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Premature Impeachment: A play with 3 endings.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:32 PM
Original message
Premature Impeachment: A play with 3 endings.
Which ending is most believable?


Congress: Bush lied to start the Iraq war and spied on Americans without a warrant

People: I don't care about that I want low gas prices and I want my home value to increase again*.

Congress: Should we impeach him?

People: No. I want low gas prices and I want my home value to increase again.

Congress: OK, we're going to impeach him.

People: Hey, but that's not....

Congress: Here are the charges. Bush lied abou....

Fox News: We interrupt to bring you a report on the impeachment proceedings. It seems Congress has made their case today. As it turns out, Bush lied us into a war and spied on Americans without a warrant. Aliens have zapped our brains and so now we really do report and leave it to you to decide.

People: Oh my god! Why didn't they tell me this before. I'm thankful for the forward looking congress protecting my interests when I was naively concerned with mundane topics like gas costs and housing values.



Or does this seem more likely



Congress: OK, we're going to impeach him.

People: Hey, but that's not....

Congress: Here are the charges. Bush lied abou....

Fox News: We interrupt to tell you what to think about this: Oh Bullshit! How many time to we have to listen to this blather? Bush lied about the war? PROVE IT! Wahhhhh! Bush spied on Americans! Wahhhh! Wahhhhh! Did the American people ask for this? NO! They asked for low gas prices and better housing market? And what do they get? Some impeachment witch hunt. Is THAT what you wanted?

People: Wait wait wait. Bush lied us into a war and he's spying on us? Normally I believe everything on Fox News but now I'm strangely compelled to ignore the spin and concentrate on the facts. Thank god congress ignored my wishes and proceeded to impeach this dangerous and untrustworthy man.



Or this:



Congress: Here are the charges. Bush lied abou....

Fox News: We interrupt to tell you what to think about this: Oh Bullshit! How many time to we have to listen to this blather? Bush lied about the war! PROVE IT! Wahhhhh! Bush spied on Americans! Wahhhh! Wahhhhh! Did the American people ask for this? NO! They asked for low gas prices and better housing market? And what do they get? Some impeachment witch hunt. Is THAT what you wanted?

People: fucking congress.



How do you think a premature impeachment will play out?

* Most polls last year show only minority support for impeachment: http://pollingreport.com/bush.htm
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've never heard of a premature impeachment.
Edited on Wed Mar-28-07 02:35 PM by mmonk
Can you give me a definition or link?
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. no n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Then, if you want informed discourse on this thread, it's up to you
to define it. :shrug:
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Informed discourse is not bickering over the definition common words...
... So what did you want to talk about again? Oh yeah, get a dictionary.

Meanwhile, which of those three endings sound most likely to you?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I wanted to make sure I understood what you meant.
And since you can't be bothered to enlighten me, we seem to have nothing to discuss.
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. You stopped at the first thing you could question to avoid the rest of the post...
.... I don't mind is you have nothing to say.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Well, no. Okay, let's try this.
On the page you link to, it's true that only about 30% say they support impeachment based on what they have heard or read. The sample size was about 1K.

But, in another poll on that page, over 70% say they wish Bush's term were already over. Interesting, isn't it? Other polls reflect similar sentiments, i.e, Bush has politicized government too much, he won't get anything done and so forth. People are ready to lose George Bush.

The Congressional Democratic leadership seems to be risk adverse. They will not impeach unless their base forces them to do it.


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for your concern.
Edited on Wed Mar-28-07 02:39 PM by ClassWarrior
Where did you get your crystal ball? I'm sorry, but my support for IMPEACHMENT has nothing to do with predicting the hoary future, and has EVERYTHING to do with doing the right thing right now.

NGU.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. How can impeachment be "premature" if these felons
were negligent on 9/11? If they KNEW the levees were breached and warned NO ONE? If they lied us into a war four YEARS ago?

Premature, my lovely remote.

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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. The right thing is removal from office - which requires planning and hard work.
If you're not willing to look ahead and plan then you are just not willing to put in the work that protecting the constitution requires.

Your opponents, those that want to gut the constitution, are planning, are looking ahead and are considering public reaction. Consequently they would beat us, if your view (just impeach already) were the dominant view in Congress.

> Where did you get your crystal ball?

If I had a crystal ball, wouldn't my play just have one ending?
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The right thing is taking a stand against evil...
Duh, we want to take the most effective stand possible, but sometimes perfect is the enemy of good.

Guess you better get a crystal ball then, if you're shooting for perfect.

:shrug:

NGU.


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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. A tempermental Impeachment without planning for removal is conspiring with evil....
You want to stop Bush or you want to play games?

I'm not shooting for ineffective feel good solutions.

I can explain how removal from office can stop Bush.

Can you explain how an acquittal will stop him? Acquittal is the result if you can't be bothered to plan.
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CrownPrinceBandar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. At what point do "high crimes and misdemeanors" become impeachable?....
What is the current political threshold that merits impeachment? Illegal war? Nope. Fixed elections? Nope. Dropping the ball on a major natural disaster? Bzzzt! At what point does it become acceptable to hold the highest office in the land responsible for the misdeeds and/or incompetence of its own administration?
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GOTV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Each person decides that for himself - no hard line has ever been defined. n/t
I'd say Bush has passed that line but I'm just one guy. Until we get critical mass an impeachment now will fail to remove him.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Here is the "apitamy" of the misunderstanding of the process and purpose of impeachment

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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-28-07 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Tick, tick, tick---reality check, the clock is running out.
Is there a groundswell of support growing in Congress for impeachment?

