Last night, as America shit and pissed freedom all over itself, our slaves in China...

[originalpckelly]

were hard at work making the TVs we all watched that speech on.

We sure do like to pat ourselves on the back as a country, and we always seem to forget that other part of the American dream: to do absolutely nothing while our slaves do it for us.

[Marrah_G]

1. ...........

[bluestateguy]

2. If you don't much like America, you are free to leave

You might want to try holding Communist China accountable first for abuses of workers before bashing your country.

[originalpckelly]

9. I'm so bad, that's why I unquestioningly accept the practice of modern slavery.

At the hands of my corporate masters.

[Javaman]

94. You are using a computer right? I bet that monitor you are looking at

right at this moment was assembled by slave labor.

or even better, you probably have used old computers and they now have been replaced. Those old computers are more than likely being torn apart in horrid conditions in either India or China which both have terrible human right records.

[oohoohbaby]

97. Well, in my case, I am at a library, so your point is moot

And is the idea to either be 100% anti-slave labor or just say to hell with it and don't give a rat's anus at all?

[Javaman]

126. point is not moot. you think you aren't equality responsible just because you

don't own a computer and use someone else's?

man, talk about passive aggressive.

I didn't kill that person, even though I shot the gun! someone else owns the gun!

sorry try again.

[Downtown Hound]

219. So, the fact that he's using that computer takes away his right to complain

about how it's made? Your solution would be to not use a computer at all, and thus not get the message out? I hate it when people say that just because you live in a society that gets its products from slave labor, you automatically give up your right to criticize that because you refuse to go live in a cave someplace.

[Javaman]

222. good lord, no, it does take away his right to his original point.

he's feeding into the same system he's complaining about. it makes him a hypocrite.

Man, talk about missing the entire point of the logic.

This thread has been one illogical emotional unfounded point after another.

[Downtown Hound]

225. We all feed into the system we complain about

There's no way around it unless we go live in the woods. We complain about global warming and the Iraq War yet we drive cars. Because if we don't, we can't get to work and we can't eat. There are things we can do, such as try and be more conscious consumers. But ultimately, we're all prisoners of the same system. And we're all hypocrites. Should we just shut up and do nothing then? I would say no.

[Javaman]

226. oh man...

the point you clod is that he starts a thread claiming all sorts of indignation and then goes on to contradict himself with his hypocrasy...

AND...

don't lump me in with your grand pronouncement that "everyone is like that". No, not everyone is. I'm perfectly aware of what I do in not helping things and I take steps to try and prevent them. And I also know that sometimes my efforts are failures.

But...

I don't go around making a total fool of myself by claiming one thing and doing another.

Defending the OP is pure insanity. He doesn't have a clear thought, he changes his concept to fit whom ever criticize him, he doesn't support any of his claims with links, first hand experience nor factual evidence.

making the blanket statement such he has, will only open one up to nothing but harsh criticism.

I don't agree with what he said, but I will defend his right to say it, BUT that doesn't also mean that I can't say what I want in tearing down his gigantic straw argument either.

man, so many to block just out of pure ignorance. It appears they are coming out of the wood work. And you are now going to join them.

man, oh man.

[Downtown Hound]

227. Meh, whatever. Go ahead and create your little blacklist

of people that disagree with you. Very mature. The OP never said we should all pitch our TV's and computers. He's saying that we should pay more attention to how our lifestyle is attained. Basically what you're saying is that he has no right to say that because he typed it on a computer made in China. Stupid, but go ahead and go to town with your ignore list now if you want.

[iamthebandfanman]

143. actually those old computers are probably still in the states

and being melted down for precious metals(as most computers have a wealth of copper and gold)

[Javaman]

183. LOLOL how many links do you want me to give you showing that most if not all

ewaste in the US goes to either China or India?

In fact National Geographic just did a huge story on it.

Man, just look up "US ewaste shipped over seas".

you will get a ton of hits.

most of the precious gold that you claim gets "melted down" is actually extracted via electrolysis. which requires large chemical vats to make it happen.

The licenses needed to start such an operation here in the US is extremely costly. That is why most of that type of low yield industry is third world countries.

How do I know this? I looked into doing it myself about 5 years ago. even if I did start it up, my overhead regarding waste disposal would kill my margin. This is why it's done in SE Asia. No EPA rules. That's why those area's are superfund sights in the waiting. There are whole areas in china and india that are so toxic that the surrounding towns near the plants have sky high respiratory disease and cancer cases.

[Romulox]

13. What is with the "love it or leave it" types here? DU is not a Lee Greenwood song. Thanks. nt

[Bill McBlueState]

136. "DU is not a Lee Greenwood song."

Nice. I'm remembering that one! :rofl:

[Greyhound]

33. If only that were so. n/t

[iamthebandfanman]

140. yikes, you sure youre at the right political forum? n/t

[Lucian]

187. Didn't the Republicans say the same damn thing to us for eight years...

and it pissed us off then?

It really bugs the hell out of me when someone says "love it or leave it". FYI, we have every right to bash our country. That's protected under the First Amendment.

You know what we can do if we don't love our country? Change it. Why leave it?

[Downtown Hound]

218. What a jack off jingoistic response. n/t

[hobbit709]

3. You posted this on a 100% American made and assembled computer, right?

[originalpckelly]

6. It's sort of hard to find a TV or computer without Chinese parts.

Someone else in this country has made the decision for me that I can't buy a TV not made by slaves. It doesn't mean the TV isn't made by slaves.

[PVnRT]

43. All I hear are excuses

I'm sure you can build your own from all American-made parts. Get to it.

[Romulox]

50. It's a dumb argument: if my PC was made in China, I lose the right to discuss human rights?

:eyes:

[Javaman]

95. No, you don't, but just be careful where you aim your sickle. nt

[originalpckelly]

99. Oh puh-lease!

Just because someone opposes corporate capitalism and the mindless drones it produces, doesn't make one a commie. In fact, it makes one a free market capitalist.

[Javaman]

124. LOL oh you have so much to learn. when you wake up from your

fantasy land, let me know.

[Romulox]

116. WTF is happening to DU where "love it or leave it" and "commie" are acceptable insults?

:shrug:

[originalpckelly]

121. Commie, commie, commie, commie chameleon!

You come and go, you come and go...

So couldn't help myself.

[KG]

137. when emoters lack a cogent arguement.

[slutticus]

167. "Designed in California, assembled in China" 50/50

[agent46]

4. ...........

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
--TS Eliot

[ThomWV]

5. I believe the TVs come from Mexico, its all the other shit that comes from China

Just a minor correction really - otherwise you make a good point.

[originalpckelly]

8. My TV is made in China.

Many TV's are. Even when they were still tubes they did this. China dumped a whole bunch of cheapo sets into the market and nuked what remained of local production. The government, not the people, of China.

[Raskolnik]

62. Who forced you to buy a TV made in China?

It seems that if you really did object to manufacturing conditions in China, you could have spent a few extra bucks to buy a Japanese model.

[iamthebandfanman]

145. ummm

i highly doubt japanese telvisions have no chinese parts or labor.

[Raskolnik]

155. Let's accept that as true for the moment - who forced OPCK to buy a television

that wasn't manufactured with the least amount of Chinese labor/parts as possible?

[SOS]

100. A new option exists

The Olevia made by Syntax-Billian started US production in 2006:

http://techdirt.com/articles/20061023/234032.shtml

[a la izquierda]

178. That's what I own...and it's a stellar unit.

[spoony]

220. Wow, thanks for the info n/t

[Sherman A1]

7. Ah........

oooooookay...... :shrug:

[SammyWinstonJack]

10. Americans don't want to make TVs

:sarcasm:

[marmar]

11. Actually, I think Americans would be glad to make their own TVs these days.....

.... with the soaring unemployment rate and all.

