One More Post About The Cheese Sandwich.....

[unapatriciated]

For those of you who think it's about the cheese and less about humiliation, control and privatization.
Here's some food for thought.

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=6422

Food for thought: Privatizing school lunches may impair learning

ANN ARBOR, Mich.—Public schools that use private food services may not save much money. Worse yet, they may be hurting student performance, says a University of Michigan researcher.

A new study by Roland Zullo, assistant research scientist at the U-M Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations, suggests that schools in Michigan that use private companies to prepare and serve lunch and often breakfast to their students realize no significant cost savings.

While public schools that privatize their food operations save about 15 percent on labor and 4 percent on food, they end up spending 11 percent more on contractor fees and 4 percent more for supplies, Zullo says.

"If economic savings fail to materialize, then we would expect that districts with private food services would not gain additional classroom resources," said Zullo, who notes that districts with private food-service management have an average of 1.1 more children per teacher. "While I hesitate to conclude that privatization increases class sizes, the results do not indicate that privatizing food services liberates resources for the classroom."

More importantly, the study shows that private food service is associated with a reduction of 1 percent to 3 percent in scores on the Michigan Educational Assessment Program (MEAP tests for grades 3-9), after controlling for affluence, school resources and student traits. This is especially true for students in grades 3-5 and with the English, reading and writing tests.

The culprit? Private food services tend to serve more high-fat and high-sugar foods on their a la carte menu.



It's time to revisit privatization of our public schools. The only ones benefiting are the contractors, it sure as hell is not our children.
But those "family values" that the wingers keep talking about vanish right down the rabbit hole at the mere mention of Socialized Programs of any type.
It's very sad to see some Duers jumping down that same hole.

We have tried it their way, now it is time to go back to what works and grow a healthy educated society.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Only in these great Younighted Steaks

would a supposedly progressive message board have a major meltdown over feeding children a decent lunch at school.

[Two Americas]

24. yes

And people on the other "side" in the debate have been spouting every right wing and libertarian talking point.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Maybe schools privatize food service because they want

to get out of the catering business. I can understand that.

[unapatriciated]

4. but it should be about what's best for the children not...

what's convenient for the schools.
You hire a caterer for a party not to educate our children. Proper nutrition is part of a good education.
Did you read the article?

[TwilightGardener]

5. Yes, I thought the study proved nothing.

And again, maybe the schools want to get away from having to hire/fire lunch staff, get away from ordering/menu planning, etc. I don't blame them, if they choose GOOD contractors. It's a local issue, one to be decided on by communities and the results JUDGED by communities.

[unapatriciated]

7. so when some "communities" judge....

some children not worthy of the same education as others (minorities or the poor), it's just fine with you.
That's the reason the public school system came into play, we didn't see the decline until the Reagan years and the push for privatization and corruption.

[lonestarnot]

9. Oh so maybe they should stop bussing kids to school too.

:eyes: They aren't in the transportation business either.

[surrealAmerican]

12. I'm sorry to break this to you, but ...

... many school districts do just that. It is the norm around here for the school districts to contract with private bus companies.

[Two Americas]

23. "they"

Who is this "they" that you imagine to be running a business here? What are we doing having our public schools run by people who are opposed to the very concept of public services? Why do you defend that?

[Usrename]

43. You should watch the documentary 'Super Size Me'

It illustrates the problem in graphic detail. You might change your outlook on this issue once you see what it's all about.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Has it occurred to you yet that privatization is a corrupt scam?

'cause I figured that out within the first year or so of the privatization epidemic.

[TahitiNut]

14. Privatization shifts taxpayer dollars away from the folks performing the LABOR and towards ...

... the "ownership class" who collect those dollars in PROFITS. "Scam" is too nice a word for such a rape of the public services.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. no shit

the Cheese Sandwich Incident is quite revealing. So many people have bought the bullshit of the last 30 years. I suppose a lot of them have grown up with it so they don't know anything else.

[Donnachaidh]

8. and maybe they privatize because they have buddies in the catering service

Chik Fil A is a big repuke contributor. And surprise, surprise -- guess what they feed kids in schools in my area?

