I don't really understand Janeane Garofalo.

[Baikonour]

Here's an extremely liberal, anti-establishment self-described feminist...working for Fox on a television show that centers around terrorism and torture. I also remember her doing a piece of Sundance channel where she was going on about how she doesn't own a TV and how terrible TV is, etc.

I couldn't help but think about this when watching her on KO tonight. I agreed with everything she had to say, and she's the perfect guest to have on to counter anything Limbaugh has to say about women...but I still don't understand the whole Fox/24 thing. She said once in an interview that she needed the money...but surely there must be jobs out there that don't compromise your morals?

Oh well.

[Orrex]

1. I will be attacked for this, but 24 is much more complex than it is credited to be

I admit that I find her presence in the cast surprising--though welcome--even if the show is much loved by Repubs (and Neocons in particular).

[Baikonour]

3. I haven't watched it in recent seasons.

But the first couple seasons were propaganda pieces, IMO.

[Orrex]

17. Any film or tv show with an anti-terrorism theme is going to be criticized for that

Contrary to the popular critique of the show, torture is very seldom portrayed as an effective means of interrogation. In fact, though I may be misremembering, I can recall only ONE time in the whole run of the series when torture produced information that actually prevented an attack. That was in the first five minutes of the pilot episode.

However, I can see how the portrayal of easy, (and too easily justified) universal surveillance can be greatly distasteful in the context of today's world.

Still, the acting is solid, the writing is tight, and the production values are very good. I enjoy it as a work of fiction.

[1]

23. heh. what show are you watching? torture always works on "24"...

as it does in real life. so much so that the military asked "24" to tone it down a bit.

it was getting too close to home...

[Orrex]

29. Cite some examples, please.

Remember the criteria: the torture as portrayed must yield information that actually helps to advance the investigation or otherwise prevent an attack from occurring.

Super-Bauer, armed only with his sidearm, can also take out a roomful of guys with machineguns, each with a single shot, and any civilians in harm's way will escape without injury. It's little things like this that help move the show into the realm of escapist fiction.

[1]

30. ok. off the top of my head. this season when "lady jack" rammed the business end of her pistol...

into that dude in the hospital bed. and then cut off his air supply by squeezing the tube shut. dude totally gave up the matobo kidnapping effort.

3:00 to 4:00 buddy. and that is just one i can thing of...

[Orrex]

31. Didn't stop the kidnapping, though

Jack and Tony were already working to that end, and Lady Jack only managed to get herself captured.

Additionally, her character is clearly gearing up to suffer horrible guilt and remorse about her involvement in such tactics, something of a counter-point to Jack's near-invulnerability.

[1]

34. but it worked. heh...

[Orrex]

37. No, it didn't, and that's kind of the whole point

She didn't get there in time to stop the kidnapping. Further, the Attorney General came down on her almost immediately afterwards.


Additionally, the show is fiction, not a documentary.

[1]

40. heh. whatever. you are funny. you demand answers from a tv show...

and then dismiss the examples as they are from a tv show. hey, at least you watch 24. i do too. not many here would admit to that. i saw "kung foo panda" as well, but i suspect panda's don't really know kung foo.

you are amusing. keep it up...

[Orrex]

42. No need to be patronizing.

I'm not demanding answers from a tv show; I asked for examples of the show portraying torture as an effective means of obtaining information. That is, I'm asking that the critics--not the show--provide answers.

What you call "dismiss(ing) the examples" is really the heart of the matter. I rejected the example you cited because it does not portray torture as effective. Do you not understand this?

[1]

46. well, again, its a tv show. what would those examples really mean or prove?

do you really want to prove/disprove torture as an effective/non-effective means of obtaining information from a tv show?

is that what you asked? really?


dude. i am not being patronizing. i just don't understand. i don't think anyone could...

[Orrex]

47. The question isn't that complicated, really

The criticism is that 24 too often portrays torture as effective--that's the general critique, not specific to you or your posts.

My rebutal was intended to demonstrate that, in fact, the program does not portray torture that way and in fact often shows it to be generally ineffective.


I have no idea where you came up with this question:

do you really want to prove/disprove torture as an effective/non-effective means of obtaining information from a tv show?

That doesn't seem to track with anything I've written in this thread, or anywhere else for that matter. I was talking about whether or not 24 presents torture as an effective tactic, and I assert that it does not.

I didn't comment one way or the other on the real-world effectiveness of real-world torture. For the record, I believe that it is almost certain to be ineffective in very nearly every case.

But that has nothing to do with the inclusion of torture as a dramatic device in a work of fiction.

[1]

54. ok. i get it now. you are of the belief that torture is never effective...

and it will never reveal any sort of useful information. and that the tv show "24" proves this in very nearly every case.

ok. i disagree.

you have been a very respectful poster. i appreciate that. i hope i was too. (du has the tendency to resort to all sorts of ugly name calling. you didn't.)

so, peace to you my brother. in this world we can disagree. disagreement is not disrespect.

let's leave it at that...

