Question for men please - why are these men doing this?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

Recently the news everywhere (including my own city) has been filled with the same situation. Men committing suicide, often due to the economic situation, but not before killing their wife and kids. Now I know that this is not something that most men would do. However, it's beginning to look as if every time a man decides to commit suicide, he's got to take his kids' lives and his wife's.

I know it's almost a verboten question. I almost feel like no one should ask this. I'm not sure who else to ask. I'm taking a risk asking it anyway. What is happening that these men don't just take their own lives and leave the kids alone? And the wife.

[cbayer]

1. I think they do it thinking they are saving their family from base poverty

and all that entails. They feel like failures as men, fathers and husbands. It is very, very tragic, IMO.

:(

[flvegan]

3. I agree with what cbayer said.

And yes, it is very, very tragic.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

16. Thank you, guys. You're the first people to tell me what it's all about nt

[BonnieJW]

I think it's a questions of abandonment.

They think they will be abandoning their families so they "take them with them" so they won't be left alone to fend for themselves. Bottom line: total despair.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. Very interesting. Yes, the caretaker failure and abandonment nt

[The Doctor.]

172. There is also this;

Think for a moment if you saw someone that loved you about to be hit by a speeding truck.

Which is the more selfish act;

To push them to safety and be killed, or to let them die?

When people are in abject despair, things don't always look like they do in a storybook.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

196. I know. :( And there's lots of anguish and despair right now nt

[neebob]

253. OR MAYBE ...

they just don't want to leave anyone behind to say they abandoned them, or about whom it can be said that they were abandoned, who can tell a more complete story and provide others with compelling reasons to continue talking about their failures and flaws, and who might demonstrate that life goes on and can even be much better without them.

Call me cynical.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

14. :( nt

[EFerrari]

23. Yes. It would be more "cowardly" to allow their families to live that way

without them. :(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. Wow! I'm amazed at what the answer turned out to be. Thank you everyone nt

[NewtonsAve]

216. Can't say the thought hasn't passed my own mind.

My fiancee doesn't deserve this, nor does our kitten, but then I stop and think that no matter how bad things get, no matter how "worse" it is, there's always a better, and that alone is a reason to live.

[Journeyman]

2. Perhaps its tied closely to their perception they must be the support of their family. . .

inculcated from childhood with this ideal, they can't bear the weight of their perceived "failure," what with job loss or crushing debt. Convinced they are the sole strength of their family (no matter what the wife's contribution now or in the past), they believe the family is incapable of survival without them. Rather than consign them to a slow death of economic deprivation, they opt to take them with them as they seek escape from their burden in oblivion.

Can't say for sure, I'm neither a psychologist nor well-versed in human aberration, but I suspect this may have something to do with it for some.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. You know, I hadn't even thought of that - I'm glad I asked the question nt

[Journeyman]

115. My wife just commented that some may do this because they don't want their wives. . .

and children to learn that they are a "failure," that they are incapable fulfilling their "role."


This brings to mind a quote from Kurt Vonnegut: "We are who we pretend to be, so we must be very careful who we pretend to be."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

118. Interesting - one could write so much about this! nt

[seabeyond]

32. you said it in a way, .... that makes sense. in the twisted sense.

thanks.

[AndyA]

4. I always thought in their own sick way, they were making sure the wife and kids didn't have

to suffer alone. It's really very sick. They kill the wife and kids because it would be worse, in their minds, to leave them alone. Sometimes it's because there's no money for them, sometimes it's because the world is so horrible, they don't want to leave them behind.

I really think when people get to that point they're much further gone than anyone suspects.

And really, after 8 years of Bush's "in your face" abuse, it seems to be getting worse. I think the frustration and anger builds slowly to the point where people just snap, and when that happens there's no turning back.

People always say they are shocked, and can't believe "he" would do such a thing. Rarely does anyone see it coming.

Very sad. I only hope they are all together in a much better place.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

22. :( :( nt

[Schema Thing]

5. I started to posit a theory...

but then realized: I'd really like to see the notes left behind (or a study of said notes), in the cases where there was a note, and the notes from the therapist in the cases where the men had been in therapy (I understand that might be a small percentage).

The truth is I'd just be guessing otherwise.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Thank you for answering anyway nt

[valerief]

6. Their wives and children are chattel, objects they own, in their minds, I believe. nt

[BoneDaddy]

10. of course you would

[BoneDaddy]

11. duplicate post

[Hannah Bell]

176. why don't they burn down their houses then, or torch their cars?

i don't think simplistic pseudo-feminism captures it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

198. That's also true nt

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. IIRC...

I read an article long ago that taked about just that. It seems these men view their primary role as "caretaker" of the family -- when they lose the ability to take care of their family finanically and suicide becomes their option, by killing the family and not leaving the family behind to fend for themselves is the man's new way of "caretaking" them. :(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

29. Yeah it seems to be the caretaker thing.... :( nt

[madokie]

35. or they don't want anyone to know just how sorry of an asshole they were in real life

with their real families. just ah thinkin outloud here
Its just all so sad and unnecessary

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. :( All I can say is it makes me wish there were no guns - what do you think of that? nt

[madokie]

92. I wish there were no guns

The only gun I own is is a bb gun. I'm just not one to impose my beliefs on another.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

114. I think the only guns allowed should be plastic guns that shoot a little banner that says.....

"___________ you!" lol That way you can let out your agressions and hurt no one.


:toast:

[madokie]

131. Peace

:toast:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

195. YEAH! :) nt

[BoneDaddy]

256. What a hateful

person you are...so fucking sad.

[GinaMaria]

208. ever see the kids movie Bugsy Malone?

Their machine guns shot whipped cream.

[CANDO]

263. I think it's a strong mixture of things.

They don't want to leave the family to fend for themselves, but also can't bear the thought that the wife finds another man who will be a better provider than he was. Another dimension would be the thought of another man potentially raising his kids. I think most men don't want any of those scenarios to play themselves out, so they take the whole family out with them. Sad.

[BoneDaddy]

8. Why do you think we would know this?

I am as baffled as you. I haven't seen an outbreak of this type of violence and if I saw one or two cases, it hardly could be associated with gender specific issue.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. Because altho both genders commit suicide of course, you do not see this....

in women.... I suggest you read through the enlightened responses so many men have given to this question. That might make you more aware than you are at present.

[BoneDaddy]

128. enlightened responses?

nice dig Sarah, but I have read too many of your posts to know that you really are not looking for an enlightened answer and often look to blame men as a gender.

Shame how easily you exploit tragedy to be so self serving.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

197. Oh so you come with an agenda! At least you identified it. That's appreciated nt

[BoneDaddy]

233. Do you realize how hypocritical you are?

If a woman did something horrific (or an african american or a jew etc..) and you asked the question Why do women (blacks or jews) do such horrible things as if there is something inherently wrong in that group, you would be shouted down. But because it is considered ok to make mass generalizations about men in here (totally unenlightened position btw) it is allowed.

Spare me. Nice response btw, did you think hard about it or did you realize I nailed your position quite easily.

[SteppingRazor]

9. I don't know that this is a specifically male problem.

According to the American Anthropological Assn., 200 women kill their children in the United States every year.

http://www.aaanet.org/press/motherskillingchildren.htm

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. A news anchor asked of her male co-anchor why it's men that do this....