The *catering business* argument is a RW frame, too.

[Two Americas]

22. that is a Reaganomics argument

Schools are not in any sort of business at all.

Why would you promote privatization?

[Greyhound]

26. Yes, but like Raygun himself, there is a segment of society

that has devoted itself to raising his corpse at any cost, damn the consequences.

[Two Americas]

28. that is fine

There will always be some who advocate conservative politics. But what cannot be ignored or tolerated is people sabotaging us from the inside, claiming to be Democrats, progressive or liberals, and using that as cover for promoting right wing ideas.

[Greyhound]

31. I know that you know this, but I'm posting it anyway.

The Democratic party has, for most of it's history, been the conservative party. FDR and, to a lesser extent, LBJ were exceptions to the rule. OTOH, so has the Republic party with a couple of it's exceptions Lincoln and, to a lesser extent, Teddy Roosevelt.

What we have in America is a nation that was very early on taken over, politically, by the parasite class and this is/has been facilitated by our binary system of governance. It is quite easy buy both teams when there are only two allowed, and this forces the unrepresented to either accept their rule or to resort to extra-governmental actions, thus opening the door to escalation resulting in violence, which serves, guess who, the parasites.

In a Parliamentary form of government there is always a road to power through expandable party formation and the requirement to create coalitions to hold power.
:kick:

[Two Americas]

33. yes, of course

The careers of politicians require them to hob nob with and cater to and curry favor with the wealthy and powerful, so the default position for them is to defend the interests of the wealthy and powerful few.

That is the politicians. They are what they are. But that has nothing to do with us, and what we think and say and do.

Any success, any gains for the people, from the New Deal did not come from politicians, it came from politicians being forced to respond to outside pressure from powerful forces - progressive organizations, socialist organizations, organized Labor.

The binary system, the two party system, is no excuse for us. No matter how many parties there were, no matter how many options, our job, our duty is the same.

What I see here is people coming up with a million excises and rationalizations for not fighting. The two party system, the government has the guns, the people are stupid, the elite will always rule, that would mean violence, etc., etc., etc. But we haven't even started fighting. How can we know it is hopeless?

The same struggle is going in in countries with Parliamentary systems. I think we are coming up with excuses to remain passive and complacent.

[Greyhound]

36. I don't think it is hopeless, but I do think our options for change are severely limited.

The crisis is world wide, but it is being dealt with more effectively in the Social Democracies. The nations that are Social Democracies are such because their systems do give an avenue for more voices to be heard. I don't see how that can be denied.

I would like to know what you think can be done to fight for justice here? I've been working for years and years to address the obscenity that America has become, but the wall is still there and my head is sore.

[Two Americas]

39. understood

The problem here is that you can have the answer, the solution, but no one wants to hear it. They already know the solution, but are afraid to think or say it.

There is hardly a working person you ever encounter - the invisible people we see every day and look right through - who does not understand that they are getting screwed. I have these conversations with people every day. They know that the game is rigged, that they have no chance, and that the rich are getting richer while all of us are getting poorer. All of those people would organize, would fight back. The problem is that the people with the verbal skills and the time and vision to organize, us, are co-opted and bought off in the service of the upper class. It is what we call "success" - emulating and compromising with and promoting the upper class. We see the poor people, the working poor, as not our kind and not "like-minded" so we keep trying to do the impossible - dedicate most of our life to the upper class ethic, base all of our thinking and actions on the premises and assumptions that keep the upper class in power, and then wonder why within that context we cannot accomplish anything with our political activities - which are more like hobby activities then anything else.

Courage and clarity. That is all we lack. Nothing worthwhile can ever be done without a full commitment. Trying to accomplish anything with a wishy washy commitment, in our spare time, and by remote control - voting and sending checks and emails - will never get it.

I am not so much advocating this, since it will eventually happen with or without us regardless of what I say. It is more of a prediction than anything else. Many here, when social unrest starts, will be on the side of the authorities, the upper class. Right now, there is so much confusion that we can't tell who is on which side.

