Pope says Hell is Real

[Philosoraptor]

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,21460090-954,00.html

HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said.

Addressing a parish gathering in a northern suburb of Rome, the Pope said that in the modern world many people, including some believers, had forgotten that if they failed to "admit blame and promise to sin no more", they risked "eternal damnation - the inferno".

Hell "really exists and is eternal, even if nobody talks about it much any more".

...is Evolution real? No, but Hell is.

[bryant69]

1. This belongs in the religion forum

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[zanne]

114. Yes; it does belong in the religion forum.

I don't think the rules apply today.

[Turbineguy]

2. Was he speaking

on Faux Noise?

[kiahzero]

3. So, basically he worships a sadistic egotist?

"Do as I say, or I'll torture you forever!"

Sounds "all-loving" to me. :eyes:

[Cha]

86. Sounds like

Shyte and fear based doesn't cut it for me.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

4. If you say so, Your Popiness.

I say it's a medieval superstition.

The real hell is what people do to each other.

[ClintonTyree]

32. I'm constantly amazed...

by the number of people that still believe in a literal translation of the bible. Jonah and whale, the parting of the Red Sea, water into wine, walking on water and the like. :silly: How convenient that all of these things happened when very few people could read or write, most were totally uneducated and superstition was the guiding principle of everyday life. I believe the earth was flat at that time as well. My, how the earth has evolved since then. ;) Too bad some people haven't. I guess old superstitions are hard to leave behind, but really, it's the 21st century for crying out loud. Get a grip on yourself people. :) As I see it, believing on 2000 year old myths doesn't say much about some people's intelligence.

[patrice]

41. I think this is because people have lost the cognitive ability to

identify valid "meta-truths", commonly referred to as metaphors, so, because they need these kinds of truth to function, they depend upon authority to provide them.

[caledesi]

73. Good post. I get so annoyed when these "Christians" quote

the bible like it was fact. No, it is FAITH-BASED not FACT-BASED. So, if you believe it literally, fine, but don't quote as fact.

I hate the cherry-picking thing too. If you want to dis gays, well go to the Old Testament. How convenient!

Also, being reared RC, I get really upset with the ignorance. No wonder the RCs did not interpret the bible literally. The ignorance is such phrases as 'don't worship craven images'....well the RC believes that too! When the bible first appeared, not even kings could read...that is why there were stain glass and other paintings...so the people could "read" through pictures. Statues were MUSES to inspire...any RC knows that.

I am not a practicing RC, but they had a point. I don't like what the pope said. It is so anti-RC thinking...don't interpret the bible literally, but with all these people leaving the RC Church and going to Fundyville....they now have bible classes etc in RC schools.

Now I know why I am against organized religion.

[PVnRT]

5. Gee, imagine that

The leader of the Catholic Church asserting hell is real. Earth-shattering news!

[rkc3]

26. Next he'll remind us that bears shit in the woods.

[geardaddy]

80. Or as Steve Martin asked,

"Does the pope shit in the woods?"

Edit: spelling

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. It does seem to be a change in doctrine

From the article:

In 1999, pope John Paul II said heaven was "neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but that fullness of communion with God, which is the goal of human life".

Hell, by contrast, was "the ultimate consequence of sin itself. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".

[caledesi]

76. Yes. That's what I mean by interpretation.. See my post above. nt

[Cha]

89. From what I've read the last

Pope John(was it?) wouldn't have gone around spewing hell and damnation.

[rpannier]

6. They didn't talk about it for the first 400 years either

It's only when the Church leaders decided to create fear in people that hell suddenly took center stage.
Prior to that, Christians focused on the teachings of Jesus and heavenly rewards.
Not punishment from God.

[Philosoraptor]

8. Hell is sort of a political sledgehammer

[DCKit]

18. Really, what did Jesus have to say about it?

I don't recall ever, ever reading anything about that.

Like the rapture, another (convenient) construct.

[rpannier]

27. If you study the artwork and bodies of literature from the very early era of the Church

you will find very little emphasis on hell and a greater emphasis on Jesus and his teachings.
It's only as the Church evolved (or devolves) that the focus seems to shift toward what happens to you if you're bad.
I think it's partly due to the increasing power that the Bishops accrued and when the Roman Empire finally fell, Europe became a more uncertain place and people became more fearful, so hell became an easier sell.
Plus as you get further from an event people's recollection of things becomes hazier and easier to manipulate.

