It's not about a cheese sandwich at all.

[madfloridian]

Those who think it is about a cheese sandwich need to spend some time in classrooms and school lunchrooms with young kids.

It's a punitive measure. It began that way, and it is today.

It has been one of the most obvious signs here at DU how our culture has changed under the Bush administration and it's rigid conservatism.

Before I retired as a teacher, I witnessed the struggle when our lunchroom at school began the "cheese sandwich" gambit. It was very obviously meant to embarrass the children whose parents were behind in their lunch payments.

It was done in a harsh way very often, with the lunchroom workers pulling the kids out of line after loudly calling out their name. They presented them their "cheese sandwich" lunch so that it could not be missed by anyone in the lunchroom. After many teachers complained they toned it down a little, but there were still loud arguments with the children who just did not understand why they were being taken out of the line to be given a cheese sandwich.

The lunches were cooked in large quantities. It saved nothing at all financially to prepare separate "cheese sandwich" lunches for the needy children.

I knew the family backgrounds of the children I taught in 2nd grade when they started that policy. I tried to explain some of the situations to the lunchroom management. They got angry with me for standing up for the children's feelings. They reported me to the principal who told me to back off.

The same thing happened to other teachers who did not like the discrimination. It was a shocking thing to everyone when it began, but I see it has become acceptable now.

It never was and still is not about a cheese sandwich or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, or any other kind of sandwich.

It's about embarrassing children needlessly when it would be just as economically sound to feel them a regular lunch.

It's a harsh conservative tactic meant to humiliate when it could be handled another way. The fact that it is accepted so easily at a Democratic forum scares me.

[Gormy Cuss]

1. Thank you.

Edited to add that any of us who have been the child in that situation don't need to have this explained.

[HowHasItComeToThis]

316. THAT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN IN MY STATE

[geckosfeet]

347. Oh no.

Not in mine either.
:eyes:

[phantom power]

2. I agree. It's about public shaming. And worse, shaming the innocent.

[tanngrisnir3]

326. No, it's not. It's about feeding people. All this manufactured indignation

amounts to just so much bullshit.

There would be much, much easier and cheaper ways of publically humilating kids if that were actually what this was about.

[phantom power]

328. I'll agree to disagree.

[Maru Kitteh]

401. It's exactly what it's about, and you know it.

At least have the courage of standing behind your convictions.

[ekwhite]

414. I call bullshit on your post

Hauling the kids out of the lunch line to give them a cheese sandwich is MEANT to humiliate them. That is the point. Humiliate them and their parents to make them 'pay up.' These tactics are despicable.

[IsItJustMe]

423. Go eat your cheese sandwich.

[I Have A Dream]

470. In my opinion, it's not about purposefully publicly humiliating...

the children, but rather a lack of empathy in reference to what their policy puts them through.

[Two Americas]

486. a little of both

The obliviousness of some enables the maliciousness of others. That happens everywhere, all the time, on every subject.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

We describe "doing nothing" in a variety of ways to disguise it - practicality, being realistic, working within the system, taking baby steps, being open to all points of view, not getting too radical, seeing shades of gray, etc.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Oh my god, there was a thread about this a while back and I got slammed for saying the same thing.

[DJ13]

12. I got slammed too

[snappyturtle]

13. Me too!!! nt

[madfloridian]

56. There's a new conservative righteous element at DU now.

It's our Bush legacy.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

4. Then do away with school provided lunches alltogether.

Let the kids eat what the parents can afford to send them to school with.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Uh, perhaps you mistook this for a libertarian forum.

It's not.

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

23. My point is: School is about providing education... not lunchtime.

And I understand the school's decision is not "about the cheese sandwich" and "saving money" by offering a simple lunch. Heck, it probably costs a little more to provide a separate preparation even if it is just bread/cheese/fruit. It's about a measure taken to get parents to pay for a due lunch fee. If the kid is upset in any measurable way by having to eat a cheese sandwich, then I'm sure he will report home to his/her parents. Then, the parents should decide the next plan of action: Talk to school officials about financial situation, pay the bill, talk to the kid, start providing a packed lunch...

Would you rather the school just STOP feeding a child who has a delinquent lunch fee? <-- That would be an outrage
Cheese sandwich. Feeds the kid, sends parents a message.

I don't believe school systems, most too underfunded to provide proper salaries and supplies, should be forced to stress expend precious budget to feed kids whose parents haven't the inclination to atleast work something out with school officials.

[Hello_Kitty]

44. Some schools provide BREAKFAST too!

:wow:

Seriously though, it's not real conducive to learning when your tummy is growling from hunger. That's why schools provide meals.

[TommyO]

45. More importantly it sends the kid a message that he's different, and inferior!

Gotta love it.

[KittyWampus]

64. No, it sends a message his parent's too lazy to FILL OUT THE FORMS for free or subsidized lunch

OR it sends a message the kid's parent can pay but forgot to pay.
OR it sends a message the kid's parent gave them a couple of bucks in cash for lunch but the kid pocketed the money for something else and is eating the cheese sandwich instead.

it is a basic requirement of parenthood to feed your child or know they are getting fed.

Either fill out the forms for free or subsidized lunch.

OR, if you have the money for lunch, THEN PAY UP CURRENT.

OR, understand the kid just might be getting cash at home but chooses the cheese sandwich.

[TommyO]

86. I'm sure the kid will understand that when they're yanked out of line and berated

as the original poster indicated.

[KittyWampus]

89. Except the OP'er is full of crap. There are THREE reasons for kids eating cheese sandwiches

#1. poor parent can't pay and didn't fill out forms
#2. parent CAN pay but forgot
#3. parent gave kid cash but kid pockets money and opts for cheese sandwich

[TommyO]

91. Madfloridian posted her real experiences with this issue

[Kokonoe]

139. You forgot #4

Shame 7 year olds in public for not having money.

[Grinchie]

276. As I said, it's a form of control

Impress them at at early age to make money or else.

[Chorophyll]

244. Or:

the kid comes from a home where there is no responsible adult. You ever hear of that? It's on the news all the time. But you're okay with blaming the victim -- in this case, a child.

Nice.

[Grinchie]

274. Nice analogies but..

1. Maybe poor parent can't read.
2. So.
3. It's the kids decision, and he or she knows it.

Personally, they should be feeding them Granola or something with a lower glycemic index that Bread and Cheese that is of dubious quality.

Weith the state of Agribusiness today, does anyone really know how cheese is made anymore?

[Stellabella]

339. Actually, you are full of crap.

Did you learn that kind of attitude in church?

[varelse]

355. There is only *one* reason for the way this rule is being enforced

You've chosen to ignore that completely. Nice going.

[Raster]

397. Just love the christian compassion and charity.

Matthew 25: 35-40"‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;

36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?

38 ‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?

39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’

40 “The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ "

[Snazzy]

399. there are THREE reasons you should go eat a crap sandwich

(sorry random capitalization fit there)

1. You like 'em
2. You promote 'em
3. Your mom made 'em

[marshall]

453. I agree with your points, but shaming the kids is not the answer

When I was a teacher I witnessed many of my colleagues who seemed to intensely dislike and resent the students. They concocted ways to enter into conflict with them, then sent them to the office, called their parents, or punished them in some other way when the students responded.

I got free lunches when I was in school. Every morning a woman passed out tickets--paid lunches got a white ticket and free lunches got a yellow ticket, and there was another ticket for a hamburger. Other kids noticed during lunch who was handing over a yellow ticket, and it was embarassing.

[Butch350]

451. Come On

It's no more humiliating then getting your butt kicked by a bully! Gee, that poor child is gonna need a lot of therapy as an adult!
One good thing comes from this - at least the kid won't become Obese. The complete facts are not even known about this situation.
Give me a call when they take away the kids school books! Waaaaaaaay Toooooooo much time spent on a stinking CHEESE SANDWICH!

[nichomachus]

144. Nothing helps a kid more than being punished for his parents' shortcomings

[ehrnst]

Yep - it's high time we brought humiliation back into public education.

:sarcasm:

[nichomachus]

254. Let's go back to dunce caps for kids with learning disabilities

That'll teach them.

[unapatriciated]

404. or tie those lefties hands behind their backs...

don't want them growing up left handed.

A teacher did that to my sister in Kindergarten, my mom ripped her up one side and down the other.

[ekwhite]

417. I used to get my hand slapped

for using my left hand. Bastards.

[unapatriciated]

422. It amazes me that some are still advocating humiliating children over....

stuff they have no control over. My sister still remembers that day like it was yesterday.

[ehrnst]

215. DId you go to public school? Kids do not make that distinction...(nt)

[Lyric]

231. Lazy! Of course!

Poor people who don't fill out the forms are just LAZY! They aren't illiterate, or confused because they can't find their Food Stamp case number (required on the form for Food Stamp recipients who get free lunch,) or here illegally and too scared to fill out federal paperwork, or any such bleeding heart nonsense.

No, they're just fucking LAZY. Never heard that one before. Thanks for the enlightenment, oh liberal one.

:eyes:

[Chorophyll]

240. Do you believe that every single child in the public schools

has a nice responsible parent at home??? If that's the case in your town, I'd like to move there!

Why is it so terrible to you that the schools provide a safe haven for children in addition to an education? To hear this "every man fer himself on th' wild frontier" crap coming out of a Democrat is really alarming.

[kimmerspixelated]

286. Touche'!

[RetroLounge]

336. "crap coming out of a Democrat "

That's an assumption I won't make.

:hi:

RL

[Chorophyll]

386. An alleged Democrat, anyway.

:hi:

[Raster]

479. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that a progressive Democrat would not advocate shaming a child

for any fucking reason. Call me crazy...

[Chorophyll]

480. I'm with you.

So what's going on with this board?

[Two Americas]

350. beat the crap out of them

You tell them! The lazy good for nothing deadbeats. We need to crack down! Whatever it takes!

If people would follow the damned rules, we wouldn't have to punish them.

Let's put the parents in jail! Or sue them! Or forbid them to send their children to school at all!

Damned parents. Why can't they be perfect like us?

And the kids are probably cheating! Getting lunch money but then spending it on something else. You know how they are.

Enough is enough - all of these poor people everywhere, whining and complaining. They have no one to blame but themselves. Personal responsibility! That's what I say! It is time to crack down on all of those losers, and crack down hard!

Hey being a liberal and everything is fine, but at some point it is time to out on the jackboots and get serious when people won't do what we want them to do.

We have been too soft and too lenient for too long. What these poor people need is discipline and punishment. If their kids get hurt in the process, well that is just too damned bad. They should have thought of that.

[Jamastiene]

369. I see some people here have taken the "Kill the poor" mantra

as their crown and glory. I'd like to say I cannot believe the cold heartedness I am seeing here, but I can. It's people with no compassion who are making out world a really shitty place to live. I will always believe that.

[Two Americas]

376. agreed

It is so bad here that I wondered if I needed a sarcasm tag on my post.

"It's people with no compassion who are making our world a really shitty place to live."

And we have a political and economic system that rewards and supports them. We can change that. The few should not be able to dictate to the rest of us how we must all live.

[CreekDog]

392. When they hold banks accountable for insolvency

I'll entertain the thought for 7 year olds.

In the meantime, use your time wisely by arguing some other issue.

[corpseratemedia]

58. the kids parent's have the inclination but may be too poor and hungry stomachs

can't concentrate in school..what's a bigger waste, "throwing away" $2.00 at a hungry child or $30k per teacher per year to teach a number of kids
who are too hungry to pay attention.

schools are underfunded because taxes have been cut (starting 32 or so years ago with prop. 13 in CA)too much for the wealthy and their attempts to stagnate or deflate wages through outsourcing, right-too-work part-timing, etc.

Why do many of the newly upscale wealthy have no inclination to take responsibility for their own actions to impoverish others?

[madfloridian]

60. So you advocate the ridicule of the kids. Gotcha.

All I needed to know.

[TommyO]

90. Way too many people here seem to be doing just that.

[Baikonour]

387. Kids will find a reason to ridicule one another..

Regardless of school policy.

If a child's parent truly cannot afford lunch for their child, the child has one of two options:

1. Starve
2. Be ridiculed.

You're allowing them one option, to starve, which is no different than "allowing" them to be ridiculed.

Now, if a child's parent is too much of a deadbeat to pack the child lunch or give them money, then this becomes a much larger issue, and one that does not involve the school at all.

[mbperrin]

454. All I needed to know, either. I've taught 30 years in public school

in West Texas, and I agree with madfloridian that shaming and ridiculing a child simply are not part of education, yet happens all the time.

I swear some would advocate making some kids wear stars on their clothes and swear that they were so lucky to get stars when the other kids weren't!

Keep up the fight, madfloridian! There are some real child advocates on here, but it is disheartening to see here and in other forums how just plainly mean, cheap, cruel, and twisted some people are.

They feel the need to punish kids in retaliation against those who actually give them trouble in life.

That's a shame, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. You do know that many of these schools (all in fact)

receive FEDERAL MONEY for the lunch programs

You also realize these programs were started to help with poverty and propper nutrition

Perhaps we as a society, should stop food stamps and other safety net programs too

:sarcasm:

Would that be better?

We should argue about whether those funds received by the schools are properly used in cheese sandwitch policies or not

I dare to say not. Makimg them takes time, and anybody who's been in an industrial kitchen knowns Mac and cheese for 1000 kids takes just as long as making twenty sandwiches

So stuff it

[TahitiNut]

111. Maybe the students with grades below "C" should get the cheese sandwiches??

:eyes:

Making a child 'responsible' (bearing the burden) for the parents' inability to pay is teaching codependency. As a fellow who, as a child, was made to feel responsible for a parent's shortcomings, I can guarantee you that's NOT a good idea.

[varelse]

351. Making a child 'responsible' ...for the parents' inability to pay is teaching code

An excellent point which hadn't occurred to me until now. :thumbsup:

[nichomachus]

141. And children learn much better when they're not starving

so you can consider lunch part of the educational process.

[demokatgurrl]

149. For some kids a school-provided meal is their ONLY

nutritious meal of the day. I believe it is the government's DUTY to provide food for poor children. They grow up to be adults. Do we want uneducated, angry, unhealthy adults? Or those who were able to remain conscious enough in school to manage to graduate and contribute to society?

[zeemike]

279. I proposed a plan to do just that

In a post earlier today.
A plan that would ensure at least one nutritious meal a day for school kids would help millions and would cost so little in comparison to the problems that come from kids being hungry at school.

[peacetalksforall]

158. My Lord, can't you see that you go to the parents before you bring their kids into it?

You solve the problem before you hurt the kids, not after.

It's a very simple path to take.

[Bake]

161. Hungry kids can't learn.

It's just that simple.

Bake

[Thothmes]

489. A cheese sandwich, banana and 1/2 pint of milk will fill ones belly

[RaleighNCDUer]

194. You really think the kids parent(s) need to be told that they are broke?

I think they are probably already aware of it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

270. If they are too broke to feed kids, yet have too much income to qualify for reduced price lunch...

... then their priorities are fucked up. Feed the kids first.

[ehrnst]

211. However....

<< If the kid is upset in any measurable way by having to eat a cheese sandwich, then I'm sure he will report home to his/her parents. >>

First: humiliation is not an educational tool, and should not be institutionalized at a pubic school. There is no justification, financial or otherwise for the "cheese sandwich" tactic.

<<Would you rather the school just STOP feeding a child who has a delinquent lunch fee? <-- That would be an outrage Cheese sandwich. Feeds the kid, sends parents a message. >>

You have no idea what some kids are facing at home. Some disadvantaged homes have major stress issues, and I knew kids that were scared to tell their parents that they were sick, for fear of adding to it. Those kids would likely not tell their parents if the school cut off their lunch.

It is *not the job of the child* to take care of this issue - and the school should not be involving the child in this.

Some kids are truly on their own in many ways in these families. Dealing with the parents directly is the appropriate course of action. The child is not the wage earner. Or at least should not be.

My mother's father was an alcoholic. My mom scraped together her own lunch out of what was in the fridge, and bought her own clothes and school supplies with babysitting money from the time that she was 12. She did this so no one would know about her home life, and asking her father for money was a sure way to get hit.

Does this open a window for you? Sometimes, 'inclination' is not the issue.

[zeemike]

282. Welcome to DU

You jumped right in on this hot topic...good for you.

[fedupwithbush]

361. Yes, you hit some high points in my school years.

But don't expect me to ask my children to mimick them. They know we have the money to pay for their lunch. As do the students I've been talking about.

I myself went without lunch a lot because I was a free student in a time when the lunch cards were color coded to tell what you were. I chose not to eat so others wouldn't know. I got a job in the school cafeteria that paid my free lunch AND paid me a small amount. It included getting to work after school as a janitor or custodian and for 40 hours a week in the summer.

Don't presume to know what every poor child will or won't do in any circumstance.

The thing that saved me was a few good teachers that said things that made sense and were kind to me even though they knew I was poor. They encouraged me to to do more if I could. They encouraged me by making me see another way of life. They made me THINK!

A cheese sandwich wouldn't have done that.

I went without meals a lot. A lot of times those meals I did have were beans. They were cheap then (bought any lately!).

As I said earlier, this cheese sandwich stuff is so much more complicated. But my bottom line in working in a lunchroom and being a parent is the kids getting the cheese sandwiches are NOT the low income or reduced students. It is the students whose parents still have the money to pay according to the income guidelines we have.

I only wish I'd had the choices the free and reduced have now. I'd have been well fed!

[ehrnst]

452. "Don't presume to know what every poor child will or won't do in any circumstance."

Which is exactly why assuming humilating the student will cause the student to go to their parents to solve the situation.

""The thing that saved me was a few good teachers that said things that made sense and were kind to me even though they knew I was poor. They encouraged me to to do more if I could. They encouraged me by making me see another way of life. They made me THINK!""

As did my mother. Too bad the teacher in the OP was chastised for caring and trying to make a difference.

[IdaBriggs]

219. We feed children so they don't cost us money later because

they are physically unhealthy/unable to serve this country in the event of a war where we need to call them to service.

Any added bonus money from parents is gravy. If they can't afford to feed their children, we do it for them in the name of the greater good.

[tblue37]

226. Children need food. That's a simple fact. Their

growing bodies and brains need food more frequently than they will when they have finished growing. If the parents can't afford to pay for the lunches or even to pack a lunch--and this is, you realize, a real possibility for some--then the child still needs to eat.

Why don't the parents work something out with the school? Well, maybe they are also too embarrassed to face a disapproving bureaucrat. In the same way that someone who has no money to pay his/her bills might put them to the side when they come in rather than trying to call the utility companies or the credit card companies to work something out, because denial and avoidance are very natural human responses, so too might some parents simply put aside the notices about delinquent lunch funds and not let themselves think about them when they come in.

I expect see more compassion on DU.

Bottom line--children need food. It should be provided in a way that does not embarrass the child as a way to "send a message" to the parents.

[noiretextatique]

303. all lunches should be free

that will eliminate the sadistic desire to punish poor children.

[KamaAina]

353. Fine. Go ahead and study while your stomach's growling.

Why do you think college dorm rooms and frat houses are littered with pizza boxes?

[pokercat999]

357. I'm overwhelmed by your compassion.

WHERE THE FUCK ARE OUR MINDS?

Even notice how some of us have a natural (or is it learned) inclination to ALWAYS go for the negative? For instance, wages in the US are high compared to the rest of the world so multi-national and "American" corporations send jobs overseas causing hardships in the US. The solution for the negative, pro-corp, pro-RETHUG person is to lower wages in the US. The progressive person on the other hand thinks of ways to increase wages for the rest of the world's workers with the goal of leveling the playing field.

Same thing here instead of; "Would you rather the school just STOP feeding a child who has a delinquent lunch fee?" How about "lunch should be FREE to all childern....we can and will afford it!"

Oh yeah, school supplies shouldn't be an option either.

