I suspect putting social security in to the market would have delayed this collapse

[TwixVoy]

I suspect that just like the bankruptcy reform act the idea of putting social security in to the market was a pre-emptive plan designed to slowly milk us of that money and feed the market for another several years. Just like using our 401k money to prop up the market.

I believe we would probably be sitting at DOW 14,000 right now if we had put social security in to the market. They would have slowly robbed us blind and used to cash infusion to keep the market up. So perhaps around 2015 or so we would be in this same situation, but they would have gotten our social security cash as well. Basically we would have thought everything was fine... the media would have been going on and on for years about how high the market was taking our social security and what a great plan it was. All the while 90% of the country would have no clue they were being taken for fools.

These people are very clever. They plan years ahead to screw us. Just like bankruptcy reform came about just before the shit hit the fan.

[SheilaT]

1. I disagree, although it's hard to

know what would have been the actual impact. The forces that have fueled this meltdown would not have been affected by an influx of social security money.

[madokie]

10. I agree with you

it would only have been more for the thieves to take. This financial meltdown was more so on purpose as it was by accident. There is no doubt in my mind that the people who could have made a difference back then did not because they wanted this to be the end game.

[BlooInBloo]

2. Interesting notion.

[Political Heretic]

3. Honestly I don't think they're that clever.

[scarletwoman]

7. Sure they are. They suckered everybody into 401ks didn't they? Getting their hands on SS

was the next step of the game.

sw

[Political Heretic]

9. I'm not sure that was a stroke of tactical genius.

[scarletwoman]

12. You think not? Some right wing think tank no doubt thought it up.

Eliminate employer-funded pensions (really helps the corporate bottom line), and then sucker people into handing their money over to Wall Street (where the real manipulators can get their hands on it).

It's worked out quite well for the Big Guys.

sw

[polmaven]

17. Wow!

:tinfoilhat:

[Tangerine LaBamba]

4. I don't think it would have kept anything afloat

for that long.

They'd have run through the SS $$$ in a blink. Maybe a year. Those fuckers don't know how to make money, but they sure do know how to spend it.

That's a facet of all this that no one's commented on - that, ultimately, all these people did was move money around, take out their generous shares, but not actually make anything with it. Not even a profit. Not even a break-even.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. The 401k money has been bad enough. Even the thought of the

SS money in there is beyond horror!

[Selatius]

6. I believe it would have made the collapse even worse.

If you gave the entire Social Security Trust Fund over to private banking institutions, and they used it to peddle irresponsible mortgages to people who cannot afford one and then slap a AAA rating on the security instrument that is then bundled with good mortgages, all with the promise that these new securities are good and will pay back the sucker who bought them, the amount of money lost to thin air when those securities are no longer valuable is beyond imagination. You're talking about a loss many times larger than what we're currently seeing. If what is happening now wasn't enough to push the US into a Second Great Depression, then the US surely would have been brought to its knees in such a depression if it also lost Social Security in the same blow.

[scarletwoman]

8. I don't know how much longer it would have kept the market from collapse, but it's possible

that it might have helped them keep more plates spinning in the air for awhile.

No matter what, it would have meant a considerably bigger haul for the thieves once they took off in their getaway corporate jets.

sw

[customerserviceguy]

11. Well, here's my big fat ignorant question

where is that money now? And if there are assets in some sort of "securities", how will it be paid?

I have far less faith in Social Security than the average person I've seen posting here at DU.

[SheilaT]

15. Many people do not understand just how Social Security is

structured. There's this idea out there that the money the individual pays in is actually held somewhere to be paid back until that person retires. This is the basis of the impetus to "invest" that money in the stock market. In reality, what any of us pays in now goes more or less immediately to those who are currently receiving ss benefits. There is much more being paid in that is being paid out, so there is a "surplus" which, unfortunately, is not being held aside -- the so-called lockbox.

One thing that has bothered me for a good thirty years now, is people saying that it won't be around when they retire. And I've been hearing this since at least the mid-70's. As someone else has said, with that attitude it won't be around.

The Social Security system as structured is very sound, currently has plenty of money, and with just a little tweaking, will be solvent forever.

Also keep in mind that the proposals to put SS money into the market never involved putting all of it, just some fraction.

[customerserviceguy]

20. Oh, I understand all of that

but the system is clearly structured so that any benefits I might possibly get are coming from people whose wages will be paid in the future. Of course, this assumes those folks will all have jobs sufficient to pay me, even though there's less of them, proportionally.