[Donnachaidh]

33. Hell became a profit stream for the church

Wealthy patrons could pay off Popes to absolve their sins on their deathbeds.

VERY lucrative business. Seems as if Ratzi wants to kickstart that income stream back into full swing. :sarcasm:

[fishwax]

61. also, the longer you make people wait for the carrot, the more important the stick becomes

early believers thought that Christ's return was imminent. It makes sense that, as the certainty of that became less tenuous, alternate methods of motivation/control would become important.

[Glorfindel]

52. Check out St. Mark, Chapter 9, vs. 43-48, for hell

Jesus never mentioned anything about a "rapture"

[Turbineguy]

24. Maybe the church

is looking to start selling indulgences again. I hear they need the dough. All those televangelists are scooping the pool, flying around in their private jets.

[rpannier]

35. This Pope in many ways continues to disappoint

I was never a really big supporter of the last Pope, but I could find common ground with him on a variety of issues.
This one just never ceases to amaze me.

He ought to consider cleaning up his own house first (that log in the eye stuff), rather than focus on the length of women's shorts or gay marriage.

But I can say now I know what the Church would look like if Pat Buchanan had been made Pope.

[crikkett]

53. Terra! Too bad the church didn't have color-coded alerts

just Dante's rings...

[Cha]

91. They should get back to that..

and worship the Peacemaker and not the warmonger bush.

[Deep13]

7. He cited geologic evidence for the location of hell...

...and its properties. Either that or he is just making shit up.

[Roland99]

11. There has to be a portal somewhere near Crawford, TX.

[SoCalDem]

9. worthy of CNN coverage? Hey, how's that war thing working out?

An old guy in a dress, and red hat can hold onto his fairy tales, now can't he?

:)

[rpannier]

45. Well this would never be a story if

a v-list celebrity died
or
a young blonde woman was missing

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. The last time the Catholic Church embraced fundamentalism...

Hundreds of thousands of innocent people were burned at the stake.

[rpannier]

43. That's because they were witches or demons or amway salesman or something like that

so they had to be burned.

I mean, we all know that when tortured people only reveal the truth.
They'd never make up something just to get their torturer to stop.

[no_hypocrisy]

12. We should know. We've been living in it for 6+ years.

[Philosoraptor]

14. See..? ..hell IS real.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

13. Well, he should know - he's on his way!

I'm quite certain that no Nazi would possibly gain entrance into heaven, even neglecting all the harm he has and will create with his arcane policies as Pope.

[Deep13]

17. I guess no one who did not fight for Hitler was available for the job.

:eyes:

[Akoto]

15. Well, he's a dead ringer for Emperor Palpatine, so ...

I suppose he just might know about Hell. ;)

[ClintonTyree]

16. Yeah, it's also called "The Bush White House".

And there WILL BE wailing and gnashing of teeth when the Democrats get finished investigating their countless crimes.

Yuck it up now, Georgie, the end is near! :evilgrin:

[Philosoraptor]

19. "I'm going to tell the truth and they'll think it's hell. ...Harry Truman

And when somebody yelled to Harry Truman, "Give 'em hell," he said, and I repeat, in this context, "I'm going to tell the truth and they'll think it's hell. ...

[patrice]

34. Thanks for reminding me! = My new sign for our street corner.

I keep a few blanks around and wait for the right message to present itself.

Thanks much!

[Bill McBlueState]

20. breaking news!

Leader of the world's Catholics announces that he believes in a core component of Catholic doctrine! Oh, the surprise!

[LiberalFighter]

21. Hey popie... how many times is hell mentioned in the OT?

But then again you do look like you came from Hell. Those eyes of yours are so demonic looking.

[cspanlovr]

22. Yea, and I'm Mary Queen of Scotts

[patrice]

23. We KNOW 'cause we're living it!

So I agree with the Pope in that regard.

The Pope and I probably disagree about where/when Hell is located.

I believe each and every action/behavior/event has effects that add up to this moment and what we do about that perpetuates this moment into the future. Because there are actors who deny their responsibilities in any situation, Hell IS eternal.

And the only thing you can do about it is to change how you are contributing to the creation of Hell.

Hare Krsna! Hare Rama!

