Spending money we don't have.

[Deep13]

I'm getting a bit sick of these R. politicians and their media and internet allies saying the Feds. are spending money they don't have. Inevitably, the analogy is made to a household budget and the claim is that a person or a business cannot deficit spend or spend money it does not have. Factually, however, that is simply not true. I spent money I don't have to buy a house, a car and law school tuition. My in-laws spent money they don't have to buy a bigger factory with more and better equipment than the old one. Because of that, they were able to hire more people, contribute valuable industrial products (made in America!) and export them to other countries, advance the state of their technology as well as do very well for themselves. It is unreasonable to think that an asset with benefits for decades or even centuries should be paid from this year's budget. I can afford my home mortgage. And America can afford the recovery act.

Edited for spelling.

[LynnTheDem]

1. Fact is, spending money is the only known way to get out of a depression/recession.

Ya think after that last big one, republics would know that elementary bit of economics.

But then the majority of republics still think Saddam Hussein did 911!

Rightwingnuts; dumbest MFers.

Ever.

[marketcrazy1]

2. spending money to create jobs

is one thing but throwing hundreds and hundreds of billions at stupid bankers is doing little more than subsidizing the losses of their investors at taxpayer expense..............

[LynnTheDem]

3. I too deeply dislike bailing those MFers out.

But for all our own good, we're gonna have to do it.


Let's do it this time with strict oversight.

[Deep13]

5. And meanwhile the bank is threatening to call in their loans...

...on the previously mentioned industrial equipment for a few bucks in scrap value because they are so starved for cash.

This isn't about any notion of right and wrong. It is about getting the system working again so the Feds. don't need to bail out the economy indefinitely.

[Romulox]

4. The problem with the mortgage analogy is that the people who will pay back the money aren't born yet

[Deep13]

8. Why is that a problem?

They'll still pay it.

[Romulox]

14. Because it is immoral to live a life of luxury at the expense of others' suffering. nt

[Deep13]

15. What's that got to do with preventing a decade-long depression? nt

[Romulox]

16. You asked why living off of inter-generational debt was wrong--I answered. nt

[Deep13]

17. You've changed footing.

First you said that passing debt onto future generation was a "problem."

Then you said it is wrong to live in luxury while others suffer in povery. True, but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Now you are saying the present generation is "living off" debt to be paid be future generations.

Future generations will enjoy the assets that we now buy on credit. In addition to a functioning health care, improved eductation, low-pollution energy and transportation, they will also have the benefit of a sound economy while living in a free and open society. To put it simply, the recovery act is for them.

[Romulox]

18. So why not just charge a GAZILLION dollars to your grandchildren's account

"Future generations will enjoy the assets that we now buy on credit."

A dubious assumption, to say the least. The military budget which dominates our "discretionary" spending, for example, is wasted, with little or no lasting benefit to future generations.

"In addition to a functioning health care"

Errr...Nobody's proposing UHC.

"low-pollution energy and transportation, they will also have the benefit of a sound economy while living in a free and open society. To put it simply, the recovery act is for them."

Sorry, but this is self-serving and unprovable. There is no evidence that massive deficits lead to a "sound economy"--quite the opposite.

[Deep13]

19. Well, I guess you voted for the wrong guy.

And I said a functioning health care system, not a universal one. Anyway, POTUS is pretty clear that universal coverage is the ultimate goal.

I don't see how my claims are self-serving. I have no dog in this fight, except to the degree that as an American, what happens around here effects me. No one is offering me recovery funds. So that is a baseless accusation.

And if we don't have low-polluting renewable energy, the future will be screwed anyway.

The degree to which military spending dominates the Federal treasury is a question of policy that will have to be reviewed and POTUS has said he will do it. He is already winding-down the Iraq war. None of us here asked for this situation, but it does not change the fact we are stuck with it.

[Romulox]

20. LOL. What a silly answer.

"Anyway, POTUS is pretty clear that universal coverage is the ultimate goal."

Errr, the POTUS campaigned against UHC--he called it "extreme". :hi:

"And if we don't have low-polluting renewable energy, the future will be screwed anyway."

There's no evidence that the current stimulus (or budget) will magically make this appear.

"The degree to which military spending dominates the Federal treasury is a question of policy that will have to be reviewed and POTUS has said he will do it."

Right. He's asking for an increase in military spending.

[Deep13]

21. He campaigned against NATIONALIZED health, not universal health.

Who said anything about magic? This is a sensible start.

He's ending the Iraq war.

Jesus Christ, these are the kinds of conversations I have with Republicans.

[guitar man]

6. I didn't hear them complain

when they were throwing borrowed money at an unnecessary war in Iraq by the truckload. :eyes:

[gratuitous]

7. You didn't hear a peep out of these guys

Where were they when we were spending billions, even trillions, we don't have on the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? I didn't hear a word about fiscal responsibility from these fuckers when we were sending people to kill and get killed halfway around the world. And what do we have to show for it?

Now we're looking to spend money on roads, schools, health care, and a bunch of other things (yes, even volcano monitoring) that will benefit someone besides no-bid defense contractors. And listen to the piggies squeal!

[mikekohr]

10. 96% Of Today's National Debt Has Been Ran Up By Reagan, Bush and Bushed

When Reagan took office in 1981 the national debt was $930 billion. When GW Bush left office it had exploded to $10.8 TRILLION! Clinton balanced the yearly budget and paid down the national debt by $587 billion. In effect 96%, $10.4 Trillion, of today's national debt has been ran up by the last three Republican presidents, Reagan, Bush and Bushed.

