so was Tillman killed because he knew something? or a high profile that did not believe Bush?

[greenbriar]

Even his mom is raising questions???


such a sad life's end

[xchrom]

1. ya know -- i honestly don't know.

people kill each other for all kinds of reasons.

[fooj]

2. IMHO, a bit of both.

[oldpolicy]

3. I think I read that he was becoming very disillustioned with

the invasion and starting to be vocal about what was going on. Whether it was an accident or deliberate to keep him quiet - we'll probably never know.

[INDIA]

6. Which invasion?

Iraq or Afghanistan? Because he was in Afghanistan, and myself and the majority of DU'ers would agree that action was completely justified. You have to be pretty fringe to disagree.

I really doubt you read that anywhere, from a reliable source at least. And from what I've read, Tillman was an outstanding soldier, and good soldiers are rarely vocal about political issues while on Active Duty.

[Gold Metal Flake]

9. See my post below for source.

His mother describes his belief that the Iraq invasion was illegal.

[INDIA]

15. That is possible. Makes sense. Him being purposely killed...

in some sort of conspiracy/assasination? Not possible. Doesn't make sense.

[Gold Metal Flake]

17. I don't know enough to say it's "not possible".

I will wait and watch for the truth. You may do as you please.

[DemBones DemBones]

18. A conspiracy only takes two people, does not

require approval of higher-ups (in this case, Army officers or the Pentagon or White House.) Two soldiers could have conspired to kill Tillman. Others could have been involved or ordered it but in the final analysis, two people is all it takes to form a conspiracy.

Whether there was a conspiracy is speculative, remains to be proven. Exactly what happened may never be known except to the killers.

There was definitely a cover-up. The Army didn't want to admit they'd killed their own poster boy.

People tend to say "conspiracy theory" to discredit any examination of events they don't want examined.

I think the parents have a right to know why they were told so many different lies, why their son's clothes and diary were burned after his death, etc.

[greenbriar]

19. well stated

and good points

[INDIA]

40. the OP implies a Bush conspiracy.

And speculating that his friends in the Rangers did it is a smear at best.

[DemBones DemBones]

His mother, Mary Tillman, said that Pat

was opposed to the war in IRAQ.

He was indeed serving in Afghanistan when he was killed and obviously enlisted to support that war.

She also pointed out that his death came right after the Abu Ghraib scandal broke and after the deadliest (at that time) month in the war in Iraq.

Check it out on the rerun of Olberman later.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. His mother, Mary Tillman, ALSO said

that one general who KNEW Pat had been killed by friendly fire attended his memorial service and that the Army gave a friend of Pat's (a Navy SEAL) a eulogy to read which said he was killed by enemy fire.

[frylock]

27. you have to be pretty fringe to disagree..

what, exactly, did Afghanistan do to warrant being attacked?

[brentspeak]

30. It wasn't "Afghanistan" that was attacked; it was the Taliban

And actually, yours' is the "fringe position"; even Michael Moore supported the invasion in retaliation against the Taliban.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. Nonetheless, a lot of Afghan people were killed,

including kids picking up cluster bombs by mistake. I'd imagine many in Afghanistan believe we attacked their country, not just the Taliban.

My personal opinion was that we should have focused on tracking down Osama bin Laden and his cohorts in Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, not taking out the Taliban and setting up a new government.

[frylock]

38. mine is the informed position

[TahitiNut]

36. "You have to be pretty fringe to disagree"?? Bullshit.

Nice attempt at a preemptive personal attack. Here we have yet another "anyone who disagrees with me is a moron and a freeper" ploy ... which is so, so civil and respectful of conscientious and principled disagreement.

"Carpet of gold or carpet of bombs!" Ever heard of that?

Oil/gas pipelines 'OWNED' by a consortium of global corporatists paying alleged "royalties" instead of owned by the People of Afghanistan and operated as a SERVICE on the "free market" at prevailing rates.

The Taliban government of Afghanistan offered to extradite Osama bin Laden to a third country given reasonable evidence of guilt ... and the Cheney/Bush cabal refused, claiming they had to be sure of getting him "Dead or Alive." How's that worked out?? Huh?

The Taliban government of Afghanistan had eradicated the opium production. It's back. That's a 'bonus' for the Cheney/Bush cabal ... there's MONEY in the War on (Some) Drugs.

Karzai is a corporatist stooge - a colonial governor. Afghanistan is now a corporate colony ... and the "natives are restless."

A 'legal' War is a LAST RESORT! The invasion and occupation of Afghanistan was a foregone conclusion even before 9/11.

[newyawker99]

39. Hi oldpolicy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[INDIA]

4. Oh come on...

The conspiracy theories on DU site know no boundaries.

There MIGHT HAVE BEEN a coverup, with officers, NCOs trying to cover their asses, but "Tillman killed because he knew something?"


BARF :puke:

[greenbriar]

5. oh come on...his own mom is raising this issue

did you not hear???