Where the fuck are our minds? I just got my taxes paper work back from the accountant, with state, local, and federal, taxes and fees we spend close to 40% of our income on taxes and gov't fees including sales taxes and such, I DON"T MIND THE MONEY, it's the value I receive in return for that money that pisses me off. Killing brown people all over the world, helping corporations pollute the planet, criminalizing innocent behavior that has no impact on anyone else (except it's criminality) locking-up more citizens than any other dictatorship in the world, deigning basic rights to our citizens, marriage, health care, etc. and oh yeah.....not giving our kids decent school supplies including a laptop (books? in the 21st century) and a free lunch when we could well afford it.

I gotta ask again WHERE THE FUCK ARE OUR MINDS?

[Two Americas]

432. good post

Thanks. You make an important point and you make it well.

[pokercat999]

448. Thank you, it's so easy to get caught-up in the "they/we have

too much" crap. It may be true when applied to toys and trinkets but not when it's about, education, health-care or the other necessities of life.

[Jamastiene]

368. There are in school long enough that they need breaks and need to be fed.

Even workers have more rights than to go all day with no breaks and no food. Think about what you are proposing.

[Two Americas]

441. of course

And school attendance is mandatory for the children. They have no choice but to be there. The children are not responsible for whatever their parents do or don't do. When the children are in the care of the school, the people running the school have a responsibility, as well as a moral duty, to see to it that the children are cared for. Throwing blame back on the parents, or using the children to coerce the parents, represents a descent into the very depths of moral depravity. Yet we have people right here aggressively and angrily defending this.

[booley]

449. Hungry Kids don't learn

I know , I am such a bleeding heart. But gee, I cant' help but think there' sa connection between nutrition and doing well in school.

I think you also making a fallacious argument known as excluded middle.

Why choose between humiliating kids and not feeding them? Why not make lunches part of the school expenses?

[LWolf]

476. Hunger affects learning.

As do stress levels.

These are facts.

Schools who want children to learn have a vested interest in making sure that they are not hungry.

We can't address all the things that provide excess stress in their lives.

But we can feed them, and they will learn more when we do.

If you don't want schools addressing that issue, then I hope that you support doing whatever is necessary outside the education system to abolish poverty entirely.

[madfloridian]

7. Whatever makes conservatives happy.

Whatever.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[atreides1]

21. Your name

Is obviously descriptive of your self. What if the parents can't afford it, do they send them to school without food. Is that your answer, having children go hungry?

I bet you pull wings off flies too?

[Hello_Kitty]

47. It's probably descriptive of what the food safety policies he prefers would lead to.

Maybe "Salmonella" was already taken as a DU name? :shrug:

[noiretextatique]

305. isn't sad and disgusting to see adults advocating not feeding children?

or humiliating them before they get to eat?

[Two Americas]

429. it is very disturbing

People put a lot of time and effort into it, too, coming up with convoluted rationalizations and justifications.

Arguing with them is like trying to convince them that water is wet. Either they are so caught up in their own anger and hatred that they actually cannot see the plain truth, or they know the truth but want to confuse and distract people to advance an agenda.

[Jamastiene]

370. They probably pull the wings off the prettiest birds.

They probably leave the flies alone.

[Cleita]

300. Aye, I can't believe I'm reading this mean spirited post on DU!

I guess the children should just suck it up and starve if mom and dad don't have the money to pay for lunches because they had to pay for some other necessity like rent instead.

[Bluebear]

322. You're the salt of the earth, ain't ya?

[Jamastiene]

365. Why not feed all of the kids the same thing?

What you are proposing would still single out poor kids who may not be able to afford it.

[ekwhite]

416. Deleted - duplicate post N/T

[ekwhite]

418. And Decrease the Surplus Population?

“At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge,” said the gentleman, taking up a pen, “it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.”

“Are there no prisons?” asked Scrooge.

“Plenty of prisons,” said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

“And the Union workhouses?” demanded Scrooge. “Are they still in operation?”

“They are. Still,” returned the gentleman, “I wish I could say they were not.”

“The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?” said Scrooge.

“Both very busy, sir.”

“Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,” said Scrooge. “I’m very glad to hear it.”

“Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,” returned the gentleman, “a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?”

“Nothing!” Scrooge replied.

“You wish to be anonymous?”

“I wish to be left alone,” said Scrooge. “Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned – they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.”

“Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.”

“If they would rather die,” said Scrooge, “they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides – excuse me – I don’t know that.”

“But you might know it,” observed the gentleman.

“It’s not my business,” Scrooge returned. “It’s enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people’s. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!”

Seeing clearly that it would be useless to pursue their point, the gentlemen withdrew. Scrooge returned his labours with an improved opinion of himself, and in a more facetious temper than was usual with him.

[JDPriestly]

419. Mad Cow, you have got to be kidding.

You know, the real reason we started the school lunch programs was to provide a market for the surplus food we were producing. It was a way of keeping the prices for produce high enough to make producing food worthwhile for the farmers. The school lunch program proved to be extremely good for the children. Children should eat a cooked, well balanced meal for lunch. They are growing, and they need healthy, nutritious food -- especially vegetables and protein. School lunches are extremely important.

That children eat junk food at lunch nowadays is one of the reasons that so many of them are obese.

[JTFrog]

455. Feed the kids. Do away with conservative fucktards instead.

There is at least a chance that the kids will turn out to be a value to our society.

[Donnachaidh]

6. but but but -- then we have the *suck it up up coz *I* did posts

How low we've sunk when we think it's OKAY to embarrass a child because someone else ate the same thing decades before. :eyes:

[G_j]

9. thank you

Rs, as a rule, are mean-spirited, but I certainly see that here too.

The punitive message behind whole sandwich thing, should be obvious.

[madfloridian]

11. Yes, it is going on here at DU....there is mean-spiritedness around.

It's our legacy from the Bush years.

[MessiahRp]

313. And in general this is the problem with the whole big tent shit...

We keep getting more and more Republicans embarrassed by their party affiliation that would come over and force their "values" onto a Democratic forum.

BTW, my son's school does this only with plain Peanut Butter sandwiches. The principal is a loudmouth control freak who runs down the children who don't have the money to keep up with lunch (most of the time it's because we the parents are not given notices when their lunch money funds are running low) and then in instances when she talks to us the parents she does as if we are children as well. If I was a woman I would have slugged this woman by now.

I think also people have to recognize that just as they are with any public assistance the income levels you must meet are pretty low. They go by gross income and do not take into account rent or other bills and how that will affect you. To those who think it's laziness that is excluding these parents and kids I say, either you are doing really well right now or have never filled out one of those forms for a child yourself.

Rp

[Horse with no Name]

463. It was that surge we had here a few years back

you know, the ones who don't believe in impeachment, think TARP was a good idea, think TASERS are snazzy...et al...
It makes me vomit.
Now, they want to ridicule children.
School is tough enough when the kids who have more gang up on the ones who have less...but it is downright infuriating when the adults gang up on them too.
And people wonder what sparks kids to pull a Columbine.
Keep treating them like this...and we'll see more of that.
If a school is working that diligently to make sure a kid KNOWS he aint got nothing--it certainly won't take long for him to learn that he aint got nothing TO LOSE either.

[hlthe2b]

10. It is NOT acceptable to me.

[hamsterjill]

147. It is NOT acceptable to me either!

The act of taking a child out of line and publicly making that child feel different from the rest is NOT acceptable. That serves nothing more than the make that child feel self-conscious and humiliated.

Like the original poster says, the meals are prepared in large enough quantities, and it's not like there isn't food left over after the lunch room lines are gone. Leftovers are either thrown away or taken home by the kitchen staff.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. What A Bunch Of Hogwash.

It's a perfectly fine policy that makes tons of fucking sense.

If the parents can't pay for the lunch why should they get the same lunches as the kids of parents who do? The simple fact of the matter is that the kids are being taken care of and given nutritious meals. I swear to god the zealotry is so fucking much sometimes. Jesus christ.

How bout we just base our society completely on socialism to avoid anyone's hurt fucking feelings.

Hey, you're getting dropped off in a 10 year old clunker. FUCK THAT! That embarrasses the kid! How dare some other child get to step out of a 2008 Trailblazer. That's just not right! It's too obvious the other child is in a family that doesn't have as much money. Heaven's to Betsy that's just unacceptable!

Hey, that kid's wearing a polo shirt! THAT'S FUCKING ATROCIOUS! Won't some other kid have his feelings hurt by embarrassment that he comes in wearing a generic brand? WE JUST CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!

Fuck it. Let's satisfy the zealots! From now on I hereby declare to our society: EVERYBODY HAS TO WEAR THE SAME CLOTHES. EVERYBODY HAS TO DRIVE THE SAME CAR. EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNT. SOCIALISM RAWKS!!!!!!!1111111

:eyes:

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[G_j]

16. you worked in the school system also?

like the person who wrote the OP?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

Irrelevant.

[Ikonoklast]

121. Is that your first or last name?

You dismiss the experience of others, but use your own to validate yourself.

How very right of you.

[Bluerthanblue]

171. NO OMC- this it is completely relevant!- you might want to

step back and try and find out just what you are really so angry about.

Madfloridian is speaking from the position of one who has witnessed this firsthand.

You have personal experiences that others don't- which give you insight into aspects of life that can only be fully understood through experience. What it is like to cope with helping children grieve a parent, for example.

Having people in positions of authority who are sensitive to the stigma that kids are faced with is ALWAYS a good thing. IMO-

Kids don't ask to be born, and have no say in the social class they are born into, or the choices their parents or guardians make which can really impact their lives.

How about a little compassion and empathy for each other? Is that too much to ask?

I wish you well my friend.

:grouphug:

[orleans]

206. what if you forgot to send your kids with their lunch a couple times?

or forgot to pay the school for their lunches on time?

and it just happened to be on those couple of days where your kids didn't really have time to eat their breakfast.

maybe the school let your kids call you and give you a chance to drop off their lunches--but you couldn't get away from the office, and the friend you depend on for shit like this was out of town.

you ok with the school not helping out your kids just because the school thinks your an asshole for fucking up?

ON EDIT: THIS POST IS NOT NOT NOT FOR THE "ORIGINAL MESSAGE"
IT IS FOR
OPERATIONMINDCRIME (1000+ posts) Fri Feb-27-09 11:03 AM
Original message
Irrelevant.
BUT HIS POST DID NOT HAVE A NUMBER AND WHEN I WENT TO REPLY TO HIM, IT SENT THE OP MY POST.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THE OP!

[wryter2000]

290. Well done

But, honestly...why it happens is beside the point. The child should not be punished for what their parents have done or not done. And certainly, they shouldn't be punished publicly and humiliated.

[TwilightGardener]

294. I have forgotten. Many parents do. How long is a school supposed to

keep giving kids free hot lunches, to students who aren't enrolled in the free-lunch program, if their parents continue to NOT pay the bill, and continue to NOT provide a sack lunch from home? What is the school's recourse? What else can they do? The kids don't get a cheese sandwich the first day--or the second day. They get it usually when the account is in the red for at least a few days or a week. What if more and more parents realized that there's absolutely no consequences to keeping up a school lunch account--what's the incentive to pay, if your kid gets free hot lunches WITHOUT your having to pay or fill out some paperwork? How is that fair to all the other parents who keep their accounts current, and pay full price, or bother to enroll in the free/reduced program, or spend their mornings making PBJ's for brown bags?

[BrightKnight]

349. between the parent and the bill collector and or parent and child protective services

It should be between the parent and the bill collector or the parent and child protective services. If a parent is capable and they do not provide for their child the authorities be involved. Perhaps they could garnish wages like they do with child support. Punishing the child is not the way to handle this problem.

[Two Americas]

435. WTF?

Pay up or we'll hurt your kid?

Good grief.

Let's say the parents are the awful deadbeat lazy irresponsible people you seem to enjoy portraying them as being.

That is all the more reason to look after their kids and not punish them.

Unless you advocate some sort of survival of the fittest wild west social Darwinism doctrine.

[TwilightGardener]

461. The kid is getting fed. It may not be what he wants, or what the other kids

get, but as long as his belly is filled with something decent (and a sandwich, fruit and drink is certainly decent), he's not being punished. If children were left to go hungry, then I would be angry. And that does happen in some school districts.

[Two Americas]

481. can you hear yourself?

"Quit your complaining, you poor children. You are lucky you are getting anything."

[mbperrin]

456. Sometimes parent contact is not so great. My first year of teaching,

I had a student who just could not sit down. He got up and wandered around the room. He didn't talk, he didn't make a lot of noise, he just would not sit still.

So I followed our district policy, which is to call the parent first before asking a principal for help. There was no home phone, so I called the work number and got dad.

Told him the problem, and he assured me he would "take care of it." Kid came back to school three days later with a broken wrist, left eye bandaged over, and a "bruise" that covered the entire

left side of his face, part of his neck, and as far down his shirt as you could see.

Then I did what I should have done in the first place - I let him hand out papers, sharpen pencils for the class, take the roll to the office, and let him work off some of that nervous energy.
Wasn't really a problem at all. I got a child beaten to hell, and I still feel guilt to this day. I'm the one with the master's degree, after all.

I have never initiated a parent contact since. Any contact I have, they start. Because there really are some mean psychotic bastards out there who will use any reason (or none) to
punish and injure a child, all in the name of "discipline" or "showing" them something or doing them some good.

I can assure you that not all parents are responsible, nice, or in any way wanting to contribute to their child's well-being, and punishing a child for their parents' shortcomings
is no different than cutting the hands off family members to get more diamond production for King Leopold in the Congo.

[TwilightGardener]

462. A free cheese sandwich, fruit, and milk is not and will never constitute abuse.

This topic is veering off the cliff of sanity and common sense.

[Horse with no Name]

465. Truly...does it really matter? Is fairness REALLY an issue? Why is it?

If you want to be punitive--hold their report cards until the parent cleans up the mess.
But as it has been pointed out before, institutional cooking is much cheaper than making individual sandwiches--but then nobody gets a chance to pick on the poor kids. Where is the fun in that?
We are talking about HUNGRY CHILDREN wanting a hot meal and receiving a cold stale sandwich.
Ummm Yummy.:puke:

[TwilightGardener]

466. Poor kids get free lunch, as has been pointed out here many, many times--free HOT lunch.

Kids whose parents are of means to pay DON'T get free hot lunch--not after a week or so. And a "stale" sandwich--you're simply embellishing. I suppose I should feel bad for sending my son to his school field trip yesterday with just a "cold" sandwich of PBJ--poor abused child. edit to add: if a parent doesn't give a shit what his child eats at school, doesn't give a shit about arranging payment or filling out forms, that same parent isn't going to give a shit about the kid's grades or report cards. Silly.

[Ms. Toad]

398. In the school that is being complained about,

the first ten times it happens, your child still gets the regular lunch for free. If it is day 11, your child is still given a nutritious meal for free.

[Two Americas]

440. oh, ok

So as long as people are warned, it is OK to mistreat their children.

[Ms. Toad]

472. Feeding children a nutritious meal even when they don't

have the money to pay for it is not mistreating them.

Using money the school could otherwise use to retain or hire 2-4 teachers (the amount of money involved in this particular school district) to provide a more attractive (but not necessarily more nutritious) lunch to students whose parents have not paid (either from their own pocket or from the government's pocket) is mistreating all of the children in the district. When money is available to fund the lunch program (either from parents' pockets or from the governments' pockets), it is inappropriate to take money from all students education to pay for lunch for those who repeatedly forget their lunch money, choose to spend it on something else, or haven't filled out the forms despite repeated opportunities to do so (a reminder last fall, daily phone calls, and a note a week from the first week of school through the day they implemented the program).

If a district has enough money to pay for a lunch program for all students on top of providing a well-rounded and quality educaton, I don't have a problem with it choosing to spend their money that way - what I have a problem with is the outrage over the choice the district has made that it will use local taxpayer money to fund education for all students rather than to continue to funnel it to students whose parents, for a variety of reasons - not all of them inability pay - have racked up massive school lunch debt - particularly when the announcement was made in the fall that the program would be implemented - the same time the free/reduced lunch forms were handed out to everyone, was well publicized nationally a month before it was initiated (that's when the first threads appeared on DU), and attempts have been made to reach the families of the impacted students (at least daily phone calls, and weekly notes home).

In my daughter's district the meal for those who don't pay is peanut butter crackers (which have little nutritional value), the same thing the gave my daughter when she was allergic to an ingredient they used, on the average, 4 days a week. Although she was singled out in the same manner as those who didn't pay, I don't consider that mistreatment. I would have been thrilled if she had been given a cheese sandwich - a far more nutritious substitute than peanut butter crackers.

[Two Americas]

487. of course it can be

"Man does not live by bread alone."

Just because the children are getting food that does not mean that they are not being mistreated. No one claims that feeding the children is in and of itself mistreating them - where dod someone say that, and if they did not whom are you responding to?

This "we feed you so what else do you want" attitude is the problem. We are talking about punishing the children for the actions of their parents - that is morally wrong, and completely contrary to the very concept of public service as well as to every principle and ideal we supposedly stand for as Democrats. You don't deny that, you justify it, you defend it.

You are arguing the right wing point of view on this. There will always be some who do, but please do not try to claim that it is any way compatible with being a Democrat.

I don't care what the parents did or did not do, nor should any decent and compassionate human being care.

Sorry - I am going to draw the line. We have millions of children in poverty, and letting the camel get its nose in the tent, in the form of these authoritarian and callous right wing and free market arguments, is where the battle lones mnust be of we are ever to turn this mightmare around. When we tolerate these attitudes, little by little by little our society is destroyed from within. The right wing talking points are termites eating away at the foundation of our society. Enough!

This far, and no farther. Enough is enough, and I think we all need to start drawing the line on this and taking a stand and fighting back.

[Heidi]

24. I hope your children are never in the position of you not being able to pay for their lunches.

If you don't think kids are made fun of and ostracized over stuff like this, you're absolutely mistaken.

And your "SOCIALISM RAWKS!!!!11111" bullshit doesn't wash. This is about making children feel lesser because their parents can't or won't pay for their lunches. If you think that's okay, then you're part of the problem.

[KittyWampus]

46. If you can't pay for lunches FILL OUT THE DAMNED FORMS FOR FREE LUNCH.

[Raineyb]

104. The news story that was linked to in the other thread about this story

stated that the children were being served the cheese sandwiches while they were waiting for the paperwork to go through. So apparently, filling out the damned forms for free lunch doesn't protect you from this shaming practice.

But why let a little detail like that get in the way? :shrug:

Regards

[bigmonkey]

192. Extorting "proper behavior" from the parents

by humiliating the children. Why not put the kids in the stocks, stop this namby-pamby stuff? Fill out your forms, or it's the stocks for your kids until you do.

:sarcasm:

[tblue37]

238. No, no, no--public flogging would be so much more

effective--and kids are easy to flog, since they don't usually have the size or strength to flog back!

(Do I need to add the sarcasm tag?)

[rpannier]

334. A Big Scarlet "L" on their shirt

[wryter2000]

291. If the school has a problem with the parents

They should take it up with the parents.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. But Only Lunch Right?

I mean, they don't get ostracized if their clothes look cheaper? If their parents' cars are poorer? If their houses are much smaller? I mean, it's only over their lunches right?

:eyes:

:dunce:

[I Have A Dream]

120. Speaking as someone who grew up poor...

in my opinion, the issue really is that you got something for free. In our society, having the government give you anything is really viewed negatively. While I was going to school, nobody ever put anyone down for being poor, but they definitely looked down their noses at students who got free lunch. Very sad. :(

[Cid_B]

201. TANSTAFL

There aint no such thing as free lunch... which is the way it should be.

A finer philosophy has yet to be so perfectly written.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

242. What about free education?

Is the existence of such a thing as public schools a bad thing?

[Starry Messenger]

354. Mr. Libertarian Heinlein's favorite saying.

Too bad it only works out in fiction.

[tbyg52]

358. Oh good grief - seeing that quoted on this thread

makes me ashamed to be a Heinlein fan. Well, not really, but you get my drift.

Not everything he said in his fiction has to be translated into real life. He said himself that his aim was to raise questions.

I'm sure he would want children to be fed. I submit as evidence something he actually *did* (not just wrote about) which was being an avid blood donor and advocate of same. Oh, and he was also known as a soft touch if an acquaintance fell on hard times.