[originalpckelly]

16. Ah yes, but only if we could buy them for really cheap prices.

Slavery has this nice little side effect in that it doesn't cost much to produce goods that way. Oh yeah, they may be paid a shitty pittance, but the people making our TVs are not free.

[Deja Q]

212. Offshoring was done in the name of cost savings to the customer.

Back in 1980, people didn't think either.

Prices haven't gone down either.

At least quality has*. Two out of three ain't bad. :shrug:



* depending on product; I will endeavor not to post blind generalizations.

[leftofthedial]

12. plenty of "slaves" watched it here too.

[originalpckelly]

14. Yes, we did, but the case for Chinese employment being slavery is much better...

as it is not a free country.

[Raskolnik]

58. There are undeniably conditions similar to indentured servitude in some Chinese factories,

but referring to the majority of Chinese workers as "slaves" is both ignorant and insulting to people who have endured actual slavery.

[originalpckelly]

162. It's easy to say that if you didn't lose your child to baby milk powder.

Or you knew someone who went to jail, but was shot and killed and gutted for his organs, so that Americans and other westerners could use them.

At least the slaves were property, they didn't kill them and harvest their organs.

[Raskolnik]

165. The melamine taint in Chinese goods has nothing to do with "slavery." It resulted from corruption

coupled with lax inspection procedures, both in China and the U.S.

And the Chinese prison system is abominable, and reforms are desperately needed. Who is arguing that isn't the case?

[cabluedem]

221. Yeah, an 8 dollar an hour job with no benefits isnt much better, is it? nt

[Romulox]

15. "Free trade" ("neoliberalism") is a rush to the bottom. And it's our national religion. nt

[originalpckelly]

17. I know, I love how they want "free trade" but always deal with totalitarian regimes to get it.

[Romulox]

19. Not to mention TRILLIONS in taxpayer bailouts. nt

[whoneedstickets]

18. Yeah those Chinese factory workers would be way better off...

..eking out a subsistence living in some disease-infested rice paddy someplace. That explains why they have to be dragged from the country side to take these jobs that pay 10X what the average laborer earns in the traditional economy.

[originalpckelly]

21. Oh yes, as we all know factories in America were all lovely when the same thing happened.

And that whole part of their government being an oligarchy where no one can search for democracy on the internet is just...what?

[whoneedstickets]

22. Of course they were ugly...

..same in Britain during the enclosures. Industrialization is messy, unjust, dirty...

But the alternative is subsistence agriculture unless you've somehow identified some socialist Utopian development model that has escaped rest of the world which has long been searching for something.

Sorry to say it but MY quality of life (health, life expectancy, leisure time) is UNDENIABLY superior to that of my grandparents (some of whom grew up in subsistence or crop farming environments). None of my relative that I know farm today. Evidence suggest the same is true for many, many Chinese. This has come at some cost (to the US in job, to the environment etc.) The market economic system is far from perfect. But it is better than tilling fields from sun-up to sun-set.

[originalpckelly]

23. I know, mindlessly plowing a field for 12 hours is so much worse...

than mindlessly assembling TV's for 12 hours.

[whoneedstickets]

31. The workers are voting with their feet..

..somehow you don't get that. Their standard of living is higher. Would it be great if they could collectively bargain in a union? if they had democratic government? Environmental protection? Of course!

[originalpckelly]

32. House slaves were still slaves.

The quality of life was better, but they were slaves.

[whoneedstickets]

35. Well you just go ahead and drop off the grid...

..live in your hovel, wear hemp and enjoy your 'freedom'. While you're busting your ass making soap from lard and ashes and carting wood to heat your wash-water, I'll enjoy my modern life of slavery.

[originalpckelly]

36. Wow! So I'm a hippie because I don't believe in slavery?

I'm surprised you didn't mention taking no baths and letting my hair grow long.

[whoneedstickets]

38. Ok, what then is your alternative..spell it out...

enough with the sloganeering. How does your 'free' society and economy work?

[originalpckelly]

42. There would be no corporations.

If people want to create automated production facilities, they would have to be free of human beings, save for repairs.

People would be free to choose their work, not the lesser of two evils.

One country would not exploit the other.

There would be little global trade, save for mineral resources particular to one region or another, and then it would be fairly priced.

[NeedleCast]

45. another "progressive" for a return to the stone age

[originalpckelly]

51. Really, so letting the almost completely automatic manufacturing process...

to become completely automatic is a bad thing/stone age thing?

If you own the machines, you have the right to exploit them how you choose, so long as they are not capable of consciousness and do not know they are slaves.

I think my idea is quite the opposite. It's progressive, allowing technology to become completely automatic. Can you imagine the competition this would create?

[NeedleCast]

54. No, taking jobs away from people and the problems that causes

is a return to the stone age and an economical disaster as is your apparent desire to have no one making anything for anyone else. Hell, even under a barter system, you get an exchange of goods and services. So at what point does it become "slavery?" At what point does exchaning money you've earned for a product someone else has created become a master-slave relationship?

So what are all the people you're advocating replacing with machines going to do for work? You may have noticed - I think there's been a bit of media attention dedicated to it recently - that there's this teeny-tiny global recession going on...and you're advocating LESS jobs? Same for the millions of jobs created by global trade and shipping.

This bizzare idea you have that the world will be better off with all of us lounging around letting "the machines" do all the work is pretty much the opposite of a good idea. You don't go out of your way to reduce jobs during a recession! This is like Republicans arguing that we need more tax cuts while while the federal government spends more money.

[originalpckelly]

64. You are arguing against progress while claiming to argue for it.

Why not pick crops by hand instead of using equipment? Doesn't that take jobs away from people?

Why use engine powered cranes, you could always pay people to pull the crap up via a pulley crane?

[NeedleCast]

75. This entire sub-thread has been you railing against "hard" jobs

I'm not saying we can't exploit technology to help do jobs, but you seem to be advocating a total reduction of any manufactoring or "hard" job in the name of "people shouldn't have to do jobs that suck." At least that's what it sounds like to me. There's got to be some happy medium between picking crops by hand and an "I, Robot" style existence where we all sit on our couches while I Tek-Butler 2025 bangs out TVs and answers the door.

As has been pointed out many times in this thread, the Chinese seem to be flocking to these "slave" jobs because they give those Chinese workers a noticable benefit. Not like the Chinese government is running around dragging these folks out of their cushy sustinance-living farming communities and shackling them inside factories. This is basically how every nation in the world has gone through industrialization, to one extent or another. Yeah, sometimes it sucks in it's infancy, but the alternative is a whole lot suckier.

You keep using the word "slave" to identify these workers but the trade for an improved quality of life seems to be soemthing that they're willing to accept.

[originalpckelly]

77. If you were offered one shitty choice or the other less shitty, but still shitty choice...

what would you do?

[originalpckelly]

78. And automatic manufacturing has already occured...

robots already do most of the heavy lifting in factories, people are usually there for complex manipulation tasks and quality control.

[NeedleCast]

85. Yeah, and that's worked SOOOOO well for Detroit and the Industrial North

I'm sure they love their giant unemployment rate and the fact that Detroit was just voted "Most Miserable City.' I'm sure that as Detroit's unemployment creeps into the mid double-digits that all those former factory workers are just sitting around on their couches watching their Chinese made TVs as they doze in and out of blissful dreams of the fact that their "hard" job is now being done by a robot. Between outsourcing and human replacement, I bet we can get that unemployment rate up to 20 or even 30 percent if we really try.

And you've got your little buddy here in this sub-thread accusing ME of being the corpratist! That's truly ironic as you sit there and essentially tell us you want to do EXACTLY what the corporate bosses want to do...cut costs by replacing people with machines. More profit for them, less jobs for middle America! Hooray!

