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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 01:53 PM
Original message
The War in Iraq
I have hesitated to post this here because I see how easily someone can say one word people don't like and suddenly they are subjected to taunts of being a Freeper, a conservative, whatever.

If you are honest though and have noticed any of my other posts, my leftist creds are just fine. I am 53, a lesbian, an activist and have been a leftist longer than lots of you have even been alive. I protested the Viet Nam war. I protest this war. I usually side with Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan, Tina, etc.

I just got the shock of my life and would like some input on it. It kind of turned my world upside down. I have been one of the ones calling for IMMEDIATE withdrawal...as in...YESTERDAY.

I was afraid if I posted what I am about to tell you, on DU, I would probably be tarred and feathered and definitely accused of having questionable politics. Still, I am willing to risk it because I respect MOST of you guys and I would like to share this opinion and I would like feedback.

My girlfriend Melanie is an administrator in the graduate department of electrical and computer engineering at The University of Texas. 49% of those graduate students in that field are international students. We have LOTS of friends from other countries and most of those are from the Middle East. Good friends, best friends, close friends. One of them is a very cool and liberal guy named Bilal. He is a Pakistani Muslim working on his doctorate. He is one of our closest friends. He is a liberal by our definition. He is FROM Pakistan. It is where he was born and raised and where his family is. He is only here for school.

Anyway, we were discussing the war with him and I got the surprise of my life. He said that of course he hates George Bush. He hates him with a fiery passion. We should never have gone there, etc. He also said though, if you asked your "ordinary" Iraqi, Pakistani, or anyone else in the Middle East, they are as shocked by our left-wing as they are by Bush. I am not talking about El Queda, (sp.) members; I am not talking about Taliban members. They do want us gone. I am talking your ordinary citizen. Families who go to work every day, have kids in school, etc. Ordinary Folks.

THEY are horrified at the idea of a complete, sudden and total withdrawal of our forces. We have killed 100s of 1000s of Iraqis, almost totally destroyed their infrastructure and they are still at the mercy of various despots. He said the idea of us just leaving without fixing what WE have done, scares the hell out of them and they cannot possibly see how people of conscience...our leftists...could think it is OK to do what we have done...BREAK THEIR FUCKING COUNTRY and then just say..."buh bye".

Now I have no idea what I think and my world has been turned upside down...<g> i would love some input on this.
Lee
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The_Casual_Observer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. How much worse can it possibly get there?
How many more bombs would go off every day if we left?
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I don't know the answer
He was mostly worried about the many despots still there and in power and willing to kill anyone and the broken infrastructure. Their country is a shambles.

I admit, this conversation upset me a lot.
Lee
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. We can still have some support there...
Edited on Tue Mar-27-07 02:00 PM by Patmccccc
But the bulk of the military must leave, at least to the perimeter of Iraq. They are creating far more death by being there, NOT less imo (and in many generals opinion). Does your friend read the posts in DU. He should.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Good Idea!
I should send him a link and have him join DU. What a good suggestion.
Thanks.
Lee
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. That's why I support the Tikkun proposal for withdrawal.
An Ethical Way to End the War in Iraq.


Now that the toothless resolution disapproving of the Bush escalation has passed without making any impact on the President, a growing number of Americans are beginning to realize that the real issue is the war itself, not merely the latest escalation of it, and that the war in Iraq is unlikely to end until Congress specifically cuts the funding for the war and refuses to pass any funding authorization for the Dept. of Defense until the troops are headed safely home. Many Americans are not ready to make that demand on their Congressional representatives quite yet. They want to know what will happen next after funds are cut. To answer that, and strengthen Congressional resolve to end the war, the peace forces need to introduce a new ethical and spiritual vision of how America could change the way it acts and is perceived in the world. Here’s how.

I. The War is Wrong: Repentance Is Necessary

The remedy for wrong-doing begins not only with the act of changing the path (stop funding war) but also with apology and repentance (in the Biblical sense repentance conveys a return to one’s highest self after one has gone astray and betrayed one’s highest values). Therefore, we propose that the President (or, if he won’t, then the Congress should send representatives who) go before the U.N. and acknowledge that it was wrong for the U.S. to invade Iraq, that hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been killed and wounded in the chain of events that our invasion precipitated. For the sufferings and deaths that have come for this invasion he should ask for forgiveness on behalf of himself and the American people who overwhelmingly supported this great wrong.

The scripture declares:

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
(II Chronicles 7:14 KJV)

It is not a sign of weakness to confess wrong-doing. We believe that it is only the spiritually strong who are able to do this. Such a confession will go far to restore the stature of America as a truly moral nation. And in repenting on behalf of all Americans, including those who are not religious, the president (or Congress) should acknowledge that this entire society has mistakenly adhered to the view that safety and security can be achieved through domination or control of others, but that a better path to safety and security is to treat others with generosity, kindness and genuine concern for their well being.