Have you read his very first novel, the one that was recently published posthumously? It depicts a society where everyone has a basic income automatically, and people earn additional money doing what they *like* to do.

I'm of the opinion that you can "prove" just about anything from Heinlein, same as the Bible. But I certainly think it's unfeeling, to put it mildly, to quote TANSTAAFL on this thread.

For a defense of Heinlein, not that one is needed, please see:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5147100&mesg_id=5147100

[Cid_B]

405. Just to be clear...

Look at post 120.

The students who took the free handout ended up paying another way than monetarily. That is what I think the meaning of TANSTAFL is. You always pay for it one way or another.

The quote isn't "There SHOULDNT be no such thing as a free lunch". It doesn't exist and everyone ends up paying with time or pride or self respect or something.

[I Have A Dream]

469. Yes, even though I was poor, I never took the free lunch.

I just chose not to eat. My heart broke for the ridicule that the others experienced.

These threads are breaking my heart all over again. :cry:

[tbyg52]

490. I think it was the "as it should be" that set me off.

TANSTAAFL is the way it *is*, in the last analysis. It's like saying the sun rises in the east. But some people (not you, apparently...! :hi: ) use it as an excuse to be selfish.

Oops, read your post a little more closely. There was *no* reason for those children to pay in pride. None. Their parents, maybe. The kids, I don't think so. I revert to my originally prepared position that you are misusing TANSTAAFL.

On a somewhat related note (or maybe not - you be the judge... ;) ), I'd also like to point out that in "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress" (the origin of TANSTAAFL), Mannie says he carries no medical insurance because he is "young and healthy" and doesn't feel he needs it.

That is stupid on so many levels - either on the character's part or on Heinlein's, depending on whether Heinlein was articulating his own philosophy, which I tend to doubt in this case.

Now if Mannie had said that he didn't need it because his family was so large and wealthy that it could self-insure (which it may well have been), *that* would have made sense.

[Two Americas]

380. pure libertarianism

The people espousing this "philosophy" are usually the ones getting the biggest free lunches. But they want us to believe they did it all themselves, and if they were alone on a desert island they would be bigshots and just as happy and successful.

The libertarians are the biggest mooches of all, and they are dishonest as well because they ignore or deny all of the ways that they themselves have benefited from a cooperative society. They love to lord it over everyone else - betraying a authoritarianism and a penchant for bullying that are what their "philosophy" is really all about.

Public highways, public safety and health inspections, weather forecasting, disaster response and relief, public schools, law enforcement and fire protection, the courts, EMS, water treatment, technology research, public libraries, copyright protection, corporate charters, communication infrastructure, farm credit, disease control, insured savings accounts, social security, forestry management, traffic control, weights and measures, national defense...

Those are but a few of the "free lunches" that you have benefited from. You are more than happy to take, but when it comes to giving back you fall back on your "philosophy." If you are well off enough to be able to take those benefits for granted - which is implicit in your statement - then it is very likely that you have benefited more than most.

I call bullshit on this "philosophy." I don't think it is a philosophy, or represents any critical thinking of any kind. I think it is an excuse to be an anti-social, authoritarian, selfish and bullying person and make it look like something else.

TANSTAFL - There Ain't Nothing So Trying As Free-loading Libertarians

...

[Cid_B]

407. I refer you to 405

also feel free to get off your high horse any time now. Everyone steps on each others head to be the first to tut tut anyone and as it turns out you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

[Two Americas]

412. high horse?

I am not even warmed up yet, and speaking out for principles and ideals is not a "high horse" except on the mind of the person embarrassed by that. I am not playing at being high minded for effect or to win an argument, I am expressing ideals that are in fact high minded. Those ideals are winning the argument, not I. I am their humble servant.

I thought I would take TR's advice per your sig line - "The unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided; but never hit softly."

There are, by the way, many, many "free lunches" in life. In fact, they are the rule. As an example, public education does not really "cost" anyone anything since it pays back infinitely more than it costs. This "cost analysis" approach implies one class doing the paying and another receiving the payments - of course, since it is an apology for the upper class. That is not how human societies work. Money, and costs, and payments are merely a method of supporting something much greater - cooperative, equitable and fair communities. They don't circumscribe human existence and certainly cannot be properly called anything like a "philosophy."

I read your qualification to your remarks, and remain unimpressed. You are making a distinction there between saying there should be no free lunch and saying that there is no free lunch. I fail to see the difference.

If you were not in fact expressing a libertarian point of view, as I described, then why not explain yourself? That would be easy enough to do, of it is true.

[Cid_B]

431. With that line you should run for office...

"I am not even warmed up yet, and speaking out for principles and ideals is not a "high horse" except on the mind of the person embarrassed by that. I am not playing at being high minded for effect or to win an argument, I am expressing ideals that are in fact high minded. Those ideals are winning the argument, not I. I am their humble servant."

Sheesh :eyes:

I'll try one more time as you seem to be slow on the uptake. The idea is that nothing is free in life. Education is paid for by property owners and in turn students, while not paying monetarily, don't become educated by just showing up. The payment for the education is the work that they put into it and eventually when they leave they in turn will pay their taxes to support their child's school. Everyone pays somehow someway.

This is BS as well by the way:

"In fact, they are the rule. As an example, public education does not really "cost" anyone anything since it pays back infinitely more than it costs."

If I go out and buy an apple at the market for 5 cents and go outside and sell it for 10 cents the apple still cost me 5 cents.

"This "cost analysis" approach implies one class doing the paying and another receiving the payments - of course, since it is an apology for the upper class."

The point, as you obtusely try to ignore, is that everyone pays somehow someway. Everyone, upper, lower, middle, upper lower middle.. you name it. The payment is not always money. It can be time, self respect, being made fun of, lost opportunity to pursue something else.

"I read your qualification to your remarks, and remain unimpressed. You are making a distinction there between saying there should be no free lunch and saying that there is no free lunch. I fail to see the difference."

Well thank God I don't worry about impressing you. The point, as stated before, is that there really is NO SUCH THING as a free lunch. As in, it doesn't exist.

[Two Americas]

438. I disagree

You are arguing for a market paradigm as a social organizing principle, as the prime organizing principle. Mankind survived through most of time and in most places without this cost and payment framework for defining human interaction.

Certainly everything can be reduced to a payment transaction, but you have to start with that as an assumption, it doesn't prove that assumption.

Public education is not at all analogous to your apple example, which is a purely commercial transaction. There is no profit in education, there is no market - nor should there be in my view - and forcing that concept onto education would destroy it. Or perhaps you favor privatizing schools, and only teaching that which helps a person turn a profit on the market?

If you insist on seeing everything about human society and human interactions as reducible to being the same as buying and selling an apple, then yes you will see everything that way. But societies can and have existed without any of that going on, and that is true mostly even in our own heavily commercialized society.

You are claiming that life us a market, bit have not proven that. what you are arguing for is not that life is a market, but rather that it should be. I am disagreeing with that position you are arguing.

[Horse with no Name]

467. I remember the kids who got free lunches too

they had different colored tickets (same thing really) and they couldn't get seconds. Only the paying kids could get seconds(go figure the ones who REALLY needed it didn't have access to it).
The kids ridiculed the free lunch cardholders.
Our school was even more "progressive". If you didn't qualify for free lunches and your parents couldn't afford to send lunch money, they LET you work in the cafeteria--scraping the plates of your classmates while wearing a hairnet and missing your lunch recess so you could finish washing the dishes.
Wasn't THAT lovely?
I had hard times when my kids were younger but NEVER once did I allow my kids to receive free lunches because of the ostracism I saw firsthand. Whatever else I had to not pay--school lunches were paid so that their cards were the same color as everyone elses.

[Heidi]

135. Cars, clothing and homes aren't nearly as obvious as sitting down with a cheese sandwich

while one's peers are eating whatever crap the cafeteria is serving. Further, there's the consideration that kids dress the way they wanna dress these days; it's not necessarily a matter of money. To this, I can attest. I grew up in a school district where more than 75 percent of the kids were on free lunches and were shamed for it. That you, one of my favorite DUers, finds this acceptable is absolutely shocking to me.

And let me say this, since I'm on a roll, you can post the :dunce: thing a million times. Makes no difference to me. I'd go toe-to-toe with you intellectually _any_ day of the week, bubba.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

202. Ahem.

"I'd go toe-to-toe with you intellectually _any_ day of the week, bubba."

And you'd lose...

...handily.

[orleans]

213. if you're so smart then how come you think it's okay for adults to

make kids feel like shit about anything?

[Leftist Agitator]

310. .

And you'd lose...

...handily.

:sarcasm:

[Reterr]

379. Oh ffs, you have the intellect of the average dittohead

Stop talking about intellect. You sound like a moron every time you post. You don't sound intelligent or educated :eyes:. You just sound like another dittohead who thinks pompousness and complete self-satisfaction equate to intelligence and knowledge. Fucking moronic douchebag.

[tabasco]

393. Hahahahahahahaha!!

Says the faux internet tough guy who brags about his brazen littering. LOL.

You are a fool. It is usually fools who brag about their intellectual prowess.

[ekwhite]

427. You have quite a high opinion of yourself

You seem to be a legend in your own mind.

[Leftist Agitator]

181. But Only Lunch Right?

I mean, they don't get ostracized if their clothes look cheaper? If their parents' cars are poorer? If their houses are much smaller? I mean, it's only over their lunches right?

:sarcasm:

[orleans]

212. who "shames" the kids for that crap? the lunch staff? the teachers?

or the other kids.

[tblue37]

239. But the "authorities" in the school are not calling the child out

and publicly humiliating him on purpose for not having expensive clothes or a car.

[unapatriciated]

409. sadly yes, so why would you want to add one more thing to hurt?

[ekwhite]

426. You have obviously never been poor N/T

[ipfilter]

25. Um, school lunches are socialism.

The amount paid by the parent is only part of the cost. The government subsidizes the rest. Do you really think a school lunch only cost ~$2.50 to produce?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

43. Holy Missed The Point.

:dunce:

[ipfilter]

52. What point did I miss and why the dunce hat?

"How bout we just base our society completely on socialism to avoid anyone's hurt fucking feelings."

Maybe I missed the sarcasm tag. Your implying perhaps we should make school lunches socialism and I'm saying school lunches are already socialism.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. Complete Socialism. As In Everything The Same For Everybody!

Same lunches, same clothes, same houses, same cars. Yay!!!!!!

The dunce hat is for your failure to understand such an easy to understand point that was made in my post.

[ipfilter]

81. Ok, one more time.

School lunches are already socialism. The cost of the food is heavily subsidized by the government. My wife was instructed to throw away food when the lunch period was over. She threw out food every single day. It makes no sense to give a kid a cheese sandwich when a good portion of the hot lunch was paid for with public funds and, in all likelihood, some leftovers are getting thrown out anyway.

My wife and her coworkers were well within their right to refuse to serve kids with delinquent balances, but they never did because it would be cruel.

[Leftist Agitator]

187. Complete Socialism. As In Everything The Same For Everybody!

Same lunches, same clothes, same houses, same cars. Yay!!!!!!

The dunce hat is for your failure to understand such an easy to understand point that was made in my post.

:sarcasm:

[BrightKnight]

382. As long as the children are properly fed I don't care what anyone calls it.

It is possible to reach the same conclusions from a right wing perspective.

[ekwhite]

430. Easy to understand, yes

But totally wrong, mean-spirited and ill-informed.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

175. He's just throwing feces around.

As always.

No point arguing.

[Ikonoklast]

123. 'Holy'?

:dunce:

[Leftist Agitator]

186. Holy Missed The Point.

:sarcasm:

[Demoiselle]

296. HOLY missed the point?

Why do I feel like I just landed in Freeperville. (Get a clue, Morans!)

[RetroLounge]

341. Wholly spelled wholly wrong

:dunce:

RL

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

468. Spelled It Exactly The Way I Wanted To.

Wholly cow.

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Havng worked in an industrial kitchen, yes

you have no clue what you talk about

At the University I worked at the low end lunch, and we had more variety than your school cafeteria, ran fifty cents in 1986

The USN can feed a sailor for a buck fifty

So yes, you can

That said, there is a federal subsidy for those kids that cannot afford it, since in this country we used to believe a full tummy was necessary for learning

By the way, you scarrrred of Socialism:? Don't call the FD, their response runs them far more than you pay in taxes... or the cops... yes virginia they get subsidies from the feds... how ahem, socialistic of us

[Lars39]

126. I wonder how many lunchroom programs have been privitized?

Can't have non-paying customers eating into the profit,eh?

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. I know that if I had kids in school I'd be screaming bloody murder

this cheese sandwich policy is meant to demean, and teach a "lesson" They have little to do with feeding

That said, I wonder as well...

Oh and the twenty or so cheese sandwiches cost the same to produce as a very large batch of mac and cheese, and feed less kids too

so cost saving money my dying ass

[krabigirl]

32. Actually, a bit more socialism in this effed up country WOULD "rawk"! "111"

[Lex]

36. Fox News rant material.

nt

[Hello_Kitty]

53. Truly Rick Santelli-worthy

"Why should I pay for some loser kid's lunch??"

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

55. Completely. Missed. The. Point.

The knee jerk responses are as intellectually empty as one would expect.

[Hello_Kitty]

73. As is your pomposity and arrogance.

I just love how people think that they win arguments by being condescending.

[Occulus]

82. OMC *regularly* does this

and I won't say what I think should have long since been done about it. Rules and all.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Occulus]

95. ^^ See what I mean? ^^

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

105. Again:

Do any of you actually have what it takes to offer rebuttal to my post, or is this empty headed attacking garbage all you have to offer? :shrug:

[peacetalksforall]

168. Why waste our time - shallow argument - brimming ever with disgust for most of us and

pomposity that is cruel.

[Leftist Agitator]

188. Again:

Do any of you actually have what it takes to offer rebuttal to my post, or is this empty headed attacking garbage all you have to offer?

:sarcasm:

[Two Americas]

488. right here

I am right here, OMC. I welcome the debate. It is you who runs and hides.

[madfloridian]

99. And I can't see it anymore.

By my choice. Yes, rules and all being broken often. :hi:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

190. HINT: you can't alert on ignored posters.

Although you can just block PMs and they're still alertable. Just saying.

[U4ikLefty]

385. I agree with what you won't say. I won't say it either...rules & all. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

84. You're Projecting.

There was no argument. In order for their to be an argument to win or lose, you would've had to, ya know, like actually responded with a rebuttal and stuff. You didn't. What YOU did was respond with nothing more than ad hominem empty condescending nonsense. So you might want to check yourself.

If you have something that actually contains a hint of intellect, substance and context in regards to rebutting the OP, I'm open to hearing it. :hi:

[Name removed]

288. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Leftist Agitator]

327. You're Projecting.

There was no argument. In order for their to be an argument to win or lose, you would've had to, ya know, like actually responded with a rebuttal and stuff. You didn't. What YOU did was respond with nothing more than ad hominem empty condescending nonsense. So you might want to check yourself.

If you have something that actually contains a hint of intellect, substance and context in regards to rebutting the OP, I'm open to hearing it.

:sarcasm:

[Leftist Agitator]

185. Completely. Missed. The. Point.

The knee jerk responses are as intellectually empty as one would expect.

:sarcasm:

[Two Americas]

483. I am right here

I am right here, and not going any place. I welcome a debate. You are the one who drops stink bombs on threads, provokes and insults everyone, and then cowardly runs away when I challenge your "points."

Anytime, anyplace, any subject - I am always ready to debate your "points" and I never bail or run away when the going gets tough. You scamper for cover like a frightened faun whenever you are challenged, and then re-appear to spread the same vile sentiments and right wing talking points - again and again and again.

And you have the nerve to accuse others of missing your point?

Anytime, my friend. I am right here. I will not only not miss your points, I will demolish them. Count on that. Time for you to nave the courage to stand in one place and defend your "points" or stop hurling them at people.

[Bill McBlueState]

40. Thanks, Exhibit A. n/t

[bread_and_roses]

42. We can't give kids lunch but it was OK to bail out banks with our billions?

That's some great sense of priorities. And your faux depiction of "socialism" is the utter hogwash.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

51. We Are Giving Them Lunch.

And again: Miss the point much?

[bread_and_roses]

184. Evade a response much? It's not I missing the point here (n/t)

[CreekDog]

400. It ain't a proper lunch

a cheese sandwich provides little nutrition.

[Two Americas]

482. who is this "we?"

Who is the "we" that is being benevolent toward "them?"

I don't think I have ever seen a working class Democrat so thoroughly identify with the wealthy and powerful, on every issue, and so viciously attack other Democrats and other working people.

[BurtWorm]

75. 'If the parents can't pay for the lunch why should they get the same lunches...'

It's not the parents who aren't getting the same lunches. It's the children of those parents.

You seem to be missing madfloridian's point that it saves no money to give these kids a different lunch. It costs money. The lunches are being used to blackmail parents into paying up. What is between the school system and the parent is being taken out on the children, by the school system. If the school system is hot for money, let them hire a collection agency. But they should keep the kids out of it.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

88. With All Due Respect, The Poster Is Not The Be All End All.

Let her prove that in all schools incorporating this policy, that it costs no additional money. Hell, let her prove it for her own. Otherwise, it is nothing more than hearsay garbage.

[Leftist Agitator]

183. With All Due Respect, The Poster Is Not The Be All End All.

Let her prove that in all schools incorporating this policy, that it costs no additional money. Hell, let her prove it for her own. Otherwise, it is nothing more than hearsay garbage.

:sarcasm:

[noiretextatique]

315. psst

:rofl:

[unapatriciated]

458. maybe you can understand this......

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=6422

Food for thought: Privatizing school lunches may impair learning

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Public schools that use private food services may not save much money. Worse yet, they may be hurting student performance, says a University of Michigan researcher.

A new study by Roland Zullo, assistant research scientist at the U-M Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations, suggests that schools in Michigan that use private companies to prepare and serve lunch and often breakfast to their students realize no significant cost savings.

While public schools that privatize their food operations save about 15 percent on labor and 4 percent on food, they end up spending 11 percent more on contractor fees and 4 percent more for supplies, Zullo says.

"If economic savings fail to materialize, then we would expect that districts with private food services would not gain additional classroom resources," said Zullo, who notes that districts with private food-service management have an average of 1.1 more children per teacher. "While I hesitate to conclude that privatization increases class sizes, the results do not indicate that privatizing food services liberates resources for the classroom."

More importantly, the study shows that private food service is associated with a reduction of 1 percent to 3 percent in scores on the Michigan Educational Assessment Program (MEAP tests for grades 3-9), after controlling for affluence, school resources and student traits. This is especially true for students in grades 3-5 and with the English, reading and writing tests.

The culprit? Private food services tend to serve more high-fat and high-sugar foods on their a la carte menu.....


Maybe we should revisit the privatization of our public schools food programs, since the only ones who seem to benefit are the private contractors. It sure as hell isn't benefiting our children.

Oh I forgot that's evil socialism.
Your not one of those contractors are you?

[jpak]

146. Cheese sandwich this

:puke:

:evilgrin:

[Leftist Agitator]

179. .

It's a perfectly fine policy that makes tons of fucking sense.

If the parents can't pay for the lunch why should they get the same lunches as the kids of parents who do? The simple fact of the matter is that the kids are being taken care of and given nutritious meals. I swear to god the zealotry is so fucking much sometimes. Jesus christ.

How bout we just base our society completely on socialism to avoid anyone's hurt fucking feelings.

Hey, you're getting dropped off in a 10 year old clunker. FUCK THAT! That embarrasses the kid! How dare some other child get to step out of a 2008 Trailblazer. That's just not right! It's too obvious the other child is in a family that doesn't have as much money. Heaven's to Betsy that's just unacceptable!

Hey, that kid's wearing a polo shirt! THAT'S FUCKING ATROCIOUS! Won't some other kid have his feelings hurt by embarrassment that he comes in wearing a generic brand? WE JUST CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!