Its true, I'm a total schill for putting people back to work and reducing unemployment. I know, I know...it flies in the face of progressive thought. Jobs. Fair labor practices. Fair wages. Why advocate for any of that when we can just make a robot to do it? That's crazy NeedleCast for you.

[originalpckelly]

89. Or maybe they could get out and walk somewhere? Or go to a park...

go fishing with their kids...

God forbid we don't work most of our productive years for some rich corporate master.

[NeedleCast]

92. Yes! Why Not!

Who needs to eat! Maybe they can all just fish the great lakes in their newfound spare time! I really think you've hit on something here.

If we can just figure out a way to teach people that unemployment is an opportunity! An opportunity to spend a few precious moments with your children before you starve to death (or freeze). Maybe it wont happen. Maybe they can convince the grocery store and the electric company to join the utopia! I'm sure the utility companies will take a compassionate stance on this. Can't pay your heating bill? Well, that's fine, we'll just give it away! We can just explain the situation to Detroit Electric and Heating. Listen, a robot has my job now and I can't pay my bills, I'm going to the park with my kids. You're cool with that right? Great!

As we wander on down that road from bad idea to totally ludacris...

[originalpckelly]

93. Well, they could be outside working a field if we listen to you.

[NeedleCast]

104. and what's wrong with that?

Please give me some list of jobs that are okay for humans to do, as you seem to have this whole thing figured out. From what I've gathered so far, people should not want to do jobs that involve any level of manual labor. Is that about the gist of it?

People who work in agricultural jobs and manufactoring jobs must all hate those jobs because you have this elitist opinion that those jobs are somehow sub-human. One of my grandfathers was (and still is) a Rancher. I've worked on his ranch as a teen. I've worked with ranch hands and people who do manual labor. This may come as a total mind blow to you, but a lot of them like what they do. My grandfather on my fathers side was a concrete worker and then concerte business owner. He worked labor intensive jobs for near 50 years and I never heard him complain once. I did hear him comment on many occasions that it was a good, honest job.

In your utopia where no one has to do a "hard" job, what other jobs will be sub-human? I mean look, I've worked Level One IT help desk in the past and I can't imagine a job that sucks worse. Maybe the people at the airport who have to deal with lost luggage. That job can't be any fun. What about electronics technicians? I mean, those jobs usually pay pretty well but they do involve manual labor.

What about people who work manufactoring the robots? I guess the end game there would be to make robots that make robots and thus "escape" the manufactoring arena?

Last question...what do you propose to do for the millios (billions globally) that you're putting out of work? Unfortunalty "go to the park with their kids" isn't really a viable alternative in a world where things cost money.

[originalpckelly]

110. This too:

"I mean look, I've worked Level One IT help desk in the past and I can't imagine a job that sucks worse."

Why did that job suck? Certainly, if you didn't have to do repetitive manual labor in a field or a factory, being a help desk worker is a lot better, right?

But it sucked? Why?

[NeedleCast]

118. It sucked because I had to deal with people who were pissed off all day

PLEASE believe that if I had a choice between being a ranch hand or going back to Level One IT help desk I'd pick ranch hand every day of the week and twice on Sunday. I would trade an air conditioned cubical with snack and soda machines to go work out in the hot-ass Texas sun. Because herding cattle beats the SHIT out of dealing with argirvated humans any day of the week. Cattle don't scream at me. Cattle don't threat to get me fired if I didn't wave my magic IT wand and un-fuck the situation they created by being stupid. Bailing hay, moving 50 pound bags of feed, fixing a tractor...hell, some days I miss that stuff. In fact, on my vacations it's not terribly unlikely you'll find me doing just that sort of thing at my grandfather's ranch because - and I know this is shocking to you - some of us don't find manual labor to be the hell you make it out to be.

You are STILL confusing "jobs that are hard" with "jobs that no one wants to do."

Mind blow, I know...some people actuall even PREFER manual labor jobs to white collar IT jobs! Take two of my best friends back home. One has a masters degree in History. One has a BS degree in the IT field. Both of them are fire-fighters. Why? Because they like being fire fighters! A job where they put themselves at a great deal of personal risk, which is hard, which requires them to often work in a very hostile environment (read: blazing inferno).

And yet, both of them have CHOSEN to be fire fighters instead of being white collar workers!

The sooner you realize that not everyone wants to be an architect, the sooner you're going to realize why what you're proposing is a really bad idea.

[originalpckelly]

128. " And yet, both of them have CHOSEN to be fire fighters instead of being white collar workers!"

I don't think everyone working in a Chinese factory had a free choice, that's my gripe, in part.

If someone else chooses what choices you have, you have lost choices. I sincerely doubt the people stuck in Chinese factories would choose to be there.

There are people who manually create textiles, because they like doing it. It's harder, but they're compensated more. It is also a niche, because most people will choose to do something else and don't want to have to pay a premium for hand woven cloth.

However, this free market choice has been stolen away from these workers. Sure, there may be some people who really dig working in factories, and they can do that if they want to, but most people don't work in factories for a reason.

[NeedleCast]

133. Probably not everyone

You're probably right about that, some of them may not have a choice. Then again, if it's the choice between

A) Take a job I don't like which is hard and labor intensive

or

B) Die.

or even

A) Take a job that I don't like which is hard and labor intensive

or

B) Continued working an even worse job

I think a huge majority of people are going to go with A.

Kelly, everyone gets a choice. Sometimes none of the options are good ones. I had to make a choice between things that sucked this week. Chose to spend 1600 dollars on car repairs or not drive. I don't like either of those options. The differece between you and I seems to be the understanding that in a world steeped in "reality" that sometimes situations arise where you don't get a good option on the multiple-choice list. You have, I'm sure, heard the phrase "lesser of two evils?" Sometimes that's the situation one finds themselves in.

Like I said, if you can find a way to keep people working and eliminate hard jobs, I'll be the first one to jump on the PCkelly bandwagon. Until then, we'll have to go on dealing with reality. But further, you seem to have no understanding of the history of industrialization. You don't go from being a Chinese sustinance agricultural worker to Systems Administrator (well, not very often at least).

[originalpckelly]

151. Yes, lesser of two evils. Precisely.

And why are there two evils?

It's not like we have anything to do with that.

What happens if these Chinese decide to get "upptity" and choose their own destiny? You think their government will let that happen?

[NeedleCast]

153. Again, you cotinue to dismiss reality

I'm sort of losing you here. What if these Chinese decide to get uppity? You think "their government" is capable of stopping 1.1 billion people? You think the US government is capable of stopping 300 million of us if we really chose to get "uppity", as it were?

The thing is though, China is booming right now. The Chinese people don't have a real good reason to "get uppity" as long as their quality of life continues to improve...because even in China, 1.1 billion people understand that they can't ALL be a systems administrator.

So, for the last time in this thread, when you've created a local utopia where no one has to make any choices that might fall into the category of bad or undesirable, I'll jump on board with you. Until then, the vast majority of us will continue to deal with reality in the best way we can.

[originalpckelly]

160. OMG! You've got it!

Congratulations, you've graduated to a new level. No, their government can't stop all of them, but it can stop some of them. More importantly, it has brainwashed that nation into thinking 1.1 billion can't overthrow a couple thousand. The same thing is true here. :-)

I'm really glad you seem to be getting this now.

Now do you think their government will go down without a fight? No, and Tienanmen Square shows that (though those weren't factory workers, more intellectual types). That's why ideas are so powerful. If one changes the minds of a vast majority, without taking physical actions first, the threat isn't perceived as great. It's the difference between guerrilla warfare and fighting with lines of soldiers on a battlefield. It's harder to take down each and every person sitting at a computer in decentralized locations. On the other hand, you can mow people down with bullets from machines guns/bomb them if they are centralized at a protest.

Right now in China there is a petition circulating with people openly listing their names on it, demanding democracy. So far the government hasn't done anything overt. Though, the people are probably being spied on to the nines.