[Orrex]

55. One clarification: I didn't say 'never'

I said that it's almost certain to be ineffective. This is based on the well-known fact that the victim will say just about anything to get the torturer to stop. It's therefore difficult if not impossible to credit anything that the victim says, unless the torturer has independent corroborating evidence, in which case we have to ask why the torture was happening in the first place.

But I do agree with your summary of my view that 24 demonstrates the ineffectiveness of torture.


Peace out, yo!

[1]

56. cool. thank you. and here is the last thing i will say about torture...

well-known facts aside, about saying anything and whatnot...

here is how real torture works. if i know that you know your pin number to your bank account, i can get you to reveal that pin number. because i know that you know. and the result can be verified. this is a fact that i don't know that you will provide.

you can "say anything" in the course of this, and we can do this over and over again, but in the end i will know the truth. in the end, the truth will come out.


that is how real torture works.

[undeterred]

38. Agreed.

[Seen the light]

53. 24 is again the best show on TV

People that get all worked up about a make-believe Rambo-type show can kiss my ass.

[Kittycat]

2. Everyone has their price, and money makes the mortgage company happy?

[librechik]

4. it's not easy being a 40 year old actress

she knows what she's doing--and must not have had any alternative.

Life is real.

[Smarmie Doofus]

21. And Reality Bites.

>>>Life is real.>>>>

[Ex Lurker]

24. I'll bet she's older than that n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

5. Gary Sinise has played Truman on film and Tom Joad on stage..

...and I understand he's a pretty die-hard right winger.

That's why it's called acting.

[falcon97]

6. I was not her biggest fan on Air America....

...(is she still on there?). But I thought she was awesome in The West Wing.

[Baikonour]

13. Nope, she's been of AA for awhile.

It was an okay show, I just don't think her style translates well to radio. She'd be great as a host of a show like Bill Maher's, or a more funny/less serious version of Countdown.

[Proud_Lefty]

7. She needs the money

I saw her on a talk show recently and she said she didn't want to participate in this show, but she needed to eat. She sounded like she has been having a hard time making ends meet.

[Baikonour]

9. Kind of a poor excuse for what could be construed as selling out, if you ask me.

I need money too, but I wouldn't go and get it from the hands of a group of people I loathe.

But to each their own. She can do what she pleases, as long as she can deal with becoming less relevant in the eyes of some people.

[Proud_Lefty]

19. She also said the exec producer pointed out it was merely acting

and when she weighed it out, she realized he was right. It's a part.

I know I was in a job last year making very good money, when I realized the owners were staunch Republicans and born-again Christians. I was frantically looking for work elsewhere. I hated working there; felt like I was on a different planet, but I needed the money to take care of my family so I couldn't just walk away. Finally, they fired me illegally and I got a new job right away, making a lot less money. However, I'm much happier.

It worked out for me finally, but I sure understand that dilemma. And I sure would have hated people judging me for trying to survive in this crazy country.

[1]

8. janeane gotta eat. shit, charlie sheen (and others) do war flicks...

its just a job.

we should love them for their witty comments on talk shows and in magazine articles. that's who they really are.

ignore the money they take as a paycheck. that don't mean nothing. that doesn't say anything about them...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. She's taking their money and talking bad about them - how much better can it get? nt

[Incitatus]

11. No, she wanted the money.

I seriously doubt she would have missed any mortgage payments without the part.

[Baikonour]

15. Agreed.

Take a look at her IMDb.

The residuals from all those projects have to account for something. And is she not doing stand-up anymore?

[Tangerine LaBamba]

18. Residuals............

Not a whole lot of actors who aren't top stars getting residuals from syndication.

I seriously doubt that a second-tier (or is she third-tier?) personality like Garafalo would be getting much in the way of residuals.

I never thought she had any kind of talent, and I always felt sad about that.

[madinmaryland]

12. I caught part of her interview on KO and she seemed a bit disjointed.

I remember seeing her interviewed on KO and elsewhere in the early days of AAR, and she was much different. Much more impassioned.

[Mojambo]

14. Girlfriend's gotta get paid. n/t

[MinM]

16. Kiefer Sutherland too...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x220909

[Rob Gregory Browne]

20. 24 is FICTION

The stuff that goes on is made up by writers. Their job is to entertain. Same for the actors. They're playing make-believe.

I'm about as liberal as you can get and I enjoyed what I've seen of 24 (the first two seasons). Years ago, Clint Eastwood made a series of movies about a fascist cop named Dirty Harry. I loved those movies, too, even though I'd want a cop like that in real life put away forever.