[INDIA]

7. No. I didn't. Please post a link? Thanks. n/t

[Gold Metal Flake]

8. Radio interview on Dan Patrick's sports show.

Keith Olbermann replayed the interview on his show, which will repeat at 12 midnight EDT. Set your VCR.

Check Olbermann's page at MSNBC later for a possible transcript.

:hi:

[greenbriar]

11. Olberman and Patricks radio show

and later replayed on today's countdown...


pay attention

[brentspeak]

22. She didn't claim he was murdered

Don't forget that the the same Rangers who accidentally killed Tillman were good friends with him. Unless there's some legitimate evidence pointing towards foul play, suggesting that Tillman was fragged is an outrageous insult to guys who are already disconsolate over what happened. The crime was what happened afterward with the Army's cover-up and phony-baloney accounts.

[Jacobin]

26. I heard her interview. She said she was suspicious about murder

but didn't think the truth would ever come out

[dflprincess]

10. Yet, they finally admitted to his mother that his diary was burned

after first telling her it could not be found.

[greenbriar]

12. and his clothes

covering up possible fragging???

[dflprincess]

32. I'm thinking the diary was probably burned because Tillman

may have recorded his thoughts about Afghanastan and Iraq. Had the diary been returned to his parents and, assuming he had written any negative opinions on either front or maybe even Bush, and his parents went public with the diary, he would have lost his value as a recruting tool.

I don't know if his death was a fragging or not (though it seems strange his clothes were burned - weren't they evidence?). Perhaps his opinions had become general knowledge and the brass was worried about what he'd say to the media when he got home.

[Irreverend IX]

14. How would a "Tillman assassination" be organized?

Do you think there were covert operatives acting as regular troops in the unit that fired on Tillman? I have a hard time seeing how Tillman's death could have been planned; IIRC, two groups of sleep-deprived, jumpy soldiers started firing on each other after a land mine blew up nearby and made them think they were under attack. Deliberately orchestrating something like that would require a huge, implausible conspiracy.

[Canuckistanian]

16. Don't be so incredulous. "Fragging" is not unheard of.

And in the fog of war, no one dusts for fingerprints.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. No "huge, implausible conspiracy" is required to kill a man.

Two soldiers agreeing to kill a man is a conspiracy. There could have been a larger conspiracy, but two is all it takes to conspire.

There was certainly a much larger conspiracy to cover up the fact that Tillman was killed by "friendly fire." Several generals were involved, at a minimum, according to the information the Tillmans have now.

[Irreverend IX]

29. There was certainly a conspiracy to cover up his death...

But I have a hard time seeing how his shooting wasn't a random accident. If some soldiers had it in for him and wanted to shoot him, how could they have manipulated the events to make it look like a normal friendly fire incident? Remember, Tillman wasn't shot by members of his own group but by a bunch of guys from another unit. The perpetrators would have to know that their unit would be patrolling in the same area as Tillman's, plant and set off a bomb to provoke the crossfire, and be able to figure out which member of the other unit was Tillman at a distance.

If Tillman had gone off with a couple of other guys to patrol and they came back without him, told a story about a firefight with Taliban troops, and later Tillman's body was found with wounds in the back of the head that looked like they were made by M16 bullets, you'd have a viable case for a conspiracy.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. Yes, there was, and I was just making the point

that it would only require two people to have a conspiracy to assassinate someone. (One person acting alone is just a murderer, two are co-conspirators to commit murder.)

I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy to kill Tillman, only that there could have been and that it only takes two to have a conspiracy.

It's a RW talking point to laugh at "conspiracy theories" as if a few far-out conspiracy theories somehow prove that conspiracies do not exist.

[Corgigal]

41. RW talking point to laugh at "conspiracy theories"

ONLY when it doesn't involved a Clinton. Then all bets are off.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lonestarnot]

23. Questions should have been raised long ago.

That is one of the problems of war. I hate fucking war!

[greenbriar]

24. so true

but I think the climate is better now

[lonestarnot]

28. Acccck. The military does crimes, all is fair in war.

[brentspeak]

25. People: don't go making accusations about fragging unless you know something we don't

Which I already know you don't.

Pat's younger brother, Kevin, who served with him, has had some of his articles linked to DU from various blogs. He gets feedback and replies back to his blog entries from DUers courtesy of those links. The other Rangers involved in the friendly fire incident were, by all accounts, good friends with Pat and Kevin Tillman, and the insinuation that they were up to no good is an outrageous accusation, especially since they're already disconsolate over what occurred.

Out of respect for all involved, people should shut their traps (or keyboards) on the topic of "fragging".

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

34. People: The chimperor is NOT a vindictive murderous psychopath

who probably orders a dozen of these "accidents" every times he's sober enough to turn on the teevee. He's a good man working hard to protect us from evil Arabs!

[greenbriar]

37. bwhahaha

good one