Fuck it. Let's satisfy the zealots! From now on I hereby declare to our society: EVERYBODY HAS TO WEAR THE SAME CLOTHES. EVERYBODY HAS TO DRIVE THE SAME CAR. EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNT. SOCIALISM RAWKS!!!!!!!1111111

:sarcasm:

[slay]

205. How about socialism?

You know, the kind you were talkin bout in your thread that just got locked? Oh wait, so that was sarcasm huh? Actually I don't believe that everyone should make the same amount of money or drive the same cars. I understand most people are greedy and selfish and we need higher paying jobs like doctors to attract people to that job. However we, the people, ALLOW the rich bastards who exploit the planet, and us as workers, to do so - and in doing so they have a responsibility to provide a basic level of sustenance. I have no problem with a cheese sandwich - but would it hurt to grill it? And what about lactose intollerant kids?

Anyways, the gap between the rich and the poor due to worker exploitation is huge - way too huge - and needs to be seriously addressed. I have no problem with some people making more money than others, but lets not kid ourselves, they make that money through exploitation of resources be it the planet or people, and they OWE us for allowing them to do that. For some reason people are all fucked in the head thinking WE owe the rich bastards something. "Thank-you Mr. Rich Bastard for allowing me to work this crappy job for minimum wage and long hours where I hardly get to see my family at all and live paycheck to paycheck while you get even richer off mine and my fellow worker's labor until yall decide to get super greedy again and collapse the economy at which time I'm fucked and my kids will end up eating government cheese...sandwiches, but really, thanks!". Ugh. I think this is what alot of people are actually pissed off about in the great "cheese sandwich" debate and are they are using the cheese sandwich as a symbol of that. Or maybe it's just me. :rofl:

[ekwhite]

433. I think you have a good point

What we have in this society is socialism for the rich and well connected, and laissez-faire for the rest of us. It is time for that to change.

[slay]

447. As do you

All summing it up in two sentences where I went on and on and on and on. Heheh. But the way you put it is exactaly right - we, the un-rich ARE the socialism for the rich, only thing is, THEY are the only ones who really benefit - we are just allowed to survive, and even then sometimes just barely. The rich survive off the backs of the poor, corporate welfare, war profiteering. Oh and white collar crime - which due to it's very light prison time ratio relative to the crime committed (and that's if you even get caught - most don't) that it is soooOOOOoooOOO worth it for the rich to commit the crime that it's not even funny. Two years in jail for syphoning two million dollars from some idiot investors or corrupt company - hell I'll go do two years in prison right fucking now if they'll give me 2 mil. Black, poor, selling crack on the street corner? 20 YEARS MANDATORY MINIMUM. We need to all stand strong against this "Obama is waging class warfare" on us crap from the rich (and the politicians they owe IE the republicans - they invented class warfare and up until... right now - have been the masters of it. :mad: :grr:

[iamthebandfanman]

208. maybe everyones lunch should be free or reduced?

perhaps tax dollars should provide all the money to public school lunches with no extra fees at all.




get a job buddy.

[Terran]

210. Your response is just dumb.

Sorry. I'm not saying YOU are dumb, but your response is just a bunch of loudmouthed squawking that utterly fails to address the realities of the situation. Total failure.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

216. You're Projecting.

There are strong points raised in my post. Where are yours? Sure, you can attack it outright easily enough (doesn't take much intellect to do so), but can you back it up with actual, ya know, like, reasons and stuff? :hi:

[Terran]

297. Ok

Sorry, I should have been more forthcoming, I know.

How bout we just base our society completely on socialism to avoid anyone's hurt fucking feelings.

Hey, you're getting dropped off in a 10 year old clunker. FUCK THAT! That embarrasses the kid! How dare some other child get to step out of a 2008 Trailblazer. That's just not right! It's too obvious the other child is in a family that doesn't have as much money. Heaven's to Betsy that's just unacceptable!

Hey, that kid's wearing a polo shirt! THAT'S FUCKING ATROCIOUS! Won't some other kid have his feelings hurt by embarrassment that he comes in wearing a generic brand? WE JUST CAN'T HAVE THAT!!!

Fuck it. Let's satisfy the zealots! From now on I hereby declare to our society: EVERYBODY HAS TO WEAR THE SAME CLOTHES. EVERYBODY HAS TO DRIVE THE SAME CAR. EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNT. SOCIALISM RAWKS!!!!!!!1111111

This all just strikes me as a bunch of silly straw men. This issue has nothing to do with conformity or socialism, it's about treating the kids equally and not punishing them because because their parents are having trouble paying the bills. And this is a form of punishment, from any child's viewpoint, make no mistake about that. It's not going to hurt the school district to feed a few extra kids a hot lunch for a while until the parents can pay up.

[Leftist Agitator]

308. You're Projecting.

There are strong points raised in my post. Where are yours? Sure, you can attack it outright easily enough (doesn't take much intellect to do so), but can you back it up with actual, ya know, like, reasons and stuff?

:sarcasm:

[ehrnst]

218. Yeah, the Black kids in the South in the 50's were unreasonable, too.

Why on earth did they expect the same things the kids in the white schools had if they couldn't pay for it? I mean if their parents really wanted them to have an education, they would have moved their lazy asses to a good neighborhood, and paid the same income tax the white kids paid. Right??

<<Hey, you're getting dropped off in a 10 year old clunker. FUCK THAT! That embarrasses the kid! >>

Yeah, cos we all know that's the exactly same thing as being called out by school employees as a deadbeat in front of your friends.

Boy, you have it all figured out, eh?

[greendog]

220. Any 2008 Trailblazer driving, capitalist bullshit spouting parent...

... who drops a Polo shirt wearing kid off at a public (socialized) school should be jailed for child abuse.

:evilgrin:

[HamdenRice]

221. These posts just get dumber and dumber.

It's like there's this trap door. You go down two levels to dumb com2 and we think you've reached bottom. Another issue comes up, there's another rant, and you pull open the trap door and we all drop down two or three more levels to dumb com4 or dumb com5.

Is there no bottom?

[verdalaven]

335. Not today, it would seem.

[Hissyspit]

299. You do realize...

you are a zealot.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

362. He doesn't have the dedication to be a zealot.

He's just a garden-variety asshole.

[Jamastiene]

373. +1

[Maru Kitteh]

408. add me!

[noiretextatique]

311. so...you are another adult who would begrudge a child a free meal

:applause: scrooge would be proud.

[rtassi]

319. It's all about integrity, respect, honesty, decency ...

open mindedness, fairness, and genuine desire to wish good will upon all. That is why I'm Liberal.

Anything sound familiar? ... You did after all write this on your profile page!

peace.
rt

[RetroLounge]

338. Your response is no surprise.

:eyes:

RL

[Jamastiene]

371. At least you are consistently hard hearted.

That's about all I can say. :eyes:

[Reterr]

377. You are such a fucking tool

I really wonder if you buy yourself all those hearts during Valentine's day around here. It seems so hard to believe that such an unmitigated prick like you would have any fans...

You seriously ruin this board for a lot of us. You are a disgusting human being and seeing the total bullshit that spews from your keyboard is nauseating. You ruin every thread you post in you nauseating POS :puke:.

Every time I think you have sunk to a new low of lack of compassion and humility, you sink some more...

Fucking Freeper prick.

[CreekDog]

395. i disagree. a cheese sandwich is not a nutrituious meal

just because it fuels a thousand threads in GD does not mean it's proper nutrition for a child.

[diane in sf]

424. what the fuck is wrong with socialism???

[ekwhite]

425. Humiliating children makes tons of sense, doesn't it?

This is a punitive policy meant to humiliate children. Why don't we try working with the parents before we publicly humiliate the kids. At little common sense and compassion on this issue makes a lot more sense. How about working with the parents instead?

By the way, your complete misunderstanding of socialism reveals your true background. You have no idea about socialist theory, as is evident from your post. The term 'socialism' describes a broad range of theories and practices, including Social Democracy, Libertarian Socialism, Anarcho-syndicalism, Marxist-Leninist communism, Maoist theory, etc., etc. By flouting a straw-man socialism, you flaunt your ignorance.

[ipfilter]

17. When my wife worked in a school cafeteria she

had to worry about this all the time. Some parents were just deadbeats who didn't want to pay. Many were needy. There is the free and reduced program for the truly needy. However, the kids should not be humiliated because of their parents financial or moral obligations. She never had to feed any cheese sandwiches and I think she would have quit if that were the policy. Kids face enough humiliation in school without that.

[SmileyRose]

18. They need to fire the fucking asswipes traumatizing the kids.

As I said in another thread. Who the sam hell is telling the kid a sandwich and fruit is a BAD THING. The school admin allowing such, or worse, devising such, is UNFIT for school admin. Now, I realize some of these schools are at their wits end trying to get the parents who send the kid to school with no packed lunch and can but won't pay for the school provided lunch yet expect the school to feed their kid anyway. I understand it's costing schools dearly. I totally understand what it's like to leave one voice mail and email after another and get no response and no solution. You don't want the kid to go hungry so you come up with this cockamamy plan to freak the kid out so bad they go home crying to mom, thereby getting Moms attention. I don't know the answer, and since I don't, I know I'm clearly unfit to be a school admin.


I've been out of school for over 30 years and have no kids. I got no clue what goes on in there anymore. I'm from the days when the school cafeteria was set up for providing milk (white or chocolate) and OJ and that's about it. I've read DU posts all worked up because a sandwich and fruit isn't a decent meal. Which is silly.

A cheese sandwich is NOT a bad thing. Traumatizing the kid is a VERY BAD THING. Just quietly tell the kid they are on cheese sandwiches until Mom coughs up the dough. It does not have to be a trauma.

[Lars39]

30. At the school my kids went to, the lunchroom facilities and service

were privatized. So is a kid getting a free lunch costing the school system, or is it eating into the profits of the company contracted to provide the lunches?

[SmileyRose]

48. Ours was run by the band boosters.

But back then everyone had cheese and peanut butter sandwiches and fruit. If a kid came to school with no lunch we other kids would just give him part of ours. In the winter there were a lot of kids with soup or hot chocolate in a thermos. They were the most popular kids at the table that day. We did a lot of trading at lunches. I learned a lot of negotiating skills at those lunch tables. It was all a big giant no big deal at the time.

I can't wrap my head around the idea that a HOT COOKED LUNCH is somehow a necessity of life and without it a kid will suffer. Now I realize schools in disadvantaged neighborhoods that can provide a hot meal are probably doing a great service to those kids, many of whom probably never get hot meals at home (hard to cook with no utilities). But this is a valuable service, IMHO worth the community paying for, certainly NOT a nutritional necessity of life that is OWED to anyone.

[Fire1]

102. Obviously, you have no children and haven't been around any.

Re-read some posts above that talks about 'kids an be cruel.'

[SmileyRose]

128. Kids have been cruel for eons

Do something about the bullies. That's the problem, not the cheese sandwiches.

[Maru Kitteh]

436. I think the point is that the cheese sandwich is pretty much analogous to making the kid wear a sign

around their neck that says "ridicule me - may parents didn't pay this week."

You are right in saying that fruit and a sandwich can be a suitable meal, but it is the message of the meal (my parents didn't pay my bill) that is being addressed here, I believe.

Outright bullying might result from this, but it's more likely to be the pain of a dozen paper cuts, dealt in sneering stares, malicious chuckles.

I think what we have to ask ourselves is this: do the children of parents in crisis, irresponsible parents, parents in foreclosure, parents in bankruptcy, parents who are losing their jobs, parents who are forgetful, or just plain deadbeats - do the children deserve to be singled out, by authority figures in the school, for a visible and obvious sign of shame because of the actions of their parents?

I don't believe schools should be in the business of punishing children for the failings of their parents. I think schools should be a haven, where for a few hours we, as a society, do our best to provide ALL children with a safe environment that nourishes their spirit, their minds and yes, their bodies without regard to either the ability or willingness of the children's parents to pay.

If that means providing a free lunch to every school child, so be it. How much money do we waste on endless paperwork and administration of these damn reduced and free lunch programs anyway? How much time do we waste determining which child gets a free lunch, who has to pay 65¢, who gets a free lunch, who has to pay $1.15? Furthermore, the cost of mailing, printing, sending all that paperwork could be spent of feeding all of the children as well. If feeding all of the children equally as a regular course of the day is not tenable, then the schools should still feed all of the children equally, and pursue the parents they believe are dodging their obligations through collections if needed.

I just don't believe schools should be in the business of shaming children before their peers in order to punish them for the actions of their parents.

[Lex]

19. *All* kids should be served a lunch at school as part of what we pay

for schools. Sheesh.

[lazyriver]

62. I agree. Need to fund it? How about reviewing the pay some

superintendents are receiving. My sister teaches kindergarten in NJ in a less than affluent but not destitute district. She reports a rise in "cheese sandwich" incidents in the last year. The superintendent of that system makes $110k/year, has an expense account of undisclosed limit, and drives a Mercedes GL 450. Meanwhile we have lunch ladies embarrassing little kids over a $3 lunch. Shameful. Criminally shameful.

[No.23]

67. Yep. Totally agree.

Take the monies that we pay for standardized testing our children to death...

and offer them free lunches instead.

[wryter2000]

298. What a great idea!

It'll never happen, of course. :hi:

[TwilightGardener]

20. I just don't see the problem--the schools aren't going to keep giving

hot lunches to families who don't pay on an indefinite basis. At some point, the kid gets cut off from the usual menu until his parents pay up. The kid still gets to eat. Deliberately making a big show of it to humiliate might be something YOUR sadistic school lunch ladies did, but my boys have never mentioned this--they're embarrassed by lots of things, lunch isn't one of them.

[madfloridian]

26. Your boys never mentioned it?

My "sadistic" lunch ladies?

You have said all you need to say right there.

[TwilightGardener]

38. Well, yeah, it's pretty sadistic to make a show out of giving children

a separate lunch, to deliberately embarrass them, don't you agree? But this "show" doesn't go on everywhere. And when I forget to pay, my son gets a stamp on his hand as a reminder to me--I suppose that's an unacceptable "scarlet letter" to everyone here, too--but in reality, my kid won't remember to tell me or give me a note. Read the responses of parents in these "cheese" threads, most of us say it's not a big traumatic humiliating deal for kids to have to eat a different lunch--more of a reminder to pay than anything else.

[madfloridian]

50. It's a punitive measure. I see you agree with it.

Which is your right.

[TwilightGardener]

65. Well, if you don't pay your electric bill for a while, your kid doesn't get to play X-Box

or watch TV or go on Myspace, and then he's out of the loop. I suppose that's "punitive" too. Point is, if you don't pay up, them's the breaks. Actions (or lack of them) have consequences. Kids shouldn't be completely divorced and protected from the reality of their parents' behavior or habits or financial situation. My kids know to remind me to pull out the checkbook when I've forgotten, or I'll see the stamp on their hand. They have yet to throw a fit over lunch, nor do they give a shit what other kids eat.

[madfloridian]

70. You must truly believe what you say.

So best to you.

[TwilightGardener]

78. Kids are more resilient than you think. If the worst thing that happens

in their school day is to have to eat a different sandwich, they're doing all right. I was semi-poor during some of my childhood, and while lunches weren't an issue, clothes and belongings and activities often were--we learn pretty early on that there's haves and have-nots, all of us, and we learn to cope with that as part of life. And again, a lot of these kids aren't "poor", they're kids whose parents can afford to pay but probably keep forgetting.

[distantearlywarning]

246. Actually, they really aren't.

Many adults remember humiliations they suffered in childhood like it was yesterday.

I for one would have been mortified if something like that had happened to me in elementary school.

[TwilightGardener]

249. Remembering "humiliations" isn't all bad. We all suffer the slings and arrows.

Point me to the child that has grown up without them, without embarrassing moments, unfair moments, occasional indignities. I'm saying that having to eat a cheese sandwich because your parents didn't remember to write you a check is just not that crushing of a blow for the youth of my household. It's not the universal shame that many here want it to be.

[peacetalksforall]

177. I believe you are only looking down. Down at your world. This thread is about all children, some

of whom don't have a parent with money in the bank, an x-box, or a good meal at home.

You are only seeing yourself and writing about yourself..

[TwilightGardener]

204. I can only offer my own experience. That's what the OP offered too.

From what THIS parent has observed, as long as my kids get SOMETHING for lunch, it's all good as far as they're concerned. And you're right, some kids don't have what other kids have. My kids don't have what other kids have. That's life, that's what people say...

[tabasco]

484. Nope. There is a quality, in decent humans, called empathy.

Many people lack it, to varying degrees.

They find it impossible to walk in another's moccasins.

They are the ones who fuck things up for the rest of us.

[nanatois]

235. stamp

I really like the stamp on the hand. paper notices never get home. I never get to answer the phone to get the automated message. But I think I would see my child's hand stamped.

[wryter2000]

301. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[bunnies]

22. Make the parents pay in advance for hot lunch.

And offer the free lunch to any kid that wants it.

Problem solved.

[madfloridian]

31. Free lunch IS a regular lunch. Parents already pay in advance.

There is not a need for the cheese sandwich punishment.

[bunnies]

66. If they pay in advance, then how are they behind in their payments?

:shrug: I dont see how offering a free lunch to kids that want it is a punishment. I remember days when I'd forget to bring my bag lunch... I'd have loved a free sammich.

[madfloridian]

69. Deliberately misunderstanding what I say.

You are either truly believing what you say, or you are just wanting to argue.

[bunnies]

77. huh?

Actually I was just trying to have a conversation. Have you even considered that there might be a misunderstanding?

I dont even know what you think Im trying to argue...

Never mind, I guess.

[krabigirl]

27. I totally agree with you. This whole country has gone insane after 8 years of crap con$ervatism.

[bread_and_roses]

28. Thank you madfloridian, thank you

I stayed out of the other threads because I knew I could not keep civil at some of the responses. To see people here justifying and even cheering on humiliating young children is appalling, and I thought that I was inured to the the child-hating that regularly rears its' head here. I would only add, though I'm sure you are well aware, but just because it is not explicitly stated, that it is not even just about school lunches, but about totally accepting the Right Wingers frame that we are all on our own, and that children suffering for the mistakes, misfortunes, or oppressed status of their parents is just some sort of natural law.

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. I agree.... if these were adults responsible for the payment themselves, that'd be one thing

But to single out and punish these kids, whose ability to pay for their lunch is out of their hands, is just cruel. Whether the parents are truly in financial straits or are just deadbeats has no relevance to the child, who can't change the situation either way. Obviously the posters who think this is hunky dory haven't been in a school in a very long time. Kids who are obviously "poor" are cruelly mocked by the other kids, and I can't think of any more obvious way for the school to scream "hey, this kid is POOR" than to give the child an obviously undesirable "poor kid" lunch.

[madfloridian]

33. A "poor kid" lunch. Good comment.

That is exactly what it is meant to convey.

[KittyWampus]

41. All the parents have to do is FILL OUT THE FORMS. Schools HAVE free lunch and subsidized lunch

What don't you get about that?

If parents can't keep up with basic stuff like how their children are getting fed, then it's the parents' fault.

[WildEyedLiberal]

61. What don't YOU get about it being not ok to punish kids for their parents' mistakes?

I mean unless, obviously, you DO think it's okay to humiliate a six year old because their parents didn't FILL OUT THE FORMS!!!!

Yes, it probably is "the parents' fault." I guess I missed the part where liberals think it's okay to humiliate children from less than ideal homes.

[KittyWampus]

71. #1. And YOU don't get then the problem becomes kids ridiculing other kids

And what you and the rest of the reactionary screamers miss?

Parents who HAVE MONEY don't pay up. So it isn't "punishing" poor kids whose parent CANNOT pay.

It's forcing kids whose parents CAN pay but forgot to pay up current.

[Maru Kitteh]

442. A child does not ask for irresponsible parents. I don't think we should punish children

for the sins of the parents. I don't believe schools should be in the business of punishing children for the irresponsibility of their parents.

Please explain to us WHY you think innocent children should be punished for the behavior of their parents.

[AndrewP]

360. Hey! If the parents forget to pay their utilities, we should dye the kids hair green!

After all, the kids should have to pay all the debts of their parents when they are young and uncapable of doing anything about it!!!!!

:sarcasm:

[gollygee]

474. That isn't really parallel

If the parents don't pay the utilities bill, the kids' utilities are turned off too.

