JFK and Obama

[Ardent15]

I was reading an in-depth biography of JFK today, and Obama reminds me of him in so many ways. Kennedy truly tried to rise above partisanship and the "old way" and really sought out the most intelligent and most capable people for his administration. At the same time, everybody knew he was in charge, to the point where he didn't even have a white house chief of staff! He was his own chief of staff.

We've really been missing that quality of leadership.

[Captain Hilts]

1. Again, JFK was reckless, had others write his books, was a shit to his wife...

and had much of his life handed to him.

It was JFK's fratboy immaturity that emboldened Khrushchev to place missiles in Cuba. At age 30, I've no doubt Obama would have done better in a room with Khrushchev than JFK did as president.

Obama's best trait is his caution and deliberate way he goes about things.

And, remember, it's Kennedy's people that gave us Vietnam and kept us there. The title "Best and the Brightest" was meant to be ironic.

[Ardent15]

3. Well that was certainly persausive (not)

[Captain Hilts]

4. He ran for office as a fear monger with the "missile gap" with Russia. nt

[Ardent15]

6. That's like saying Obama ran for office as a fearmonger in regards to the economy

No, he wasn't perfect, by any stretch of the imagination: but do you know how many people were inspired to go into public service after his Inaugural Address?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

10. Do you remember that time?

It was easy for young people to go ahead and take part in things - brand new things - like the Peace Corps. There were others - like me - who went South and began to register Negroes who wanted to vote. It was a time that leant itself to such ventures - were were stable and prosperous and Eisenhower, for all his dullness, had left a smooth desk for the new young President.

Who was, let us not forget, owned by the Mob. His "victory" in Illinois belonged solely to the Mob. The misadventures later in Cuba, when Castro came to power and pushed Batista and his Mob buddies out, paved the way for JFK's murder.

Today, young people who want to go into public service, have a very different world awaiting them. Back then, kids didn't come out of school with massive student loan debt, for instance.

It was easy back then.

[Ardent15]

14. I wasn't alive at that time: and Cuba came to power under Eisenhower's watch

Don't give me this unproven conspiracy theory crap.

I do agree with you about public service and young people, though. But even if it was easy, that doesn't motivate someone to go into public service.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

17. You are reading history, then -

And you should keep in mind that you're reading an individual's interpretation of what happened.

Your slavish belief indicates you have a narrow and untested mind. I'm tossing pearls before swine here, so I think it's best you no longer exist now.

Ciao, putz.

[Ardent15]

18. Slavish belief? Excuse me, Mr. Patronizer....

[Tangerine LaBamba]

7. Not?

Read with a more discerning eye and with a wider historical context, which is all.

Captain Hilts is exactly right. JFK, for all his charisma, accomplished very little - his civil rights stances were admirable, but also had to be pried out of him, because he didn't want to do anything to antagonize the Southern Democrats - and did some idiotic reckless things with the Soviets. Khrushchev had his measure, and that emboldened them to start stashing missiles and do all sorts of taunting. I remember that time, and how very frightened everyone was.

Do read "The Best And The Brightest." It's a work of genius. You do need to keep a view of JFK in perspective.

Obama is no JFK, not at all. The only comparison I can make so far is that he speaks in complete paragraphs, and so did JFK. Their intelligence is without question, but for in-depth, thoughtful consideration of problems that are current, Obama's mind is far more capable of taking in all the facets of the issues, while I'm not quite convinced that JFK had that sort of depth.

He really was a lot more like Chimpy Fucknuts in that he had a sense of entitlement. The difference was that JFK had the balls to pick some really outstanding Cabinet members and advisors, but Robert McNamara was one of his choices, and the damage done by that man will never be measured.

[Ardent15]

9. Most of the damage McNamara did was under LBJ: also....

...I'm not saying that Obama is exactly like JFK, but he is intelligent, pragmatic, politically astute, and, most importantly, could inspire the nation to do great things.

Obama, however, really represents America as a whole much more than JFK ever did. Sorry if you find the comparison unfavorable.

[Tangerine LaBamba]

13. JFK was hardly politcally astute

His father's machine and millions did his work for him, built his campaign, bought his votes, and dictated far too many of his Presidential decisions.