People are denying and avoiding the obvious solution, as they desperately look for any way out of taking a stand and telling the truth. We must organize and fight back. There are no magic tricks to this, no shortcuts possible, no ideologies needed. It does take some clarity as to what the battle is about and where the battle lines are drawn, and the courage to move forward. We lack courage and clarity, and the conservatives here prevent that by continually confusing and scaring people.


...

[Two Americas]

27. you know...

I am working in a conservative district, and what you are saying here is what I hear from every Limbaugh-listening right winger - the exact same line of reasoning. At least with them, they don't pretend to be anything else, and there is some sane basis for discussion, because it is known what each person's position is, and there is some hope of converting and persuading them to a broader, more intelligent and more left wing view.

But when people who call themselves Democrats or liberals or progressives argue the right wing point of view, that gives legitimacy to the right wing arguments and makes it very difficult to have a discussion. Nothing is more powerful for advancing right wing view than when Democrats promote them from inside the Democratic community, and nothing weakens us more in the face of the right wing.

Defending privatization in public education is not merely an "opinion," it is the foundation, the core and essence of the right wing political philosophy.

Unlike many here, I do not see conservatives as evil or as the enemy, I see them as a challenge, as people who can be salvaged and converted. So if you want to be a conservative, that is fine and I won't attack you. I will debate you on your ideas, knowing that we are on opposite sides politically. But to claim to be a Democrat, and then promote the ideas of the right wing - that cannot stand and must be challenged aggressively and relentlessly.

There is no way that you can claim that the opinion you are expressing here is in any way compatible with anything that the Democratic party stands for. It is not an isolated or peripheral issue - privatization is the core of the right wing doctrine, and public education is a critical battle ground between the defenders of public services and the right wingers who are attacking them by using the privatization arguments.

40 years ago it was rare to find Republicans who attacked public education the way that you are here. Only the extreme right wing would make that argument - that schools should be seen as though they were businesses, and that public services could or should under any circumstances be contracted out to private interests.

There is no possible way that many of us here could ever accept a "big tent" that includes people who advocate the privatization of public services, or even the consideration of that as a legitimate approach. Beyond that, there is no point in even having a Democratic party that includes that idea. That means that the battle for control of the party will continue. It also is not sustainable. A Democratic party that supports privatization is no alternative to the Republican party, and will leave no voice and no power for the majority of people in the country. That will lead to massive social unrest, sooner or later, and the party will have to move back to the Left or it will be under vigorous assault - and should be under assault.

You will not succeed in making the Democratic party into Republican lite without a fierce battle. Since that battle is inevitable, and becomes more inevitable every day, there is no sense in postponing it.

What you are doing is the equivalent of calling yourself a Republican yet advocating the nationalization of industry. You would be an ally if you were to do that. You are not an ally now. We cannot and should not be asked - let alone required - to think that you are.


...

[zalinda]

34. One of the benefits of public school lunches

were not only nutrition, but women could hold the "lunch lady" jobs. These jobs weren't glamorous, but it allowed women to work only while their children were in school. It saved a lot of women from going on welfare.

zalinda

[Two Americas]

35. all sorts of benefits

There are all sorts of benefits from public infrastructure and public services. I can't believe that we have Democrats arguing the right wing side of this argument. Mind boggling. At least with Republicans we can see them coming, we know what they are up to, and can defend ourselves and there is no confusion. But this business of being wounded in the house of our friends, sabotaged and undermined from within, must stop. There is no more important fight.

If we cannot stand against privatization creeping into public education - uncompromisingly, steadfastly - then we stand for nothing and may as well pack it all up and go home and stop fooling ourselves and others.

[elizfeelinggreat]

38. I agree

The fact that we've been told we have to choose which part of our public institutions now deserve financing (as if they all do not) contributes to the ease with which infighting is started. We're being asked to decide what's more important: teachers, buildings, lunches, etc., and not considering that we should be working to improve all of them.

Thank you for this reminder:

Any success, any gains for the people, from the New Deal did not come from politicians, it came from politicians being forced to respond to outside pressure from powerful forces - progressive organizations, socialist organizations, organized Labor.