He agreed with her that it was men that did this, but he had no idea as to the reason. Some of the men that responded to my question here, seem to think it's the caretaker thing.

[SteppingRazor]

48. I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that this isn't an exclusively male phenomenon.

Regardless of the opinion of an anchorwoman.

[valerief]

55. Women kill their husbands and children and then themselves in significant numbers?

Nah, they just kill the kids.

[SteppingRazor]

79. Ah, well, that's just fine then.

:P

[valerief]

137. Huh? It's a different issue than what the OP posed, which is family murder/suicide

done mainly by men.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

59. Here's the thing - it's a pattern. For example, breast cancer can be found also in men....

but it's almost always exclusive to women. Same thing with this. There's a pattern. My question was not is there a pattern, as there is. I saw the discussion on the news and they are aware that it's a pattern. My question was, why is there a pattern? To reiterate, murder is done by both genders. That wasn't my question. Read through the answers. You'll find them filled with depth and explanations, and definitely worth your while.

[SteppingRazor]

85. Actually, it's not the same as breast cancer in its gender relation.

In fact, fully half of all parental murders are committed by women.
Source: http://www.slate.com/id/2063086/


So, unlike breast cancer, which can happen to men but far more often happens to women, murder by a parent happens about equally between women and men.

Now, to get back to your question, I would say that the motives behind the murders are certainly different depending on gender, though certainly both are rooted in depression of some form.


On edit: n interesting paragraph from the above linked article, related to differences in motivation:

"Researchers, building on the work of Phillip Resnick, have shown that women tend to kill their own offspring for one of several reasons: because the child is unwanted; out of mercy; as a result of some mental illness in the mother; in retaliation against a spouse; as a result of abuse. Frequent themes are that they themselves deserved to be punished, that killing the children would be an altruistic or loving act, or that children need to be "erased" in order to save or preserve a relationship. Contrast this with the reasons men kill their children: Most frequently—like Garcia or Soltys—they kill because they feel they have lost control over their finances, or their families, or the relationship, or out of revenge for a perceived slight or infidelity. The consistent idea is that women usually kill their children either because they are angry at themselves or because they want to destroy that which they created, whereas more often than not, men kill their children to get back at a woman—to take away what she most cherishes."

[Sarah Ibarruri]

88. You want to argue this so it doesn't get discussed, and I'm wondering why.... nt

[SteppingRazor]

91. On the contrary, I'm trying to discuss it in the most even-minded manner I can.

I'm offering links and sourcing for everything I cite, and, in the edit to my above post, I even included a quote from the linked article that may help to answer your initial question.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

103. Either way, we have to fix our economy from the damage GOPers have done to it....

This damage is causing so much hurt, pain, anger, hunger, illness and death. :(

[SteppingRazor]

109. true that.

I've gotten cynical enough to think that "hurt, pain, anger, hunger, illness and death" is pretty much the natural state of the world, but that doesn't mean decent, moral human beings shouldn't do everything in their power to ease suffering in any way they can. :toast:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

113. I guess I'm too much of an optimist - maybe too dumb to look at reality?

However, I agree that people ought to do whatever can be done to help others.

And I'll drink to that!

:beer:

[SteppingRazor]

110. stupid duplicate posts.

:grr:

[Aragorn]

222. not much data

Read the link: Only "fact" is rate of murders being equal for either parent. Everything else is speculation based on speculative "studies". So lets quit avoiding depression as a medical issue. Look at the factual studies on that, as well as the factual studies on lack of treaters, lack of coverage, and lack of awareness. These are big reasons "no one saw it coming".

[sweetpotato]

126. But the women don't generally take out the husband, too

I don't think you're talking about the same thing.

[SteppingRazor]

127. True, and that's something talked about in the Slate article I posted upthread.

Real interesting read.

[FedUpWithIt All]

146. It may appear to be more men due to the factors leading into the increased rate. Money.

I do believe that woman have a history of doing this type of thing but possibly for different reasons.

Men often feel that they have a responsibility to their families to support them financially. Modern growth and understanding about a "male's role" have done little to curb the more base instinct relating to material care once a family faces dire financial circumstances.

We probably are going to see more of this type of thing in the months/years to come. Physical abandonment also historically increases in tough economic times, by both genders.

[treestar]

182. I remember reading about a single mother who did this

Years ago. But the rationale is the same if she was the sole support of the children.

[BoneDaddy]

254. He agreed because he is a neutered man

and has no real sense of self.

[cbayer]

62. This is an interesting article, but doesn't address the issues of postpartum depression

and psychosis. In the most publicized cases, this has been the determining factor, IMO.

I suspect that the men that kill their families before committing suicide are also very depressed, possibly to the point of psychosis.

:hi:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

84. Yeah, I think that when one loses everything, one doesn't behave rationally at all nt

[BoneDaddy]

255. Wow that must echo in the halls of your mind.

[Warpy]

63. It's more prevalent in other cultures

I remember a serious flap some years ago when a Japanese immigrant mother walked into the Pacific ocean with her two young children, both of whom drowned before rescuers could reach them. Her intention was the culturally approved one of ending her own life and taking her small children with her because motherless children have far less chance of survival under the world's usual circumstances. Unfortunately, I remember the court didn't respect this sort of thing and the US stigma applied to suicide and the murder of one's children in the process prevailed, as it should have.

What is particularly hideous to most of us in the male led murder suicides is the fact that an adult human being--the wife--is seen as dependent and incapable of ensuring the survival of the children without the male in question, who sees himself as hero and sole provider with no alternative available to his family. The man in question seems to have no idea that he's not alone in the world, the rugged individual, captain of his ship and sole proprietor of a woman and their children.

Suicide is a complicated issue. It's not always the fault of depression and it's not always the coward's way out. It's the one real choice we all have in our lives, no matter how country and church both object to it.

However, there is something grotesque in deciding someone else's life has as little value as your own.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Maybe we need to inculcate in our children, our boys, a different idea about

caretaking, jobs, families, wives, etc.?

[Warpy]

99. I think a lot of us have been trying to do that for a couple

of generations, along with raising non sexist boys who aren't afraid of the washing machine or stove.

Some of them are listening, but too many others allow the world outside to take over.

Unfortunately, the big bad world is still a patriarchal one.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

111. You're so right. My sister's been doing that with her kids but once they got out there....

they changed to suit the other now-grown boys, who were raised very patriarchally. I guess we all still have to live in the world. :crazy:

[Hannah Bell]

178. maybe we need to inculcate a different idea in our ruling class.

who have so little respect for the value of anyone's life v. their own wealth.

[Fire1]

139. Warpy, you read my mind.

[noiretextatique]

155. grotesque and arrogant

why not just kill yourself? that's what i think ever time i hear one about a murder/suicide.

[On the Road]

125. Women Killing Only the Children

would support the caretaker hypothesis. It just takes a different form.

[struggle4progress]

158. ... 90% of the perpetrators of murder-suicide are male ...

http://www.socialworkblog.org/helpstartshere/index.php/2008/10/23/about-domestic-homicide-and-murder-suicide/

[MuseRider]

12. Sarah

I was wondering the same thing just last week. I agree with post #1 but really do not know.

I would like to be able to make up my own mind about whether to go on or not. That is a pretty big decision to make for the rest of the family. How very tragic it all is.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. It's a horrible thing, and I was really curious - there had to be some reason I thought .....