[Gormy Cuss]

63. What don't YOU get?

It's the parents' fault, it's the kid who gets punished. Does that work for you?

[KittyWampus]

74. Holy Crap. This is mostly parents who CAN PAY but forget. The kids aren't being punished or

labeled POOR.

What they are being labeled is "having parents who are too forgetful to pay on time."

it's basically a prod to get parents to pay.

This is NOT about children with parents who cannot pay.

[Gormy Cuss]

79. Holy crap! You really don't get it.

How often do you think it's really about not wanting to pay for it, as opposed to not being able to pay?

It may be basically a prod to get parents to pay in school districts in wealthy areas but even then it's the kid who gets prodded, not the parent. That works for you?

[KittyWampus]

93. Hello? Not all kids eating the cheese sandwich are doing so cause of poverty

It isn't the equivalent of a giant red "P" on the kids.

Much as some reactionary screamers like to pretend cause it makes them feel like pious Uber-Liberals.

Some kids eat those sandwiches cause:

their parents just forgot to pay up current (nothing to do with poverty or shame)
their parents gave them cash but kids keep it and opt for sandwich instead (nothing to do with poverty or shame)

Furthermore, I learned at a fairly young age not to give a crap what others thought about me. Because if kids aren't taunting you about what you eat for lunch, they will taunt you about your clothes or hair or whatever.

People can only humiliate you if you allow them to.

And if the issue is REALLY humiliation, which I've pointed out in the case of cheese sandwiches is bullshit, then work on changing the other kids attitudes.

Why is bullying not just allowed but encouraged?

[Gormy Cuss]

108. Hello? The shaming comes from the adults.

You also seem stuck on the notion that for most of the kids getting the cheese treatment has nothing to do with family financial hardship. Do you work in a school system where that's the case? Do you know people who don't pay their kids' hot lunch tabs just because they're trying to get away with it?

The OP testified to an experience where that was not the case. Several of us also added our own experiences with school staff wagging the fingers at us for our parents' actions or lack thereof. I too was raised to have high self esteem but it does get eroded when the adults around you are ostracizing you for something that isn't under your control.

[TwilightGardener]

96. If all kids must be treated equally, no matter what their parents do, then

does anyone here have a problem with the fact that almost no school-related activities are free? I mean, I have to pay for field trips, kits and materials for industrial-art classes, materials for science-fair projects, baseball and football team signups, etc.--if I can't afford to pay for baseball, my kid doesn't play baseball. Schools can't give all things for free, for everyone, forever--and my school is in a small rural town, funds are limited. Life is unfair, some parents can afford to sign their kids up for everything, some kids don't have home access to computers and have to stay after school to do their work...what is unacceptable about that?

[KittyWampus]

98. I wish the conversation would encompass the way bullying is not only allowed but

tacitly encouraged.

It is possible to cultivate a more accepting atmosphere amongst kids.

[TwilightGardener]

101. Bullying is a real problem for one of my sons--he is small and thin

for his age (13), nonathletic, and has ADHD and just catches shit from all sides (teachers, bigger boys) daily. What he eats for lunch is pretty far down on his totem pole of things to worry about, LOL. He would rank the gym class/locker room experience far above his lunch situation on the humiliation scale.

edit to add: he's never been bullied or teased about my forgetting to pay for lunch. Believe me, if some of the little assholes in his class thought that was mock-worthy, they'd be on his ass for that too, but no one really pays attention to that.

[Gormy Cuss]

112. Yes, I have a problem with that. It used to be that many of those activities were free

or were supported by PTA and student fund-raising activities. We had free field trips through junior high and there were no fees associated with band, sports, or materials in art or occupational classes.

edited to add: and this was in an economically mixed public school system.

[TwilightGardener]

124. Well, they're not anymore, depending on where you live, I guess.

Usually, though, teachers and office staff come through for the kids when parents don't, or can't. Unless it's really expensive, like football. That's a "too bad, so sad" situation. But again, a parent's financial situation or financial values/habits ALWAYS affect children--it's their reality. We can't totally shield kids from that, nor perhaps SHOULD we--they need to learn how to cope when funds are short and mom and dad can't afford that particular activity or piece of equpiment or internet access, or learn that some kids will always get everything while others don't get much at all. But at least they get the same curriculum and books and teachers, and they aren't going hungry.

[Gormy Cuss]

134. I know they're not anymore and I think it's a shame.

I realize that the bigger problem these days is getting enough funds to pay for the core educational function but it's really too bad that we can't get back to that time.

As someone who was raised in a comfortable blue collar family for the first half of my youth and poverty the second half, I'm keenly aware of the impact that family finances/habits have on kids. I always lived in a very poor neighborhood (that's one of the ways my parents stretched the money -- our house costs were low.)

There were no school lunches in elementary school --only junior high. In elementary school I know that some kids went without lunch every day and would have loved to have a cheese sandwich. The food itself isn't the issue. My opinion against the cheese sandwich gambit is based on watching how the poor kids were treated when I wasn't one as well as what it felt to be on one of the poor kids. I remember that kids who forget their lunch money usually got the same lunch and were instructed to bring in the money the next day. I suspect that the school tried to track down the chronic nonpaying parents but I do remember that the KID wasn't treated any differently.

[nanatois]

243. A cost to be in band

Sure there was a cost to be in the band unless you chose an instrument that was provided by the school like the drums or tube. But the clarinet and flute player bought their own instrument. maybe you just weren't aware of the cost. Tennis players bought their own rackets. many activities were not free.. As a child, you just weren't aware of it

[TwilightGardener]

251. I spent $500 on my son's clarinet--I told him he's going to be married to that

freakin' clarinet until he's a high school senior.

[Gormy Cuss]

252. No, our instruments were provided if parents couldn't afford them.

The school had drums, saxes,flutes, clarinets, glockenspiels, trumpets, trombones, tubas and Sousaphones available for loan. There were a limited number of each. As a child I was most certainly aware of it as it affected the choice of instrument I learned to play in order to be in band.

[nanatois]

265. why I played the Bassoon

That is one reason I played the bassoon through college- it was always provided. But i know our school did not provide trumpets, clarinets, flutes and many other instruments. I was just pointing out that many things weren't free. The best tennis players had private lessons and so did the 1st chair musicians. There has always been a disparity. But thankfully schools provide some instruments and they provide food.

[Gormy Cuss]

281. My school system did because they made an effort to establish a lending library

so that even low income kids who were interested could play. The band director provided the instruction on all even though he was a pianist-that's why I had such a lousy embouchure.

It's not about the disparity. Of course some kids had private lessons and expensive instruments. What the school provision of instruments did was make the band experience accessible to more kids by eliminating the cost barrier.

Kids in sports had all of their uniforms provided free of charge. The only activity that had a fee attached was swimming and that was because our schools did not have pools.

It was a different time when these activities were considered educational enrichments rather than pay-to-play bonuses. As I wrote upthread I realize that these days getting enough money allocated for core education is hard enough.

[Irishonly]

356. What about parents that make just a couple dollars too much?

Everything is higher these days and I don't know how long it has been since income levels were reviewed. There are millions of children falling through the cracks.

[countingbluecars]

34. Thankfully my school was nothing like this.

The lunchroom worker loved the children and tried her best not to single out any child in a negative manner. Children who were on free or reduced lunch were indistinguishable from the other children. On rare occasions, after days of not being able to pay (or in some cases-forgetting to pay for weeks by families who could afford it), a child would quietly receive a sandwich lunch. And this was only after the parent was contacted. I have also seen many a teacher pay for a student's lunch if that child's family was going through hard times and had not filled out paperwork to receive free or reduced lunch prices. Sorry that staff at your school were so insensitive.

[tanngrisnir3]

35. So at one school there are some assholes, and let's just drop the program.

Yeah, that really helps out hungry kids.

[Laelth]

37. You're right, as usual, madfloridian.

Shame can indeed be a powerful motivator. Perhaps the shamed child will be inspired to get a job ... that's what the conservatives want, right? A return to the good old days of industrial child labor! And if that's not what they want, why do they (and many people here, for that matter) condone punishing a child for his or her parents' failures?

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--sloppy typing.

[KittyWampus]

39. All that needs to be done? FILL OUT THE FORMS. Why blame schools for fucked up parents?

And if it's a matter of a week's lag time, the parents can make a sandwich.

ALL schools have either free and subsidized lunch. Most also have free breakfast for everyone.

It's a PARENT'S JOB to know how their child is getting fed. It's BASIC.

Furthermore, how about changing the culture where asshole kids make fun of others for what they wear, what they eat, where they live and so forth?

You and the other DU'ers getting twisted up over a nutritional free lunch that ultimately prods kids to get their parents to either FILL OUT FORMS OR PAY UP is that society needs to raise kids and parents are off the hook.

Also, Life is occasionally not "fair".

[Lilith Velkor]

172. It's not blaming schools for fucked up parents

It's blaming schools for ACTIVELY encouraging bullying, in an attempt to punish kids for having fucked up parents, who, being fucked up, wouldn't give a shit either way.

[Oak2004]

197. I thought progressivism was about the struggle to make those aspects of life we can control as fair

as possible, not justifying unfairness by spitting out right-wing rationalizations like "Life is occasionally not "fair". "

Silly me, not knowing that "social justice" meant unfairness was A-OK. My bad.

[noiretextatique]

229. shaming children isn't right

even if their parents didn't fill out a form. it's mean-spirited and total unnecessary.

[w8liftinglady]

49. it depends on how the school approaches it.

In my son's school-about 70-30 minority,there simply is no stigma.White,black,hispanic-if you forget your lunch,or your lunch money-you get a sandwich,milk and a piece of fruit.It beats his previous school,in an "affluent" subdivision,which had no policy -the teachers often shared their lunches with kids who "forgot"their money(as many of these people-including myself-were living far beyond their means and had to skate to payday,or work extra shifts,forgetting to pack a kid's lunch).Just my opinion.

[Triana]

59. as someone who had been humiliated several times as a kid, I can tell you it SEARS at a kid's

soul and his/her self-esteem. It fries it to a frizzle and they NEVER forget it.

You're damn right it's not about a cheese sandwich. It's about punishing innocent kids for something THEY have nothing to do with - they're just subject to it.

Funny how all those "pro-lifers" don't give a DAMN about kids once they're outside the womb and that they see nothing unfit about ABUSING them like this.

SICK.

:mad:

[ogneopasno]

68. I'm sorry you worked at such a harsh, hateful school. Clearly the problem was with the workers and

the process, not the fact that a school cannot subsidize lunches for people who don't pay. If you can't afford hot lunch every day, sign up for free and reduced lunches. If your balance goes below zero, understand that your kid will get a cheese sandwich.

[madfloridian]

76. The hot lunch costs no more than the cheese sandwich..

That's my point. It's a punitive measure.

[SpiralHawk]

72. Thank you for shedding some light on the cheese

eom

[spiderpig]

80. This really hits home.

Mr. pig went to public school fifty years ago. Once a week the school would run a film and charge the kids .25. Mr pig didn't have the money and would have to sit by himself in the classroom.

The pain and humiliation stay with him to this day.

There are no words.

[w8liftinglady]

103. OMG-that made me cry.

I remember those days.My mom always gave me a second quarter,in case someone "forgot" theirs.I can't imagine a teacher letting a student sit by themselves.

[spiderpig]

115. Aw, thank you w8liftinglady.

To this day Mr. pig is a big tipper and always has a handout for the needy, especially if they're a veteran (he went into the Marine Corps at 17). We're not rolling in dough, but he never forgot what it's like to be without. It's one of the many reasons I adore him!:loveya::hi:

[w8liftinglady]

129. Although my mom was teaching me about sharing,she also came from a very poor family

and also had memories of being left out.

[spiderpig]

133. I'm touched by your word "sharing"

Mr. pig has been the most generous soul I've ever known. From the time I met him he was always polite, affectionate, and completely un-self-aware. For twenty years he's been wholeheartedly generous and loyal. I tease him about it, and he always says "I was brought up to share what I have."

Makes me cry every time. Knowing his family, I know where it came from.

[snappyturtle]

114. They did that in my school too. The movie was a BIG thing....talked

about and anticipated for days. I am so sorry to hear about Mr.pig...it would hurt. There are no words...you're right.

[spiderpig]

131. Thanks for sharing, snappyturtle. We didn't have movies in my school, so when

Mr. pig told me about this I was just gobsmacked. He said solemnly "Don't you think they could have just ignored the quarter and let me go with the rest of the class?"

Jeez, when you're a kid you're aware of every tiny difference between you and the norm. I was horribly upset when we had to do fancy monograms in art class and I didn't have a middle name! I felt guilty about making one up!

I don't have kids, but I sorely remember the pain of being "different", even in (now) stupid ways. What is wrong with people (adults)?

[snappyturtle]

478. Funny you said that you still now remember the pain of being different.

I have lots of thoughts along those lines especially for clothing. I am a twin so that complicated matters for my folks. We were always glad to get the hand-me-downs from two rich cousins! Our birthday was right before school started so our b'day present was usually something for the new school year. One year I asked for a bucket purse, rather than new underwear or something else obviously not exciting, because ENERYONE had one. I knew exactly which kind I wanted but it wasn't the one I got. I had to carry it so as to not offend Mom but it wasn't at all like EVERYONE else's. I would hide it under the desk or leave it in my locker. This may sound really petty but it was one of the only times I specifically asked for anything. Consequently, today I have a thing about purses....although I can't afford expensive ones and I like to find ones that not everyone is carrying!

[Name removed]

176. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spiderpig]

263. Aren't you glad you don't live in their world?

Must suck to be soulless.

[Maru Kitteh]

439. In Jr. High, we had "Food Drive Fridays." A nice idea in theory. Bring a can, get out 15min early.

Except for my best friend, and other poor kids didn't have canned food sitting around that they didn't need. I asked her why she didn't bring some cheap creamed corn or something and she said "What's the point? It'd just be Dad and me going to pick the same damn can back up from the food pantry next week."

That set me back.

After that, I brought an extra can of food for her every week - and then we both stayed back anyway. We took our cans of food to the front of the class with everyone else then we went back to our seats and did cat's in the cradle or whatever with the other kids who were punished by poverty.

The "let them eat cake" motherfuckers can take a long, long walk on a short pier perched over a volcano, imo.

[petronius]

83. The schools in all of the original articles stated that the policy did reduce

costs. And I didn't see any DUers, on any thread, come out in favor of 'shaming' - many explicitly condemned it.

[madfloridian]

87. How could it reduce costs to make two separate sets of meals?

They cook the regular hot lunch in large quantities, so explain how it is cheaper to also make up a separate cheese sandwich lunch.

:shrug:

[petronius]

92. Perhaps the components are cheaper? Perhaps they cook less of the

hot lunch based on demand? Perhaps the parents who can afford to pay up when they realize the school is setting boundaries (and the free-lunch-eligible parents fill out the forms)?

[madfloridian]

94. So you agree with pressuring the parents by using the children.

I see.

[petronius]

106. You are obsessed with the idea that shame and humiliation are an essential part

of this. I think you're wrong.

A school should be able to find ways to avoid providing an unpaid-for service while not emabarrassing the children. Your lunchroom was apparently unable to do so, but that's their failing, and not a failing of the general policy.

[madfloridian]

109. Because it is meant that way. I am "obsessed" with sensitivity to children.

The hot lunch is just as cheap to serve, so that is no argument at all.

[petronius]

118. Except that apparently it's not just as cheap. And the motive is entirely your assumption. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. you worked in an industrial kitchen perhaps? I have

and from my experience, the sandwiches take more staff time to make than the mac and cheese

In fact, they are also more expensive to produce

So no, you are wrong

By the way, you were in school when the cool kids berated the poor kids and the geeks? Do you remember that? These policies encourage that bullying.

You all for that?

How cool is that? Perhaps you were one of the cool kids in school so you have no idea what I'm talking about

[madfloridian]

153. I think there are a lot of "cool kids" here at this forum now.

They just don't see themselves that way yet. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. Hey there, thanks for trying to point out what should be painfully

obvious to most folks

The current recession (pray to god does not go down to depression) will even change much of their collective thinking, as they get affected personally and gee golly perhaps cannot afford those lunches, and junior is given a sandwich.

Fer the record by the way I like cheese sandwiches

The good thing of having done so many jobs over the years, I have a wide set of experience, ah the flipping of burgers at a university cafeteria and serving them to the football players, would you like a heart attack with your fries? Trust me, there were many moments I went... nutrition is not their top priority...

:-)

Here is the football team special

Tripple patty cheeseburger, with six slices of bacon and chily... see what I mean about the heart attack to go? Oh and of course chilli cheese fries and whole milk

[petronius]

163. Nope, never worked in a kitchen and never was a cool kid. However, I come

from a school of thought in which anecdotes and assumptions don't trump fact and common sense.

[madfloridian]

164. You just said I did not have common sense and did not post facts.

And, my friend, I don't intend to let you insult me like that. I can't do anything about it, but I sure as hell don't have to see it.

Bye now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Well from my first hand experience I can tell you this

cooking the mac and cheese at industrial levels, takes less money and staff time than the sandwiches

Lets say I need oh I don't know 100 of those for a school of 1500, that will take at least five people, even when you are using factory style production.

The mac and cheese takes one

Also kids pick up cues and the kid with the cheese sandwich, unless this is a Jewish school where everybody will be served that for lunch, will stand out like a sore thumb... The cool kids pick on that. They also pick on the designer jeans or lack of them... but it just adds to that

Anybody who's worked at a school, or has kids in school, or has bad memories from school, knows what bullies pick upon.

There is more, these schools are getting federal funds from the Federal Lunch program, so I'd hazard that the sandwiches are a bad use of that money as well... see the point about making them

By the way the University I worked at, before they privatized it, had a sandwich room, where ten employees made all the sandwiches sold in the cafeteria, They started at five in the morning and were done by four in the afternoon, two shifts.

[petronius]

329. Again: the schools who have implemented this policy, as described in every article

I've seen, report that it saved money one way or another. So, the fact that your university had an expensive sandwich staff really isn't relevant.

Furthermore, I (and probably every other person who has posted in favor of the sandwich policy) have repeatedly said that this policy must be implemented so as to avoid harassment and humiliation. Nothing you (or you co-opinionists) have said suggests that such implementation is impossible. In fact, all any of you have offered are the obvious truisms that 'sometimes sandwiches are expensive' and 'bullies exist.'

So, I'm sorry I can't join in your poutrage. Go ahead and pat yourselves on the back for speaking the Truth^TM and bemoan the freeperishness of your fellow DUers all you want (as the OP did in the very first post in the thread). As for me, I will continue to reject arguments based on insult, anecdote, or appeals to emotion...

[nadinbrzezinski]

346. They save money, really

it takes five folks to make a hundred sandwiches, takes one employee to make the mac and cheese

And that wasn't an expensive sandwitch room, shows how little you know of Industrial kitchen operations

These were DEDICATED STAFF, making over 5K sandwitchers a day, ranging from Peanut butter and jelly to turkey and cheese.. sometimes more

By the way... kids being putled out of line and singled out is what is happening, not what should be happening

Get the point now?

And yes, I'd like to see books. Somehow I don't believe they are saving money... even if they claim such

Oh I see, parents who are delinquent will now pay their fees, never mind the seven year old learned quite a different lesson than you expect from being singled out

This is a right wing policy, advocated by the cool kids

[ekwhite]

437. Hmmm

You just posted that assumptions don't trump facts, and now you are allowing assumptions to trump the facts stated by someone who is experienced in working in food service. Perhaps you should take your own advice?

[petronius]

477. The other poster's 'facts' fall in the category of irrelevant anecdote (nt)

[Daemonaquila]

402. Exactly.

You know, I don't have a problem with a kid skipping lunch one day, or having to scrape together a buck from pockets and friends to buy an a la carte something or other like I did occasionally... because I did stupid things like forget my lunch money/ticket, or forgot to get money from my parents. There's nothing humiliating - in itself - about having to bring a lesser lunch to school or buying just a cookie because you are out of cash. But this is calculated cruelty, to make a kid feel smaller than dirt publicly, and that's not cool. It's not about the money - the cheese sandwich doesn't cost a significant amount less than the nachos or the pizza slice the other kids are getting.