They do have a reason to get sick of shit and start a revolution: baby milk powder that killed thousands of Chinese kids. That's one the main complaints behind the most recent attempt to start a revolution.

It's a false boom, fueled by our false boom. Have you read the stories about the excess office space? They don't have enough businesses to fill it all up.

[NeedleCast]

172. So you're saying that if we overthrow our corporate overlords

there wont have to be any people doing manufactoring, agricultural or other "sucky" jobs?

We're kinda jumping around now. We started at replacing manufactoring jobs with robots and why you think that's a good idea and from there sort of ran around to your invisioned utopia where no one wants (or even desires) jobs that are sucky to a global revolt against corporations. A revolution you appear to think is going to take place on...the internet. Okay.

You appear to be "anti-corporation" without knowing the first thing about corporations other than you think they're bad.

You also appear to not know the first damn thing about technology as it would be FAR easier for a nation like China to cut off the ability for people to communicate via computer than it would be to kill a bunch of them. Kill a few major internet backbones and that it. That's the end of your vast guerrilla movement. And it's very, very simple and cost effective to do...because very, very few people have the ability (espcially in China) to set up alternet networking.

As Javaman pointed out, that's the problem with you keyboard commandos. You have this bizzare idea that the internet isn't run and produced by the very corporations you're talking about taking down in your mind changing guerrilla warfare. It takes the Chinese government calling up their version of Sprint and saying "Shut it down or we bomb you first" and that's the end of your internet revolution.

It's cute that you think Sprint and Verizon are going to let you plot their downfall via a service they provide you with...

[originalpckelly]

192. No, the internet is a completely unintended consequence.

Their greediness will be their undoing, just as it was their making. Like so many who've come before them, the people who control this country will fall on the sword that made their empire.

[NeedleCast]

200. That doesn't make any sense

but then, I've stopped caring, so it doesn't really matter.

[originalpckelly]

204. In an attempt to create yet another worthless thing people must have...

they've created the best system for debating and getting uppity in the history of the world.

[Raskolnik]

207. Boy, it sounds like "they" kind of suck, doesn't it?

Now if we can just figure out who "they" are, we'll be in business.

[Romulox]

52. Another "progressive" corporatist... nt

[NeedleCast]

57. Yeah, it's crazy

that I think we might want to, you know, keep people working instead of "replacing them with machines" as the OP has suggested. We wouldn't want anyone to have to handle the agony of having a job in manufactoring. Better to just lay off all those workers. Better to have no job than a hard job.

[Romulox]

60. Either oppressive conditions or else no work at all is the worst strawman argument I've heard on DU

(and strawman arguments are popular here!)

[NeedleCast]

63. SOrt of like calling me a "corpratist"

because I don't think replacing people with machines is a good idea...

[originalpckelly]

68. Baloney, you didn't ask me what I wanted to do...

until a few replies in, before then you couldn't have arguing against what I proposed, because I hadn't proposed it. And you still haven't answered me, why not pay people to pick crops by hand? Wouldn't that create jobs?

[NeedleCast]

86. Yes, it would

At this point, I'd be in total favor of it. It's not going to happen though, at least not to any further extent that it already does, as there are still some agricultural jobs that are labor intensive.

And you still haven't answered my question: How does reducing jobs during a recession help anyone?

[originalpckelly]

87. So you think manual field labor is what we should do?

You're insane. On the one hand, you think people being tied to a factory is so much better than being tied to a field, but then in another response you advocate field labor.

Reducing jobs, or making society more efficient? If society is more efficient, and we eliminate the systems which usually funnel those productivity increases to our corporate masters, we might actually *gasp* benefit from progress. I'm so sorry that I'm a progressive. God forbid we should want to reduce work weeks/hours per day worked. That might let us spend time with our families and friends and have a life, save for two days a week!

:wow:

[NeedleCast]

91. You keep reducing jobs to what people want to do

That's not how the world works. Surely you understand this? If I had a choice between not working ANY job and working, I'd pick not working. That, unfortunately, is not how it goes. You act like jobs that require labor are the worst possible thing a human can do. I can't imagine how you could possibly be more of an elitist ass. Shit, I met people in Afghanistan who's job it was to catch fucking rats in the sewers. But you know what, they would much rather have a job catching and killing rats in a pool of human excrement than NOT HAVE A JOB!! It's a job that totally, absolutely sucks...and you know what, the number of times I have met a person who would rather have no job than a job that sucks is real, real low.

You stick to your fantasy world though, where we all get to be architects and interior designers. The one where we've got eight billion white collar jobs waiting for people to step into them. Because that's a feasible situation.

[originalpckelly]

102. You seem to forget, there are people in this world for whom that is true.

They get to choose whether or not they work, or what profession they work in. They're the owners of this system, and they profit off of us.

They do that, because they have other people to do that for them. I suggest we do that, but replace the people in with machines.

[Javaman]

105. So, here's a suggestion, rather than bitching and complaining about it..

go out and do something to prevent it.

Or are you one of those sullen nihilists that just want to complain about how everything sucks and not do anything about it because the corporate world is completely against you?

but that would be the hard part now, wouldn't it? You know, volunteer to help a cause instead of just complaining.

so much wasted energy. so much time on their hands.

[originalpckelly]

111. I'm doing something about it with every keystroke.

:-)

The truth is that we always have the power to change, it's just our mindset that needs to be changed.

[Javaman]

123. LOL yet another member of the 101st keyboard brigade.

rather than protest and go actually talk/help to people, you hide behind your screen.

right. have fun with that. LOL

man, such an easy target.

[originalpckelly]

129. I've been to protests, and they don't do shit.

Very few people seem to take protesters seriously anymore. Those in power in this country have managed to write-off protesting in the minds of people.

Woohoo, we'll go beat a drum and shout and hope that will change the world. I think rational debate and actually moving the public discourse forward is more valuable than merely symbolic demonstrations.

[Javaman]

130. LOL you are a member of the angst brigade I see.

so you didn't answer my question about actually volunteering to help people. I never said anything about protesting, you said that. LOL Your answer is probably, no, you haven't volunteered, because that means you would have to interact with people who actually have problems and would blow your theory of ignorance away.

Until you actually deal with people on a one to one basis and understand their problems from their prospective, you haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. None at all.

Another example of the ugly american who knows what's best for everyone. LOL Or haven't read that book? Probably not.

Sorry try again. you are prone to failing.

[NeedleCast]

139. Come on Javaman, get with the new program

If we all just think about it REALLY HARD, we can change reality. No action neccessary.

I bet if we had given MLK a personal computer with wi-fi and access to the internet we wouldn't have had had to wait around for a civil rights movement. MLK could have just posted it on a message board and it would have become reality.

I have a dream. A wonderful dream where I post some shit on a message board and the rest of you go make it happen. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a world where robots do all the hard jobs and not be judge by the color of their skin but by the messages they post anonymously on the internet. I have a dream that one day every valley will be exalt and full of robots instead of humans doing agricultural jobs because being sweaty is teh lose. Where every hill and moutian shall be made low (by robots) for easier transportation on trains run and made by robots.

[Javaman]

175. Having a dream based upon attainable goals is one thing...

basing a dream on a robot infused society were we become slaves to technology is the stuff made of lunatic asylums.

have a good one. I'm going to block you now, not because you are rude but frankly, I think you are certifiable.

[cliffordu]

144. You are doing NOTHING with every keystroke. Nada. Zip. Nothing.

Except maybe beating off.

[NeedleCast]

107. and you seem hell bent on maximizing their profits by putting people out of jobs

and replacing them which a mechanized labor force. You understand this, yes? That your desire here is a 100% match with what the corporate elite want. It's a lot more expensive to pay a few humans to do a job one robot can do, which is why the corporate elite want as much mechanization and as little people as possible working in their factories. Luckily we have labor unions that are (usually) fighting to keep PEOPLE working.