It really helps to separate fiction from reality and not attack an actor for doing her job. Is she good in the show? Enough said.

[Baikonour]

25. Fiction is often inspired by perceived reality.

And we're talking Fox's perceived reality..

[Rob Gregory Browne]

35. The People Who Create Fictional Content at FOX

have little to do with the people who create the news there. Well, except the actual news people, who seem to create fiction all the time (but that's a different matter).

Fiction is ALWAYS inspired by reality. Take it from someone who makes a living at writing it. But the characters in the books I write don't always reflect my political beliefs. It's silly to take a show like 24 seriously. It's an ENTERTAINMENT. Nothing more.

[Ex Lurker]

22. Umm, a paycheck?

progressives have to eat, too.

[Taverner]

32. Yup

Kiefer Sutherland isn't exactly a Republic

Neither is James Cromwell

[Connie_Corleone]

26. Because she understands the show is just goofy entertainment and FICTION.

There are plenty of liberals, including myself, who watch the show. I don't take it seriously. I know that the torture tactics on there don't work in real life and that terrorism cases aren't solved in 24 hours.

Janeane was given the opportunity to be on a popular TV show and she took it. Good for her.

[Orrex]

44. Nah, that can't be it

She must be just another unprincipled Hollywood whore who'll abandon her facade of feminist liberalism simply to get a paycheck.

[Political Heretic]

27. I like 24

Maybe she's not as hung up about TV fiction, good or bad, as some people are.

[iamjoy]

28. In An Interview On NPR

Before this season of 24 began, Kiefer Sutherland was doing an interview with NPR and they asked him about what the show depicts and the current political climate.

clip:
"Well, I think one of the things that's kind of remarkable about 24, I mean, we ended up shooting, I think, the first eight episodes before the terrible events of Sept. 11," Sutherland said. "There are a lot of things in regards to 24 that, unfortunately, are tracking a lot of issues that are happening almost in real time. And so, yes, that's not surprising."

"With regards to the torture aspect, we were using it as a dramatic device to show you how important a situation was," he added. "Then, obviously, the events in Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo and everything else became a real focal point for us as a nation to look at what we're doing. And it only seems sensible that we as a show would do the same thing."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99140337

[1]

33. do as janeane says. not how janeane does. are we clear now? she has tattoos and everything...

and she talks a good game. if she shops at walmart and eats baby seals from canada, that doesn't mean you should.

do as janeane says. not how janeane does.

after all, she is a star...

[Rhiannon12866]

36. I really don't get the tattoos...

:shrug:

[SoCalDem]

39. Maybe she thought they would make her more "edgy". She's always reminded me of a younger, smaller

Rosie O'Donnell.. funny, quirky, mouthy..always played the comedic side-kick, gal-pal..

[Ex Lurker]

41. Garafalo actually has an interesting take on things

I just find O'Donnell to be obnoxious.

[Orrex]

43. Whew. I thought I was the only one.

I praise Rosie's fearlessness and her outspoken political commentary, but I've never found her entertaining or amusing.

[SoCalDem]

48. NOW she is, but once upon a time, she was actually endearing:)

It was a while back :)

[Orrex]

49. Yikes! When was that?!?

I found her brash and unwatchable as far back as VH1's Standup Spotlight.

I admit that I never saw much of her talkshow, though.

[SoCalDem]

50. 1980's

:rofl:

[Rhiannon12866]

58. Thanks. You're probably right... Whenever I've seen her on KO, Bill Maher, etc., she wears

a tank top to show off the tattoos. I feel chilly when I see her, LOL. They're also awfully colorful and garish. I'd think they'd make things tough for an actress. Does she ever discuss them? :shrug::hi:

[Motown_Johnny]

45. Ever seen "Mystery Men"? I bet she does need the money..

[Greyhound]

51. All you have to understand is that she is an actress.

She works in a profession that is worse than slavery. A profession that a tiny handful of people, mostly men, dominate with absolute power. A profession that less than 3% of it's members ever make even a modest living at. A profession that has carte blanche to practice discrimination that is illegal in every other profession in America, and where one person can literally ensure that you will never work again.

Actors work when they can, as much as they can, wherever they can, because they never know if they will ever work again, and it took years and years to get even that. It is totally crazy and ruled by completely capricious slugs, so cut the woman a little slack.

[question everything]

52. Have you ever watched '24' or are you just parroting what others have been

saying?

I posted before that '24' should be admired by DUers since every season the really bad guys are the traitors and moles inside the government, the White House, CTU and now FBI.

This season is really good, a lot better than the last one. Jack has not tortured anyone, except for yelling at a suspect and the bad guys are in the Secret Service and the Senate office.

[L. Coyote]

57. Actress has job. D'oh! What part don't you get?

If you are a Dem waiter, you wait on Republicans, not just Dems. That's why they call it a "job."