... and maybe it is the caretaker thing, you know?

[Aragorn]

221. please

I AM a male, and a shrink, but I can't speak for these men. However, women do things like this too, they just use guns less often. And they seem to do it less often. So the answer is not psychological IMO. It is biological. Men are more likely to drink, to be violent, and (therefore) to own/use a gun. Less likely to admit need for depression help. (So some CULTURAL issues.) Caretaker issues? Not much of a factor.

Of course it is rare that anyone outside of maybe a shrink, preacher, etc knows much beyond the superficial. "He/she was such a nice person!"

Usually it is alcohol, severe mood disorder, and gun availability. Sorry if this is already posted somewhere, I could not read them all tonight.

[Old and In the Way]

13. As a man, I have no idea.

It's incomprehensible to me that a father would off his own kids. I understand jealousy and rage can drive a person insane to the point of killing their SO (which I think is not mutually exclusive of either sex)...but killing your children seems to be more prevalent with the father than the mother. I have no explanation except that there may be a greater biological/emotional connection that the mother has to the children than the father possesses.

[T Wolf]

15. I, for one, do not attribute "noble" motivation to these assholes. I think that they

have failed (as a provider, as a "man", whatever) and do not want to leave behind any evidence of that.

I just don't buy that they are trying to "spare" their family any hardship or humiliation. For males such as these, their family is an extension of their own egos.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. Thank you for your answer nt

[BoneDaddy]

257. Dont fall into the anti male self hate shit bro...sara

is a hate filled person who has her own agenda...she is a sad pathetic victim based loser.

[zagging]

17. Better title: Question for insane men please - why are these insane men doing this?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. No doubt they're not in a good place - I wondered like a certain news anchor who asked the same

question I did, why do men (not women). I mean, there are insane women, right?

[zagging]

47. Ya, who do the same stuff.

The only reasoning I can come up with is insanity.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. Nope. The anchors discussed it and it's a pattern. As much as we'd like it not to be....

it's a pattern, which is why I asked. And I got some amazingly good answers which I'm very thankful for. They spoke about the caretaking aspect. Read through them...

[zagging]

76. I guess they're all psychiatrists

I on the other hand, am not.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

82. The anchors? No, why do you say that? They were saying that it was a pattern....

... as to the internal workings of why it would be men doing it, and not women, neither the guy anchor nor the girl anchor knew.

[zagging]

95. But all the psychiatrists on this site know.

Obviously, since you got your answers. What is the pattern? You didn't provide much information.

[Parker CA]

50. DING, DING, DING!! First thing I thought was, 'because they're insane."

[BoneDaddy]

258. Better ask the insane women who start sucth threads

[Occam Bandage]

19. To protect them from the misery to which his failure has doomed them.

That's his justification.

[omega minimo]

183. To justify checking himself out and "dooming them" to misery, his best option is to kill them?

:thumbsdown: :puke:

[SoCalDem]

20. These things have always happened, but unless you lived in that community you did not know about it

with Cable "news", they make it sould like an epidemic..

depressed people do not think rationally, and it's entirely possible that the person who is killing themselves, thinks they need to "take everyone".. irrational, but they are not thinking clearly to start with :(

[Sarah Ibarruri]

64. No doubt that these situations begin with depression, job loss, etc. nt

[Iggo]

21. Fuck if I know.

Seems like a punk-ass way to do it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. I know nt

[madokie]

25. don't know

I think thats probably sorta out of sorts as the taking of ones life is one thing and not very newsy where as when someone does and they take others with them that is something entirely different and more newsy. When its the immediate family its, well you get the picture.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

80. Yeah, it's awful. I'm in a part of the country where things are going VERY bad and this....

is becoming very common. :(

[valerief]

26. Whatever happened to all the school shootings by kids?

Things seem to run in cycles. Black ops, I suspect.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. First you explain that woman who drowned all her

kids in a tub, the one who drowned her kids in her car, and octomom, then I'll explain the insane male-gendered people who do insane things.

Oh never mind, I'll go first: insane people do insane things that are irrational.

[valerief]

30. But the interesting part is that they do with enough consistency to create a pattern.

That's what the OP is asking, I think.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. That's what I'm asking - and it was mentioned by a female news anchor nt

[valerief]

41. I really don't think they're thinking of their families' welfare. I think they don't

want anyone to own "their property" which is the wife and kids. These suiciders are tortured cowards. Cowards aren't noble.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. :( I can say I wish there were no guns in this country, and lots of free psych services nt

[valerief]

52. I agree. That and JOBS!!!!!! nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

70. OH MY GOD YES! WE NEED JOBS! That's why we're seeing all this....

I mean, killing is wrong and these people if surviving would be punished severely, but it's all happening because our shattered economy has triggered all this.

[Warren Stupidity]

57. We frequently see patterns where there is just randomness.

But that wasn't my point - which I now pretty much regret making, which is that just because I share the gender of those involved in an outburst of lunacy does not mean that I have any particular insight into that lunacy, anymore than some random rational woman ought to be considered an authority on octomom or on psychotic women who murder their kids. I find the question mildly irritating, in the category of assuming that random African Americans are experts on basketball.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

86. True. We'd have to go out there and actually run a survey to see if we're correct....

However, where there's a pattern of murder, the cops, hospitals, funeral homes and news anchors are usually the first to notice something wrong. Even before the bespectacled psychologists from the local university get out there to run surveys and statistical analyses so you could be assured.

[seabeyond]

42. i could. i could really explain the woman that drowned her kids in tub

with empathy too, understanding of what she felt, thru my own experience.

doesnt mean i would do it. doesnt mean what she did was ok. but i can understand the pressure and the messed up brain she was experiencing, IF... you are really interested in understanding.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. really?

Andrea Yates killed her kids because apparently they were not living a righteous life and they were going to hell, or something like that. You can empathize with that? I can't even begin.

How about Susan Smith, who allegedly drowned her kids because they were inconvenient and getting in the way of her having a relationship? I can't get started on that explanation. It doesn't begin to make sense to me, let alone be something I can empathize with.

To me it is like trying to understand how David Berkowitz could go out and kill people on the instructions of a dog. You might as well ask me to explain what it is like to be a tree.

[seabeyond]

112. smith adn yates are different. you didnt even begin to touch on issue with yates

and yes... really. but, i still doubt you give a shit and would eb a waste of time.

[Aragorn]

223. ???

Andrea Yates killed her kids because she had a serious, recurring mood disorder, and her HMO shrink, who had seen her one time before then (or maybe it was the first time) stopped a crucial medication ONE WEEK before she became psychotic. You seem to think her delusions were the real reason, which would be....

[Warren Stupidity]

238. I actually have no idea what causes psychotic people to act

I merely recited what Yates herself has said about why she acted. I agree completely that she was psychotic at the time. That is the point. How are normal people supposed to explain the behavior of the psychotic? I can't. Normal people, male or female, don't slaughter their families and have no particular insight, regardless of any shared gender, with those who do.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

77. But my question doesn't have to do with whether or not both men and women murder people

We already know that, right? My question regards the pattern, a pattern that happened to be discussed on a local news channel where I live, by a male and female anchor. Both agreed it was a pattern. Both knew the trigger was the job loss, shattered economy, poverty, foreclosure, etc. Neither knew why it was MEN and now women that are the pattern for this.