[originalpckelly]

112. If we didn't have corporations, what would the economy look like?

You keep thinking in the context of a corporate controlled economy.

[NeedleCast]

122. That's true

because to a large extent, that's the reality we live in. So while I'm all for a shift away from a corporate economy, you need to understand that an economy without corporations probably means strong growth in these job fields you seem to find detstible. A reduction in corporte economy probably means a lot more agricultural jobs and labor intensive jobs. Do you understand this?

You are playing games with reality. That might be fun in an ivory tower where we don't have to worry about the actual results of deep thoughts on why working in a facotry sucks and is sub-human (even if it isn't to a lot of people). That's not reality though. Reality is that in a strong recession, people need more jobs, not less jobs. Reality is that not every gets to be a lawyer or dentist because you only need so many lawyers and dentists in a society. Reality is that not everyone WANTS to work in this white collar commune you've invented.

[Javaman]

186. One last thing, once again you completely miss the mark.

god, the ignorance is strong in this one.

do you know why corporations have so much power? because the law looks upon them as individuals.

If corporations were looked upon as businesses, the land scape we currently live in would be colossally different.

corporations unto themselves are not evil, it's the boards that make them so. Man oh man. so much ignorance.

[Romulox]

70. It was tit for tat. nt

[originalpckelly]

67. Fairly, I did advocate for the elimination of manufacturing jobs...

but only to replace them with designer jobs and research jobs. I'd rather have Americans telling machines what to make rather than people.

People should not be forced into becoming an inhuman part inside of a factory.

[NeedleCast]

81. Are you intending to insult the billions of people worldwide who have manufacturing jobs

or just too obtuse to know you're doing it?

Hey, maybe I'm wrong though. Any people who work in factories want to chime in here? Do you feel you are an inhuman cog in a machine? Is your job so bad that you'd rather be replaced by a machine?

Kelly, do you really think it's possible or even likely that we're going to trade manufacturing jobs for design/research and other white collar jobs on a one-to-one scale?

[Javaman]

108. I call the kelly types nihilist elitists.

they piss and moan over how miserable the world is but refuse to do anything about it because they believe that same world is against them.

Oh and they also believe that they are way ahead of their times.

Frankly, the iRobot scenario he proposes scares the crap out of me.

[whoneedstickets]

66. Ok, i've stopped laughing long enough to ask...

..where would the robots come from?

[originalpckelly]

71. You make it sound like robots are way out futuristic things, they are not:

That's a 1996 picture. NeXT computers original factory, back in the 80s, was totally automated, by the way. I'm assuming the technology is good enough two decades later to try full automation again.

This is something so clearly within our reach as a nation.

And you tell a machine to build the parts for another machine.

[whoneedstickets]

73. Sure! but WHERE do THEY come from?

Robots don't just spring out of the ground? Where do they come from?

I mean in the great chain of creation moving backwards..

Robot --> Robot --> Robot --> ?

[originalpckelly]

74. We build one machine, building one thing can be very rewarding.

But building the same thing over and over again in an optimized/mind-numbing process is like becoming a robot.

[whoneedstickets]

79. WAIT! Work can be rewarding!? I thought it was slavery?

Isn't your whole insensible 'model' predicated on human labor. One machine cannot build all future machines. Robots would have to be designed, ore mined and refined (or ore-mining robots built). At some point human effort to bring about this system would be required.

Either your theory is utter nonsense or it is pure hypocrisy since human labor (slavery) would at some point be required.

Alternatively, you might admit that all work is NOT slavery (which you seem to have) and then conclude that some work is more desirable than others and then...

You conclude that working in a factory beats tending rice fields.

[Javaman]

117. see, he wants a world of self replicating machines.

we build the first one, and away we go!!! LOL

The problem is this with that moronic theory, other than making exact copies of itself, how does the robot know what type of robot to produce for demand? It doesn't that's were humans come in.

I think kelly wishes for a world like in the movie Wall-E where we humans become fat tubs of lard skating around sleds drinking giant slurpies. LOL While our every whim is taken care of by a robot of one sort of another.

The problem with Kelly's concept is so laughable.

So suppose we create such a master machine that makes all the robots we need to do everything we need. Two things arise, one we need an endless amount of materials to supply this machine so it would keep producing. Because, if it thinks on it's own and knows what robots to make, then it will demand material from us to make those robots. The second is, if it keeps demanding materials, that would mean it is self aware and that means, we become its slave to keep it going.

so many sci-fi writers have postulated on just this scenario hundreds of times and it always ends up with the same conclusion. We become its slave. Or aka slave to technology.

[NeedleCast]

125. Wall-E

The very first thing that came into my mind (in addition to being a funny little movie). Kelly won't be happy until we're all floating around as obese blobs in our hover-loungers.

(I'll be honest though, a hover-lounger would f'ing rock...)

[Javaman]

127. Yeah, actually, it kinda would. LOL nt

[cliffordu]

142. rofl....

Fuck me that's funny.

:rofl:

[Raskolnik]

53. Spoken like someone who has no idea what it is like to plow a field for 12 hours

Conditions for workers in China's factories should improve, and, as a matter of fact, are improving. The fact that tens of millions of Chinese peasants choose to pack up and move hundreds of miles away to work in these factories and send home money to their families should tell you something about the conditions in their villages, however.

I suggest you read some of the reporting from China James Fallows did for The Atlantic last year.

[wickerwoman]

134. It is when you get paid a living wage for the factory work

but not the farm work. Also when your children can go to city schools rather than rural one-room school houses that can barely afford chalk.

It's almost impossible for people from rural areas of China to get residence permits in the cities because if the restrictions were lifted everyone would be moving to Guangdong looking for factory work. I have to assume that if 99% of rational people prefer factory work to farm work that there has to be something to it.

[NeedleCast]

152. and that's a hell of a point

Working in a factory might suck, but passing on better opportunities for your children is a value that most parents I know have.

[treestar]

25. they are supposed to live like that so that more Americans can

toil in factories. :sarcasm:

[originalpckelly]

28. No human being should be molded into a part in someone else's machine.

[pampango]

80. Actually Chinese workers make 25 times what they made in 1978.

Chinese wages are 25 times higher now than they were back in 1978 before the rise of the dreaded factories there. (615 yuan a month in 1978; 16,024 in 2004) In 1978 China was a predominantly agrarian economy with little or no international trade. Of course that meant that they had little economic effect on our lifestyle in the US. I wonder if many wouldn't be happy if Mao could somehow be brought back to life, so that he could force China to revert to the "agrarian bliss" of the 1970's and leave us alone.

http://www.allcountries.org/china_statistics/5_21_average_wage_of_staff_and.html

The UN has reported that the 20-year period from 1985-2005 saw a greater reduction in world poverty than in any 2-year period in history due largely to economic progress in China. Since China is no longer the destitute Third World country it was in 1978, I believe it is time to renegotiate the terms of trade between it and the rest of the world. Favorable trade terms for the Third World is fine, as long as it benefits really poor countries like Zambia, Indonesia, or Jordan as examples. But once a country has made significant progress, terms of trade should be modified to reflect this.

[iamthebandfanman]

146. hmm life of poverty or

life of blindness from the excessive FORCED use of a magnifying glass...


i think ill take poverty.



besides, the majority of chinese DO live in those horrible conditions.

either way, they are all slaves to their facsist masters.

[lame54]

20. Go Walmart

[anonymous171]

24. Wow. You really killed my freedom buzz. nt

[originalpckelly]

26. I'm sorry about that.

Tends to happen when you start talking about reality.