[Philosoraptor]

25. president cheney obviously isn't a believer in hell.

[patrice]

39. That's because he thinks he can buy "heaven" and then

bribe everyone else to sell their souls and do the same.

[Donnachaidh]

28. think of all the donations MISSED if it doesn't

Yeah yeah Ratzi.

But you *suddenly* think limbo is not real? What -- isn't the payments for absolution fund still working? :sarcasm:

[kenny blankenship]

30. He knows. He's been there on sabbatical.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. "Heaven for the climate, Hell for the conversation" - Mark Twain

[magellan]

36. Hey, Philosoraptor, glad to see you again!

Hope all is well with you.

As for da Papa -- pffft. What a nice world this could be if authoritarians stopped abusing their power to terrify people into moral conformity. Among other things it breeds miscreants like the Taliban, al Qaeda and the GOP.

[A HERETIC I AM]

37. Little more than a marketing effort.

Religion;

Offering a band-aid for a wound created by the seller.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. Actually, the last pope said that evolution IS real.

Basically saying that the contradiction between the truth of the bible and the truth of science is just one of god's mysteries.

(Caveat: not making that argument myself.)

[Red Zelda]

40. Obviously, he's been to Central Pa.

[Annces]

42. You don't believe in punishment in the afterlife?

Nemesis, winged balancer of life,
dark-faced goddess, daughter of Justice,
you who restrain with adamantine bridles
the frivolous insolences of mortals,
and spurning the destructive violence of mankind
drive out black envy!

Beneath your unceasing, traceless orbit
is spun the grey fortune of man
and unnoticed you walk in his tracks,
you bend the neck that is proud.
Beneath your arm you ever measure out life
and ever do you lower your eye to your bosom
as you control the scales in your hand.

Be gracious, blessed dealer of justice,
Nemesis, winged balancer of life.
Nemesis the deathless goddess we sing,
Victory with slender wings, all-powerful
infallible, and the assistant to Justice,
you who in displeasure at the pride of men
carry it down into Tartarus.

(Tartarus is a kind of hell).

[patrice]

49. Author?

Please and thank you!

[Annces]

55. Mesomedes - 2nd century

Mesomedes of Crete was a Greek lyric poet and composer of the early 2nd century.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesomedes


http://www.liminalityland.com/citharode.htm



You're welcome. I learn a lot by dabbling.

[patrice]

59. I try not to get carried away, but the internet IS an incredibly rich environment!

Being, somewhat of a dabbler myself, I am also interested in the things that shape dabbling.

I'll bet you're one of those kinds of persons who enjoys picking up a dictionary and opening it anywhere and reading whatever you find.

[Annces]

60. Well I have some interest in mythology

But not the way it is taught in college, where you fall asleep, but in applying it to experience or real life. I am not all that random in what I look up, it has to spark my imagination.

[patrice]

74. I like the concepts introduced by Joseph Campbell, amongst others,

that mythology might represent older forms of cognition and, ergo, it IS reality based, though mythology, in all of its forms, including religion, DOES get turned into superstition (which is not reality based) very easily.

Thinking this way points toward meta-cognition, or meta-cognitive structures, which I think Noam Chomsky laid ground work for over 20 years ago in his work on "transformational grammar", but there are others: an early influence on me was Robert Graves's "The White Goddess" in which he constructs the mytho-poetic roots of European literature. And there's also Julian Jaynes "The Bicameral Mind", still pretty controversial, and I haven't actually read it all yet (it's style and structure are highly unusual), but someone close to me regards this book highly.

All of this is more relevant than some people think, not only as a way of explaining how we get into situations such as the one in which we currently find ourselves, but also as a way of approaching questions having to do with the internet and how memes evolve here. For example: What is going on in the blogosphere and what does it mean?
............................................

I'm a bit of a poetry buff, so thank you very much, Annces, for Mesomedes!

:hi:

[Annces]

83. Right - I think there are layers

of consciousness and "places" where other spirits live. We are living in a technological age, but that does not mean there are not other things happening, that most of us are not able to see or perceive. Persons such as Rabbis can converse with heaven and some people know about places such as Hades from other world contacts.

[patrice]

95. I think we are thinking about similar things here.

I think those things have very concrete foundations and there are relationships between the levels of those concrete foundations, and, hence, also between what they produce, i.e. the emergent properties of the concrete phenomena, sometimes referred to as "memes", but you can also think in terms of metaphors, or "value statements", or works of art, or . . . .