And that's what's being discussed, not whether male and females both murder people (which we already knew was the case, right?)

[seabeyond]

116. i understand what you are asking. this poster i responded too acted like cause you asked men

there wasnt soemthing wrong in that and he brought up the women issues.

i could understadn and explain the yates situation, being a woman. just as i feel that you asking men what they thought, with this male issue... was relevent.

the second poster on this tread, i thought, did a good job giving a clarification and perspective i hadnt thought of or was able to see, since i am female.

whereas being a female, there is things i see with yates that warren is obtuse to

[Control-Z]

160. I could too.

And like you, it doesn't mean I would do it, or that it was ok. I just think I understand and have the ability to empathize to a degree.

I guess it's not real popular to admit that around here. But I can put myself into a lot of different people's shoes, and feel their fear and pain, without actually going there myself.

[seabeyond]

171. exactly. i was thinking just that, the ability to be in another's shoes.... doesn't mean i would

do it, or that i am justifying behavior and i certainly would not take on the responsibility for a whole gender....

but i do think insight and discussions into these things are interesting to explore. maybe that is why we are able to be empathetic, the desire to understand, whereas the other poster lacks cause there is no desire or interest, further a resistance to exploring.....

ya think, lol

actually, i did experience the postpartum with first child and was scary and so very real while it was happening. so i have been there, done that.

[Control-Z]

174. The depths of depression

can be black and frightening, and usually with no obvious way out. Fortunately, many people do find a way. But not everyone does. My heart goes out to anyone who is stuck in such a hopeless and destructive state.

[seabeyond]

179. my mom

committed suicide. she did her last christmas at our house, lots of grandkids. we all had little ones. i think back to her that day, and how slowly she ate, and just sat quietly watching, taking it all in. sat for a long while, not going home. then went home and i dont know what, but about 4 that morning killed herself.

i can reflect with so many parts, pieces, tennacles to the whole thing.

more than a decade ago. i never looked at it the same way many do.

[Control-Z]

193. I am so sorry

Really, so very sorry. That is the kind of experience that makes a person feel lost, but yet "knowing" certain things, for ever after, if that make sense.

My mom died when I was 7. It was a horribly tragic death - a self induced abortion - she bled to death. She was a desperate woman who took desperate measures, and yes, I have reflected on it a thousand different ways. It is probably what makes me look at people and situations differently than most. It just IS who I am now.

[seabeyond]

206. yup

i ahve had the honor of talking you before about situations like this. yes. i remember. thanks for the reminder. powerful events that stay with us always. my expereince is my own. yours.... was shared nationwide.

:hug:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

203. I am SO so sorry :( How difficult that must be nt

[omega minimo]

184. yeah cuz we're all macho and this OP question is a direct challenge to male authoritarian power

WHICH IS THE PROBLEM AND CAUSES THE "INSANITY"

[DavidDvorkin]

37. My being a man doesn't give me special insight into their minds

A lot of men do things I don't understand. A lot of men and women do things that I don't understand.

[slackmaster]

43. As a rational person, I can't fathom why anyone would do it

It's certainly not the result of a logical process.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Thank you so much for the responses. It helped to make more sense of this nt

[SidDithers]

45. Women have been known to kill their own children too...nt

Sid

[valerief]

49. But they don't take their husbands with them and then kill themselves. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

68. Of course there's murder in the U.S. But that wasn't the question...

The question is, the same question I saw 2 anchors (1 male, 1 female) discussing on the news, which is: why are so many men kiling their children and wives before they commit suicide? Neither the male nor the female anchors knew why, tho BOTH agreed it was a definite pattern, and particularly much more visible with the exponentially increasing job losses, foreclosures, and poverty.

[SidDithers]

98. It's more common with men...

to also kill their spouse. However, insane is insane, whatever the gender.

Deerfield Beach mother, daughter survive apparent murder-suicide attempt
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/state/content/state/epaper/2009/02/10/0210survive.html

Texas Police Probe Possible Murder-Suicide After Mom, Kids Found Hanged
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276087,00.html

Mother, son found dead in apparent murder-suicide
http://www.nospank.net/n-p30r.htm

Mother left notes before deaths
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_midlands/7535330.stm

Death of Dallas Mother Ruled Suicide
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/New-Details-Cloud-Realtor-Childrens-Deaths.html

And so on...


Sid

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. Very true - thank you much nt

[canetoad]

186. I'd like to see you post some examples

of an equivalent situation in which the genders are reversed ie. a woman kills her partner/husband, her children then herself.

Edited to add: Equivalent, obviously, to the pattern described in the original topic, that is a man killing his wife, children and himself.

[LeftinOH]

53. It may be the sense "ownership" some men have over 'their' women & children..

..as in: "its my stuff/my wife/my kids..and I'll do what I want with them"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

71. Maybe... no doubt the shattered economy, shattered by Republicans, has brought this on nt

[omega minimo]

56. He wants to care for them and can't so he kills them. What's the confusion?

:crazy:

[valerief]

58. So why doesn't he let someone else? nt

[omega minimo]

65. Apparently it's all about him

[jmg257]

132. Ding Ding Ding! Selfishness is the 1st thing that crossed my mind. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

72. The confusion was, I had no idea that was the reason :( nt

[omega minimo]

181. Oh dear, I'm sorry, depending on the craziness of that logic to speak for itself

:blush: "What's the confusion?" about something so :crazy: was -- well, there's no :irony: smilie.........

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. Often a parent will kill their child(ren) as well as themselves to erace any legacy of them.

Quite sad.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

67. I never heard of that. That's so sad :( nt

[TahitiNut]

69. Interesting.

I find it interesting that you pose the question "for men" and we have women jumping forward to 'answer' with greater self-assurance than men. Is that hubris? I dunno. :shrug:

To try and answer "why" is too often attacked as trying to justify a seemingly irrational act, an act that we must regard as outside the bounds of sanity and reason. Indeed, some attempt to answer "why" by peddling their antipathy for the object of some stereotype, never to miss an opportunity to grind an ax.

Some things are clear, at least from a 'normal' cultural context -- even though it's a fallacy to attempt to apply the general to the specific. In each specific instance, only a closer, preferably first-hand knowledge of the people involved can yield anything approaching understanding. (Understanding does NOT mean approval, nor is seeking understanding an attempt to defend.)

Generally speaking, men are more inclined to equate their very identity as a person in their role as Provider, (financial) Supporter, and final arbiter in the family. For many males in this culture, a loss of a job is the equivalent of loss of life ... a loss of one's very reason to exist and failure in their role as Provider. Men are not, generally speaking, as much encouraged to demonstrate the full spectrum of being a human being. Failures are punished. When folks know nothing else other than a marriage ended in divorce, they're far more inclined to attribute the failure to the male than the female. It's a cultural bias. Likewise, the financial 'health' of a household is, without any other information, generally the responsibility of the male -- because, as we all know, he gets paid more than a female of equivalent skill and experience. (Funny how that knife has two edges.)

Without an in-depth knowledge of the specific family dynamics, we can't say for sure whether the male was a "symptom bearer" who cracked up. But we could make that conjecture. Without an in-depth knowledge of the specific family dynamics, we can't say for sure whether the male was an abusive autocrat. But we could make that conjecture. Nor can we know whether he blamed their mere existence as the source of a feeling of failure and pressure to succeed - or whether it was used as an emotional bludgeon as marital stresses arose. But we could make that conjecture.