There are so many ways the school could and should be dealing with the parents, without putting the kids in the middle. They're not sweet and pleasant - but adults can handle that, unlike the kids. I'm not sure that the embarrassment is better than going hungry- especially when friends can and often do help out.

[Tikki]

97. I was a public elementary school lunch cashier....

and you are 100% correct.

The goal of lunch time for students is to be a
time for students to relax a bit and enjoy good
food and casual conversation...away from the
classroom and, in the school I worked, just prior
to some fun activity during lunch recess.

Does it surprise you that as staff within a school
we had a development plan? We had nutrition goals
set up for our students...we took our jobs seriously..
and if a student had a chronic problem
with lunch finances..we addressed that
quickly.

So this school kitchen is making X amount of cheese sandwiches in
advance...assuming that x amount of students are going to
default on lunch money...I wonder who they sell the left over cheese
sandwiches to..maybe they throw them away.

WOW...I would error on the side of the common knowledge that in TODAY'S
economy families may need help.

Make information about the school lunch program, it's benefits and
limits, available more often to parents. Include the qualification
forms for free or reduced lunch to go home in a regular interval
with other take home newsletters to parents.

We had one designate within the health staff who would privately
contact a family if there was a chronic situation with the lack of
lunch funding.

Also, often the financial situation of a family can change well after
the beginning of the school year...Parents need to know they can
apply for help with the lunch program at any time.

Tikki
ps...when a family's financial situation improves and takes them out of
the qualification range they are to contact the school and let them know.
Most families did contact us as their situation changed.

[madfloridian]

100. You really make some good points.

But they will be lost on the righteous conservatives at the forum, I fear.

They only know punitive stuff.

Thanks for the post.

:hi:

And I paid for more lunches than I ever should have. Other stuff too, just like all teachers do.

Because we care. Sounds like you cared as well.

[tanngrisnir3]

113. No, it appears you're the one who 'knows' punitive stuff; it's all you seem to see

This happened at your school, and is a problem easily rectified, and you're implying that it's somehow systemic.

Sorry, I'm not buying that.

[madfloridian]

117. You should feel free to differ.

Many do.

It is not just my school. It is setting two standards.

[tanngrisnir3]

122. Can you cite any data that shows this is somehow a trend or systemic?

[snappyturtle]

154. If you had read all the OPs on this topic I think you would realize that

the 'cheese sandwich' is very common. How does your local grade school handle lunches for students who haven't/couldn't pay?

edit:spelling

[tanngrisnir3]

159. I'm not arguing that it's not common or uncommon.

I'm arguing that it doesn't appear to be a problem as to how they are distributed to students.

[snappyturtle]

174. I would never have guessed from what you wrote that sandwich distribution

was the problem. But since you've brought this up, I do think it makes a difference if the sandwich is handed out with discretion or announced, but neither is good. The child with the cheese sandwich in his hands has been singled out for his parents' failure.

[Tikki]

116. We cared..like you can't imagine...

I worked at a K-8 school...some of those middle school aged boys
could eat two, three of our lunches at one time. Like I've said here previously..
Some of these children will grow 5 inches or more taller in less than a year.
They need nutritious calories to do that properly.

I heard tummies rumbling and I heard children plead with us and other
kids in the lunchroom for their left-overs.

We had a policy...if they ate all on their plates (trays) and we had
extra...they would have more.

PEOPLE...these are our children...they are not tiny enemies of the state.
They are not terrorist...they are the children you see around your town...

Tikki

[Jamastiene]

374. "PEOPLE...these are our children...they are not tiny enemies of the state."

Well said. :thumbsup:

[WI_DEM]

119. You are absolutely right.

[TheWraith]

125. Kicked and recommended. nt

[jpgray]

127. You know, sometimes a cheese sandwich is just a cheese sandwich.

Kids are punished every day for their parents' mistakes. Sometimes kids -are- their parents' mistakes! :D

But seriously, every time a kid is dropped off in a blue fume-belching K-car, with a raggedy-ass backpack from four years ago and shitty out-of-style clothing/shoes, they're being affected socially by who their parents are and what their parents do. Is the solution to hide this situation in all cases or just some? Are you also for school uniforms, mandatory busing, free lunch, etc.?

If no, what makes this case different? You can't protect kids from being punished socially for who their parents are--the kids already know who is poor and who is not, whose parents are loving and involved and whose are not, just as alert teachers do. What needs to happen isn't to hide any and all tangible sign of a kid's parents or social situation, it's to deal directly with the mindset that gets a kid ostracized for these reasons to begin with. If it isn't a cheese sandwich (and it usually isn't), it will be something else.

And if you can't deal with such things as a kid, you're in for a hellish time as an adult. Is it a problem? Sure. Can it be dealt with? Yes, but not by pretending everyone came from the same place by hiding every superficial marker of social disadvantage, because kids are quite capable of making such distinctions without them.

[G_j]

132. who is talking about hiding every superficial marker of social disadvantage?

I missed that

---
the OP was recounting a story of punitive humiliation, as far as I could tell.

[madfloridian]

138. So you are saying "deal with it".. You compare it to school uniforms?

I think we need to speak up when we think something is wrong.

No, I am not for school uniforms. You seem to think "deal with it" solves all the problems.

I think adults need to speak out for children when they can.

[jpgray]

140. Did you even read the post? I'm saying instead of papering over trifles, go to the root

If it isn't the cheese sandwich it will be (and has been) something else. Absent the cheese sandwich, there is no shortage of other social markers to seize upon in order to belittle or ostracize other kids. You'll never paper over all those markers without being an authoritarian douche, so the best route is to attempt to address kids' clannishness and hatred of the "other." It's tough, but it will have more impact than simply removing one way for kids to tease each other, pat yourself on the back and delude yourself into believe you've made a difference, no?

[madfloridian]

142. I read it. You are saying we can't make a difference in a child's life

because they will always be shamed in some way.

Well, guess what. They do remember later on in life who was kind to them. I have had too many come to see me when they were older, even coming to my home. They remembered kindness.

[jpgray]

155. You can, but not by papering over superficial nonsense

The need for kids to tease and exploit--how can I describe this? Picture a massive gigantic fucking river. Now picture innumerable tributaries from innumerable mountains of social difference, all exploitable for clannishness. Cut off one of the tributaries as you will, you won't make a whit of significant difference in the river's direction. You have to try and dam the fucker, or you're just deluding yourself that you're making a difference.

What happens if you just paper over shit? The kid will gratefully collect his real lunch, put on his bland school uniform that's the same as everyone else's, sit down in his assigned lunch seat (to avoid cliques!), eat quietly and leave. Sounds great! Except, after lunch, that same kid will get immediately pantsed for having an ugly, cheap haircut. There's no papering over that, unless you pay for his haircuts, but the behavior is the same in all cases and has to be met head on. It's not easy, but why do the easy but superficial and claim you've made a huge difference?

[madfloridian]

165. I can't believe you just accused me of being superficial.

I simply would not have believed it of you.

Many here, yes, I would have believed it. But that you said it cuts deep.

Not because I think I am wrong, because I don't think so. I think small kindnesses matter.

But because I see you in a different light.

[jpgray]

169. -You're- not superficial, but I think that's where your focus is on this

Is it bad policy? Yeah, probably. Will fixing the policy do nothing worthwhile? It -will- be one less thing for kids to get tormented about, so it will do something worthwhile.

The title of the thread may have confused me, because in if it's not just about a cheese sandwich, it's about how kids often suffer for social disparities they have zero control over. While some school policies exacerbate this, the real problem is the way the kids are behaving to one another, and they will seize on something else absent this policy. The problem isn't that kids whose parents forget/choose not to pay for lunch get a cheese sandwich. It's that they are singled out and thus open to being horribly teased. But that's just it--kids who are singled out in almost -any- way are open to being horribly teased. If you curb that behavior, the cheese sandwich remains, but ceases to be a big problem. Raggedy backpacks remain, but cease to be big problems. Etc. That's what I thought you were talking about with the "it's more than a cheese sandwich" thing.

(In instances where kids are -directly- shamed by staff/admin in an effort to spur payment, it still would be a problem.)

[dbmk]

225. Problem is

Haircut, car, backpack, clothes is on a grade and subject to fads.

Can't pay/Can pay is as black and white as it comes.

[madfloridian]

167. Dupe...deleted.

[peacetalksforall]

193. You post is way over the line. We're talking about punitive measures

against parents taken out on children by adults with depravity of ideas to solve their situation without singling out children.

The OP contains NOTHING about clothes, cars, haircuts.

It's about adults and their solution and the efficacy of it, plus the long lasting affects, plus the entire concept of making the children pay for something there parents couldn't or didn't do.

Kids know when they are being punished for something they did. Kids remember when they are being punished for something they DIDN'T DO.

To think anything else is an endorsement of the punitive action.

We're talking bureaucracy on a small scale.

Those adults are wrong. Many ideas were included in this thread for solving the problem.

Again, this is not about other social exlusiveness of any other type here.

[fedupwithbush]

366. Amen

:)

[Greyhound]

130. Of course it is about humiliation, and those asshats defending it are the problem.

Talking with one of our European DUers, the problem was apparent. The Democratic Party today is further right than the Republik Party of the 70s, there simply is no significant or effective representation of the left in this nation any longer.

Is it that it is finally becoming clear that authoritarianism has hit the wall? A realization that system just flat out doesn't work and there is nowhere to go other than the new feudalism and they are all scratching and clawing to be the new peerage?

Your state (and Texas) is the vanguard, but the whole nation is right behind you.

[alfredo]

136. It is not conservatism, it is Authoritarianism.

[hfojvt]

137. "accepted so easily at a Democratic forum"

Uh, outrage seems to be beating acceptance by about 10-1. I find the ridiculous outrage over a fairly sensible policy to be a bigger concern, but DU often seems like an outrage-machine seeking a target.

If it can be "handled another way" then what is this "other way" that you are proposing? Maybe that way will seem outrageous to some too. Let's all be intolerant of people with different opinions.

[madfloridian]

148. Why is it sensible to plan two sets of lunches....

when it is cheaper to prepare just one in large quantities?

You want me to be more tolerant? Really?

[hfojvt]

156. Is it really cheaper to prepare just one?

I am guessing that a lunch costs at least 50 cents for a student. I figure a cheese sandwich only costs me 25 cents to make and I am not getting bread and cheese at bulk rates. It is sensible to make people pay when they can afford to pay and to get federal dollars for the school when they cannot. Otherwise just raise the property taxes for everybody and have all the kids eat for "free".

[earth mom]

143. To me it sounds like retaliation on parents that instead hurts their kids.

People won't admit it, but many school districts punish parents who don't a$$ kiss teachers, the staff and district.

If you challenge them in any way or disagree with them-they get mean and they get even.

[nichomachus]

145. I make a motion that Skinner change the name of DU to "Libertarian Asshole Underground"

There seem to be so many of them here.

[musette_sf]

178. good one

:rofl:

[G_j]

182. good one! nt

[peacetalksforall]

198. Exactly. The theme is - I got mine, screw the rest. So sad.

[closeupready]

236. Oh, I know! thank you for pointing that out.

Shees. This place really has changed for the worse. You see it in thread after thread.

[JenGatherer]

312. I have to agree

I just found this forum and now I think I'll forget I found it. Thank you madfloridian for sharing your truth.

[redqueen]

280. +1

:thumbsup:

[acmavm]

150. Yes! Thank goodness someone has posted something sane in

relation to this fucking sandwich controversy.

And you're right, it is punitive measure.

Schools lunches need to be subsidized to the extent that all kids, no matter what the circumstances, get a good meal. Some kids don't. Sad fact, but some are home alone at night and there's no one to fix them a meal. Some people don't have any money. Some are homeless and don't have a place to fix a meal.

Regardless, all kids should be able to have lunch. Cut back on the foreign aid, do a little domestic aid for our children.

[peacetalksforall]

157. Cruelty to children is the worst kind of cruelty.

[bvar22]

306. Those blind to cruelty to children...

...have the WORST kind of Blindness.

[JTFrog]

162. "Revenge is a dish best served cold."

Someone actually posted that here on DU.

My head is still spinning.

You are 100% correct that this has nothing to do with a cheese sandwich.

[madfloridian]

173. I saw that posted here and was stunned.

Times really have changed under conservative politics...and the people who espouse these "personal responsibility" topics don't even realize they are picking up right wing talking points.

It's just part of our country's mindset now.

:shrug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

189. Where? Linky plz? -nt

[JTFrog]

191. In one of the other threads.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5145253&mesg_id=5146008

[closeupready]

241. Oh, yeah, I saw that, too.

That was in relation to one of the financial schemes, I think, right?

Joe Lieberman didn't coin that phrase, but he said it last year in relation to something else. Reason enough to strike it from our daily lexicon.

[varelse]

170. Kicked and recommended

This definitely should be handled in a way that doesn't single out, and stigmatize innocent children.

[Bluerthanblue]

180. you are so right Madfloridian-

it isn't about the sandwich.

And it is the child who is paying the real price.

I don't understand how strongly opposed some people are with the concept of sharing freely, of having compassion and empathy for each other. Some how the notion that "I got mine" is all that matters, a selfish, arrogant, I'm King of the Mountain- attitude seems to crawl through our society and recruit angry, frustrated members.

As one who been hurt by this kind of stigma as a mother whose children have faced bigotry and discrimination on many levels- I thank you for speaking out.

This may seem like a 'little thing' to some, but to sometimes it's the little things that really matter. Like the last straw, or the hole in the dam.


:hi:
blu

[bigmonkey]

247. To have a little compassion for the people pushing this harsh lesson ...

Well, it's hard to do. With some, though, it may really be that they see a controlled, deliberate harshness as a benefit to society and the child. They often bring up that life isn't fair, that kids need to be able to adapt, and so forth. For a person who sees the world as a harsh environment, I would guess they see these deliberate humiliations as safe humiliations, ones that teach without any danger of causing out-of-control harm.

I don't agree with that way of looking at the world at all. Seeing the world as essentially harsh is a viewpoint, not a truth. But I'm trying to get into the head of a person who thinks that way, to see how they see this as a good thing.

[Cid_B]

195. I can see it now...

A bunch of thin white men in the darkest corner of the cafeteria with the tips of their fingers together.

"We shall ostracize the children because..........*dramatic pause*................... we hates them. Let them eat cheese and fruit" *insert maniacal laughter here*

You know the best way to deal with this? Pack a damn lunch or if you are really that poor teach your kid to have some damn self esteem. Maybe its a good idea if we don't reinforce the idea that what the "cool kids" think is the most important thing.


Sheesh..

[Maru Kitteh]

443. Get thee the fuck away to the " up by the bootstraps" "let them eat cake"

and "fuck the poor - I got mine" forums so readily available on the internets.

[Orangepeel]

196. lunchroom workers aren't sadistic

at least, not in any higher proportion than the rest of the population. I can't see them humiliating kids on purpose.

[madfloridian]

199. I think I posted about tactics. I did not get personal.

[madfloridian]

200. I see I spawned two copy cats.

:wow:

Not sure what that means.

:wow:

[iamthebandfanman]

203. regardless of the parents, its not fair to single out children

and then embarrass them in front of people they have to be around every day.

thats sick and cruel.

they can afford to feed those children, they just dont want to take more money away from sports programs im sure.

kids can be so cruel when they find a weakness in another kid..
if i had a dollar everytime i heard a joke or someone made fun of at the expense of their family not having much when i was little, id be rich... now it was always done jokingly , but i know the kids who had it done to them were completely broken up about it inside.

thats all a kid from a under privileged broken home needs, some smartass kid pointing out his flaws and lack of material objects.

people are cruel, and some kids can be even more so because they dont hold back...

people who pretend that making all the kids feel equal is somehow a negative thing have serious issues and have never been in a position to be put down over something they couldnt control.

[Are_grits_groceries]

207. I taught in a school where a lot of my kids were very poor.

they used to fight over what I thought were some silly things. They could really get into it about their names or about someone making fun of their clothes. They couldn't just blow it off.

I finally decided that because they had so little materially, that their dignity was of paramount importance. They could take a lot, but if their dignity was stepped on and they were humiliated, they would fight like hell. I didn't blame them. And no they were not shrinking violets who needed to get used to life's tough lessons. They had already had their fill at a young age and knew a lot about how hard things were.

So for whatever reason, humiliating kids like that is awful. Shaming the kids to get their parents to pay or to FILL OUT FORMS is cruel.

And don't start the hogwash about they are lucky to be fed, etc. That's Pat Buchanan's line. Are we that insensitive now so we don't make an effort to do what we can when we can?

[Daemonaquila]

406. It's the same in any school.

When I or my parents screwed up and I didn't have lunch money that day, it was more important to me to save face than to eat something.

It was worse for the truly poor kids in the school who had to deal with that multiple times per week. You can argue about your fashion sense, but everyone saw it if someone wasn't getting food, or was eating the extra peanut butter sandwich off a friend's tray all the time. A lot of us would try to bring extra for them, or make sure we "accidentally" bought too many lunch tickets.

There are so many things to be humiliated and picked on about at school - why the hell does the school have to manufacture yet more? There are so many better ways to deal with this that can save money, deal with deadbeats, etc. without kicking an innocent party when they're down.

[Maru Kitteh]

444. Welcome to DU, and thanks so much for your excellent post.

[TBF]

209. Excellent post. K&R n/t

[knitter4democracy]

214. There's no way in hell our lunch lady would pull that kind of crap.

I'm honored to volunteer with her every Wednesday (it's a two-three person job, but they'll only pay for one part-timer, so the PTA makes up the difference). I've seen kids forget to bring a lunch or who have no money in their lunch budget every single week. While they have to wait for everyone else to go through (the parapros have them wait at the end of the line), Ms. Kathy always makes sure to make extra and leave herself some space so she can feed them out of the regular lunch, and she does it with a smile.

I've seen her make up a second lunch for a kid who dropped hers without even batting an eye and put together a fruit and cracker plate for a kid who threw up and feels queasy but a little hungry.

She's a gem, and I have flat-out told the administration that and that they should do anything they can to keep her.

If I saw that kind of cheese sandwich crap, as a mom, I'd be screaming bloody murder all over the whole administration.

[Tikki]

224. I love Ms. Kathy....

She is my kind of hard working American...

Tell her 'great job' for me.


Tikki

[knitter4democracy]

257. I will!

She really is awesome, and for some reason, the central office jerks can't see that. They see that she's protective of the kids and can get prickly if you don't respect her opinion, but having helped out on a day she was absent and we had a totally incompetent sub, I can tell you that Ms. Kathy's the best. All of us moms who help out think so.

Edited for stupid spelling mistakes.

[AlCzervik]

217. School lunch may be the hot meal a child gets all day.

i don't know many of you grew up lacking but i did and i remember what it's like to be the one and the shame that comes with it. It's not about who's wearing Ed Hardy shirts and being dropped off in a "2008 trailblazer" , it's about being in that area where maybe your parents/parent doesn't qualify for assistance but you don't have enough money to pay for living expenses including a decent lunch. Life sucks hard enough when you're flirting with the poverty line and we needn't make any more demoralizing for the least among us.

getting off my soap box now, Al out.

[Solly Mack]

222. Thank you

K&R

[Deep13]

223. Wow! I've never heard of this.

Unreal, except I real should expect this kind of shit by now.

[nanatois]

227. no child left hungry

The way you describe it is horrible and demeaning. However, many times I have fallen behind (as mother of 7) and my kids got the cheese sandwich kinda lunch. They were not humiliated. They were not pulled out of line and made a big deal of. But many things aren't fair. The school field trip where some kids have money to go to the gift shop. Or the forgetting the permission slip and so NO field trip. Schools like all organizations have to draw a line. And here, any child, rich or poor, that hasn't paid up at least gets a sandwich, fruit and milk. The child is not being left to sit in a corner and not eat. the child is not left hungry You all are focusing on that it is a poor child being mistreated. But I bet a lot of other kids that get the same meal.

[madfloridian]

230. It is meant to be demeaning. That IS my point.

Why should they get a separate lunch when there is plenty of the regular lunch?