It seems unlikely that the President would pursue this path, so we urge the Congress to pass a resolution rejecting the strategy of domination and embracing the strategy of generosity, and calling upon the world’s peoples to forgive our society for the destructive path it has followed. It should then convey this appeal for forgiveness on behalf of the American people to the peoples of the world.

II. Let the Arab League, the U.N. and International Peace Forces Replace U.S. and British Forces

Fellow Arabs and Muslims know the language, understand the culture, and especially the religion of the people of Iraq far better than do our own soldiers, who usually perceived as modern-day imitators of the Crusaders who once devastated Muslim countries. Volunteers from Muslim and non-Muslim countries should be able to provide protection for Sunni, Shia and Kurdish interests. The U.S. and Britain should withdraw all our forces as this Arab, Muslim and International force takes our place and conducts a plebiscite to allow the people to determine their own future. The U.S. should give our military bases to this force, and require that any U.S. corporation operating in Iraq give at least the majority of its profits to the task of Iraqi reconstruction.


III. Rebuild Iraq and Launch a Global Marshall Plan: Generosity Beats Domination as a Strategy for Homeland Security

True repentance requires the works of repentance. It is not enough to simply say “We’re sorry!” So the U.S. must commit the hundreds of billions needed to fully rebuild Iraq. Yet the rebuilding of Iraq should only be part of a larger Global Marshall Plan which the U.S. should announce now—to commit at least 1% of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of the U.S. each year for the next twenty years toward the goal of eliminating global and domestic poverty, homelessness, inadequate health care, inadequate education, and for repairing the environment. Just as the first Marshall Plan allocated 1.5-2% of GDP after the Second World War to the rebuilding of Europe, this second Marshall Plan, extended to the rest of the world, will provide far more homeland security for the U.S. than the currently planned military spending that will squander our resources.

The Global Marshall Plan we propose is a major step toward a Strategy of Generosity which is the key to rebuilding trust in the United States. It is this kind of generosity which is required by the Scriptures of all the Abrahamic religions and should be pursued not only because it helps increase American security and respect for America around the world, but because it is morally appropriate and religiously mandated. If our Global Marshall Plan is backed by American political leaders purely for utilitarian reasons, it will be far less successful than if it supported and perceived by others around the world to have been supported by Americans because of a genuine caring for others and not solely because it is in our security interests to do so. Fostering an ethos of genuine caring for others—countering the ethos of selfishness, materialism and me-firstism that has been the “common sense” of a cynical media and our market-driven-culture—must become the highest domestic and foreign policy priority for our society.

We, the undersigned, support the concept of repentance and generosity as central to the way to end the war in Iraq. We call upon our elected officials, media, and fellow citizens to give serious consideration to the strategy outlined above which requires a fundamental rethinking of what can really provide security for the U.S.

Drafted by Rev. Tony Campolo and Rabbi Michael Lerner, and signed by Sister Joan Chittister, Cornel West, Sheikh Kabir Helminski, Rev. Glen Harold Stassen, Rev. Rick Ufford Chase, Rabbi Aryeh Cohen, Howard Zinn, Robert Inchasti, Jeffrey Kuan, Thomas Moore, Rabbi Marcia Prager, Douglas Rushkoff, Svi Shapiro, Rabbi Stephn B. Jacobs, Marshall Berman, Donald Gelpi S.J., Res. John and Susan Gregory-Davis, Father Luis Barrios, Deepak Chopra, Rev.Deborah Johnson, Mitchell Plitnick, Thomas Powers, Kirk Schneider, Rick Simon, Archbishop Sergius, Rachel Simon, Robert and Barbara Trumbull, Stanley Klein, Phyllis T. Albritton, Youseph Yazdi, Julie Heston, Pat Gottschalk, Michael Wolfe, Amanda Strosahl, , Cathy Sultan, Marcia Halpern, Louise Clark, Kimberly Vossler, Michael Bresnahan, David Knechel, Lon Ball, Robert Lange, Robert Wolfe, David Sheidlower, Gregory Halpern, Marian Dobbs, Maureeen Wesolowski, Donna Loving, Jonathan Jacoby, Ivy Glick, Bruce Billings, Thomas Newman, Linda B. Belle, Irfan Kahn, Angelina Fiordelisi, Jerome Griffin, Ann Holub, Cathy Webster, Curtis Hamilton, Hiroko M. Crispin, Michael Pearson…and YOU (if you can donate over $300 and there is space, we hope to list your name here, but whatever you donate is very needed if we are to raise the money needed to publish this in media around the U.S.—and all names will be listed on line at www.tikkun.org/iraqpeace

When Jesus said “Love your enemies,” we think he probably meant: don’t kill them.

http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php?story=20070228100934336


Dennis Kucinich isn't far off from it. :shrug:
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. THis is a good plan - any way you slice it we owe Iraq bigtime for trashing their country
Dropping out, coming home, and naval gazing for a little while isn't going to repay that debt.