In the absence of specific knowledge, all manner of supposition and conjecture can form a gindstone upon which we sharpen an ax.

The tragedy is that engaging in blame and grinding an ax does nothing to forestall such events ... and the continued absence of mental health services and cultural supports for males that afford them the same ability to form emotional support groups around them that females seem generally more accustomed to doing will only ensure we see such appalling events again.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

74. Interesting, thanks nt

[Tashca]

75. First off I have no clue

I don't have even the beginnings of an understanding of why a man or woman would do this.

I have thought about this quite abit lately. A few month ago a very good friend of mine walked out of his house in the morning....grabbed his shot gun and stepped out into a corn field and ended his life.....I don't have a clue why....no one does. He was 52.

A few days ago a former classmate of mine strangled his girlfriend and then shot himself dead....I don't have a clue....he was 51.

Alittle over 10 years ago a very close friend of mine decided hanging himself was a solution. I don't have a clue......he was 43.

I do know in society I was raised in it seems like admitting to weakness if you seek mental help. I think men in particular don't want anyone to see themselves as weak in anyway....again a society thing. Mental health is many times seen as a stigma.....this obviously has to change. I have to wonder if these men would have sought help that maybe there would have been a different outcome.

If a man is misguided enough to end his life....then why would he not be irrational enough to take others???.....again I don't have a clue.

edit:spelling

[Sarah Ibarruri]

78. It's a scary thing :( nt

[canadianbeaver]

81. I have wondered if they are religious......

and that it may be a belief that if a person is murdered or killed by another, that they go to heaven immediately or something like that...

I do not practice any religion, so I may be off base with that....but I do recall reading somewhere about murder..and thought that maybe the man feels/thinks he can send them there? because he is so far gone in his thoughts,rational thinking does not enter the mind.
I realize this sounds very strange...but who really knows what goes thru their minds at that point in their lives...they have already made a decision to go forward with those actions...but really I think everyone who posted a reply here has a valid point, but ultimately we will never know...its a guessing game..with or without a suicide note, which may try to explain the reasons.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

90. I don't know. Not in my area of the country anyway....

This is not an excessively religious area.

[Richard D]

83. Conservative family values?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

93. Hmm.... as much as I abhor, detest and puke at the idea of right wing family values

(values which are bs, really), I am going to GUESS and say not? But then, I have no idea as I'm no psychologist.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

87. Some people will go to any lengths to prove they're right.

Unfortunately, the last gasp of an egomaniac often requires that he/she include others.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

97. Thank you. I had to look at your profile, and your quote is GREAT! nt

[zalinda]

89. Men are normally associated with their jobs

One of the first questions when meeting a man, is "What do you do?" The answer, "I'm a banker", or whatever it is that they do for a living. When taking away their jobs, for some men, it is like taking away their identity. Taking away their identity is the first step in the downward spiral. If the wife would be capable with supporting the family, I think it would be less likely that it would be a murder-suicide. If he sees them as going homeless or suffering because he can no longer hold up "his end of the bargain", I think that's when it happens.

As for women killing their children, I think it is the same thing. It is a twisted form of love. You hear horror stories of kids ending up in foster homes and being abused. In this person's logic, it would be kinder to take their families with them, than letting them suffer.

While there may be some sort of "ownership" involved in some of these situations, most simply do not want to have their families suffer. And, as we all know, heaven is not a place where you suffer.

zalinda

[Sarah Ibarruri]

94. That is so true. Men do associate themselves with their jobs. I hope things

improve eventually. :(

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

105. More than a few women, too.

In fact, I just got off the phone with a former co-worker (I'm retired) who was despairing about the people she has to supervise. As I've often done, (I was an Employee Assistance Counselor), I had to remind her that "it's just a friggin' job".

Although, I will say that the threatened suicides that I had to deal with that involved their job were all men. Suicidal women were usually upset about personal relationships.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

106. More so now that more women are working nt

[H2O Man]

96. Good question.

I think that you've asked an important question. It may be an uncomfortable one, but it is nevertheless important.

I think there are a number of factors. First, I think that any individual can reach a "breaking point." But those who have less developed coping skills are going to be more likely to reach their breaking point, than are others with solid coping skills.

The amount of "support" an individual gets from family and friends makes a significant difference, too. For a variety of reasons, there are general differences in the manner in which men and women seek support in our society, as well as the manner in which family and friends offer support. One difference is that women tend to seek other people's opinions before they make a decision, while men are more likely to internalize the decision-making process. Second, men are far too often uncomfortable in certain tense situations, and are more likely to bring a case of beer, etc. Further, I can think of one example, at a friend's funeral: her husband (a good friend) broke down at the end. Other men said, "It's okay. Don't cry." This is wrong -- it wasn't okay, and crying was a healthy response.

Now, if a person is facing a terrible situation, feels an almost total loss of control, is isolated, and perhaps has been getting intoxicated, they reach that breaking point where rational thought is not a possibility. Thus, they see a narrow amount of options -- none being rational, all being irrational -- and feeling both hopeless and helpless, seek some degree of control. They want the crisis/crises to end. They believe that death is their best option. And they do not want to leave survivors to deal with the crises that they view as impossible to resolve.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

100. Thank you for your powerful answer! I do agree that this is a question that needs to be discussed

It brings up all kind of other issues which should be discussed for the benefit of men, women, and children. After all, we're all going to live together until the end of the world, so better if we all understand one another better and what we need with and without stress.

[Bluerthanblue]

102. the answer

is as complicated as the individual situation that drove each man to kill. (i'm not a man)

I know more about suicide than i'd like- It's normal or 'comforting' to look for a common reason, - because if we understand what motivates it,- maybe we could stop others from happening- But I believe the real reasons are much more complicated than we know.

My opinion is that some men feel a sense of responsibility,- and can't imagine leaving their loved ones to carry on without them-
Others might see their families as more of an extension of themselves. Not necessarily as 'possessions' but as being so interconnected with them that to leave them behind would not be a complete death.
Anger might be involved in more cases than we'd like to think.-

When life becomes unbearable, rational thinking can become twisted to a point where the old saying, 'there is a fate worse than death'- motivates someone to do what would normally be unimaginable.

I'm glad you asked the question though- and interested in the responses you've gotten.


peace~

[Sarah Ibarruri]

120. Thank you so much. I didn't imagine anyone would be able to explain this to me....

but it turns out that there's so much I have learned in only a few minutes!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. They Do It Because Of Post Partum Depression.

I mean, that's the reason why women always kill their kids right?

(ps: Your OP is sorely misguided. Those who do what you say must make up a COMPLETELY non-statistical minority of overall male suicides. Nice try though.)

[bahrbearian]

175. Is your Reply suppose to make sense.. Sick

next you'll rationalize Murder -Suicide.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

180. LMAO!

:rofl:

[TheWraith]

107. It's culturally taught to men in America that a man provides for his family.

The idea of finance as a measurement of self-worth is very strongly taught to many men, as is the idea that it's their responsibility and only their responsibility to insure the finanical well-being of their family, which is equated to their current and future happiness, social standing, safety, etcetera. When someone does snap like that, usually they see poverty as being the ruin of their family, that there's no way out of it, and they decide to "save" them from that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

121. I wonder why these things are not discussed openly? Maybe if they were....

maybe these men that have suffered through such a thing would not go to that deep place that caused them to do this. Maybe they would understand themselves better, realize they're not alone, see things more rationally...