To prove a point?

Welcome to DU, but we surely don't agree.

[nanatois]

my kids weren't embarrassed

My kids did not feel embarrassed. I did but not them. I would go when I found out and apologize. I did not expect the school to feed my children for free but I really appreciated them making sure my children did not go hungry because of my neglect. The situation you described was horrid,and that I will not condone. But somehow, at my children's schools, it was done with empathy and caring. But I also feel that if you don't have the money, apply for reduced lunches. If you are short because it is the end of the month, pack some food for the kids. And if you still don't remember, be thankful that someone cares enough to not let them go hungry. However, if the child comes home, tells mom that they got a cheese sandwich because she forgot to pay, and she blows up about it, then the child will feel that it was a bad thing and be embarrassed.

[madfloridian]

269. Why not just feed them a regular meal with the others?

THAT is my point.

[nanatois]

271. thanks

for the welcome. It is nice that people agree to disagree and remain civil

[fedupwithbush]

228. I beg to differ.

I am a lunch lady.

We have and have had sack lunches to students from day one if they didn't have money to pay for the normal lunch. And this is only when they are already in the red $5.00.

The sack lunch, which is now cheese and used to be peanut butter and jelly is ALL about cost.

Our normal lunch for students costs the school pretty much the whole amount we charge, which includes our overhead(heating, labor, etc.) The sack lunch costs about half of that. We still have to pay for the food and put it together.

Students are not called out. They have to go get a pink slip from the office for days when they forget their lunch card AND when we take their lunch card because they are in the red AND when they still want to eat and need a sack lunch. The pink slip states what the student can have.

We charge .90 for that sack lunch. The regular lunch is $2.10.

We have to buy the food and pay for labor(which if you didn't know we are not well paid).

Many people, including myself, that work for the school lunch room are part time. There are very few full time employee's. Many of us have a spouse that actually supports us and pays for our insurance. We are not paid for out of school days or summers. We try to do a very good job in a situation that even in the best of times requires you to not worship the dollar. Most of us could work full time if we wanted to and if we needed to. The school has a hard time finding people to work in the kitchen that DON'T have alternative income. You couldn't live on what we make and be out of work 2 plus months every year. And no we don't get unemployment for that time off, although I've heard you used to be able to. We are contract.

As to the extra food you say there is. Yes, SOMETIMES there is extra food. But we try to prepare what we know to be the correct amount. We use most leftovers. Not a lot of waste as we cook a lot of the food we need for each lunch.

We have to account for portion size, amount of cans we use, temperatures taken on every item multiple times, proper storage, and on and on.

I said on another column on this my own daughter got her first cheese sandwich lunch this year. SHE did not bring home her lunch account notice which is given out every week. She went in the red and knew it and then low and behold she couldn't charge anymore and she got it. We aren't eligible for free or reduced lunch. We pay full price. I told her that it was her responsibility to bring that note home to us and that it was her inaction that caused the lunch.

Don't ASSUME that every child that gets a cheese sandwich sack lunch is a free student. WRONG! I also scan which is the cash register to some of you, just doesn't take money anymore. The free and reduced students are NOT the ones getting the cheese sandwich. It's the students who are full price. Many times they get extra this, that and the other thing and we sell extra's such as Gatoraid, Water, special milks, extra fries, extra sandwiches, extra almost anything. We have students that spend in excess of $5.00 a day on lunch. The tray line is a set lunch. The alacarte is a sandwich, pizza, nachos, nuggets, fries or tots on fry days, milk and juice and a full salad bar. That all comes for $2.10.

These threads on this issue have really made me see that not a lot of you, not even teachers really know what's going on in your lunch room.

The child in the story is a rare case in that her family actually was eligible? for a free lunch and in the process of getting it?

Once you are free or reduced, there isn't ANY MORE cheese sandwiches. That's only for the full pay students.

[madfloridian]

248. We will have to agree to disagree.

It really is as I said...not about a sandwich at all. It's about setting up two different lunches...one costs no more than the other and is meant to show that the student is behind in payments.

Please don't tell me I did not know the system.

[fedupwithbush]

256. Do you have access to the cost of the lunches?

I do. It is about cost.

Oh and the teachers expect extra without being charged at our school. They also don't have to follow the same rules as the students on what they have to have. They bump students to get their lunch too.

I wouldn't be a teacher for love nor money. I think they are great and could NEVER do what they do. However that doesn't stop them from being hypocrits sometimes. Do as I say, not as I do? type thing.

As I stated before the sack lunch costs us .90 and the full meal 2.10. You do the math.

Get back to me when you can explain why people who don't qualify for free and reduced don't bring their money to school. Again, it ISN'T the free and reduced getting these lunches. It's 99.9 percent the full price students.

Better yet, go work in the lunch room for a while and find out what you don't know.

[madfloridian]

283. The OP was NOT teachers vs lunchladies.

It was not intended that way.

It was about allowing creeping heartless conservatism to play a role in school lunches.

It did not have to be done that way.

[fedupwithbush]

324. What way should it be done?

The children are not subjected to that vile? sack lunch until they run in the red in our school district. They have their card taken when they go zero but can still charge for a couple of days by getting a slip from the office. These are only full pay students, mind you.

And since you haven't read my previous responses to other threads.

My daughter got that cheese sandwich this year. She failed to bring home her lunch account sheet for several days. It wasn't until they gave her the cheese sandwich, she told me she needed lunch money.

She eats breakfast most days and lunch every day. I send extra but don't always send it every two weeks as we have days off.

So should you feel sorry for her?

I don't. We sat and talked about it on the day she got it. She has to understand that she has to pay her bills or we do, on time, if she wants to eat. Otherwise she should understand the consequences. She's 11.

I've also had to take my son's lunch card from him when I was scanning at his school. He forgot to tell me his account was low and he went in the red and I took his card. He cried and it hurt but he needed to learn that lesson. I was in a position where I could have gave him the card back and went to the office after work and paid. But he needed to know that I wasn't playing favorites. I've seen school personnel give their families extra's for free and I don't like it. It just goes to being poor and seeing people with influence and money get more of everything. I don't want my children to expect extra unless they give extra.

I gotta quit. These threads make me want to scream.

I've been on DU from the first sign up at C-SPan in 2000 or 2001? I've posted rarely. But read here 3 times a day.

I've been extremely poor when I was growing up. I know what it is to be hungry. My husband and I both were first to go to college in our families. I didn't graduate because I chose to help my husband get more than one degree, pay off our school debt and I got to stay home when our kids were born because we decided they were more important than having a lot of extra money.

But you all have to understand. No one can feed every child indefinitely without consequences. The people who can pay and have been told they have to pay respectfully and repeatedly can't be overlooked.

Next, maybe you need to choose what is more important at school. A free lunch for EVERY child or a great teacher or the equipment like computers they need to get ahead in life.

[madfloridian]

331. If that is what you believe, then that is your right.

It is the new conservative America, after all.

I did not post this to be appreciated or agreed with. I posted it because it is discrimination.

[fedupwithbush]

352. Discrimination against whom?

So now the school has to give EVERY child a free hot lunch no matter what their circumstances?

Where do you draw the line?

Food isn't free, lunch room staff aren't free and I'm sure neither was your salary as a teacher. Somebody has to pay.

I want my children to get the best education they can. I will feed them no matter what I have to do. But when they go to school, my first want is that they get the best the district can offer in teachers, equipment and materials. I'll send the cheese sandwich, if it comes to that.

I don't want them to not know how to add. I don't want them to not know how to read. I don't want them to not know how to use a computer in this day and age. I don't want them to not know how to debate, work hard and do the BEST they can.

The cheese sandwich is a symptom, not a problem. If you as a parent can't or WILL NOT fill out the paperwork for free or reduced lunches or you do not qualify for it, I don't and can't feel a lot of sympathy for you.

I'd send my children to school even if we didn't have a lunch program. I went to a school without one myself.

Oh yeah, I had my children at 36 and 37.

I never felt like we could afford to bring children into the picture until I turned 30. It took 6 years and a miscarriage for the first, the second was a breeze. I wasn't going to bring a child into our lives unless I saw that we could afford them. Or at least it felt like we might have a chance to afford them.

They are awesome kids, straight A's for the 11 year old girl and A's and B's for our first born son. Both are artistic. Our son plays drums and our daughter sings. They really are great.

I love that I work around the kids at school. My job is hard compared to working for newspapers in the past. I use my body a lot instead of my brain which is my first choice. But I wouldn't trade it right now. I hope I don't have to. I get to be home with my children, take vacations in the summer with my husband. Even if I went back to work today at my original profession I wouldn't have the time off he does and we would have to wait years for those family vacations.

Cheese sandwich, bologna, tuna, peanut butter and jelly all taste pretty good when you are hungry. Or maybe a mayo and bread or just bread and maybe butter.

[madfloridian]

384. I presented my case, you disagree.

I am not surprised that many think I am wrong. I heard a person speaking on TV yesterday, really did not pay enough attention to catch who it was....but what was said caught my attention.

He said the DC insiders and the media are still working and moving along in the Bush conservative mindset.

He's right. They did a great job on this country.

They have made people afraid of thinking it is good to be looking out for one another.

They have made it sound like "socialism".

We can have a good education, and kids can have full tummies. We as a country have lost our priorities.

We really do disagree.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

459. Where exactly do i fit into your view

We had something similar at my school, i tended to pocket the money i got from home for the milk and lunch.

Way i saw it was that i got a two slices of bread with something on, and a piece of fruit for free. So i had both money for what i wanted and i got something to eat(water is always free as well so was happy with that over the milk)

And while I'm not in school any longer i live less then 5 mins away and i regularly hear pupils passing by talk about what they plan to buy when they have saved up enough lunch money

[madfloridian]

485. You don't.

Fit into my view on this topic, that is.

If you choose to live your life that way, and if your friends chose to do so...then I have no control over that.

[Stellabella]

342. Oh really?

"No one can feed every child indefinitely without consequences."

My husband and I are.

He is currently paying for at least 10 children at his school, who either cannot afford lunch, are too ashamed to fill out the free form, or come from such a dysfunctional family that filling out the form is just too much of a burden; I do not know why. We don't ask why. NO HUNGRY CHILDREN.

And he gives out free granola bars every day that I buy in bulk at the grocery store.

AND I make treats for the kids at least twice a week - usually cereal bars.

AND, the fact that you think we have to choose between 'a free lunch' OR 'a great teacher' OR 'equipment' shows just how uncivilized this country is and how far we have fallen.

[madfloridian]

383. Tell your hubby the kids will remember his kindness.

I used to spend so much on not just lunch money, but paper and pencils and so much other stuff the school did not provide....stuff the parents were unable to provide.

[Stellabella]

394. Thank you.

They already love him. These poor kids come from such broken families, and most are already on parole or have felony records. My dh loves teaching them.

[Tikki]

348. I see this as a top down problem....

Administration constantly talks about costs of doing for students..I am
sure all staff in a district get the 'pep talk' on how things (money) are tight.

I doubt many public school lunch programs make any kind of significant money over top of expenses.
Even if the district is mostly out of the lunch program, financially, I can see them
feeling the heat from parents and tax payers on why certain student expenses keep going up.

Here is the thing...the administration and the staff working in conjunction
with a school district need to communicate on what are the real needs of all their students.
Proper student nutrition is a real need.

Holding a student back to the end of lunch line and then telling them they are getting a separate lunch
with a cheese sandwich is not getting the message through to the parents (unless the parents happen
to be eating lunch with their child at the cafeteria that day). What this action does is set
the child up to be the intermediary between the cafeteria (or school or district office) and this child's
parents.

I know how busy any school program can be...if you have made $5.00 or two and a half non-paid lunches
as the limit.... have your district or school designate speak to the parents at that point.

If a child in our school district was absent for two and a half days and no one from home had called the school..
the school would not send a brother or sister home to tell the parents to get in touch with the school about the absence.


Tikki

[Tikki]

250. Many lunch programs are run on a tight budget....

You are correct...

It sounds like your your cafeteria budget is separate from the rest of your
district's school budget?

I found that most students that were continuing to be chronic in
lunch payment debt had emerging financial issues at home.

It's kind of built into children to not want to be the kid with family issues.

Skilled and sensitive adults know how to handle these situations the best way possible
for the student.


Tikki

[wtmusic]

381. Thanks for your perspective

but honestly, you're getting in the way of everyone's self-righteousness...you might want to take your "facts" somewhere else ;-)

[Shakespeare]

391. Thank you for this post--it helps to understand how things actually operate.

:thumbsup:

[Daemonaquila]

421. The math is underwhelming.

So... taking for granted that every lunch is a savings of $1.20, and taking even a class of 100 students per grade, and assuming a ridiculous proportion (10%) of the grade haven't paid on a particular day, that saves...$12.20 per day. Maybe. Over a full year, you've saved about $2,000. Not impressive. You could easily save the same money in other ways, such as making all the lunches a bit more modest (or would doing so admit that the cheese sandwich lunch sack is less healthy/unappetizing/inferior in too many ways?).

More importantly, the money could be made up by:
* Dealing with the parents directly instead of humiliating the kids and hoping that gets results.
* Dealing with the students kindly and confidentially, to get their help in getting their parents to resolve the problem.

A teacher/school staff member humiliating a student is bullying in the context of a massive power differential - and it's also extremely lazy. I doubt that so many people would be as open to the same kind of bullying if, say, it was in the context of teachers "trying to teach responsibility" to female students whose pads/tampons had leaked onto their clothes, or publishing the names and scores of the students who flunked their tests "to give them incentives to study harder," or make them sit out on the sidelines in gym because they aren't skilled enough to be bothered with teaching. The lunch thing is ok why? Because money is involved? Capitalism triumphs uber alles?

You don't teach kids responsibility by kicking them out of proportion to their mistake - assuming it was even their doing - but by giving them an example they want to emulate. The people who came up with the idea of pulling kids out to give them a visibly different lunch are the same sort of sadistic asshats who abuse their workers then whine that they aren't getting any respect. They don't have to be creeps to get the job done. They just like to do it that way because it's easy - and for some it's even a little fun. Too bad that the kids they humiliate are learning the lesson that this is the right way to treat others.

[Maru Kitteh]

445. 5 whole fucking dollars in the RED? OMFG.

:banghead:

[closeupready]

232. Thank you. It's a twisted game people on power trips enjoy playing.

What's esp. pathetic is they play it with defenseless children. Sickening.

[Chorophyll]

233. K&R. Thank you. nt

[noiretextatique]

234. point duly noted: it's amazing that so many people think punishing

poor and/or hungry children is perfectly fine, especially if their parent(s) didn't fill out a form. it is a sad commentary.

[skeewee08]

237. Agree! As a former 5th grad teacher you ROCK!

[lumberjack_jeff]

245. What kind of "family background" (aside from low income) mitigates for not feeding your kids?

... since low income gets kids a free lunch.

It's not the school's job to subsidize a family's grocery bill.

[closeupready]

253. But it is the school's job to teach children, and hungry children don't learn.

Or at least, not as well as they could on a full stomach. Regardless of whether you like that or not, schools have to address the big picture for the sake of making young members of the community better people. If that means they have to feed hungry kids, so be it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

258. What about clothes? Kids get ostracized for wearing uncool clothes.

Surely if the school has a responsibility to spare the kids from the sandwich of shame they have the same responsibility for clothes.

This parenting stuff is getting easier all the time!

[closeupready]

259. No, just food. You obviously have never really been hungry.

n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

261. The point of the OP isn't hunger.

A cheese sandwich will tide a person over until (s)he gets home.

[closeupready]

272. I know that.

I was responding directly to your own posts.

[lumberjack_jeff]

284. No, you weren't.

You were constructing a strawman.

And BTW, suffice to say, if a cheese sandwich was the worst indignity I had to suffer as a child, it would have been much more pleasant.

If I give the impression of having never been hungry... yay. As a 5 year old in the projects of LA, I adopted that as one of my life goals.

If a parent is too poor to feed their kids lunch, fill out the damn form.

[TwilightGardener]

262. Who's going hungry? The kids still get a decent lunch.

Just not the hot lunch--you have to have money in your account for that (if you're full price).

[closeupready]

273. I know that.

I was responding directly to his posts.

[knitter4democracy]

260. Not everyone gets the free lunch.

Some get a subsidized lunch, and those families are definitely hurting, too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

267. No, not everyone.

However, I was surprised to find that my own kids qualify for free lunch.

The youngest is extremely picky because of his autism, so we almost always pack him a lunch anyway.

Someone upthread pointed out that there are only three reasons why a kid eats a cheese sandwich:
a) low income parents don't fill out the form
b) un-poor parents forgot to send money with the kid
c) the kid chose the cheese sandwich so he could pocket the money

[knitter4democracy]

278. I would add another one.

D) Subsidized lunch kid's parents haven't filled their account lately and didn't know it was empty.

Our school district uses a website that lets you put money in your kids' lunch accounts for a $2 transfer fee (which is more than the lunch costs per day), so most of us don't use it and try to remember to send money with the kids when we think they're getting low.

[TBF]

255. Crazy that this OP has so many reponses - it should be one very long

list of K&R's. The one thing all of us should be able to agree on is that children should be fed a healthy lunch, no matter who is buying. In fact, it might be a better system to have ALL public schools offer a healthy hot lunch (and I don't mean one ketchup packet) to all children every day, as part of going to school (ie taxes pay for it). If they want different food they could bring their own lunch. I would love to see my tax money go for something like that rather than subsidizing the growth of opium in Afghanistan.

[kimmerspixelated]

292. My thoughts exactly!

Well said!

[MessiahRp]

317. I'm noticing some of the usual suspects up above that are once again causing chaos...

They post in every thread where liberal/progressive (i.e. caring about others) values are posted and show themselves to be the high post count freeper trolls they are.

Let me just throw this out there right now. Cut the Pentagon budget to pre-Bush territory ($330 billion) and you can fix schools, provide art/music classes and better education overall, free lunch, free breakfast, reduced after-school care and probably have a shit ton left to pay down our debt and invest in Universal Healthcare.

Of course that would be America taking care of it's people instead of everyone taking care of only themselves.

How come only in times of war are we in this together? Republicans and DLCers only care about the public collective if it means killing other people. The rest of the time I guess everyone else should just piss off.

Rp

[TBF]

321. Excellent post - I agree completely. nt

[unapatriciated]

457. I actually went to a public school that did just that....

They only had one rule, no desert until you finished your veggies.
On days we had cooked spinach a kid named Robert was very popular, everyone wanted to sit at his table.......he loved spinach.

We started privatizing our public schools food programs to be "more cost effective" and just like health care it became more about profit than nutrition.

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=6422

Food for thought: Privatizing school lunches may impair learning

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Public schools that use private food services may not save much money. Worse yet, they may be hurting student performance, says a University of Michigan researcher.

A new study by Roland Zullo, assistant research scientist at the U-M Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations, suggests that schools in Michigan that use private companies to prepare and serve lunch and often breakfast to their students realize no significant cost savings.

While public schools that privatize their food operations save about 15 percent on labor and 4 percent on food, they end up spending 11 percent more on contractor fees and 4 percent more for supplies, Zullo says.

[onlyadream]

264. Cheese sandwiches will be more common

These days more and more kids are going to be pulled from the lunch line, sadly. They're just kids and they don't understand - these women should be publically embarassed (who knows, maybe some Karma will make its way to them).:shrug:

[Grinchie]

266. It's just another mechanism of Control

Shame has always been an important control mechanism for parent and social control. Furthermore, when shame is imposed by the parent, what can the child do? He can repress the anger towards the parent into the subconscious, because the child is dependant on the parent. He or she simply has no choice in the matter, so the will has to take a back seat to survival.

When this cycle repeats over and over again, without any release of the conflict, the child grows up with supressed anger, which can lead to unpredictable psychosis, self destructive behavior, or other behaviors dangerous to society, like following orders blindly, because the will has effectively been nullified by years of abuse, and the training to always believe the father figure, patriarch or state.

We are not aware of the abuse of our parent, because it is repressed as a survival instinct. Sometimes, you get a chance to look at your life objectively, and are finally able to see how badly you were manipulated by both parents in order to conform.