The binary system, the two party system, is no excuse for us. No matter how many parties there were, no matter how many options, our job, our duty is the same.

President Obama said something similar over and over during his campaign. He wants to follow our lead, we need to participate.

[Two Americas]

40. important point

"President Obama said something similar over and over during his campaign. He wants to follow our lead, we need to participate."

In a representative democracy the politicians follow the people, the people are not supposed to follow the politicians. The calls here for us to follow the politicians sabotages the process, and that is being done in order to drive the party to the right. When we don't lead, then the wealthy and powerful few have no opposition and will control the politicians - the wealthy and powerful few will lead. Then we follow the politicians, the politicians follow the wealthy and powerful few, democracy collapses, and conditions get worse and worse.

[elizfeelinggreat]

3. I think it's shameful

that the kids in some schools are bombarded by ADs as they walk down the corridors. Ads for soda and fast food. I would not want to be a teacher trying to get the attention of students who have just had two cans of soda and supersized fries. (And I would have happily eaten that junk in school if it was so easy to get everyday.)

Really, I think it's horrible that this has happened. Thanks for posting this.

[Donnachaidh]

10. my son's high school is set up like a mall food court

I was stunned when I first spotted that. Talk about brainwashing kids into thinking fast food is the only way to eat. :eyes:

[donco6]

11. I'm resisting outsourcing very strongly. But I'll probably lose.

We're bombarded every year by the Sodexho and Aramark folks, promising the moon. My board is beginning to be swayed. I know that if they come in, the first thing to go will be my workers' benefits. No more health care for them! That's the main reason most of them work.

The second thing that will happen is they'll replace all my equipment with their own. We'll have to sell ours, which means we'll face a huge obstacle if we decide to dump them in the future. I have no place to store this stuff.

My collegues in other districts have repeated the same story over and over: They'll promise anything, and never deliver. But it doesn't seem to matter.

You know, though, after reading all the comments here, I may be glad to get out of this aspect of my job altogether. People seem to think I sit around all day looking for ways to screw people. Well, here you go! Call Sodexho and see how far you get with that.

[Lars39]

13. An unintended consequence of privatizing lunch room services:

The company with the contract controls the lunchroom facilities, too. Say you wanted to hold a community meeting there...the group meeting would have to pay to be able to have their meeting in the public school lunchroom. In some communities that space might be the larges meeting space available.

[Thickasabrick]

16. Perhaps we should change the discussion to the dangers of bologna

sandwiches.

[ConcernedCanuk]

20. Ack - I remember Bologna sammiches, much preferred Peanut Butter with jam/jelly/bananas

.
.
.

but NOW

Peanut butter sammiches are ILLEGAL in schools for fear some kid will trade it to an allergic one

HOW DID WE EVER SURVIVE back in the 50's and 60's without all these restrictions

makes one wonder don't it?

AND

We walked, yeah WALKED the two miles to school - and home again

and still had enough energy left when we got home to drive our parents half nuts

NOW

I see kids getting a ride on a school bus to go HALF A MILE

Not much wonder they got no muscles to shovel snow or dig a garden

yayzuss!!

[smoogatz]

17. It's a problem at the university level, too.

Our U has an exclusive food-service contract with a big national outfit. Dorm food, student union food, food at on-campus events (receptions, parties, etc.), you name it, all from one company. All ranging from terrible to mediocre. All really expensive. Not much choice and no other options closer than a mile or so. No way to bring in a few decent franchises, even, to shake things up and bring a bit of variety/competition to the on-campus food scene. In short: it sucks, nobody likes it, but it's ultimately easier (though not necessarily cheaper) for the university than shopping for a franchise here and a franchise there, or, God forbid, hiring actual chefs to plan menus and cook decent meals.

[Cha]

18. Rec'd~ Oh yeah..it

wouldn't be regulated so they could serve whatever low cost "food" they wanted unless the School wanted healthy and they had to bid on that concept?

But, what am I saying.."health" is always deemed too expensive unless you're looking at the long run and the big pic.

[unapatriciated]

19. That's the problem too many short-sighted people with no health insurance...

unable to afford glasses so as to see the big picture.