Do you know what I mean?

[TheWraith]

170. I know exactly what you mean, but it's more cultural conditioning.

Males are tought from a very young age not to show anything interpreted as signs of weakness. Whether it's being attacked by a school bully, the expectations of parents, the treatment of educators, or the thousand and one cliches: "boys don't cry," "stiff upper lip," "be a man," etcetera. Men are expected to take anything they feel, bottle it up inside, and "be strong" even when strength isn't what's needed. For some it doesn't cause a problem, others don't follow the script, but now and then someone has the pressure build up inside to the point where they do something horrible.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

194. :( Like a pressure cooker. Society still needs to make a lot of changes nt

[jpgray]

108. Question for women please - explain these whacko behaviors, based solely on your shared chromosomes

(I don't have any, just thought it was a weird question)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

117. Behave yourself lol

:dilemma:

[TahitiNut]

130. Ladies first.

:hide:

[omega minimo]

185. oh god sandwiched b/w the two biggest

[Evoman]

119. Ego. Some men can't bear the thought of others living when they die.

Same reason men will shoot up the their workplace, then kill themselves. Want to take others with them. Can't bear the world going on as normal without them.

If they have to leave the world, by gods, there are going to be consequences to the living. If they just killed themselves, there is a chance that no one will notice or care...and you certainly can't have that.

[seabeyond]

122. that is a thought too. i can see that coming into play. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

124. I didn't realize this was such a complex topic when I asked the question - but it is complex! nt

[jmg257]

133. Yep. Selfish ego for the most part. Pure crazy for the rest.

[Warren Stupidity]

123. Question for women - or anyone else - why are women killing

their kids, on their own, at more than twice the rate of men?




http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm06/figure4_2.htm

It must be something about the way we raise women, or at least that is what I should conclude from the consensus of posts in this thread.

[seabeyond]

134. yes... a lot of it has to do with the way these women are raised. are you seriously asking

and wanting an explanation or again.....

is it just cause you are taking this personally and you dont recognize a gender difference in these behaviors. it does NOT hurt to discuss subject.....

[Warren Stupidity]

141. yes it is mldly offensive

and indeed why are women twice as likely to take it upon themselves to kill their kids, and 10x more likely to set out with others to slaughter their kids? Doesn't this also demand an explanation?

I've seen all sorts of explanations here for why men are so obviously messed up, and yet the data indicates quite clearly that women are even more messed up. Maybe its something in the water?

Well no the data actually doesn't indicate anything of the sort of course, which is the actual point here. These incidents are massively rare. It is a microscopic portion of the population of either sex that takes part in parental slaughter. Taking flying leaps of unsubstantiated conclusion drawing based on media hyped 'crime waves' is downright silly. There is no epidemic of parental slaughtering by either sex going on, regardless of the hyperventilation over the mentally challenged media-drone.

Wait - my wife just came home with octuplets. I'll be right back. Gotta go slaughter 'em all.

[seabeyond]

157. ah... the silliness, but you do have something to be outraged about, ... again

dontcha.

again, i can explore the to do's about women that you go on about, without feeling afronted myself, but again, you really arent interested in the ins and outs of the specifics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

200. I see - so nothing may be discussed then, right? nt

[Warren Stupidity]

215. Yes that is it exactly.

Precisely my point.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

227. LOL! You must be a loner nt

[Luna_C_06]

191. Maybe because women spend much more time with

their children. Still doesn't make it right though...

[Warren Stupidity]

192. It really wasn't a serious question.

99.999% of parents never murder their children. It was an attempt to point out what is wrong with the OP.

[leftofthedial]

129. when you get twisted enough to kill yourself,

you think of killing them as the only way you can "take care of them"


that, plus suicide is the most selfish act there is, and if you can't have them, no one else can either.



Any way you sliced it, it is horrific and an apparently growing trend these days.

[Radical Activist]

135. Is it really happening that often?

Or is this another case of the media making a few isolated incidents seem bigger than they are? The press does a great job of using crime stories to create a distorted reality.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

201. Apparently it is happening - during the 2nd Great Depression....

A lot of people killed themselves...

The reason of why so many of these men that are killing themselves recently are also killing the kids and wife might have been accurately explained by what another guy on here who responded posted:

http://www.socialworkblog.org/helpstartshere/index.php/2008/10/23/about-domestic-homicide-and-murder-suicide/

[Radical Activist]

225. Those numbers are from 2005

and most of the causes it points to aren't economic. The numbers at that page are sad, but they don't show some kind of new widespread epidemic.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

226. Defensiveness shows - although why you would choose to feel defensive is beyond me nt

[Radical Activist]

229. Your innability to defend your argument shows.

I think the media's over-coverage of violent crime presents a distorted view of the world so it's perfectly reasonable to ask you to defend your implication that this is a widespread problem.

Writing that I'm being defensive is a very ugly insinuation and you should edit it.

[dustbunnie]

136. They're called "Family Annihilators."

It's not something new, and apparently according to the experts, the impetus is rage, jealousy and loss of control.

In this economy, probably the loss of control factor is heightened, as well as general rage.

[redqueen]

138. When I read about it they were called "family eliminators".

Sad, scary stuff.

[dustbunnie]

150. Both terms pretty much sum it up!

It is sad and scary. I can only imagine what it must be like to be a child in those last moments... the utter fear and confusion.

[redqueen]

152. Sadly I don't have to imagine...

I am very thankful it never went that far... but the threats were enough.

[dustbunnie]

165. That's terrible, and guess you can never completely wipe away the past.

But I'm happy you survived, and you're here! :)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

202. Family eliminators? Do they use that term in the media? nt

[KonaKane]

140. Difficult to answer for all men

I'm sure that male murder/suiciders have a jungle of problems swirling in their heads before committing an act like this, all dreadfully compelling to them and all very different. But I'll venture to say that a lot of men have their esteem and future tied up in their families, and if they see no future for themselves, they by direct connection see no future for their families either. They may think they are doing them a favor by taking them out too.

My wife is a clinical therapist, and tells me that the breadwinner/responsible party thing is still uppermost in the male psyche - however overblown or even imagined it is.

[Catherine Vincent]

142. My guess is sickness and selfishness. nt

[burythehatchet]

143. I don't know. Why do women kill their kids? Bizarre.

[dustbunnie]

148. I think mostly due to post-partum depression that has morphed into psychosis -

as well as fear of losing a relationship. Those seem to be the classic reasons for women. For men it's the loss of control and rage.

[TwilightGardener]

144. Has nothing to do with a twisted sense of love and duty to your family...

and everything to do with mental illness and misdirected rage.

[burythehatchet]

145. Funny how so few call out sexism when it is directed towards men.

[redqueen]

151. How is this sexist?

http://www.vpc.org/studies/amroul2008.pdf

[FLAprogressive]

213. if this thread were "Question for women please -- why do you _____" it would be called sexist

in a New York minute.

Insanity knows no gender.

