I think I’d rather be water boarded than deal with a car salesperson

[Cyrano]

Given the condition of the auto industry, you’d think that car manufacturers and dealerships would be virtually giving cars away for the smallest of profits. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.

My 10-year old wheels have had it, so I spent the weekend at car dealerships looking for a two or three year old “pre-owned” auto. (Don’t you just love the term “pre-owned?” How come it’s not applied to houses, recycled paper goods, and divorced people?)

I visited four dealerships and every salesperson I dealt with made me feel like a sucker, ripe for the pickings. I did my homework online, but it didn’t matter one bit. The market value prices I found, and the prices the salespeople were asking, had nothing to do with each other.

And they were all still playing their same old game of “Let me go talk to my manager about that. – Sorry, but he won’t budge.”

I admit that I’m not the greatest negotiator in the world, but I have little patience with sitting across from some creature licking his/her chops at the idea of having me for lunch.

Given this weekend’s experiences, I’m really not sure whether I’d rather go through it again, or get water boarded. I’ve never been water boarded, but having to deal with car salespeople really should be classified as a form of torture.

I’m currently combing the papers for cars being sold by owners. The price differences are astounding. Yeah, there’s a risk in buying from an owner, but I wouldn’t buy anything without having my mechanic check it out.

I guess the bottom line here is that, given the shortage of buyers today, auto manufacturers, dealers and their salespeople seem to be assisting in their own demise. They don’t seem to realize that so many Americans are broke and will squeeze every penny.

[Warpy]

1. "OK, see ya"

is the only response when the manager won't budge. I've then entered into direct negotiations with the manager.

They are desperate and don't want anybody with money to walk out the door.

I hate haggling, too, although I'll do it if I have to.

It's popular in the auto industry because men love to brag about how much they got shaved off the price of the car (never mind the price was inflated 10% to give the company room to lower it 5% and make him feel like a great bargainer instead of a mark).

Saturn was successful until GM took it over because they eliminated the haggling.

[AlCzervik]

2. the easiest car buying experience i had was doing all the finding and negotiating online.

This is what i did, maybe you can try this okay?

I already knew what i wanted and i knew how much i was willing to pay, i contacted 3 dealers via "Internet sales" and then waited, all three responded to me right away and i ended up picking the one that did not charge me the "destination" fee, i got the price i was willing to pay and not a Penny over, once you move even one dollar in their direction it's game over.

The best part, since i dealt with the Internet sales department when i went into the dealer i saw the guy i dealt with online, signed the paperwork and drove home with my new car.

[Cyrano]

10. Sounds good, but I don't want a new car

The difference in price between a new car, and one two years old with low mileage is tremendous.

I'm doubt I can buy a used car online since it's something you actually need to see and check out before making an offer. But thanks for the info.

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. There's no risk buying from private parties that doesn't exist at a dealership.

At least a private party knows what's wrong with his car and (at worst) will have to look you in the eye and lie.

I've bought a few used cars from dealers, but I've had better luck with private parties.

[zagging]

4. I never have to mess around

I can get employee discounts at F, GM, and DCX. I tell them what I need and I get it for a set price.

I feel for you. I don't think I've ever heard a good story about car salespeople.

[harun]

5. They won't change for anything. Their philosophy is as long as every

dealer and salesman acts the same way they will continue to get away with it. Enough of the people fall for the cons to keep them afloat. I am glad to see you didn't.

I don't know what I will do once I need a new vehicle. I dread the thought. New car prices are double what they should be. Will probably look for 2-3 years old like you.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

18. I have news for you. The customers won't change either.

Like the old saying: It takes two to tango.

I worked for a dealership back in the day and I'll tell you the buyers lie and obfuscate just as much as the salespeople.

The process is a dirty horse-trading business and I don't think it will ever change. I was at a Buick dealership when Buick tried their hand at "one price" selling - It was a huge disaster and it ended up pissing off more people because the customers were CERTAIN they were getting screwed.

It's unfortunate but the business is set up like the rest of our economy - the sharp assholes get a good deal and the nice suckers pay too much. Try and change it buy setting a "fair" price/profit for the dealer and the sharp assholes will scream bloody murder because they are paying too much.

Buy a Saturn? You paid too much - but you didn't get hassled.

Buy from Carmax? You paid too much. Their "one price" price is/was set at N.A.D.A. retail (or wholesale, it's been a few years since I researched it. I admit things may have changed) which is on the high end of the spectrum. When I researched their prices I found they were around 1200-1300 dollars high from what you could buy a comparable car - IF YOU SHOPPED AND NEGOTIATED.