We have two big fat things coming on the near horizon, the first is the hit Social Security is going to take over the totality of this recession/depression (or whatever you want to call it), and the second is the entitlements restructuring that President Obama has already promised to attempt. Worst case scenarios in either one could easily sink all the projections based on the same fairy dust that mortgage-backed derivitives relied on.

[SheilaT]

25. I would respond that if we can afford

to spend trillions of dollars on war, we can afford to spend billions to keep people healthy, fed, and housed in their retirement.

We keep on being told over and over that Social Security is on the edge of bankruptcy. That drum has been pounded since the mid-70's. It's not a difficult fix, and one small one is to go ahead and means test Social Security. If you have some particular income from other sources maybe you should be obligated to forego SS payments. Another fix is to remove the ceiling on wages that pay into SS. Or maybe even collect SS taxes on unearned income above a particular amount.

If you start thinking that it's hopeless and you'll never be able to collect, then you will be a willing accomplice in the dismantling of social security.

[customerserviceguy]

26. I've heard those solutions

and if you both lift the ceiling on wages, AND means-test Social Security, you have eliminated 100% of the support of it by the highest earning people in our society. You're saying, "We will tax you in an unlimited amount, and you won't possibly get anything from the system."

Don't be surprised if they figure a way to wiggle out of it at that point.

[SheilaT]

27. Keep in mind that the Baby Boomers,

of which I'm one, are beginning to retire, and we are not going to forego Social Security lightly. What I suggested is not a total package deal, but simply a number of possibilities. If FICA is paid on all earned income, then means testing to receive SS doesn't make sense. What's really needed is less of a sense of entitlement on the part of the well-off, and a greater sense of willingness to help out those less fortunate.

I never cease to be amazed at those out there who consider themselves good christians and who think it's okay that a significant percentage of our population has no health care, or their kids go to crappy schools, or they are on the edge of homelessness. There's far too much of an emphasis on being self-reliant or lifting oneself up by the bootstraps without any understanding of how much of a boost those who are better off have actually had.

[catnhatnh]

13. Three type of TV ads tell you all you need to know...

1.Structured Settlement "It's my money and I need it NOW!".

2.Reverse Mortgage "Isn't about time your house began paying you?".

3.Cash4Gold "Turn your broken and unused jewelery into CASH!".

They are still going after every last little bit of private equity. There ain't no cash to tempt so all that can be trawled for is inherent value (real estate and precious metals) or private entitlements. Social Security to them is the "one that got away" that they tell each other about around the financial campfire at night.

[HubertHeaver]

14. The SS money would probably have kept the system going

until late 2009 or early 2010. The Republicans would then blare constantly (as they are doing now) that this is all a result of Democratic policies.

[NNN0LHI]

16. No way. The stock market has lost trillions and trillions of dollars over the past year

The Republicans wanted to put a trillion of Social Security money into it. Just enough to bankrupt Social Security was their plan. They were able to steal everyones 401k's. Bankrupting Social Security was their goal.

Don

[Common Sense Party]

24. No one has "stolen" my 401(k).

What on earth do you mean?

[DS1]

18. No, putting SS into the stock market was simply a ploy to

put more money into the coffers of the people benefiting from the inevitable plunge.

[raccoon]

19. I think you're onto something there, Twix! nt

[Mari333]

21. this has already screwed my retirement savings royally

and i get social security in 2 yrs..they better not f with that. thats what will be between me and living in a box under an overpass.

[suston96]

22. There is no actually earmarked Social Security and Medicare cash....It's just an accounting system..

All payroll cash collections as well as interest earned from investing Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds go directly into the US Treasury.

Each person's accounts are credited so that when retirement comes a monthly payment can be determined. But the cash remains in the US Treasury and is co-mingled to be used there to pay all current debts of the United States, including current Social Security and Medicare payments.

There would have been no "Social Security cash" to do anything with because the Social Security cash is in the US Treasury - where the current bailout money eventually came from anyway.

Confused? Go here:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/funds.html

Browse around. Learn how Social Security works. And see why greedy people want to get their hands on what amounts to just a Social Security and Medicare accounting balance and income statement.

[spanone]

23. there would have been more funds to steal

[sarcasmo]

28. It would have put a band aid on the situation for a couple of years and then poof Social Security

Would have been destroyed, which make no mistake was all part of the plan.