JFK, as I said, was far more Chimpy Fucknuts than Barack Obama.

People bought the image - the Camelot crap put out by the hangers-on, like Schlesinger - and they never knew the truth about what was going on because the press, back then, colluded in a conspiracy of silence to protect people like JFK.

[Captain Hilts]

19. The comparison really favors Obama over JFK in a Big Way. nt

[saracat]

30. Hah! Why is it when disparaging Kennedy, and he had his faults

no one thinks to mention he was congressman, senator, Pulitzer prize winning author and a bona fide war hero. We wouldn't have known about his infidelities but the press changed to report garbage. Kennedy and Obama have little in common except speaking in complete sentences and Kennedy was the far better speaker. And we have not yet anything to judge Obama by. Perhaps 8 or 4 years from now we will know. This is a blank slate so far.Obama will create his own persona, and if anything Kennedy, while being a child of wealth, as was FDR, actually broke from the pack and made a difference. It is disgusting to rank him with Bush in any way!

[Captain Hilts]

31. JFK better than Obama extemporaneously. Obama will improve.

JFK didn't write "Profiles in Courage."

JFK, to his credit, never thought of himself as a war hero. His actions after 109 was struck make him a hero in my book.

Right now, Obama's coming out ahead in this race for me. We just don't know how JFK would have turned out.

[saracat]

35. There is no evidence that Kennedy did NOT write Profiles in Courage.

And he also wrote "Why England Slept" which is a vastly superior book.Obama has been president less than a month. Kennedy served as both congressman and Senator and almost served out an entire term as President. History has burnished his legend. We do not yet know how history will treat Obama.But they are very different people and Kennedy while perhaps somewhat concious of his "class" certainly expressed no sense of 'entitlement when he stepped out of it to the benefit of others.

[H2O Man]

37. There is no question

that JFK wrote it. Ted S. did some of his usual editing, but Kennedy wrote it.

If anyone cares to debate this, I will make an OP on the topic, so as to not "highjack" this thread's original and positive message.

[saracat]

39. Thanks for dispelling this unsubstantiated garbage!And Sorenson himself

indicated JFK did , in fact, write the book but some like to disparage JFK! Dunno why, or maybe I do or can hazard a guess!

[H2O Man]

40. I can easily

take that myth and put it to sleep.

[Captain Hilts]

44. Sorenson doesn't have a stake in keeping "Camelot" going? Live and learn. nt

[H2O Man]

49. I posted an essay

on GD-P about the "controversy" over who wrote the book.

[H2O Man]

21. silly

[Captain Hilts]

23. No, you're silly!

[H2O Man]

24. No.

You should have said, "But you are sillier." Then I could correctly respond, "Yet you are the silliest."

It is evident from your constant anti-JFK comments that you do not like him. I think everyone can guess why, after reading two of your comments. Though I admire and respect most of your opinions, I think you would benbefit from reading more than thetrash that JFK's enemies have produced. Come out of the darkness!

[Captain Hilts]

25. Actually, I like JFK quite a lot and would have voted for him. I've read a couple...

of bios, but you're right, 95% are lousy. It's hard to find good ones. I like Richard Reeves the best.

But, as you see further down, I credit him with being a smart guy with a learning curve. That puts him ahead of a lot of presidents. But had he gotten re-elected, he would have found himself in some hot water vis a vis his health, his philandering and Vietnam.

He was a real friend of the USNavy and I know guys that met him on some ships. His tour of USS QUILLBACK in Key West is a great story. All the crew lined up for inspection except for the cook, who suddenly sees JFK come down the crew's mess hatch. He asks the Prez if he would like a cup of coffee. JFK answers that he would. The cook hands him a mug of coffee and JFK takes a couple of gulps then gives himself a tour of the empty sub!

But JFK had a chip on his shoulder that gave a negative energy to some of his political actions. Overall, I think his policies were good, but he got lucky with the Cuban Missile Crisis and I think he learned from it also.

Khrushchev, Harold MacMillan both thought he was immature. I mean, really, discussing his sex drive with Harold MacMillan?

I think Obama has a much better background, resume and attitude to be a FAR better president than JFK. The comparison really serves Obama well and Kennedy poorly.