I really like this plan, at least as an outline.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Agreed. I've not seen anything nearly as 'right' as an alternative.
Edited on Tue Mar-27-07 02:36 PM by TahitiNut
This one meets my ethical standards.

(I guess I'm on Madspirit's Ignore list.) :shrug:

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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. Odd that every poll in Iraq I've seen concludes the opposite.
So I guess your select sample of elites just aren't representative.

"Polling organizations have carried out many opinion surveys in Iraq since March 2003. The results of these polls, including those sponsored by the US <1> and UK<2> governments, show clearly that Iraqis have been very critical of the foreign forces in their country.

A poll, carried out in mid-2006 for the US Department of State and reported by the Washington Post, found that “a strong majority of Iraqis want the US-led Coalition forces to immediately withdraw from the country, saying that their swift departure would make Iraq more secure and decrease sectarian violence.”<3> The results in Baghdad, according to the Post, showed that nearly three-quarters of residents polled said “they would feel safer if US and other foreign forces left Iraq,” with 65 percent in favor of an immediate pullout.<4> "

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/occupation/report/iraqipublicopinion.htm


We cannot fix Iraq. Saying we have to stay there killing Iraqis until we fix the mess we made is nonsense. Just replace that with "we will stay in Iraq forever, killing Iraqis as we see fit". It is the same thing.
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lizbitchwitchy Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Absolutely
Even the ISG concluded that every leader, whether an elected official or just a voice for the people - even the Sunnis want the US out of their country. Yet we sit around claiming that they need to take matters into their own hands and they aren't stepping up to the plate - yet here they are trying and we are ignoring their requests. It's amazing how damned blatant we are and hipocrytical.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I wasn't reading polls
I was talking to real people...my GOOD friend who is not an elitist. You know, poor Middle Easterners who have to have every family member save all their money for years just to get one kid into college. Regular folks. I don't give a rat's ass what a poll says...when I have real people from THERE to talk to.
Lee
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Could you ask him ?
Or have the last reponse read to him. What does he say about these polls. There have been many like this. Some polls do show near 70% (and even more) of Iraqis not wanting us there.
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. well said
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. i would take it to mean-
they are frightened. they are not thinking straight, like so many of our own citizens. they want a big brother. and quite likely, like same us citizens, they do not really know what is being done in their name.
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Jacobin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. He is one person. There are polls done in Iraq on this subject
The last one I recall indicated that more than half of Iraqis wanted us to leave immediately, and that most of the others wanted us gone within a fairly short time frame.

The idea that the U.S. is going to 'fix' Iraq, sadly is a fiction, a fantasy that is belied by our presence there for the last four years.

Iraq and its predecessor nations did a pretty damn good job of creating their own countries in the past 2000 years. We supported Saddam in the 1980's to act as a wedge against Iran and we basically created the last beast that ruled their country.

In the long run and really in the medium run, they are going to have to fight it out and figure out who they want to rule them. When they do, they can rebuild with enormous oil wealth and if there is any justice in the world, by fines placed on the US for illegally invading their country and destroying it.

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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Not everything
Once again, I don't give a rat's ass what a poll says when I can talk to real people. They don't expect us to fix everything...just what WE broke.
Lee
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Ok fine but...
Edited on Tue Mar-27-07 03:36 PM by endarkenment
You use the opinion of one Pakistani Muslim as grounds for claiming that this is how 'the people of the region feel'. Your poll sample is one, and he is not even an Iraqi. I'll go with the 70% of iraqis who it seems would like us out now, or better yet two years ago.

And furthermore, you have simply restated the 'pottery barn theory'. We cannot stay there until it is fixed because our presence is continuing to cause new damage. We've been fixing our damage now for four years and it just gets worse every year. Why is that?

'Broke it fix it' is just one more neocon lie for why we need to camp out on top of their oil. The Pottery Barn, by the way, does not subscribe to the pottery barn theory.

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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. We do have a responsibility...
...to clean up the mess that the Bush Administration has caused.

We can do that by assisting them financially for the first year in their rebuilding, but the Iraqi government is going to have to do the work, and hire the people. No Halliburton contracts, no outside contractors coming in to do the work. The point is, to get the Iraqi people back to work, earning a living again, and supporting their families like they were before the United States came in and destroyed that.