All of the one price sale scenarios certainly don't fix the trade-in dilemma. If you get a rock bottom "wholesale" price on the new car are you going to want "retail" for YOUR car? How's that gonna work? But you will scream bloody murder when the dealer doesn't pay retail (or Blue Book - whatever that is)for your car.

Oh, and buy from a private party because they are more honest? LOL.....they would never cheat you buy putting heavy weight oil in the engine to mask a rod knock...LOL...I once had a little old lady tell me she had her son doctor the engine before they sold it on "the street" to a "sucker." I heard those stories all the time. They BRAGGED about it. I guess it feels good to be the best horse-trader. We caught a local "respected businessman" red-handed rolling back mileage before he traded. Customers would confide in us the shit they pulled (doctoring engines and transmissions) AFTER they traded the car in, as a kind of fuck-you to the dealer. I would remind them we turned around and sold it to a neighbor of theirs.


Want one price? Pay the dealer's first offer and be done with it. Anything else and you are PART of the problem.

[harun]

21. "It's unfortunate but the business is set up like the rest of our economy"

How many other things do I have to buy from a salesman?

0.

They just need to get rid of all the salesman and I would be happy. They are wasting money on them. I don't need a salesman for buying items a lot more expensive than my car (like my house), I don't need one for the car either. Let me order every bit of it online and then the salesman can go look for honest work instead.

[Andy823]

6. It depends on the area you live in.

Since my father in law was a car dealer for many years, I learned that you have to "haggle" with the salesman, it's their job, and they make a commission of of whatever they can get you to pay. I have gone to lager cities in the past, after my father in law passed away, to buy new and used cars. When they pulled the old, I have to talk with the manager crap and then come back and say he wouldn't budge, I said will thanks for the time, but I have other dealers to see. Most times they would say, wait I will go back and try again. Sometimes they would do this 3 even 4 times before they got down to what I knew the price should be.

Now I deal on a local level in another town about 30 miles away, and I have found that dealing with them is much easier than in a big city. I simply tell them that I know what the prices are, and that I have done research on the internet. I have found that many times, even on a local level, the salesman does not know about all the new deals out there, new cars, and all one has to do is have them check it out on their dealer only sites. I have even gotten extra discounts that I didn't know about by making them check for me. As far as used cars, they always have room to deal with you, and they pretty much know just how far down they can go. Some salesmen want a larger commission, and won't go down, but the smart ones know they can make more money selling more cars than trying to screw you over by keeping the price high. I also know that if you have a trade in, don't tell them until you have agreed on a price. If you do they will not come down as far, usually around a thousand dollars difference in your favor. Also make sure you find the value of your car online. If you know what they going value of you car is, you won't get screwed on the price of your trade in.

[47of74]

9. There's a guy down in Mt. Vernon, Iowa who doesn't pay commissions

He pays his sales people a straight salary rather than any commissions. I bought a car from him, and my neighbors still make the 80 mile trek down there every few years to get a car from him.

[Cyrano]

15. That sounds like a great idea. More dealers should try this.

[Spike89]

7. I'm with you

My wife and I bought a new car last weekend. We'd shopped around, took a few test drives, researched for months, then went out to purchase. We knew exactly what we wanted, a new or low-mile used Mazda 3 hatchback with an automatic. It was a Friday afternoon (4 pm) when we arrived--the only people on a huge lot, well unless you count the vulture-like sales people.

The guy that latched onto us seemed semi-interested (guess he figured we weren't realistic buyers judging from the 15-year old beater Sentra we limped onto the lot in). He showed us a 2009 model with 16,000 miles that was almost exactly what we were looking for. I asked him over and over "What do you need for this and is it a better deal than a new model with the incentives currently in place?" He hedged and said it was a great value.

Finally, we went into the office and he brings me an offer sheet. The price was $1,000 over the sticker price for a brand new model! I have no negotiating skills, so I substitute indignation and anger. My wife was totally shocked by how angry I got (I wasn't that angry tho). Of course, the sales manager came over and I never said another word to the salesman. The sales manager asked what I wanted, I told her a brand new car, with all the options we wanted (somewhat better than the used car we were considering) and I told her I wanted to see her best offer right then. She came back with a price almost $4000 less than they'd quoted for a used, lesser model! By the time we left, we'd gotten another $1,000 off the deal and felt exhausted by almost guilty at the bargain we got (I am not good at this).