[ecstatic]

147. A man on Oprah the other day pleaded with people not to do that

He and his wife were reduced to living in their office and taking showers at the local gym. He pleaded with people going through tough times not to hurt themselves or their families---he reminded the viewers that homes, etc. are just material objects that can be replaced. It was very touching and I'm glad he made that point.

The episode was "A Special Report with Lisa Ling - Tent Cities and the Recession" and it aired 2/25/09.
http://www.oprah.com/article/oprahshow/20090218_tows_lisa-ling-recession/4

[Sarah Ibarruri]

204. I'm going to look at the website now - thank you nt

[acmavm]

149. The dispicable bastards who do this shit see themselves as failures

and they can't take the blow to their egos. And they are such worthless selfish fucks they're gonna take their families with them so that they don't have a chance at a better life without them. If their life is over, so is everyone in the family's because as head of the family they figure they have a 'right' to kill the wife, kiddies, and anyone else who might be a witness to their failures.

Worthless, dispicable, heartless, rotten bastards.

[ProgrezivIndie]

153. stoopid stuff, really no way to explain it IMO... n/t k&r

[MedleyMisty]

154. The most important thing I take from the replies

is that I should get down on my knees and thank my mother for never indoctrinating me with anything. Also, that I should continue her tradition and not give a fucking damn about what "society" thinks no matter how much that annoys other people on the intarwebs. It doesn't tend to annoy people IRL, but that may be because I don't associate with people who can't think for themselves.

How do you get a society without roles and stereotypes and "expectations" and all that shit? I was about to say that it seems to cause as much misery as religion, but then I realized that religion itself is a product of that.

[slay]

163. Seems about right to me

Wouldn't it be great if people really did think for themselves? Guess many are too busy watching American Idol to be bothered with such a concept. hehehe. doh.

Oh and hi from Raleigh fellow NC'er! :hi:

[whathehell]

156. Yes, my SO often remarks drolly as to their need to "kill themselves first"

[SalmonChantedEvening]

159. An assessment from a distance.

It would seem to me that these are men who believe they are taking what is theirs with them.

Their possessions, or their charges. The former for the extreme who feel people are belongings, the latter for those they vowed to support, that they would either feel they have failed, or do not wish to cause any more suffering to.

Other variables exist of course, but my typing only permits me expression of a pair of them.

Some of it may be out of real love. In despair, there are many ways we try to love finally.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

205. Thank you - yes - I don't necessarily think it's a lack of love per se

And you type very well

[wroberts189]

161. In this society ....

Manhood is still defined by how wealthy you are by some.

If you believe this and then lose it all....



well that is one theory.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. If you know it's not something most men would do then why the hell are you asking me?

How the fuck should I know?

"Question for the women please, why did Susan Smith kill her kids? It seems like it's almost a forbidden question. What is happening that women don't just take their own lives and leave the kids alone?" :mad:

[dustbunnie]

164. It's not forbidden, and is a valid question.

When women murder their kids it's in the news 24/7 until it's been totally played out and off we go onto the next grisly news item. People seem to be even more repulsed when women do it, for obvious reasons.

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. That "obvious reason" is that "dog bites man" is not news, while "man bites dog" is.

As the OP inadvertently points out, the family-killing guy is a broadly accepted stereotype. So much so, that some people feel justified asking the guys who haven't yet killed our families what we're thinking.

But I gave Susan Smith more credit than she deserved. She's still alive.

Only an idiot would not know how insulting, stereotypical and sexist the question is, and I have no reason to believe that the OP is an idiot.

[smoogatz]

166. They're psychotic.

Obviously. They do it because their brain chemistries are horrendously out of whack.

[lib2DaBone]

167. for the last 30 years..Republicans have had everything handed to them....

..the upper 2 % have had a free ride at the expense of working people.

The upped 2% never had to work, get their hands dirty or worry.. it was all pre-ordained in the legislature.

Now.. even "wealthy" are going to have to go to work.. no more free lunch because their greed has broken the system.

Just the thought of putting in an honest 8-hour-day, to a Republican, is enough to commit suicide.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

207. I'm 100% with you there! nt

[fascisthunter]

169. I'm a Man, and I Say it's Ego

these men are sick... plain and simple. There is no justification for this.... none.

[benEzra]

173. Agreed. (n/t)

[rucky]

177. I'm sure there's a perfectly logical explanation.

:crazy:

[U4ikLefty]

187. Because the kids were forced to eat humiliating cheese sandiwches

while his wife was too busy mocking Bobby Jindal's name on a messageboard to fill out the damn paperwork.

This caused him to go into a deep depression & lose his job at the "clean coal" powerplant.

The solution was clear.

[FLAprogressive]

214. I'd give you a DUzy for that one!

If I gave out DUzys!

:rofl:

[dysfunctional press]

188. they're trying to spare them the pain of finding their husband/father dead from suicide.

-or-

they're at the end of their emotional rope, and they just want to find out if maybe it isn't all the wife and kid's fault, and perhaps things would be better without them around...but then decide that isn't the case.

-or-

men are just fickle that way.

[salguine]

189. Do you know how many men commit suicide WITHOUT killing their wives and kids? Unless

you know that, you don't even know whether there's a "phenomenon" at work here. It may well be that killing the wife and kids is the exception; it's just that those are the only ones that get reported in the media.

[BlueIris]

190. 'Family annihilators' are typically hard-core, dyed-in-the-wool narcissists.

Sick bastards.

[Hello_Kitty]

199. Some men have such a sense of themselves as patriarchs

That they literally cannot conceive of their families being able to go on without them.

[Marr]

209. Women kill a lot more children than men do.

According to government agency reports, here's how the numbers break down. These numbers are on children murdered in the home by family/guardians.

PERPETRATOR RELATIONSHIP <3>

31.5% Female Parent Only
10.7% Male Parent Only *
21.3% Both Parents *
16.3% Female Parent and Other
1.1% Male Parent and Other *
4.5% Family Relative
6.1% Substitute Care Provider(s)
5.7% Other
2.7% Unknown

I *don't* mean to turn this into some sort of gender war, but I think there's an inherent message in your question, and I think that message is incorrect. You seem to be assuming this violence is a mostly male phenomenon and that males in general should be more familiar with it. That isn't the case.

[Karenina]

210. Women who identify with the patriarchal SYSTEM...

:shrug:

[Marr]

212. I don't understand.

You're saying that when a woman kills a child, it's a condemnation of... men?

[Lyric]

218. Apparently you've never read about Medea

:shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

228. Greek mythology?

[Lyric]

249. Yeah. The poster I was replying to seemed to have the impression

that the story of a woman killing her children as a condemnation of patriarchal male oppression is something new under the sun. It isn't. There are ancient roots to that sort of thing, as is evidenced by the story of Medea, who was manipulated by the gods for the sake of Jason's best interests rather than her own, and who killed her children out of grief and rage at the treatment and later-abandonment that she endured.

It's not right, of course--people who kill their children, regardless of their reasons, are sick, sick people that deserve either prison or a mental hospital for life, depending on the circumstances. But the archetypal model of a woman killing her children as a condemnation of men/patriarchy certainly *does* exist, and has for a very long time.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

252. Thanks, great explanation.

[Karenina]

236. Not a condemnation, an identification with the structure

that proclaims her worthless without a man. The manifestations I was thinking of when making that comment were mothers who allow boyfriends to abuse their children or will themselves kill the child to somehow reclaim their worth as an unencumbered female.