Personally, I think the money to finance it should be drained from Bush, Cheney, and every other neo-con chicken hawk's bank account. Make all of those that have done nothing but use the U.S. treasury as their own little personal piggy bank bankroll it...but that's just me.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I like your ideas!
Take all the money spent on the war and send it to fix stuff WE broke.
Lee
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Iwasthere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. The many pallets of cash
I think it was 8 BILLION dollars would come in handy here. So what ever happened to THAT story? Oh, and the British memos too, why are they ignored???
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. You got it! The jobless rate for Iraqis are dreadful!

Halliburton did not hire them to put Iraq together again. This is madness. Or, a no-brainer. Halliburton hired people from all over the World to work for them, Yet, precious few Iraqis... Tells me the bushies don't give a damn about that country, just the dollars they can scoop up from this disaster.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. I sympathize with you. I think if bush* started saying
"we need to stay for a year or so, because we fucked up so much that now our presence is saving lives", people would listen. Instead, he has delusions of "victory".
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. Polls, just btw
Polls always say exactly what the particular poll taker wants them to say. That's why polls taken by Republican organizations always somehow come out supporting the Republican position and polls taken by Democratic organizations always somehow come out supporting the Democratic position. This is why I feel blessed to be able to talk to actual PEOPLE from the region.
Lee
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lyonn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. Since he is Pakistani he may be associating his country with
Edited on Tue Mar-27-07 03:15 PM by lyonn
Iraq. We will not bail out of Afghanistan. Matter of fact we almost did to move troops to Iraq as Geo. was more interested in doing in Saddam than attacking Al Queada (sp). It seems that the U.S. presence in Iraq is a major part of the escalation of killings in that country.

There are no absolutes when it comes to Iraq. We do owe a responsibility to restore the damage we have caused to their country. But, by having our heavy equipment and forces patrolling the major streets seems to me to be a constant irritant to Iraqis. Yes, we are occupiers. No one wants a country that is not even your neighbor to stomp in and take over and make new rules. Yet there is the issue of Sunnis vs Shiites vs Kurds, etc. It seems our job is to us what diplomatic pressures we can apply to divide up the oil and power to all parties. Patrolling streets with heavy equip. and military might is not winning friends and influencing people.

If Iraq is so critical to peace in the ME and controlling the terror problem is a world wide problem, then why are No Other Countries helping us there, OK, a few Brits? We are alone in this fiasco in Iraq. We have no backing from any other country. Does this not tell the U.S. that we are going about saving Iraq in the wrong way and direction?
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. My position hasn't changed a lot
Bilal is one of our closest friends but my position on the war still has not changed a lot. I am just more confused. I don't want us there but I don't just want to abandon. Bilal hates Bush even more than we do. He is ordinarily the most peaceful of men...(one reason I am not totally sure an invitation here would be good...<g>>..He doesn't even say "fuck" let alone..."fuck you, your mother and your little dog too"...). Anyway, he is ordinarily the most peaceful man I know unless you mention Bush. His eyes actually turn from brown to red and he starts sputtering. He hates that man. He just doesn't like the way we've left it all rubble.
Lee
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kaal Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. The US will not fix the problem in Iraq
... The US never helped fix Vietnam... did it?

In truth, the US should never have entered Iraq, because it was a formula for disaster from the word go. If the US had patience to convince the UN and it worked to included into coalition, allies like France, Germany and other friendly Arab Nations, We'd never be in the current state.

The US could have fixed the problem after successfully entering Baghdad, but greed to win the "spoils of war" was the overriding factor..... Then in came Ambassador Paul Bremer III, a recipient of the Presidential Medal of Freedom! Paul Bremer set in motion a plan to guarantee a civil war..... He cut off all communication with Sunni leaders, dissolved the Iraqi Army, which his predecessor was Garner was bringing back to restore order and then Bremer ensured the Shia came to power, by insisting on a Proportional Representative election! (something that doesn't even exist in either the US or the UK...!) I personally believe the US should have ensured a power sharing Government with Shia 1/3, Sunni 1/3 and Kurds 1/3.

Any fix to Iraq MUST conform to Iraqi traditions, culture, tribal system, religion etc etc etc... sadly the US Military and Admin has shown absolutely no respect or understanding of what makes Iraq tick. Moreover, the US does not have a track record of being in a similar situation and solving the problems independently. In fact the US is in new territory, yet it doesn't give a damn what anyone thinks about its decisions.

Consider that the US has only recently admitted and worked to tackle the problem of Shia militia killing Sunnis. It's been going on for a very long time and I suspect a blind eye was deliberately turned, because they assumed the Shia were purging Baath party member.


Nations that can help will never step in to help America turn the Iraq war into a success.....


The only solution is for the US to get out of Iraq and hand over to a completely new coalition. The US military presence in Iraq is the problem.
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Madspirit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-27-07 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
26. K. hoping for more input....n/t
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