[H2O Man]

28. Do you like

Martin Luther King, Jr?

[Captain Hilts]

29. Yes, indeed. Why?

[H2O Man]

33. Well.

I thought if your posts about JFK indicate your favorable feelings about him, you might have a strong dislike of MLK -- because it is all too obvious that you have very different standards for judging their characters.

[Captain Hilts]

34. Huh?

I'm saying we got lucky with JFK.

I like MLK. It bothers me that the media uses him to the exclusion of Ralph Bunche, Walter White, A. Phillip Randolph, Mary McLeod Bethune, Benjamin Davis, etc. But that's certainly not King's fault, and if his holiday turns into one of service, that's a good thing. He was a man who took huge, HUGE risks.

My standards for MLK aren't as high as for JFK because he didn't have his finger on the nuclear button. That seriously raises the stakes with me when it comes to character. JFK was playing with fire on a lot of levels. Even RFK was concerned about how JFK was operating.

I'd rather Obama had his hand on the nuclear button than JFK, actually. I know it was the deal breaker in choosing between Obama and McCain for folks I know in the military. They didn't trust McCain with The Button.

[H2O Man]

36. Interesting.

I suppose that it is possible to apply this curious "nuclear button standard difference" to JFK even before he was President, which I think it is fair to say that you have when you post some of the untrue things that have been passed down by his enemies.

[Captain Hilts]

38. How do you feel about his failure to condemn McCarthy and McCarthyism?

Not very courageous of him to dodge the subject.

But JFK isn't all good nor all bad. Most presidents are that way. He handled the Cuban Missile Crisis brilliantly and seemed to learn from it. That's good.

FDR gave in to Hearst and condemned US participation in the World Court. He wouldn't come out against the anti-lynching bill. He was a shit to his wife and his girlfriend. But he was a great president. There you go.

[H2O Man]

41. What do you think of muckraking journalism?

If Fox News were to attack JFK's reputation, what "talking points" do you suspect they would use?

[Captain Hilts]

43. I'm calling 'foul' on that comment. You're smarter than that H2O man. nt

[H2O Man]

45. Ha!

The last resort!

[Captain Hilts]

46. Just because I don't paint JFK as all good as you do, you accuse me of being a Fox Fan????

You know better.

Jefferson and Madison could disagree, why can't you and I without getting personal?

Do you think JFK's flagrant philandering was not "reckless?" I condemned Bill Clinton for the same personal recklessness. Should a president be taking steroids and a mix of other medicines? I don't think so. JFK had Bobby and Sorensen cleaning up after him a lot. Bobby thought he was reckless.

JFK's not condemning McCarthy or McCarthyism isn't a big deal to you. We'll have to differ on that.

Look, I've read tons of correspondence of officials in that era. Some of the papers of Harold MacMillan. I've talked to people who are scholars about the Cuban Missile Crisis and who've sat next to Castro at dinner. I've read Russian memoirs of the Crisis in Russian. I've got four degrees - one a phd because I learned to look at things dispassionately. You bring a passion to JFK that I do not. That's okay. Just let me have my view.

It's possible to like the Beatles and the Stones. To like Bette and Joan. Really. It is.

I don't pull facts out of my ass. I've read the FOREIGN RELATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES and seen the stuff that suggests JFK was concerned about getting too involved in Vietnam. I give him credit for that. I give him credit for the way he handled the CMCrisis. I think he learned, too. What more do I have to say?

I'm the utility model, not the sporting model and I look for that when I examine policy. Folks who watched the Kennedy-Nixon debates on TV thought JFK won, those who listened on the radio thought Nixon won. Style counts. I know that.

If you want to start a thread comparing how JFK and Obama inspire people, I'll certainly agree with that. But that's not the topic here. Your bringing Dr. King into this mix suggests to me that he's also a great inspiration to you. Great. Me too. But he and JFK, as men, are not comparable to me because one was president and the other not. It's that simple. In the nuclear age it's an important dividing line. You don't think so. I do. I remember my dad being put on nuclear alert. It's scary. The hand on the nuclear trigger had better be a steady one. I feel better knowing Obama's hand is there. I like his approach to the presidency. I like his thoughtful nature.