[Cha]

21. I know..and too addicted

to junk food.

This is encouraging to me..

<snip>

"Pres. Obama has tapped Kathleen Merrigan, an academic and former congressional aide who helped write federal organic food-labeling rules, to be deputy agriculture secretary. The White House announced the pick yesterday, drawing cheers from food-safety advocates, who have pushed for more stringent labeling regs.

"Merrigan will bring an excellent perspective to a number of troublesome labeling issues now before the agency," Jean Halloran, Consumers Union's director of food policy initiatives, said in a statement. Among the matters that need to be addressed, she said: loopholes in the current "grass fed" standard, lack of uniformity in meat marketing claims, defining "raised without antibiotics" label claims, and weaknesses in the current definition of "naturally raised."


http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=kathleen-merrigan-organic-foods-exp-2009-02-24

[NashVegas]

25. Was the Albuquerque District Privatized Lunch Service? I Didn't Realize That

Are you sure they are privatized?

[Fireweed247]

29. we need to kick the corporations out of our lunch rooms

And I found the solution to this whole cheese sandwich business...get rid of the Chick Fil A, the sodas, the fried frozen lunches that so many here think are healthy...and set up soup and sandwich bars...free soup and sandwiches for all at a much lower cost I am sure. This would take one, maybe two lunch ladies to manage, kids could make their own sandwich(a valuable talent) and the children would be so much healthier and doing better in class. Most parents who think their kids are getting a great hot lunch at school just haven't been to a school lately. Kids throw out most of the things that parents consider healthy, then load up on the extra junk food the school is selling. Some of the 'lunches' have so much sugar in them, the kids are bouncing off of the walls in their classes afterward. I say we throw it all out and start over.

[Two Americas]

30. we need to draw the line

There is a humanitarian issue here, of course, and it is encouraging to hear people express compassion for the children trapped in this situation, and truly disgusting sand disturbing to see the callous and authoritarian arguments others are making.

But there is a political issue here, as well. Privatization of public services and public resources of any kind, particularly involving public education, cannot be included in any "big tent" or we surrender any pretense at having any fundamental disagreement with the political right wing.

Every sort of right wing idea has now weaseled its way into the discussion among Democrats, has gained legitimacy, is being given consideration. Until and unless we draw the line, the encroachment and infiltration will continue until the party is a hollow shell not worth supporting.

To surrender on privatization in public education is to abandon public education altogether, and to abandon public services altogether - to undermine and sabotage the very concept of public services. If we fail to fight vigorously against this, that is the equivalent of surrender.

We must draw the line here. This battle must be fought. If it cannot be effectively fought here, then we need to take the battle to an arena where it can be effectively fought.

No surrender on this. No compromise. No complacency or resignation.

We must draw the line. We must start fighting. The longer we put it off, the worse things will get and the more difficult it will be when we finally do fight. We will have to fight this someday, because it will sooner or later be a matter of survival.


...

[Dukkha]

32. really? we need another pointless thread about this non issue?

get on with your "lives" people

:eyes:

[Two Americas]

37. that is rude and hypocritical

If this thread is not worth anything, then why are you posting on it?

I have expressed some thoughts here about the importance of this issue. You are free to read those and make your case that this is not an important issue. I look forward to that discussion - I welcome it. I specifically talk about whether or not this issue is important. I apparently hold a different view. Make your case, rather than doing a hit and run snipe on the thread.

Make your case, if you can.

Why would you not want people to discuss this, and want to inject your ridicule and dismissal to the discussion, and tell people they shouldn't consider or discuss this subject? Why do you not want people to consider reading what is on this thread?

[zeemike]

42. On the contrary Dukkha I think the cheese sandwich threads

Are some of the most important issues we have discussed here.
if we can't do what is right and sensible for children then what can we do?
It is really at the heart of the issue...Whether we continue our selfish and dysfunctional ways or chang. Children are the cannery in the coal mine.

[zeemike]

41. I am with you one that

And I am not surprised by the results of that study at all.
I say federalize the school lunch and make sure all children in every state gets a hot meal of good food every day.
It is the least we can do for education.