[Cid_B]

27. Team America comes to mind...

Chris: Let's get one thing straight, actor. I don't trust you. And if you betray us, I'll rip your fucking balls off and stuff them up your ass so that the next time you shit, you'll shit all over your balls, got it?
Gary Johnston: What's your problem with me?
Chris: Yeah, you wanna go?
Joe: Guys, guys, guys! Don't you see this is just what the terrorists want us to do? The war is out there, man! Out there! Now, pull it together!
___________________________

There's a longer one that some of you may know but even I can't bring myself to post it.

[MellowDem]

29. "Our" slaves???

Do you know that the standard of living in China is the highest it has ever been? That industrialization has pulled most up the economic ladder? Oh, sure, they don't live like we do yet. And yes, they are going through the pains of industrialization and democracy that every country goes through. But it's not America's fault. Would you rather have them living on Chairman Mao's state run farms, where, heaven forbid there is flood or drought, tens of millions die due to fuedal technology and no infrastructure? God you are self-rightous.

[anonymous171]

30. lol Neoliberalism. nt

[MellowDem]

41. LOL ignoramous. nt

[NeedleCast]

34. Yeah...

Some people just gotta ice skate uphill.

[kwassa]

39. LOL

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Slaves -

you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[marketcrazy1]

48. workers rights and working conditions in china suck

do a quick google search for Chinese factory workers and Chinese factory workers housing and read some of what comes up....... or you can hide your head in the sand and continue to believe that these workers have gained a "higher standard of living" working in the factories that make the shit we buy from "American" companies. buying "made in America" is not easy but it can be done. I read a story last year about a family that decided to buy items made in America ONLY for one year, the goal was to see if it was even possible ( it was ) and if it would cost more ( it did, something like 5 percent more ) the massive out sourcing of our jobs to china has hurt us but it will end up hurting them more. they have massively overbuilt their industrial capacity and with this economic collapse are seeing much of that capacity idled. 20 million + factory workers have returned ( or are trying ) to the farm but a severe drought is making that a problem. china has been dependent on U.S. consumers to support much of their manufacturing capacity and are only now beginning to shift their focus to their Asian neighbors as Americans cut back. the problem with this is, although their may be a market there, prices for their goods will have to fall to support it wich means lower or no profits wich means government support and all the inherent problems that can bring. china has a problem and it is us!! they wished to increase industrialization, they wished to grow their middle class and now they need to find a way to support both........ message to china: be careful what you wish for, you may get it!...............

[RaleighNCDUer]

96. Yes, those are severe, devastating problems for both us and China

but they are not slavery.

Words have meaning. Slavery refers to very specific circumstances of forced servitude (the chinese workers are not forced to work in factories, they prefer to work in factories for the higher standard of living and freedom it gives them), and lack of compensation (their pay is better than the average in China, no matter how deplorable the working conditions).

If anything, the prevailing structure in the US is more akin to slavery, where a person is not shackled to his job, but will lose his health insurance if he leaves it - if that is not a coercive practice I don't know what is. Anybody can leave his job for any or no reason, but with the safety net shredded he risks being homeless, uninsured, and unemployable if he does so. Thus the term, 'wage slave'.

Now, there ARE instances of real slavery involved in feeding US consumerism, both overseas and at home - the US prison system is possibly the largest employer of slave labor in the world today. But we don't need to confuse crappy Asian factories with slavery - for the most part, workers are anxiously trying to get those jobs.

[pampango]

223. Thank you. Calling people "slaves" when they are not, cheapens the word and demeans

those who have been and still are actual slaves. :loveya:

[Juche]

40. Meh

For one thing, alot of those Chinese want those job. Factory work is a step up from farming. Having said that, I am a supporter of fair trade, we should only trade with countries that respect human rights, labor rights and environmental rights.

Not only that but there have been alot of attempts at reform in China in the last 10 years for labor and the environment. So the Chinese are fighting to improve their lot, and we should do what we can to help them. But Chinese people would probably bristle at being called your slaves.

[SammyWinstonJack]

I suspect that a lot of Americans would like those jobs, also. But the PTB

outsourced them for bottom line profits. We got screwed. Meh. :shrug:

[PVnRT]

44. It's amazing, the FAIL in this thread

Manufacturing has been outsourced to China because:

1) China has embarked upon a long history of union-busting and worker repression, despite the hilarious use of "communist" to describe themselves, ever since Deng took over in the 1970's.

2) American companies, looking to cut costs on worker and environmental regulations, export work there to save money. Other companies, wanting to stay in the U.S., either have to follow suit to compete, fill a niche market, or close completely.

Pretending that this is anything other than a cynical symbiotic relationship between two power structures intent on enriching themselves at the cost of their citizens/workers is stupid.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. We buy their shit. They loan the proceeds to us so that we can buy more of their shit.

"Slavery"? Hardly.

[originalpckelly]

49. Well, considering that they were poor slave farmers, this is really working out well for them.

[Raskolnik]

56. And pretending that industrialization of China doesn't have enormous benefits for its citizens

is just as stupid.

[PVnRT]

76. Some benefits, yes

On the other hand, since they are tethered to the U.S. consumer market, millions are losing their jobs and ending up right back where they started. I won't even mention the massive environmental disaster waiting to happen that is much of eastern and southern China.

[Raskolnik]

84. Yes, there needs to be a massive environmental policy shift in China,

But it is very easy for us to sit behind our computers and take for granted the fact that we have running water, electricity, and modern medicine when there are hundreds of millions of Chinese that aspire to these things.

It's one thing to talk about the unpleasant conditions in many Chinese factories, but you cannot ignore the fact that for millions of Chinese workers, the income from that factory job is several times greater than that possible in the peasant villages.

[tigereye]

47. actually sales of and orders for tvs are down in China and Japan

and workers in China are being laid off...

[Bread and Circus]

55. Honestly, the self loathing, self hating American routine is getting a bit stale.

[Waiting For Everyman]

59. Yup.

[Romulox]

61. Many of us hate what our coutnry has become.

Besides, if all we are is consumers, then where is the room for patriotism?

[babylonsister]

65. Yawn. That's another fine mess that has to be cleaned up,

but it won't happen overnight. Seems like you're shitting and pissing all over yourself with your grumbling.

[RollWithIt]

69. Listen here arsehat, my TV was not made in China, my 96" Jumbotron is Japanese made

Take that!

[LanternWaste]

72. And as we wined and dined the kids on Mac & Cheese and Goofy Juice

As we wined and dined the kids on Mac & Cheese and Goofy Juice last night, people in Darfur were wondering which family member would die of malnutrition the following day.

As we took a few hits from our bong this morning before work, an individual in Iran was beheaded for looking at government official's wife.

As we preached to the crowds about our own pet peeves yesterday, one thousand five hundred and seventy two American died of cancer.




What did we-- you, I or any of us, on an individual level do about any of that?
Rhetorical question-- we did nothing-- we simply kept preaching.

[Occam Bandage]

82. The industrialization of China is probably the best thing that has happened to that country

since the Communist party first launched its universal literacy program. And I say this having seen both its benefits and its drawbacks with my own eyes, and having discussed it with many Chinese in China.

[Bluerthanblue]

83. we're all slaves in our own way- I don't know many people who

do absoloutely nothing.

One thing to think about though- in America, if you don't own a home, rent a room, or have friends or family to shelter you- you have no legal place to be- that isn't true in many of the countries we consider 'backwards'-

As for shitting and pissing freedom, i didn't do any of that myself- what i did do was listen to our President talk to us about the mess we have gotten ourselves into, and the need to turn this country around, on so many levels.

:shrug:


hope you feel better, and find a way to make this a better world.

peace~

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. ROFLMAO!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[geek tragedy]

90. Is this snark?

Between this and the "Obama is a running dog capitalist Imperialist" nonsense, I can't tell the difference between satire and profound stupidity.