I highly recommend the book "For Your Own Good" by Alice Miller. I was cleaning out our storage pile, and among all the woderful books of my partner, this one connected with me, and I read it. It changed my life, because it put into perspective the Reductionist, Scientific method of Child rearing that has been in place since the 1800's. When I saw that the techniques of shames, misdirection, punishment and abuse have been around for centuries, promoted by memeber of the Church I was flabbergasted. Some of the ancient text reprinted in the book will be recognizable to everyone that has gone to any school, experienced discipline for their parents, or have experienced people that are quite toxic in their behavior.

Get this book, prepare to cry a lot when you realize what has been done to you, then get ready to take control of your life, forgive the perpetrators, and shock them to hell when the now recognizable forms of manipulation are attempted on you in the future. They will be devastated that the tried and true means to manipulate you have been deactivated, and that your own free will has taken over.

The important point is to forgive, and not punish the tormentors/manipulators, but to move on and take control of your own life.

The conservative's depend on obedience and loyalty. The human organism depends on the individual identity, and the two don't really mix that well. While we can all work together, just the the cells in our body that perform specific functions, it does not mean that we need to follow the orders of a Cancerous growth.

Alice Miller is very cool. Read her books and you will see a pretty good explanation on how the Nazi's were able to coerce seemingly sane, intelligent people do do what they did in WWII.

[valerief]

268. Let's whip 'em while we're at it, too, for having poor parents!

:sarcasm:

[SoxFan]

275. Mmm...cheese

[BrightKnight]

340. Let them eat cake. - n/t

[redqueen]

277. THANK YOU!

Sickening to see it embraced by so many people on this board... but what else should we expect after 28 years of non-stop conservative bullshit, right?

[Hekate]

285. I'm so sorry. I did not know. I honestly thought it was about food, & didn't know the public shaming

... that was served as the main dish.

Jesus.

No wonder there was such a fight.

Hekate

[Norrin Radd]

287. kr

[BrightKnight]

289. The SBP / NSLP need to be fixed if there is a gap that large in 1 district.

Perhaps the parents can't read, cant read English, have a reason to fear the government, or are just plain irresponsible. I don't really care about the parents. You could hire social workers to get to the bottom of every case or just find a way to solve the problem.

The State is spending a lot of money to educate these children. It is well known that nutrition makes a big difference. The average cost of a school lunch is less than $2. I'll give up a lot of worthy programs before I let a child go hungry.

[Mollis]

293. K&R

Great post. I completely agree with you.

[Chorophyll]

295. Error: You've already recommended that thread.

I can't imagine a more basic, DEMOCRATIC issue than seeing to it that every child in this country is fed properly.

If there are problems at home, the school is a perfect place to pick up the slack. Raise my property taxes to do it! I won't whine about it, because I'm a Democrat, and to have any child go hungry in my city is anathema to me.

Additionally, no child should be humiliated by any adult, for any reason, ever.

[Demoiselle]

302. Dear Mad Floridian...Thank you.

I've just read through this thread and can't believe it's on DU. Everything's been said, really, so I just want to thank you for all your contributions to the site and tell you I'm with you. Actually I think school lunches should be free for all children. Hey, they're our CHILDREN. They are ALL our children. The ONLY FUTURE WE'VE GOT IS OUR CHILDREN. We know how important nutrition is to growing minds and bodies.. Important, hell, it's an absolute necessity for our country, right up there with universal health care and the right to unionize. I assumed we were in agreement on the basics on on this site. If that makes me a Socialist then I'm a Socialist. .

[TBF]

304. I've decided I'm quite proud to be a socialist. Unions, healthcare, food -

these should not be things only available to the monied class. Notice how no one screamed "socialism" when they wanted the government to bail out their 401k's and investment banks. I may be getting too left for this website as well. Which is really sad.

[bvar22]

309. You are not getting "too left".

DU has become infested with "Centrists".

"Centrism"....for those who are proud to be Half-Republican.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans. I want us to compete for that great mass of voters that want a party that will stand up for working Americans, family farmers, and people who haven't felt the benefits of the economic upturn."---Paul Wellstone

[Demoiselle]

314. I can't pretend to be a DU expert, but..

I've never seen so many arguments that sound far to the right (by my standards) as I've seen on this particular thread. Let's hope it's an aberration, give DU a little more time, and if the rightward turn becomes the norm around here, we can form a web site called "TooLeftforDU.com." I hope I'm only kidding.

[TBF]

320. You ought to buy the domain name. :) n/t

[Hello_Kitty]

325. I've noticed it too. I dropped out of DU for almost 2 years and came back recently.

And while for the most part it's still the same bunch of commies I knew and loved I am noticing some startlingly right wing-ish arguments here. I'm wondering if it's because the Dems won so decisively in 2008 so people no longer feel like the beleagured opposition.

[MessiahRp]

337. It's likely more Republicans ashamed of being called Republican

So now with nowhere left to turn they call themselves Democrats and come to places like DU to force their Republican values down our throats. DLCers and Blue Dogs are party parasites in Congress and I pretty much think the same of them here.

Rp

[Hello_Kitty]

344. Good point.

I know quite a few DINOs, DLCers, and "pro-business" Dems IRL and have concluded they are essentially Republicans who are pro-choice and pro-gay rights.

[AndrewP]

367. Well said.

[Kurovski]

307. K&R. (nt)

[noiretextatique]

318. madfloridian

you are right...this is the result of rw brainwashing. i am really having a hard time understanding why any adult would support a school policy that humiliates certain children. i just don't get it.

[dmr]

323. We can date this insanity back to Reagan's catchup as a vegetable

I had to stop reading this thread for all the uncaring responses.

It is a fact that in America there are children whose life is dependent upon their school lunches (and breakfasts). These children would be malnourished, and in some cases go hungry until their next lunch.

For whatever anyone may think of why a parent cannot or does not provide for their children's dietary needs cannot and should not be discussed before the children, nor their classmates.

To the naysayers, if you have ever worn the shoes of these children or witnessed the devastation of a child, you'd be thinking differently.

Poor children already face a multitude of concerns in their short lives, and the least we can do as humanitarians is to embrace them the best we can. If they are malnourished, or just plain hungry, they cannot learn.

I volunteered in a grade school whose first priority was the children. They made their school a safe haven. We had one little boy with a deceased mother who lived alone with his over-worked and overwhelmed father. The school embraced this 6 year old - with the dad's knowledge.

Each morning in the administrative bathroom, they quietly made sure he was washed, teeth brushed, wore clean clothes (including underwear, as he did not wipe well), and his hair shampooed and combed. The school staff provided him with school and art supplies, breakfast, lunch and something to take home to eat later. They took him out for hair cuts, burgers and ice cream. They got him a Big Brother. He ate breakfast, sat in class, and had lunch with the other kids - kids who did NOT know his hardships. They never got a chance to see his upheaval and very stinky state of being. NEVER! Children are cruel beings to one another. Children measure their sense of self through their peers. That is a cruel fact.

This school did this recognizing that children are flesh and blood and are our future, and if they can nurture that future and the heart and self-esteem of a child the rewards are immeasurable.

Too many people have come out of the Reagan era either not experiencing or knowing how the cruelties of this world and the impact it has on the lives of society in general. So many scoffed at Hillary Clinton in the 90's of "It Takes A Village" to raise a kid. Gone are the days when we look out for our children and one another. Sad so many here don't see it or understand it.

Too many people worry only about themselves, not caring what may be happening to their brother down the road, and then these same people wonder why the world has gone to hell in a hand-basket.

Catchup as a vegetable, my ass.

[unapatriciated]

403. I said the same thing ( not as articulate as you) in another thread....

and was accused of reinforcing the message that eating a cheese sandwich was a badge of shame, and was told shame on me. Some just don't understand that it is not about the cheese sandwich, it was about involving and burdening young children with adult problems. Yes children can be very cruel, adults do not need to give them more ammo. When my son was 13 he became ill with dermatomyositis, an autoimmune disease that attacks skin and muscle tissue. The earliest symptoms (before he was diagnosed) were skin rashes and what appeared to be dirty skin (rapidly dying skin cells). His classmates were cruel but one teacher was even crueler calling him dirty rash boy. My son wanted out of his class but wouldn't tell me why, when I found out the reason, I was furious. This teacher even after being informed that my son was ill and it was not a lack of hygiene continued to call him rash boy. Too many people lack empathy and yes I pulled him from that classed and filed a formal complaint.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3755446&mesg_id=3759272

[mia]

330. First hand experience from my Florida classroom...

School cafeterias make money from selling extra "treats" - the cookies, chips & ice cream that are sold for a dollar a pop.

Most of the students in my class are on the free or reduced lunch plan and most of them bring extra dollars for the additional treat. At the beginning of the year I noticed that the kids weren't finishing their lunches, so I made my own rule that they could only buy treats on Fridays when pizza is usually served.

Yesterday, one of my five year olds was given the cheese sandwich. The cashier reached behind the cash register where the treats are kept and gave him a Capri Sun juice and a sandwich wrapped in foil. The kids right behind him in line wanted what he had. I think that the cafeteria staff handled the situation kindly. I do think that this could still be humiliating for an older student who understands what is going on.

I know that this child's account ran out of money early because of the junk food that is sold to the kids. They have been deducting the cost of his treats from the lunch account that is replenished by his parents. Today he brought 4 quarters and they gave him the pizza lunch, even though the price of lunch is $1.75.


Teachers are charged $3.00 for the same amount of food that the kids receive, by the way. I kid the cafeteria manager that we teachers are subsidizing the food program in the public schools.

This school serves free breakfast to all students. Teachers pay $2.00.

[Venceremos]

332. My kids got the cheese sandwiches

countless times because either I forgot to give them lunch money or they didn't turn in their lunch money on purpose. They would check the hot lunch menu the week before, and if they didn't like what was on it, they didn't turn in their lunch money so they could have the cheese sandwiches instead.

There's no shame in it as our school, it just means your parents are forgetful or you don't like the hot lunch menu. And our school has a subsidized lunch program so low income kids never get the cheese sandwich.

And our school has had the cheese sandwich program since the Clinton administration. So although I don't like Bush, I don't think cheese sandwiches amount to the evil conservatives conspiring against poor kids.

[madfloridian]

333. The new America.

As witnessed at DU when a cheese sandwich becomes more than a sandwich.

It is used as food for those who can't afford to pay, though it is not even sensible.

It's how we are here in America now.

We are tough and mean and everybody else better be as well.

The Reagan and Bush Doctrines live and thrive here now.

[Stellabella]

343. THANK YOU for this.

And shame on any and all of you who think that treating poor children like second class citizens is just fine.

[fascisthunter]

345. there seem to be a vocal few who didn't get enough love

or can't possibly feel it themselves and think punishment or hard stances somehow help. Maybe it did for them, and it's all they know and ever want to know. Very strange... I think these people should move to countries that do as they say, such as a third World fascist country.

[InvisibleTouch]

359. There's no reason at all to humiliate the kids...

...to call their names harshly and pull them out of line and the like. But there's also no reason not to give them their cheese sandwich and not make a big deal of it. Or, gods forbid, they could pack their own lunch. Likely cheaper and healthier.

So, while I don't think it's an outrage that unpaid lunch accounts are still filled with a decent meal (albeit a cold one), I don't support treating the kids like criminals.

[Lost-in-FL]

363. This always sounded like a punishment to me. nt

[Jamastiene]

364. Thank you.

I was a poor kid and had to do without a lot. The other kids never understood why I didn't have the latest and the greatest in everything. I was lucky to have teachers like you who stood up and made sure kids got the same kind of lunch regardless of economic circumstances. It made a world of difference. Children should not be singled out and punished as "wrong" or "bad" because they are poor. Thank you for standing up. I hope the policy changes nationwide to let all kids eat a warm meal in school. It may be the only warm meal they get all day.

[femrap]

372. I love cheese sandwiches!

Cheese is expensive....just as expensive as meat if not more so.

We need to teach the poor kids to be proud....I'd be running around with my cheese sandwich yelling, 'I'm poor and proud. You're rich and hated.'

No one has a sense of humor anymore.

[AwakeAtLast]

375. I hope I'm not too late for this important discussion

And it is very important.

In my school district they don't have a cheese sandwich - it's peanut butter, on bread, no jelly (Gawd forbid!) and a carton of milk. That's IT. But here's what gets me. We also offer an "alternate" lunch for those who don't like the hot lunch offered. What is the alternate? A PEANUT BUTTER SANDWICH!!! However, the children who choose the alternate also get the fruits and vegetables that come with the hot lunch. You can't tell me that the "bag" lunch kids could not also be given the rest. Seriously, WTF?

Having said that, I do know that before my district started this process the cafeteria was about $100,000 in the hole. They studied those who owed the most and found the they were people who were nowhere near the poverty line. Basically they were getting away with it because they could. So the school district implemented this plan, recouped their money, and I suppose that was their original intent, but at what real cost? :shrug:

[Maat]

378. There's no excuse for failing to provide a free breakfast and lunch ..

to each child that requests it; I want my tax dollars to stop going to pay for U.S. Empire. I want to go towards providing children nutritional meals - period.

[proud2BlibKansan]

388. I just don't think this is that big of a deal, and you know I am a teacher too

First of all, we are on the lunch apps all the time so we honestly don't have any kids without one on file at my school. Plus there is now a rule that 100% of your kids can have free my lunch if a certain minimum qualifies (I think it's 80%?). So once we get the lunch applications in, we're done with that application business for the year.

But before we did this, we would give kids pnut butter sandwiches for lunch when they owed money and it was no big deal. I don't think any parent ever complained. And it wasn't demeaning to the kids either but maybe we just handled it better at my a school.

It blows my mind that so many threads are posted on this topic. There's a war on, our economy is collapsing, there is a missing blonde woman somewhere tonight and we are talking about school lunch programs? :crazy:

[madfloridian]

396. It's not about a school lunch program. It's not about a cheese sandwich.

It's about the mindset in our country that doesn't recognize what we owe each other and the children we teach.

[proud2BlibKansan]

410. And I think it's about parents who are failing their kids

by either not fillng out the lunch app or sending money for lunch.

[Stinky The Clown]

389. I said this a while back

I got flamed

You're right

Things have changed

[carlyhippy]

390. I had a teacher in the early 70's who

would call the kids up to her desk by name and have them get their free lunch tickets. Talk about being singled out. I hated cafeteria food most days that year, and most of the time brought my own lunch. She was an old crow, hope in another life she is a pauper, she deserves it.

[No.23]

411. The familiar tools of shame and guilt.

Many of our parents used them against us.

When we weren't acting according to their requirements.

They shamed and attempted to make us feel guilty, so that we would change our ways.

It's not a Republican thing.

It's not a political mindset either.

It's simply a carryover or extension of how many of us were treated.

We tend to parent according to how were were parented.

And the old, familiar tools of shame and guilt have been around for a long time.

So here's the lesson in this story, I submit.

The hope for our future lies in our willingness to stop shaming and making our young ones to feel guilty.

So that they won't grow up to do the same with the next generation of American citizens.

[Jim Sagle]

413. I can't imagine any real Democrat taking any other view.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

415. "This is my Cheese and this is my Bread".

"Talk shit about either one and you'll end up dead"! - official pledge of the DU Cheese Sandwich Defense Force :patriot:

[IsItJustMe]

420. Fucking eletists don't have a fucking clue what that feels like.

[bottomtheweaver]

428. Very thoughtful post.

I was going to say, there's food for thought..

[horseshoecrab]

434. thanks

"It's about embarrassing children needlessly when it would be just as economically sound to feel them a regular lunch."

and thanks again.

horseshoecrab

[inchhigh]

446. Oh those crazy fiscal conservatives......increasing spending again

I'm sure they are arguing they must do this because the district can't afford to feed those kids for free. I have to wonder though, what happens to the food these kids would have eaten if their bills had been paid? Presumably the kitchen cooked enough to feed them, since they couldn't have known how many kids with empty lunch accounts would be in line that day. Did they just trow away the extra food? If they did cook enough to feed these kids and then made them a cheese sandwich also, didn't that actually cost EXTRA money? Could we sue our local district for spending extra money to enforce their draconian "no free lunch" agenda?

[democrank]

450. I`ve got an idea....

How about we stop paying for Blackwater-type mercenaries in Iraq and feed hungry children at home?

[itubeutubewealltub]

460. What is this? We try to protect children from every little twinge of embarrassment...

No more trophies (it singles out the superior students and athletes and makes other kids "feel bad") or EVERYONE gets a trophy.

What happens when the real world hits them squarely in the face? Since when did a little adversity become totally off limits?

[Realityhack]

491. I don't think that is what the OP is saying at all.

IMO the issue is that it is intentional shaming of the children specifically to force a behavioral change in the parents.

[mntleo2]

464. Poverty is a racist sexist System, see my comments here::

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5151065&mesg_id=5155396.

Beginning with the taxes the poor and middle class pay. Poverty has been a systematic, racist, and sexist way to keep things as they are for the benefit of the rich beginning the the burden of more taxes on the middle class and poor (including small businesses). Then it went on to dismantle the safety net that used to be an entitlement for all Americans by taking away the entitlements connected to Social Security called The Personal Responsibility Act or as many call it, Welfare DeFormed.

A great deal of middle income folks who embraced the demonetization of the poor, did not realize that this act was meant for them, yes the middle class, for whom the elite hoped would come into poverty next. Widespread poverty enriches even more the rich. It is an economic fact.

If you think laws in this country are just for one certain class of citizens such as Welfare DeFormed seemed to be aimed at just the poor as many believed at the time, well you are wrong. Laws apply to everyone, at least in theory.

Tho I would say that the elite seem to assume and often do not have to abide by the laws the rest of us have to live by. Welfare DeFormed was written by rich white men who wanted to keep their own entitlements and take away everyone else's, and when they wrote it they well knew, this law was meant for ALL.

I am *not* making this up.

Love
Cat In Seattle

[madfloridian]

471. Good points. Middle class the new poor....let them eat cheese now.

Some who disagree with my view now may change their minds in the future. :hi:

[mntleo2]

473. Sad to say, this is what the rich want ~ let them eat cheese!

... I hope the ones who griped the most about your post realize THEY ARE NEXT. It won't matter if they are white males anymore because suddenly poverty is "not racist" and there is no law against being classist so now we are all grouped under the same banner as "po' trash" who are the ones who are at fault for making all the wrong choices, doncha know. Little do they realize ~ THEY ARE NEXT. It won't matter that their parents are/were middle class. THEY ARE NEXT. It won't matter that their jobs are going overseas as they have for the last nine years, almost a decade and they stayed quiet since it did not affect them. THEY ARE NEXT. It won't matter that the only jobs left are crappy pay jobs with no health care, retirement or benefits, just the minimum wage. THEY ARE NEXT. Worse they think THEY pay a lot of taxes ~ look at what the poor pay: http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/text.pdf . They do not seem to realize that they actually are paying for their own funerals 'cos you guessed it: THEY ARE NEXT.

While these idiots embrace the demonetization of the poor, they just won't face it: THEY ARE NEXT! When they begin to whine about what is happening to them and begin to feel the shame and blame they heaped on everyone else and always thought was true for all but them, I will try to stay quiet, even though they were warned:

YOU WERE NEXT ...

Love
Cat

[fortyfeetunder]

475. I am surprised in this economy, people are making this an issue.

For goodness sakes here...I might be repeating others...

I ma really surprised there is a population who thinks its OK to punish children whose parents or guardians are not current on paying for school lunch. In these economic hard times perhaps the parents or guardians can't pay because they have no jobs or income to pay for lunch. And might not have money to even pack a lunch.

I agree with madfloridian's post --

What I'm observing is not compassionate conservatism, it's intolerant conservatism.

[barb162]

492. Here's the mom's web site and upcoming vacation news

http://www.darlenevigil.com/Home.htm

Check the link on "Fun."
She's got a web page but no money to feed her kids?
It's about screwed up parents who are willing to humiliate their own kids and scam the system, like this woman obviously is doing; meanwhile there are really needy out there who probably aren't getting all the help they really need.