The point is that they are jerks, but they are desperate jerks right now. They don't have many customers (we were on the lot for nearly 5 hours on a friday afternoon/evening and no other customers!) They seem to want to squeeze the rare customer, then are willing to practically give away the store rather than making you walk.

[CoffeeCat]

16. That was our exact experience...

I wrote my story below, and you said it exactly as it is.

Car dealers figure that the rare person who walks onto a lot these days--has some cash. They will not negotiate--and will even try to screw you in the
beginning. But really, they are desperate as hell, and if you wear them down, as you did--you can get a great deal.

It sounds like your anger worked in your favor. They probably felt as if they were dealing with someone who was onto their games, and
was not amused. They felt that they had to give you a great deal, or you would have walked and they never would have seen you again.

You know what they did to us? The price of the car we were looking at was a certain price--and it was clearly written on a big yellow
tag hanging on the rear-view mirror. They next day we returned, my husband went to that same car--and the yellow tag was still there.
Then we talked with the salesperson for a while, walked over to the car and the yellow tag was GONE and was replaced with a different
tag and the price was $1,500 more.

Ohhhhhhhhhh...we were both so pissed. And they knew it. They tried to say it was an oversight, and my husband and I were clearly
angry, and we were joking about how insulting it was.

Ultimately, when they do things like that, and don't get away with it--you can obtain the upper hand.

I think they try this nonsense to increase the number of buyers who pay through the nose--because (as you said) they are desperate.

Glad your situation worked out for you.

[CoffeeCat]

8. I sooooo know what you are feeling!

We were in the same boat a month ago. We had a ten-year old car and we needed to purchase a vehicle SOON.

We went to a local dealership, and found a Pontiac G6 that we thought was cheap and in great condition. It was a 2007, and
was marked lower than at many dealerships.

We tried to haggle, just like you--and we found ourselves completely shut out at first. And like you we were astounded. We
assumed that we could name our price, because the auto companies are desperate. Everyone knows that sales are down. The
guy wanted to give us a pittance for our used car and refused to go down more than $200 on the Pontiac.

And yes, we did the whole, "I have to go talk to my sales manager" crap. We stood around waiting for so long while this
went on. I said to my husband, "What in the hell are they talking about" and my husband said, "The Superbowl probably...this
is all a game." Turns out, it is a game. All of that manager stuff is bunk. So is talking about their children and showing
your pictures of their kids--have they tried that one on ya??? It's all designed to wear you down, and feel bad that you're
asking for a good deal.

Here's what we did. We let them know that we needed to buy a car within the next week. People may suggest that this is allowing
them to know that you are desperate. Actually, it let them know that we would be definitely buying a car in a week and that
we weren't messing around or "just looking." Then, you give them your phone number, if they ask. Again, some may suggest that
you'll just get harassing calls, but it provides another opportunity for negotiating.

After we said that they weren't coming down enough on the price--we left. We flat out said that we were going to continue looking at
other places. Then, we got the phone call--telling us that they would give us $500 more for our car and take off $500 more on the
price of the car. We strung them along. I hemmed and hawed--said I had to talk to my husband (see, if they can pull this shit on
us, we can pull it on them!).

We then returned to the dealership. We asked for $1,000 more off the car. They flat out said no, and treated us like we were crazy.

We walked again. Then got the phone call again. They came down another $250. We knew we had them at this point, so we returned to the
dealership a few days later, and we finally got what we wanted.

It's all a game. Just toy with them. You're not the victim here...you're the one in control. You've got the cash.

I think most dealerships figure that most people looking at cars right now--have got money to spend. So, they are even more stingy at first
about working a deal. However, they are desperate as hell. If you convince them that you are buying a car from SOMEONE--and string them
along, and reject their first and second offers--you can end up getting a good deal.

Good luck.

[seabeyond]

11. i got a car in dec. let me tell you my story. i dont dicker, i hate it. hubby took over

a whole different world. he knew company sale employee discount and that was his first demand. they gave it to him quickly. he was busy at work so i went in to do. i got the 0% interest immediately. they were going to make up for it on trade in

i am sittin there to put deal together and htey just run over to hubby business to get signature and they were 4k less on trade in that should. husband doing all nighters with computer/server problems for customers and he says no.. walk.

so i do. they follow asking when, when. when he isnt busy i say. three days later we walk in. they raise trade in 1k. he says nope. they "compromise" 500. he compromise 400 and said that is it. they say no, he says bye..... lol lol. we start leaving and they gave it to us

but yes, it is the whole damn thing of just a minute, and walking into another room

it was all bullshit.

and my guy was sleeze.

you need a hard ass like hubby was willing to be that i simply refuse to be.

