" television in mine.

I know you can't do that with the Fusion. How about a 8 or 10 foot ladder? Prius, check.

[SmileyRose]

106. LOL

A 50" flat screen does not take up 14 cu ft of cargo space. And you won't get a 10' ladder all the way in even if you wedge it up again the front windsheild. Even an 8' is going to be wedged in pretty tight to get that and all 4 adults in the car.

Look, a hatchback has it's uses, but to claim you can get an equal cargo with all adults as a Fusion is just laughable on it's face. Which BTW, Fusion trunk space is 15.8 cu ft, not the 12 something you stated.

[jobycom]

112. Do you always laugh at people who know more than you?

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2010/ford/fusionhybrid/101141447/specs.html
Maximum Cargo Capacity: 12 cu. ft

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/toyota/prius/100920075/specs.html
Luggage Capacity: 14.4 cu. ft

And I don't know about a ten foot ladder, but I've gotten several ten foot 2x4s in mine. And an eight foot ladder. That's not unusual for hatchbacks, though.

Here, just for your amusement (education seems beyond hope). Calculate--looks like at least 2x3x5, which is 30 cubic feet, with the seat down:
http://priusonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4398&view=next

[SmileyRose]

150. The neighbor has been in the market so we tested this out yesterday and you are full of it.

BTW, according to the Toyota website, Prius has 110.4 cu ft of cargo space, not 114.

We went to the local Toyota store with the neighbor's husband's pickup truck full of test cargo. We started with an 8 foot ladder and two 8 foot 2x4's. The 8 foot cargo will be about 2 inches from the dashboard. There is only room for 2 adults because the front passenger seat has to be moved all the way forward and laid back, and the 60 split behind it has to be folded down. This leaves room for the driver and 1 adult right behind the driver in the 40% section of the back seat.

A 10 foot anything would not fit at all. Not even slightly flexible moldings we tucked under the dashboard in the front passenger footwell. They stick about 3 inches out the back hatch.

We tried a 10 yr old child's bike and had to fold down both sides of the back seat in order to accomplish it. We even tried to stand it up behind the back seat with the handlebars loosened and twisted flat with the bike. It was too tall so we tried to angle it a little, but it did not fit enough to close the hatch. So the bike fits with room for 2 front passengers.

Next was the empty boxes the neighbor's 4 bookshelves came in. Each box was 76"x31"x5". This is exactly the kind of cargo a hatch is tailored to. In Prius, we were a bit surprised they did not quite fit with the back seats folded down and put the boxes up against the front seats. We were a few inches short on space to close the hatch. They had to go in slightly crossways and we had to fold down both back seats and lay back the front passenger seat. There was room for the driver only. A passenger could have ridden unseatbelted back in the hatch area behind the boxes illegally if push came to shove.

We tried luggage for 4, the 4 folding chairs and cooler for our mountain or beachtrips. We tried at least 4 configurations and even the salesman got into the act trying to convince us it would work. Even if we illegally and unsafely blocked the view out of the back window this could not be accomplished at all. The slope down on the back window of the hatch cuts off some of the storage space. We even tried putting all the smaller bags in the back seat with passengers, making them quite uncomfortable for a trip, but even then the rest would not fit into the cargo area. In actuality it was only 3 suitcases because my husband and I are light packers and share one medium sized case.

-----------------

Next on to my Fusion. After consulting with the Ford dealer, we determined what part of the current trunk space will be lost in the hybrid, and were informed the trunk space will be uniformly shallower by 3 inches. We took a current Fusion and built up the floor of the trunk by 4" with stacked scrap wood from our workshop go mimic the space in the hybrid. Since the 40% side of the back seat is on the passenger side, this left 2 seatbelts available in the back seat. We managed to get an 8 foot ladder in by losing the front passenger seat and one back seat passenger. This left 3 seatbelted positions rather than the 2 available in Prius. the space available in the back was suitable for one grown man and a child or skinny teen or 2 smaller adults ( we got the 2 women back there but it was a little friendly). We could get 10' molding boards in by bending them slightly into the foot space of the front passenger seat, but most 10' materials would not go in if it's not slightly flexible.

Score 1 for Fusion with one passenger more than Prius.

next on to the child's bike. We had to loosen the handlebars the twist them flat but with no problem were able to get the bike into the modified trunk space, close the lid and still have plenty of room for all 3 back seat belted positions.

Score another for Fusion.

Next came the bookcase boxes. We had to lose the entire back seat to get all 4 in but they fit behind the front seats with about an inch to spare. They were a bit snug side to side but fit. We had room for the driver and a front seat passenger.

Score 3 for Fusion.

Finally the luggage test. With the loss of 4" of trunk depth I was skeptical about getting everything in the trunk. It took 2 tries to reconfigure how we put it in but it all fit, including our favorite cube cooler. We did have to take the tacklebox full of road hazard equipment that stays in the car out, but with the hybrid Fusion, this would easily fit into the smaller pop up section that will be in the far back, under the trunk floor.

Score 4 for the Fusion.

-----------

Now, to be fair - we decided to test packing in our ottoman and 2 dining chairs. Larger cargo is what hatchbacks are for. In the Prius with both back seats down we had no trouble configuring them all in, through the hatch opening but none would fit through the back seat doorways no matter how we tried. I expected trouble with the Fusion. However, the back seat doorways are just enough larger that we were able to get the ottoman into the truck space and both dining chairs into the back seat without folding the seats down. Both cars held this cargo with 2 front passengers.

This was a tie.