[bertman]

98. Bwaaaahhhaaaahaaaahaaaa

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

originalpckelly, your chain-jerking skills are extraordinary!

[MadBadger]

101. GREATEST...THREAD TITLE.....EVER

[bridgit]

103. Oh calm down, until you're willing to go there and make it better stop peeing 'liberal guilt'

on my shoes; this has been going on since Nixon opened China

[originalpckelly]

106. It's not like Richard Nixon and Charman Mao were a dirt bags.

Not at all.

[Raskolnik]

109. Question for you: have living standards in China risen or fallen since opening trade? n/t

[originalpckelly]

113. So if we have everything handed to us on a plate, yet cannot think, speak or do freely...

that would be acceptable?

[Raskolnik]

115. You didn't answer the question.

And your counter-question is utterly incomprehensible.

[Javaman]

120. he never does. he just likes to spout his self righteous indignation without

1) offering a solution
2) actually doing something about it other than bitching

just another angst filled wanna-be pissed at the world because his own world sucks and doesn't want to stand up and be an adult.

he's a very easy read. I've dealt with people very similar to kelly time and time again. They always talk in circles, never answer the question and call everyone around them dumb because no one can understand their bizarre sense of logic.

[originalpckelly]

131. Changing someone's mind is the most important thing that one can do.

If you change a person's mind, you can change their behavior.

[Javaman]

132. nice talking point. try again. it's and old one.

You make no attempt at changing minds, all you do is spount 3rd grade rhetoric. when you grow up and form a complete sentance. Contact me. Until, then you are just another angst loon who doesn't want to do the hard work.

[originalpckelly]

148. What you want us to do is think like we live in the middle 20th century.

Your thinking is out of date, there have been a few technological developments since that time.

You don't think we can use computers to debate one another and have a national discourse. Why then, my friend, has our fair President decided to issue electronic addresses on the internet, if there is no point to it? Why not just run around the country making speeches all the time? It's called technological progress.

[Javaman]

179. No, what I want you to do, like many people in society today...

is get off your lazy computer addicted ass and get out there and talk to people in person.

what part of Obama being a community organizer have you missed? That is the real work.

He's promoting computers and the net for people to connect. You can not feed a homeless person with computer chips. You can not cloth the poor with software.

It's become very apparent to me that you are very anti social and have very few interpersonal skills. I find it interesting that you use all sorts of excuses to explain away your behavior so you don't have to interact with actual people in person.

Like I said in an answer to another one of your responses to another of my posts, you are now blocked.

[Raskolnik]

135. Then why don't you answer my direct question? n/t

[originalpckelly]

147. Having more doesn't mean your life is more liveable...

what's that about give me liberty or give me death?

[Raskolnik]

150. Ah, so political/personal freedom is your metric. Was there more political/personal freedom in China

prior to the opening of trade?

[originalpckelly]

157. Oh don't even go there.

This is a country where people cannot search for the word democracy, and that's with the help of our corporations.

This is a country where people in prison are shot and killed and their organs harvested.

Yahoo, I can buy some shitty thing, that will make up for not being able to control my destiny.

[Raskolnik]

159. Once again, you didn't even try to answer the question, so I will ask it again.

Was there more political/personal freedom in China prior to the opening of trade?

[originalpckelly]

161. Yes it has, but eating pooridge every day is an improvement over starvation.

It doesn't mean pooridge is something that people can/should eat everyday.

[Raskolnik]

163. I take your answer to as an acknowledgement that since the opening of trade with China,

both the standard of living and the political/personal freedom of Chinese citizens has risen (and continues to rise). In fact, you would have to acknowledge that both these metrics have improved rather dramatically in the last few decades.

China's central government is a relatively oppressive regime that is slowly being forced to recognize more and more civil rights, and the standard of living for most Chinese citizens is steadliy rising. These developments are directly correlated to increased trade and modernization/industrialization of China. There are costs to this modernization, to be sure, but to pretend that China is not clearly and inexorably becoming a more open society as its fortunes increase is just wilfull ignorance.

edit spelling

[originalpckelly]

166. Do you really think the people at the top on either side care about the people...

in China at the bottom, or the even the US?

NO! They want to exploit the situation, trade with China doesn't exist to benefit the Chinese people, it's a side effect of exploitative trade.

[Raskolnik]

168. Irrelevant, and if you would quit speaking in broad slogans, you might have better luck with this.

You cannot deny the fact that the standard of living and the political/personal freedom for people in China has risen dramatically in the last few decades as a result of increasing trade with the rest of the world.

This increased trade has some downsides for China, and its modernization has not been (nor will it be) without missteps. But if you really care about Chinese workers, you have to acknowledge that many of the factory jobs that you are disparaging represent for them a way out of the crushing poverty of subsistence farming, and have allowed tens of millions of workers to build something better for their families.

This doesn't mean that conditions in many factories shouldn't improve, or that we shouldn't be outraged at examples of workers being mistreated. However, you are just plain ignorant if you really think that the majority of Chinese workers exist in a condition analogous to "slavery."

I suggest you read some of James Fallows' work from China--you may be surprised by much of what he has to report: http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/china/.


edit spelling

[leftstreet]

169. Did 'subsistence farming' in China automatically mean 'crushing poverty?'

Not being snarky, just wondering.

I know a lot of Chinese people were forced off their farms and into factories, and the Western mindset has always assumed that paid Capitalist labor is superior to subsistence farming.

:shrug:

[originalpckelly]

171. It should be called subsistenance factory working.

[leftstreet]

173. indeed

;-)

[Raskolnik]

174. No, very much not "indeed." Many tens of millions of the factory jobs allow

the workers to exist at something *other* than subsistence levels. They are able to send money home, they are able to save, and they are able to pass something along to their children. This is precisely the opposite of "subsistence" work.

[originalpckelly]

201. In our own country we have subsistence living, living paycheck to paycheck...

is precisely subsistence living.

[Raskolnik]

176. Pretty much, yes. That's what subsistence farming is, sort of by definition.

It means that you are able to raise just enough food to keep from starving, and if anything goes wrong (i.e. a bad growing season, bandits, etc.) you and your family don't have enough to eat.

[leftstreet]

194. Kinda like subsistence manufacturing

You get paid just enough to keep from starving, but if anything goes wrong (job loss, medical emergency, etc) you're screwed.

Not saying I don't see your point.
:hi:

[Raskolnik]

199. But that's the point that OPCK is utterly missing: many, if not most, of these factory jobs

are NOT "subsistence" work: they allow workers to do more than just survive, they allow them to save, send money home, and possibly pass something along to their children. The amounts were talking about seem paltry to us, but for Chinese peasants without running water or electricity, they can be the difference between one or more of their children starving to death.

[originalpckelly]

203. And what happens if they get crushed by a machine?

:shrug:

I assume a disabled person wouldn't be able to work in a factory, or at least as much as these corporate slave drivers want. Even if you save money, you do not have economic security, which is effectively one of the complaints against subsistence farming.

[Raskolnik]

206. Unbelievable. Now you're just upset that in reality, bad things can happen to people.

Sorry, but that's the world in which we live. People get sick, people get hurt, and people even die unexpectedly while leaving behind a family.

Your post has actually made the opposite point you intended, because in a developed society, the rest of society can and should pick up as much of that slack as possible. It is much more likely that society will be able to do just that if it has an industrial capacity, and if its citizens are engaging in something other than mere subsistence farming.

[originalpckelly]

170. If you want to parse language, go look up the history of the word slave.

Then come back and pull this semantic bullshit again.

[Raskolnik]

177. I don't think "parse" or "semantic" mean what you think they mean.

None of my argument is based upon either a parsing of language or a semantic point.

If you're going to be huffy, at least be right.

[Javaman]

181. kelly is probably the most ignorant person I have ever encountered

when it comes to slavery, world hunger, poverty, etc.