[drmeow]

12. “pre-owned?” How come it’s not applied to houses

Actually - in Arizona it is applied to houses. I've even heard people say things like "You bought a used house."

[Cyrano]

24. What would you expect?

Last year, Arizona tried to sell us all a well-used politician for president.

:sarcasm:

[Book Lover]

13. If you can, online is what I'd recommend

Craigslist, vehix, autotrader... Good luck!

on edit: just saw your reply above. The sits I mention above can narrow your search to your local area, so you can still check out the cars in person before you buy them.

[NNN0LHI]

14. What do auto manufacturers have to do with you not being able to buy a cheap used car?

Used car salesmen know they have a sucker as soon as they know someone wants to purchase a used car in the first place. I never got rid of any good used cars in my life. I only got rid of the junks that were nickel and dimeing me to death or had been in an accident.

Don

[TuxedoKat]

17. Have you

checked Ebay? That is how we bought my last car (one year old). We got the car we wanted at the price we were willing to pay. The dealership was fine to work with too. They said if we came down to get the car and didn't like it, we didn't have to take it either.

[Ioo]

19. Best Way EVER to shop for a car is by phone... Just my plan...

So I have done this twice and both times I think I have made really good deals...

1. Find the car make / model you want
2. find the options you want
3. go to a site like edmonds.com and see what the sticker is, the wholesale is, and so on.

HERE IS SOMETHING MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. The dealer does not pay wholesale for the car. Larger dealers get "volume" discounts of about 3-5%.

4. Go to the dealers site, MOST of them have the entire inventory online now.
5. Find the car you want, and get the stock number...

CALL

6. Ask to speak to the sales manager, say "I wanted to know your best price on Y28839283. If you could check and call me back, I am looking to buy in the next day or so"

Rinse and Repeat with 2 other dealers...

7. Play them aginst each other... trust me, they will call you back.

DO NOT LISTEN to them when they tell you they can not sell the car that close to invoice. I would go invoice + 1% BEFORE the factory incentives. Most of the time that $500 off, that is given to the dealer.

Car's invoice is $20,000 (MSRP $24,998)

Your offer $20,400 + incentives

so if they have a 2500 cash back, then your price should be shooting for is 17,900.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

25. From my years of working in the business, that's the best way to do it.

No need for all this hand-ringing about how crooked the dealers are. Because this thread is an example that buyers can be assholes too - "toying" with "desperate" people. All we need is someone to admit doctoring their trade-in with heavy oil to mask a bad rod-knock.

Your strategy also offers an extra bonus in that you can ask the sales manager to hook you up with a competent friendly salesperson to do the actual paperwork and delivery. When I was a sales manager I would hook you up with one of my mid-level selling/producing people. I say mid-level because the top people were assholes I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies and the lower end people were usually new or incompetent.

The Chicago Tribune used to print a page with ALL dealer and customer incentives INCLUDING non-advertised back-end dealer cash. It was pretty accurate. I assume they still print it or it can be found on-line somewhere.

[DainBramaged]

20. Some important tips from someone who knows a great deal as to how this works (me)

The Internet is your friend. Remember that.

Once you find a car you think you like, (either on the Internet or shopping the lots) your BEST friend is Kelly Blue Book and NADA is your smart uncle. Kelly blue book will give you approximate trade in values for ALL vehicles with all equipment. They are the closest to the services the dealers use than any other. Next, NADA, those little books in the library and on line, is very critical, because the BANK VALUE is exactly how much the bank wil loan on that car, and THAT is the formula the dealers use to determine profit margins on used cars (depending on how much they want you to put down to make up th difference). Some dealers mark up $5000+, others less. Also remember that used cars provide the profits a dealer doesn't make on new cars.

Also, buy a CERTIFIED Used car, it's worth it. This way you don't have to pay extra for warranties (GM is the balance of the 5 year 100,000 mile powertrain and 12 months, 12,000 miles, other makes vary).

Decide what you want to pay over NADA bank value and go from there. Ad GET A CARFAX report before you buy. Also, with GM, you have THREE DAYS to kill the deal after you buy it, no questions asked.


http://www.kbb.com/

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx

[Cyrano]

22. These are some good stories you guys have posted

I find it amazing that, given current conditions, these salespeople still think we can be had.

I can still remember news photos of Russians standing in line to buy -- anything.