But DON'T accuse me of being a Fox-watching moron because I disagree with you. I call foul on that.

[H2O Man]

48. No, I didn't.

Clearly, I asked you something completely different: what talking points do you think Fox News would use to attack JFK if they were to do so today? That is asking for your opinion, not saying that your opinion is based on a relationship between Fox and you. Your reaction suggests that you are uncomfortable with my question.

I suspect that you might know where I am headed with the use of the term "muckraker." It has a specific intent, which I will use in an OP to destroy one of the false talking points that you continue to use in your repeated slams on JFK's character. Perhaps you are knowingly posting a falsehood, perhaps it is because you are unaware of the truth. Either way, I will post the OP in an effort to provide DUers with accurate information in the form of a little history lesson on how muckrakers -- including Fox News today -- work.

[liberalmuse]

27. Booooo!!!!!!

Fuck. And I thought I was cynical. I'm sorry, but I thoroughly reject your perspective on JFK. I'll end it there before I go off on your ass.

[tanngrisnir3]

42. Hey, don't hold back. If you've got a case to make....

[Octafish]

47. Bullshit.

JFK kept the United States at peace, despite the best efforts of his Cabinet, Congress and the Pentagon.

After his death, LBJ did what the War Party wanted.

[Selatius]

2. Yeah, but JFK probably made the mistake of creating powerful enemies at home and abroad.

Regardless, he paid a heavy price at the end.

[Ardent15]

5. He wasn't afraid to make enemies because he was bold and assertive

[Tangerine LaBamba]

8. No, he wasn't

He was reckless.

He had no idea what he was up against with Khrushchev. In the end, Khrushchev pulled back in Cuba because they never had an intention of firing those missiles. They were just yanking JFK's chain because they knew he could.

He was always Joe's boy, and did his father's bidding. If you want to know about JFK, read about his father. There's a brand new Joe Kennedy biography that was just published last week. I've read part of it, and it's very good.

Even in the area of civil rights, as I noted elsewhere in this thread, JFK didn't want to get involved, for political reasons - and you could hear his father in this one - but his brother, bless his heart, insisted the Federal government take a stand against segregation.

[Ardent15]

11. He was not always "Joe's Boy": he wasn't an isolationist like Joe

[Tangerine LaBamba]

15. Hardly

He had no coherent foreign policy, but he was happy to send more "advisors" into Vietnam. Other than that, the world was stable. There was no need to be protectionist or isolationist. The concepts weren't applicable or relevant back then.

[Thothmes]

26. 16,000 "advisers" by the end of 1963

[Selatius]

12. I'm not saying it was a bad quality, but if you rock the boat, you pay a price for it.

The price could be high, higher than a lot of people could bear. People still remember where they were when they heard he got gunned down. Bold leadership was what America needed back then and now, but in those days, bold often bought you a one-way ticket to a coffin. His younger brother found that out, and so did Dr. King. It's almost as if they had to die for the current America that we know to be created instead of the America that could have been.

[Ardent15]

16. Well, being courageous and not giving in to fear is a big part of it

Those men you listed died standing up for what they believe in.

[kiva]

20. If the biography is so glowing,

it isn't "in-depth." We'll never know if JFK would have grown to be a great president--there are signs that he was learning from his mistakes--but buying into the Camelot myth doesn't make it so. His brother Robert would have made an excellent president; in the years after JFK's death Robert matured and became much more aware of the racial and economic gulfs in the US, and seemed prepared to address the problems.

[Captain Hilts]

22. Yes, both JFK and RFK should be credited with a learning curve. Their ties to McCarthy...

and JFK's refusal to condemn McCarthyism are upsetting. But Bobby seems to have seen the light and recently-released documents suggest that JFK was concerned about where Vietnam would lead.

[kiva]

32. Yes, their learning curve puts them above many of our

presidents. Most of what I've read says that JFK's death led to some fundamental changes in Bobby's character and beliefs. Certainly RFK's (IMO) genuine support for the Civil Rights movement and his work to end poverty grew a great deal after JFK's assassination, and I truly regret that we did not get to see if he would have lived up to that potential as a president.