I think the problems associated with identifying the validity of any given emergent property of any given foundation, or sets of foundations, are being defined as we speak. It's called information science and the internet is its frontier.

[Deep13]

65. Me? No, I don't.

There is no afterlife. Consciousness is a product of biological processes. They cease when the biology ceases. Sorry but there was no heavan for Mr. Rogers or other good people to go to and Hitler pretty much got away with it. The universe does not conform to our subjective morals.

[DrunkenMaster]

87. And the Hubble Telescope Just Snapped

a photo of the pearly gates...

My God, this truly is the Planet of the Apes.

[dysfunctional press]

104. i don't believe in an after-life.

that's a concept for weak-minded dreamers.

[randycrow]

44. The Earthly define the Earthly

the spiritual define the spiritual.

[patrice]

51. ?

Are you pointing to the circularity of all language?

Relativity?

?

[patrice]

78. Could this be a false dichotomy? n/t

[Solly Mack]

46. That's nice. Hell have cable and internet?

Cause I'll need to stay connected.

[sshan2525]

47. Well there you go.....

Santa, the Easter Bunny, Honest Republicans....now I can believe in them too!

[endarkenment]

48. Philosoraptor: welcome back!

Here is what I think: why do christians worship this nasty god?

[ToeBot]

50. And religion was invented by rich people...

so the poor wouldn't steal all their cool stuff. Next!

[JNelson6563]

106. That reminds me of a funny thing

I've got a younger brother who has always walked a fine line between the light and the dark sides of life. When I was on my intellectual quest regarding religion I discussed the whole notion of atheism with him. He listened for a while and he says "If there's no hell I'm going to be pissed!"

Years later I still find this to be very witty though I believe he meant it. :-)

Julie

[pink-o]

54. As Bill O'Reilly's worst nightmare

...Y'know...one of those San Francisco ethnically Jewish yet Secular Progressive types...Fundies have told me for years that I'm on the fastrack to Hell and Damnation.

All I can say is that watching those close-sphincter evangelicals with their disgusting bland, greasy food and hideous whiter-than-white music, I'm gettin' on that train to Hades with no qualms. Obviously the Par-tay and the cool people are all gonna be in the fiery lake with me! I'd rather go there than spend 30 seconds in a Heaven created by these rapturous, ignorant morans!

And yeah...if Pope Rat thinks for one minute his sanctimonious lip-service is gonna make up for his Nazi past in the eyes of his God, he's gonna have a big surprise in the next decade!

[Deep13]

68. "I'm gettin' on that train to Hades with no qualms. "

Will you save my wife and I a couple of seats?

[pink-o]

119. Oh, Yeah!

...all us happy sinners let's git onboard!

[lesab]

56. actually....

I am Catholic and at my church we attended classes about how evolution is real and does not contradict the Adam and Eve story. Science and religion only compete when they don't look at things logically. My church fully acknowledges science and it's teaching.

[patrice]

64. Science is essentially agnostic.

Not atheistic.

Many people on both sides of the science vs. religion argument miss this point.

[Deep13]

69. They intentionally miss the point to avoid the social ramifications.

Science is fundamentally atheistic, though this is easily disguised by the gaps in scientific knowledge.

[patrice]

82. Let me put a finer point on it.

Rational empiricism is fundamentally agnostic, not atheistic.

The word "Science" has come to mean all kinds of things, depending upon the individual's agenda.

I was alluding to the original roots of "Science" in Greek rational empiricism, which claims no knowledge of that which is not experienced. If there is no knowledge of something, it is not possible to say whether it "exists" or not. There are also issues having to do with the nature of proof that do not allow Science to "proove a negative". Therefore, Science, in it's Classic sense, has nothing to say one way or the other about the conventional definition of whatever "God" is. Or at least nothing beyond, "There is no experience of God, ergo there may not be a God." This kind of statement is usally bastardized into "There is no God."

[Deep13]

92. Whatever the linguistic origins of the word...

...modern science has pushed the unknowns that were once filled with divine explanation and especially those unknowns concerning the development of life so far into a corner that there is simply no room for God. While there is no litmus test to prove it instantly, the circumstantial case against any sort of god is conclusive. In particular the suggestion of God as creator of the universe explains nothing since anything complex enough to create a universe requires an even bigger explanation for His own origin. Religious apologists are left with two choices: define god in such an abstract manner that it becomes meaningless or refuse to consider the evidence.