Our auto dealerships seem to have not gotten the memo that, not only can we not pay their asking prices, but that we also are "mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore."

As I said in the OP, I went to four different dealerships. At three of them, the salesperson actually followed me outside as I was leaving. Two of them offered me about a thousand bucks trade in for my car (which I'd actually have to pay someone to tow away).

Nonetheless, what they were asking was so out of line with the online info I had, that I really didn't want to talk to them, or their managers. I just wanted to get out of there before they could sink their fangs into my neck.

Do you suppose there's a factory somewhere that teaches clones to smile and lie, and then ships them off to auto dealerships to sell cars?

And as for the dealers who take on these salespeople, I'm sure they have a common motto: "Send in the clones."

[DainBramaged]

23. With rare exception (I know of a few here in New Jersey)

Auto sales people are some of the sleaziest con-artists you'll ever want to meet. Where else can you make $1000 a week (commissions) and sit on your ass all day except when you have to walk out to the lot to talk to someone.


Highway dealerships suck, it's the neighborhood dealerships that don't screw around because they COUNT on the towns around them for business so they don't want to screw any one.

[GaYellowDawg]

26. I tried to work as a car salesman once...

I lasted a month, and quit. I couldn't handle all the lies that went on. This car lot was all about the hard sell and I had 2 managers screaming at me because I didn't club the customers over the head and get them inside the building. I would just tell people who were on the fence that I liked the cars I was selling - I did - and they should take a couple of days to think over such a big purchase. Towards the end, when I knew that I was going to quit, when the used car manager really tried to screw them, I would tell them that I couldn't get anything past him and they should probably shop around. People would just about drop over when I said these things.

Well, I ran into another one of the sales reps in the grocery store a couple of months later. He was a manager himself and he tried to hire me on the spot. I said, are you kidding? I only sold 2 vehicles in a month! He said that in the two weeks after I left, 11 vehicles got sold to people who'd come back asking for me. They'd apparently gone home, decided they were dealing with someone honest, decided they wanted the vehicle, and came back in ready to buy. I declined the job, though; I was pretty sure it would have gotten to me at some point and I would have turned into another shark.

[Cyrano]

27. I can sympathize with you. I'd have a hard time selling water in the desert.

[IDemo]

31. Try selling accident insurance door to door.

Worst job of my life (30+ years ago).

[KamaAina]

28. I’d rather be waterboarded than deal with ANY "customer service" rep!

even one that hasn't (yet) been outsourced!

Case in point: Cable is in someone else's name. She was fixing up the place while I was traveling, and had it hooked up while I was traveling. Now I can't get digital cable or Road Runner or anything -- because I'd have to fight with them to get it put in my name! All I can do is keep paying the bills...

[Stevenmarc]

29. The average 2-3 year old car is a car that's coming off lease

and that's where there where the problem is, if this was a perfect world the market value prices would be in line with the prices you were quoted because leases generally finance the depreciation. Unfortunately, a lot of leases pushed the envelope which on the front end gave to person leasing a great monthly payment but the end of the lease buyout was more than the book value.

[bobbert]

30. This is funny, when I bought my last car, I got lucky with a nice salesman

And the price for the car was exactly what I wanted. It almost seemed too easy. However, after that, they bring you into a back room with some other guy and he needed me to sign off on some sheet that he tried to upsell me on a bunch of crap. He started describing all of this crap to me and I had to initial that I declined the offer. I just went and initialed next to decline on every one and handed it back to him, it was getting really annoying. They tried to upsell so much crap that was useless. The funniest one was some extra warranty on parts that the warranty didn't cover and it was like '500 parts!', I skimmed through some of it and it was things like positive and negative battery wires, battery terminals, wires inside the dashboard and in the seat and stuff. Each single wire was seperate. I bet they get some suckers though.

The negotiation with the 'finance' guy was a nightmare. It took almost an hour to get an interest rate out of him. He just kept spitting out monthly payments and so forth and so on. We finally talked him down to something that was somewhat reasonable then went home just happy to finally have the car. We refinanced the next day for a point and a half lower on the interest rate without any problems.

[Cyrano]

32. This is just one more of the horrible games they play that makes people hate them

I went through this once and told the guy up front that whatever he was selling, I wasn't buying.

It was like talking to a wall. It still took me half an hour to sign the required papers and get out of there, even though I told him that I was ready to walk away from the deal entirely.

Once you set foot into a car dealership, you have to be "Indiana Jones" to escape the perils that await you.