[janx]

219. Nah. It's still an individual choice. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

240. I think most actions are individual decisions....

... some acts are not individual decisions (for example, autistic children don't have as much choice as others). However, I think what we learn from our society plays a gigantic part in our actions.

[omega minimo]

230. That's not the type of crime the OP is talking about

[Warren Stupidity]

237. More to the point: all of this is vanishingly rare.

Hardly anyone, man or woman, kill their children or their spouse. There is no epidemic of family slaughter. None of us normal people have any particular insight, regardless of our gender, into the actions of these people. There is indeed an inherent message in the question, and the series of responses that, for example, blame 'male upbringing' without considering that 99.999% of upbrought males don't slaughter anyone, fall right into the framing. Your cited statistics, which I cited earlier, don't even cause a stutter in the narrative.

[GinaMaria]

211. follow up question...

...and what do we do about it? What do we do about despair in general? We're going to see a lot more rage, helplessness, hopelessness etc. What can we do to get people through the darkness and to the other side?

[omega minimo]

231. take responsibility for one's own emotions and not project them on others or commit multi homocide

[Sarah Ibarruri]

241. I personally think we need to change our country in many ways...

First, I think we need to remove the violence. The influence of the autocratic, oligarchist, patriarchal, savage Republicans has damaged not only our economic system, but has created an environment of violence, because Republicans *are* by nature people who believe in violence. We have to make sure these people do not get voted back in for a long time.

Second, I think we need to reverse almost all that was done by the GOP, because almost all of it was meant to redistribute our country's wealth to the mega-rich, and to hurt the weakest, most helpless, and poorest.

In other words, keep right wingers, conservatives, neo-cons, nazis, KKKers, and all that trash out of any positions of power, from the lowest (say, School boards), to the highest. Keep right wingers out of power and we'll all be safer, and our economy will heal.

[leeroysphitz]

217. Why are men killing their families?

The same reason women are cutting off their babies arms, putting them in ovens, drowning them in bathtubs and lakes. Because they are CRAZY.

Period.

[sendero]

220. While all kinds of motivations..

.... can be ascribed to such an act, I think selfishness would have to be a top consideration.

I buy the idea that men feel like they are the material providers, as I am a man and I would feel like a failure if I could not provide for my family.

But while I do understand the pain and despair that would result from not being able to provide any longer, I could never take someone else's life because I could not go on with my own.

I'm afraid there might be some "if I can't live, neither can you" at work here, and it's wrong.

[omega minimo]

232. thank you for that thoughtful honest post. Says it all.

:hi:

[Karenina]

234. Do you think that mindset parallels

the "If I can't have you, no one will" mindset? :shrug:

[sendero]

235. Yes...

.. it probably does.

[Karenina]

239. Have you any thoughts on what fuels this mindset?

Is it biology? Societal devaluation of women? Poor coping skills? All of the above? It's a worldwide phenomenon and one that seems to get short shrift in terms of in-depth study.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

243. Could be?

Call me crazy, but I think the right wing influence has a lot to do with all that.

[Karenina]

246. If what you mean by RW is authoritarian or reactionary

I agree. But let's not forget this is a global problem.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

247. Food for thought. I always figured, since right wingers hate women, that their influence....

could not, cannot, be good.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

242. Scary. Don't you believe that the right wing influence of the past 30 years has had a lot to

do with that?

[Juche]

224. Who says they are

There are about 26000 male suicides a year. A few might involve taking the family with him, but I am sure they are rare.

If they are step children and not the parent's genetic children, then that opens another can of worms involving evolutionary psychology. FTR, it is both genders that kill children, the gender of sugar and spice and everything nice is just as guilty of this behavior.

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/02/dads-likely-kill-own-kids-though-moms-get-more-press

But the Bureau of Justice Statistics, in a report covering 1976 through 2005, said that of homicides involving children 5 and younger, 31 percent were killed by their father and 29 percent by their mother.


http://www.newsweek.com/id/91534/page/2


NEWSWEEK: What would lead a father to kill to his kids?

Paul Appelbaum: There's relatively limited research on men who kill their children. What we do know about the behavior is that broadly, these men tend to fall into one of two categories: One, fathers with a serious mental illness such as depression or psychosis who are led by their illnesses. A severely depressed father may believe that he's a poor provider, condemning his children to a life of poverty and unhappiness, so he feels like the killing is an altruistic act to save them from a miserable life. And it is very likely that the father will commit suicide after he kills his kids. One thing you can say about the Luong case is that he should be watched very carefully for suicidal impulses. Psychosis, such as schizophrenia, psychotic depression or a bipolar psychotic disorder, can lead to the delusion that he has been ordered by God to kill his children. So in a psychotic way, the father is still doing this for the sake of their children.




Is there a difference in the psychology of mothers and fathers when they kill their kids?



If you compare mothers who kill to fathers who kill, mothers tend to kill young children, newborns, and it's often a result of either postpartum depression or to hide the evidence of a birth such as if a very young mother panics. The children tend to be older when fathers do it, and that may dovetail with physical abuse. Also, when mothers kill their children, the ratio of boys to girls tends to be even. When fathers do it, they're more likely to kill their male offspring.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

245. Would you happen to have found recent stats? nt

[TWiley]

244. It is mental illness Sarah ....

It is pretty difficult to rationally explain the behavior of someone who is mentally ill. There are socio-economic triggers that may be important though.

Men have been loosing their jobs faster than women, and many men earn less than their wives. Combine this with old-school beliefs, the thought of someone else sexing up their wives, a gun, mental illness, and voiloa' a news story is born.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

248. Yes - I do have a question tho (crazy question maybe)....

Do you think any of this has to do with the violent influence of having Republicans in power at all levels of governing in our country for so many years? Republicans, right wingers, etc. hold very violent ideologies and you know the way they view women.

Just an idea I had...

[TWiley]

250. Well, the republikkklan ideals are not helpful.

You are a looser if you accept welfare
Pull youself up by the bootstraps (how is this done?)
Take no help from anyone
Husbands work, women stay home and brood children
Santa Clause
SUV's
Dr Phil
Rush Limbaugh
Anne Coulter
Sean Hannity

just to name a few ...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

251. Exactly my point. Put that together with a population that isn't too

intellectual, and what do you get? :(

[mdmc]

260. the death penalty

[mdmc]

261. I agree

below I post that behavior is designed to meet needs... no telling what those "needs" are when mental illness is involved. Not that all this behavior is chemical mental illness (as opposed to situational/environmental mental illness like PTSD or multiple personality disorder) - some of these tragedies seem to be triggered by situations...

[mdmc]

259. I think that I can answer this for you

(as a practice in empathy)
...
Suicide is an action meant to achieve a result. Behavior is an attempt to satisfy a need.
If the result/need is to get rid of failure (the suicider), then he can kill himself.
But if it is to spare his family the humiliation of (his) failure, then they all gotta go.

There are many other results/needs that are met by murder/suicide.

ex- family is having financial problems. In laws say we will take care of kids, but wife must divorce dad. Dad kills self and family to hurt in laws.
all sorts of reasons why it happens.

Now my question-
how is it stopped?

k/r for the OP

[deaniac21]

262. I suspect that the only men that could answer you are dead.