Prius wins on mileage. With a hatch there is bound to be more versatility when passenger space is sacrificed. There is nothing wrong with having to cut out passengers to get the occasional large cargo home. When I had my 1984 Escort wagon we did this all the time. It was shocking what I could get into that car. I loved that hatch - which by the way is still on the road with over 400,000 miles on the original drive train and still getting upwards of 30 mpg overall.

I urge you to advocate for Prius on it's actual merits. It has a very good place in the marketplace and I am very glad Toyota, a historically risk averse company, took the risk to develop Prius and put it into production.

[zagging]

151. Applause. That is quite an effort.

I am wondering if you are in the market for a car, or if you did all that to settle the argument.

Nice job either way. I would have closed one eye, looked at them both sideways, then given it my best guess.

On edit: I see the neighbor is looking.

[cherokeeprogressive]

113. A 10 foot ladder INSIDE a car that's 175.0 inches long. MM hmm.

A Panasonic Viera 50" TV has the following dimensions: 50W x 33.3H x 15.2D

You're going to fit that INSIDE a Prius plus FOUR passengers? I gotta call bullshit on that, sorry.

[jsamuel]

114. It was a westinghouse 47" in a box that added about 3"

I couldn't remember the length of my ladder, that is why I said "8 or 10" feet. It must be 8 feet, but it fit by folding down one side of the back seat and the front passenger seat.

The TV fit by going through the hatchback and over the seat. It wasn't comfortable at all, but we got 4 people in there too.

[cherokeeprogressive]

124. See my post #119. I accidentally put it in the wrong place.

[cherokeeprogressive]

119. Well let's explore this a little further.

A 2009 Prius has 52.9 inches of shoulder room in the rear seat. So we'll go with a 46" Panasonic. In the box it's 32.5 inches high. Laid on its side, that leaves 20.4 inches of shoulder room to be divided between two people. Is that about what you remember? That two adults shared 20.4 inches of shoulder room?

[jobycom]

110. Again, check the facts. Mine are facts, yours are some silly assumption. nt

[LWolf]

48. Ask me in 2020, when

we'll have a decade of repair bills to compare.

If the Ford spends less time and $$ on repairs, and has fewer breakdowns, than the Toyota, I'll give you a raised fist or something, since I don't do "amens."

Meanwhile, my best and oldest friend in the world just bought the '09 model. I'll be hearing all about it for the next several years. ;)

[Kalyke]

58. Not surprising at all.

Toyota has sucked for several years. It's just that people still think it's 1988.

My Ford is much more reliable than my husband's foreign POS.

[Stevenmarc]

62. Gee do you think that in this economic climate

That the American automotive press might have just the slightest incentive to promote American car companies? The truth is that the Fusion, Camrey and the Altima are pretty close competitors in regards to specifications so quite frankly the choice of one over the other is totally subjective, which is good for the automotive press, they don't have to go that far out on a limb to promote domestics.

That said, I'm glad Ford put out a product that can compete.

[zagging]

94. I'm happy and grateful that Ford is competing for space

Periodicals like Car and Driver have hyped foreign cars for years. I'm not a gear head, but It ALWAYS seems that domestics get the short shrift. Car comparisons seem to always tout the foreign makes and end up with, "and then of course there's this crappy domestic in the same class. It'll get you there, but WOW, but for our money, the ToyHondiZuk is Grrrrrrreat!".

It's nice to see some domestic hype for something other than the F150. I can't tell you how gratifying it was to read the line comparing it to the $100K Lexus. That'll raise a few eyebrows. A little over done, but schweet.

[Stevenmarc]

103. I agree that they have "hyped foreign cars for years"

but times have changed and with that I have seen an editorial shift to make every effort to push a more technically competitive American product.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. AMEN!!!!! And LMFAO At The Wackydoodle Nose Lifters!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[spoony]

109. Amen to THAT!

The haters' hissy fit is simply hilarious.

[flvegan]

100. Keep up the good work, Ford.

You've certainly come a long way. The Fusion hybrid is obviously something to be very proud of.

[bridgit]

115. We're planning the purchase of one, we like our little Focus and have been watching this development

very closely :)

[ContinentalOp]

125. I don't get it. More expensive and worse mileage than a Prius. No hatchback. Not available yet...

Made in MEXICO!? What's the big deal here? :shrug:

[JVS]

132. Mexico?

Uh oh!

[n2doc]

137. yep. I want a car BUILT HERE

This does not help the american car worker.

[Lex]

141. I think it's only a move in the right direction. Beats them cranking out more FUVs.

nt

[buzzycrumbhunger]

142. How about a comparison 5 years down the line?

My son totaled my Caravan (which I loved and ran like a champ forever) and I ended up with a Windstar. Within a year, the window motors started dying. ALL of them. I went to see if they could fix them and the guys at two different repair shops just laughed at me, saying that Ford's motors are designed to fail. It's inevitable. I was looking at about $250 each because they were a bitch to get to. Whilst I pondered this (you haven't lived until you've dealt with a drive-through world that isn't friendly to people who have to physically get out of their car to do business), the A/C died--first front, then back. The lighter socket failed (nope, not a fuse). Major engine parts started failing. The capper was when a something underneath broke off as we flew down I-75 and ripped my gas filler completely off.

Not my first such experience with a Ford, but the fact that it was a fairly new car and the repair guys shared the opinion that they were designed to rack up repair bills really pissed me off. I felt very lucky to get anything at all as a trade-in and am back to a Chrysler (a PT Cruiser)--but though I love it's Bug-like qualities, I'm once again disappointed in features, quality, and mileage.

I just don't get the feeling US auto makers have been serious about winning back our business. Remember when "made in China" meant crap quality? They all have a long way to go to convince us "made in the USA" is any better.

[Roadless]

144. If only it could top them in reliability.

It's a nice start.