--------------------------------DEMOCRATS OUT-PERFOM REPUBLICANS ON EVERY ECONOMIC STANDARD-------------------------------------------

1). FEDERAL SPENDING: since 1960 Republicans increased Federal Spending by 71% more than have Democrats

2). FEDERAL DEBT: since 1960 Republicans have increased the National debt by 100% more per year than have Democrats.

3). GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT: since 1921, adjusted for inflation, Democrats outproduce Republicans by 43% . Starting in 1940 the Democratic advantage is 23% better.

4). REAL PER CAPITA INCOME: since 1960 Democrats have outperformed Republicans by 30%. (This is perhaps the most important economic statistic of all)

5). INFLATION: since 1960, Democrats outperform Republicans 3.13% to 3.89%

6). UNEMPLOYMENT: since 1960 it decreases in an average Democratic year by 0.3% to 5.33%, and increases in average Republican year by 1.1% to 6.38%.

7). JOB CREATION: from 1945 to 2003, Democrats produced 174,200 jobs per month, Republicans have only produced 60,600 per month. Every time a Democrat succeeds a Republican, job creation soars. Every time a Republican succeeds a Democrat job creation plummets. NO EXCEPTIONS!


8). DOW JONES AVERAGE: since 1921 the DOW has increased by 52% more under Democratic administrations

9). THE BOND MARKET: since 1940 the value of 10 year Treasury bonds rose 1.2% under Democrats and fell 0.5% under Republicans

SOURCES-Bureau of Labor Statistics, Economic Policy Institute, Christian Science Monitor, The Los Angles Times -Michael Kingsley-
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MONTHLY JOB CREATION RECORDS BY PRESIDENT AND PARTY

Many Americans are aware that George W. Bush has had the worst job creation record since the government began tracking these figures in 1939. But Bush's colossal failure to manage the economy overshadows a much larger story. The record shows two unmistakable patterns:

1). Every time a Republican succeeds a Democrat in the White House, the job creation rate plummets.

2). Every time a Democrat succeeds a Republican in the White House, the job growth rate soars. Every time! No exceptions!

Over the last seventy years, the decrease in monthly job creation when a Republican succeeds a Democrat is 68,913



Considering the steady growth in population of the United States during this time frame the job creation rate should steadily increase each month (currently it must grow by 138,000 per month to keep up with population growth). This trend only manifests itself when examining Democratic administrations:

Listed below is the average job growth increase for all terms served:

Democratic Record:

Truman +86,500
Kennedy +100,000
Johnson +191,666
Carter +216,666
Clinton +241,666
-----------------
Jobs gained per month
+167,200


Republican Record:
Eisenhower +36,500
Nixon +141,666
Reagan +166,666
G. H. Bush +52,083
G. W. Bush +31,250
----------------------
Jobs gained per month
63,853

[marketcrazy1]

11. yes we spent a fortune

on the Iraq fiasco, estimates are total cost could reach 2 trillion before we are done and we will have spent that money over the course of ten+ years. to bailout the FRAUD in our banking system could cost alot more than 2 trillion and we will need to spend it over the course of LESS than 2 years!!! we could end up throwing 3 to 4 TRILLION at this problem and all we will get out of it is ten to twenty years of stagnant or no growth perhaps even a depression while trillions of dollars in YOUR wealth from 401k`s declining home values and lower or NO wages has been WIPED OUT!!! all so we can "save" the banks! and what can we do about it?..... NOTHING!!! just sit back and watch the national debt clock run out of digits!! thats whats so frustrating!!!

[KharmaTrain]

9. It's Also Money We Can Save And Make...

There's two ways to look at government...as an agent of good or of wrong. repugnicans have always seen government as an evil that sucks money yet they ignore how that money returns to their pockets. Well, not entirely...when they have their mitts on the treasury, they print money like it's going out of style and throw it around like drunken sailors. Thanks to georgie booosh, we got to see how unbridled capitalism and "smaller government" meant greed, corruption and ultimate economy disaster. Right now any repugnican who dares to speak about "fiscal responsibility" or wasteful spending should be told to STFU.

A rebuilt middle class means more people earning and spending. It fueled the greatest rise in this country's economy from 1945-1970 and also in the 90's as not only did the federal goverment balance budgets and begin to spend down the defecit, states were enjoying record suprluses. All benefitted...better golf courses for the rich.

Right now the "marketplace" could easily correct things...just seperate the bad debt from the good and start the credit flowing, but who has the cash to do that? Citibank? Skank Bank of America? Morgan-Stanley? They can't. Only the government can and has the ability not only to make the banking system solvent but also generate the job development that will be needed to rebuild the economy. But repugnicans are too short sighted to see that...they've always been blinded by their arrogance, ignorance and greed.

Cheers...

[elocs]

12. Guitar man and gratuitous are exactly correct. Republicans had no problem with deficit spending

when it came to the wars. There were unlimited funds for them even though the money wasn't there and and would be repaid by future generations coupled with a big tax cut for the wealthy What a concept! It's like not having enough money coming in to pay your bills when you are in the red and the solution is to quit a second job so you have less money coming into the household.

[Deep13]

13. They ignore that military is still government spending...

...but with nothing lasting in return. Sure, we need security to have an economy, but it is an expense, not an investment.

edit: wrong word

[SmileyRose]

22. Well SOMEBODY has it !!

If the hedge fund managers could afford diamond encrusted toilet paper then surely we can figure out where all the wealth created by the "Paycheck Americans" went.........


Sorry, I'm being smarmy. I'm just sick of the RW crapola machine. I just wish the RW thought of workers as an investment instead of a liability............