He loves talking in broad strokes and feels the worlds problems can be solved by robots, machines and computers and has no need to actually talk and help people in person.

it's like he dropped out of a techno version of the firsters brochure. Lots of rhetoric, very little substance.

Meh, I have stopped responding to him. He's a loon. I was going to block him but then realized, he has become a parody of himself and I find it more amusing to watch him spin his ever evolving message with each of his new posts.

[NeedleCast]

182. On a positive note

Without this sort of lunacy, we wouldn't have shows like Futurama...

[Javaman]

184. LOLOL this is very true!!! :) nt

[Raskolnik]

185. I couldn't stop laughing on the train this morning when I was watching Futurama

on my iPod and the Don Bot said that he "had to go drown a stoolie."

I may be immature.

[NeedleCast]

188. Thats one of my favorite episodes

You want me to Clamp him boss!?!

http://www.gotfuturama.com/Information/CharacterBios/clamps.dhtml
Clamps is part of the New New York organised crime family headed by DonBot. He carries out the usual beatings and threatenings together with fellow goon Joey Mouse Pad. He is very proud of the clamps on the end of his arms and uses the very strong instruments as frequently aspossible. He has a very short temper and often threatens people with a clamping before being held back by Joey.

[originalpckelly]

189. define: semantic

http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+semantics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t

define: parse
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define%3A+parse&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Semantics, in this case is your objection to my use of the word slavery.

Parsing, in this case is you analysis of my comments attempting to divine more meaning from them (oddly enough, ones that were beneficial to your argument.)

Meanwhile, in the real world, some guy just got shot in China and had his organs harvested for a westerner, but that's not exploitation.

[NeedleCast]

193. and someone else sent their child to college

on money they earned as a "factory slave."

In other No-fucking-Duh news, the world continues to be a place where bad things can happen.

[Raskolnik]

195. My objection to your ever-shifting point is that you are simply wrong.

You are wilfully ignorant about the situation in China, and you are using your own ignorance as a bludgeon. You don't really know what conditions in Chinese factories are, so you refer to Chinese workers as a whole as "slaves," which betrays a stunning ignorace about both China and actual slavery. This isn't a semantic point, or a parsing of language, but a direct refutation of your central argument.

You refuse to acknowledge that, while there is *large* room for improvement in many aspects of factory life for Chinese workers, trade has brought an enormous amount of improvement to the living standards of Chinese citizens, and continues to do so.

Your arguments about Chinese factories fell apart, so no you want to change to subject to organ-harvesting. That's weak.

[RaleighNCDUer]

224. Whereas, in this country, we pump our death penatly subjects full

of chemicals making their organs useless to help anybody at the end of their sad lives.

We are obviously so much more civilized.

[bridgit]

119. Then why haven't you been doing something about it? Why didn't you go down when Levi's closed...

packed up all their shit and moved to China? Or Hershey's Chocolate? Or Mattel Toys? Or any one of hundreds of others? Do you own Levi's? Do you own any garments with denim in them? Do you use No. 2 pencils? Bic lighters, Bic pens? Why weren't you like that guy in front of the tank in Tienanmen Square? Why your faux-rage just now? Why today? Or is this what you consider productive?

http://laborstrategies.blogs.com/global_labor_strategies/files/behind_the_great_wall_of_china.pdf

[Truth2Tell]

114. Recommended.

Because this is a valuable discussion.

[cliffordu]

138. So don't buy another fucking television.

And stfu until you get rid of your car.

[Joe Fields]

141. and I'm just sure you are free of hypocrisy...

give me a fucking break. Either you are an American or you aren't, which always means compromising a little bit of your soul to live a better life. Quit with the piety.

[iamthebandfanman]

149. yikes, such certainty.

glad you arent hoping for a brighter future where compromising ones soul isnt necessary. maybe i missed the part in the consitution or the bill of rights that states that the eroding of ones self is a neccesary trade off for the ability to exsist.

[Joe Fields]

don't be so naive. everyone sells off a little bit of their soul. everyone is

a hypocrite, to some degree.

Yes, I am certain I can prove this with anyone who challenges.

[Forkboy]

190. Too true.

I used to have a shirt that said "We Are All Prostitutes". I still believe that...some of us just have different prices.

[leftofthedial]

154. we can't help anyone until we help ourselves.

while you are puking and vomiting china's self-created problems on us, we're trying to create a new way of being a great country that we can then share with others.

What would you propose we do to help China once we stop shitting and pissing freedom? Do you think that shitting and pissing freedom is a bad thing? Maybe we could send China our freedom shit and freedom piss in exchange for their poisonous dog food and kid toys.

[KG]

156. much of the comfort americans enjoy is built on the backs of exploited peoples the world over.

an ugly truth many seem to want find ways to justify, it seems.

[originalpckelly]

158. If these people bent over backwards to justify this anymore...

they'd break their own fucking backs.

[Lex]

164. Same as the computer you're using?

nt

[Jamastiene]

180. I agree with your sentiment here, but

I don't think you needed to use bodily functions to express it.

[originalpckelly]

191. Valid point, but it connotes someone who's so drunk they've lost control of their bodily functions.

We are drunk on our self-righteousness as a country.

[flvegan]

196. Yeah, but our ShamWows are German.

[Burma Jones]

197. I would be very happy to live with less stuff if it were American Made

[harun]

198. I've been reading "A Peoples History of the United States" and

it is really the main theme of this country since WAY before we were even a country. A bunch of rich dudes sitting around with a shortage for cheap labor to do our bidding with. We learnt this from the royalty of Europe and while all of those countries have moved past that, we have not.

We are still trying to find even cheaper sources of labor, and to do anything other than actually doing that labor ourselves, or paying a fair price for it.

[Richardo]

202. Wait a sec: if I have slaves in China, why am I doing my own yard work like a chump?

:grr:

[AlCzervik]

205. Sucka!

my house was made in america, drywall came from a local place as well, i know in Florida! there have been issues with imported drywall which imo we do not need to be importing, for the matter we import catfish, WTH are we doing that for, tons of catfish already live here. Anyhow, let me put the car back on the track, there are things still made here.

I'm guessing the op has "made n America" all over eveyrhing on his person and in his house. :-) right?

[Richardo]

209. Not sure: I couldn't get past the scatalogical imagery and collective guilt of the OP's subject line

I don't do collective guilt. I have enough of my own to deal with.

[femrap]

208. I go out of my way to NOT

buy anything made in China. My TV was made in S. Korea. Maybe if some of the so-called Liberals would speak with their $$$$, we could improve Human Rights in China like we did in S. Africa.

But I guess that would take work, time, and maybe some extra money....and Americans aren't used to sacrificing.

[Deja Q]

210. China has pulled 1/3rd of its population, 400000 people, out of poverty.

Not bad for slavery...

Of course, the product quality sometimes leaves a tad to be desired, but in all fairness it's not been a consistent issue.

Plenty of blame to go around.

And, quite frankly, I like doing things. For a living wage. And strive for over 90% perfection rate and not live with 50% or less.

[Occam Bandage]

215. You missed a zero. nt

[Richardo]

211. Who's doing 'absolutely nothing' besides you?

I do a lot, and some of it even benefits relatively highly-paid Chinese skilled labor.

[Raskolnik]

213. No, you must be mistaken. If OPCK isn't doing anything productive, no one is.

[Richardo]

214. I forgot he speaks for 350 million people.

Mea culpa. :blush:

[uppityperson]

216. I was at work, cleaning up shit and piss. Who is "doing nothing"?

[GeorgeGist]

217. You got it half right .

The 'American Dream' is complete fantasy. What you call the 'other part' is a real catastrophe for all humanity.

For example, few Americans want to face the fact that the holocaust waged against the native 'Americans' wasn't just a bad dream; it really happened. But, unlike Germany, America 'won'.

K and R