[patrice]

96. Okay . . .

I have to go do something. I will return to this.

In regards to "... simply no room for God." I propose that is because of a common flaw in understanding what Science is and how it functions and to that end, may I ask you to comment please on "the nature of proof"?

Thanks!

Later . . .

[Deep13]

100. Also a bit pressed for time.

Suffice it to say that proof depends on subjecting ideas to tests that could, in principle, disprove the idea. The theory develops from the evidence, not the other way around.

[YOY]

57. Catholics believe in evolution FYI

Don't confuse one set of fundies for Bennie's return to Dark Ages values.

[Deep13]

63. They do not, however, believe in natural selection.

If they fully understand it, they would know that there is no way that God can have anything to do with it.

[YOY]

67. Both were taught to me in Catholic school (Franciscan to be specific)

Neither was debated as anything more than solid scientific theory (and Creation theory is not 'theory' at all as it has no way to prove its hypothesizes.)

The Biology teacher even asked if anyone did not want to be present for the lesson due to personal objections. Everyone laughed at the thought. That was 1992.

Religion class was open for debate on many things and evolution & natural selection was not. Often sacraments were debated as well as the nature of sin and whatnot. Literal interpretation is not a Catholic hallmark. One thing I'm thankful for. Then again, if it was literal interpretation it would have pushed me to agnosticism even sooner...

Incedently, although the Pope is considered 'God's Servant/Messenger/Representative' nobody ever denies that he is perfectly human and capable of mistakes (and therein implied that he can say some stupid shit.)

[porphyrian]

58. Well, if a self-declared speaker-for-God says so, it must be true.

:eyes:

[Cameron27]

62. oops wrong place

[nolabels]

66. With * in office anything is possible

:crazy:

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

70. The Tooth Fairy is real too.

And he demands to be retitled "Tooth Recycling Technician".

[Deep13]

71. Also, pope confirms hell is for children.

:evilgrin:

[Beelzebud]

72. Head Mythmaker believes his own myths. Shocking...

[leftofthedial]

75. religious insanity

on parade

There is a hell, though . . . American under the fascists.

[patrice]

84. Interesting that those of us with a rationalistic orientation and those

of us with an interest in what I like to think of as "emergent properties" are in agreement on this point: Hell is here.

[geardaddy]

77. That's because he's on a first name basis with

the devil (*)

[MGD]

79. Tithes must be decreasing. Time to bust out some serious spiritual terorrism.

[drmom]

81. Okay, lets see if I got this right...

The Catholics think that a violent, mass murderer just has to say "sorry", and then he goes to heaven along with people who lived good, peaceful lives?

Why would anyone want to believe this?

And on a tangent...what's to stop a person from being a violent mass murderer when they know that all they have to do is apologize to avoid eternal damnation? Shouldn’t the moral/religious consequences be greater than the earthly, man-man consequences?

[patrice]

88. All Catholics know apologies are BS unless the transgressor

amends his/her behavior.

It is a mis-characterization of the Sacrament of Confession, which used to be called Pennance, to say all you have to do is say you're sorry.

I'm a fallen Catholic; the nuns used to tell us that it is another sin, Sacrilege, to go to Confession and not try to change the things that you confess to.

[drmom]

93. Thanks for the reply, but a question...

How does one amend murder? Is it just a matter of not doing it again, and feeling remorseful?

[patrice]

97. I would propose total self abnegation in total service to the absolutely

lowest, most abused amongst us - forever.

But it isn't up to me, so what I have to do is learn how to live with the truth, inspite of what appears to be a whole lot of contradiction against truth that's going on (things such as, I think I saw somewhere recently that the murderer-in-chief and his family have bought big real estate somewhere in South America and are fully capable of leaving the U.S. after having contributed materially to its destruction, and living down there in their own private "heaven").

[Cha]

85. And he knows because..?

[Deep13]

94. see post #7

:evilgrin:

[Cha]

99. Pope is making

shit up.

[Blackhatjack]

90. This is really bad news for Bush and his corrupt gang.... n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

98. With all that is going on in the world, how can you not believe in hell?

We have hell right here on earth.

Ever seen the movie _Darwin's Nightmare?_

How about any of the Iraq documentaries?

Don't tell me hell doesn't exist. The whole point of Christianity
was to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven on earth. By implication
that means that hell also exists on earth, which can be proven by
asking for a definition of hell. Does anything in common portrayal
of hell exist which cannot be concieved of by man as occuring in
the physical universe?

I agree with Pope Gregory on the matter of hell.

(Pope John Paul II also disagreed with the Nazi, Benedict,
who will presumably go to hell for serving in the Hitler Youth
according to his own logic.)

[Orsino]

101. Ah. One of those pro-torture popes.

The ultimate "because I said so."

[ComerPerro]

102. and pretty soon he is gonna announce the pricing necessary to aviod hell

[saltpoint]

103. Just one observation:

“Christ believed in hell. I do not believe that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment.”

--Bertrand Russell

I don't think Russell was the sort who backed down from a fight, and he knew that this quotation would be provocative.

The Pope's reiteration of the reality of Hell reminds me of the notion that everlasting punishment is wildly sick. I'm not stopping anyone from believing Hell is an actual place, but the idea of eternal damnation is, IMO, cruel and psychotic.

[JNelson6563]

105. It's counter to an "all loving God" isn't it?

Though I have to admit, during my Catholic school years I must've had some extremely rare nuns. They were really nice and they taught that "hell" was merely a place where God was absent. As a child I pictured a dark, sad, lonely place, not the fiery torment my Protestant friends learned about or what this current Pope is preaching.

If those were not such pleasant years and the nuns so kind and enlightened I may have arrived at atheism sooner. Damn them. haha

Julie

[saltpoint]

112. What great nuns. I'm glad you encountered them instead of the

Jim Dobson-type of hellfire Protestant sort of religionist.

If the Catholic Church stood in serious need of reformation at the time of Luther, Luther failed to replace it with something better.

And the modern-day versions of hyper-Protestantism are just too much for me. Pat Robertson. Jerry Falwell. Dobson -- the whole yucky crew of 'em. Too bad there isn't a real Hell to send these guys to!

This Pope is no dummy, yet he seems to have invoked a Medieval idea here to scare the herd. On Catholics, give me St. Francis over most Popes any day of the week.

[JNelson6563]

113. Beating the drums of fear

seems to be the current trend among world "leaders". How's that go again...? "It's better to be feared than loved if one cannot be both"...something like that. Good ol' Machiavelli. Timeless wisdom. ;-)

Cheers,
Julie

[saltpoint]

117. And you had a great point with the idea of a loving God -- if that is

the preferred version --

"Mercy" doesn't seem to fit in just right with "eternal hellfire."

I wouldn't seat the two next to each other at a dinner party.

[Pathwalker]

107. Of course there is a Hell, and it's in MICHIGAN.

I know because I was there on 6/6/06, and the party was wild!!! :evilgrin:

[YOY]

118. There's another in Norway

Two HELLS! Crazy talk!

[SallyMander]

108. I'm a grad student teaching Evolution this quarter

On our first day survey of the class, one of the questions asked the students' current understanding/knowledge of evolutionary theory. One replied "heresy, blasphemy".

Could be a long quarter...


Edited to add: I realized the Catholic church accepts evolution... guess i just wanted to vent. ;-)

[Godot_is_here]

109. it'd be news if the pope announced that hell wasn't real.

hell is part of the belief system of catholicism, and as such, it only makes sense that the pope announces that it is indeed real.

[Dorian Gray]

110. To be fair..

I don't believe the Catholic Church currently denies the evolutionary process.

[Zenlitened]

111. It's been a looooong time since I read the Christian bible, but...

... I seem to remember that "eternal" referred to the flame, not to the suffering. At least where ordinary humans are concerned.

Maybe Lucifer and his pals would sit in the smoker forever, but the run-of-the-mill lost souls would just be snuffed, no? Thus the whole "like a moth in a candle flame" angle...

:shrug:

[liberalEd]

115. ... speaking in "straightforward" language "like a parish priest".

In other words, the pope is a senile old fart and the Vatican has to make excuses for him.

[NightWatcher]

116. I was married, I believe him

but I'm in heaven now...alone with dirty dishes in the sink and a beer for dinner last night