If the House does vote to impeach, where are the 17 or more votes in the Senate going to come from that would be needed to convict?

If (more likely when) the Senate fails to convict Bush on the impeachment charges will everybody be able to stomach how Bush will claim to be exonerated? Or will the many here who demand impeachment be satisfied with impeachment and not conviction as Bush serves out his term?

Lastly, impeachment takes time. It's not like the House would vote articles of impeachment this week and then the Senate would vote next week. If it started right now, and it isn't, it would probably be most of a year before there was even a vote in the Senate. Time is running out.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Whenever someone is put on trial,
the case is made in the process. Are you saying no one that doesn't support impeachment now would be likely to change their position once the evidence becomes public?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. The threat of impeachment needs to be leveraged against BushCo.
At minimum, it could slow down the coming war.

And, the Thuggery would most likely never allow impeachment to go forward. They would force him to step down first.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
23. Impeachment -- simple, swift, and certain. . .
Edited on Sat Mar-31-07 10:14 AM by pat_k
There is no coverup to uncover. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=539603&mesg_id=539603">Like squatters, Bush and Cheney are laying claim to unconstitutional power through openly hostile possession. (With the emphasis on "open.")

Articles of impeachment could be introduced the day they return from recess. They could make the case in a week or two of impeachment hearings. They could vote out articles of impeachment againts Bush and Cheney on, or before, Mothers day (a perfect gift to our gold star mothers).

GQ, March 2007
The People v. Richard Cheney
Wil S. Hylton

When the Founding Fathers crafted the U.S. Constitution, they wanted to be sure that the president, vice president, and other ranking officials could be evicted more easily than the British monarchy. To ensure that the process would be swift and certain, they made it simple: Only two conditions must be met. First, a majority of the House of Representatives must agree on a set of charges; then, two-thirds of the Senate must agree to convict. After that, there is no legal wrangling, no appeal to a higher authority, no reversal on technical grounds. There is not even a limit on what the charges may be. As the Constitution describes it, the cause may be “treason, bribery, and other high crimes and misdemeanors,” but even these were left deliberately vague; as Gerald Ford once pointed out while still serving in the House of Representatives, the only real definition of an “impeachable offense” is “whatever a majority of the House of Representatives considers it to be at a given moment in history.”

http://men.style.com/gq/features/full?id=content_5402">More. . .



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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. The REAL choice: to be War Criminal nation that spies on it's own citizens. .
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 11:30 AM by pat_k
We, the men and women you elected to serve as your voice to the House and Senate. . .
. . .choose to allow the USA to be a War Criminal nation that spies on it's own citizens because we must focus on passing our 100 hours agenda (which won't become law unless "the decider" deigns to allow it).

We choose to remain a nation of torturers so that we can make empty and impotent gestures that cannot force Bush and Cheney to do anything they don't want to do. We choose this for you, without asking, because we "know" it is what you want.

We choose to allow Bush to do as he pleases with our troops in Iraq while we demonstrate how weak we truly are because we refuse to take up the ONLY "lethal" weapon in our Congressional arsenal.

We are minimizing the reality of our national crisis and doing our their damdest to suppress any calls for impeachment by convincing you it can't, won't, or shouldn't happen. We are doing this for you, to save you the headacke of confronting the truth (and, though we don't realize it, many of us just don't want to be glared by our "friends" at Washington cocktail parties.
As Bill Bradley points out in his new book, the American people CAN "handle the truth." In fact, Americans are desperate for genuine passion and truth from our leaders. They've had it with political gamesmanship and euphemism. They've had it with uninspiring double-speak. They've had it with impotent gestures that aim to give convey "perception" of "action" (which the American people are already seeing through, as demonstrated by the dwindling approval of the new Congress.

It is long past time for the constitutional officers we empowered to defend us against such blatant, willful attacks on our Constitution to tell us the truth. When Members of Congress exchange the euphemism of "lied us into war" for the stark and horrible truth, I seriously doubt that a majority will reject that truth. Americans will reject that truth.

Real Crisis; Real Choices

Bush and Cheney are advancing a relentless campaign to turn the American presidency into an Un-American and Unconstitutional unitary authoritarian executive with unbounded power. Like squatters, they are laying claim to unconstitutional power through openly hostile possession. They are trespassing in plain sight. That is their intent.

They are saying:
We claim Unconstitutional and Un-American unitary authoritarian executive power to violate any Federal law at will to 'protect the nation.' International law doesn't apply to our actions because we say it doesn't. To prove these claims:
  • Here we are, committing War Crimes under U.S. Code (Title 18 section 2441) and international law. If we follow the Geneva conventions, we can't "protect the nation" so we aren't following them.

  • Here we are, violating FISA (Title 50, Section 1805). If we get warrants from the FISA courts, we can't "protect the nation" so we aren't getting warrants.

  • He we are, nullifying McCain's anti-torture amendment with a signing statement. (An amendment that passed the Senate 90-9) . We need to torture to "protect the nation."

  • He we are nullifying a few hundred other provisions with signing statements. We are nullifying these particular provisions, but of course, we claim unitary authoritarian power to violate any law, whether previously nullified by signing statement or not.

and so on
The OP cites the weakest of the many cases for impeachment. It is almost the only case for which they have a defense (we believed our own lies). It is a ridiculous defense, but it is a defense that they DON"T have for their many other trespasses on our Constitution that they proudly and publicly declare.

When squatters move in, it is the property owner's responsibility to commence eviction proceedings. If the property owner fails to attempt to evict for long enough, squatters can claim title, and Poof! -- the property owner isn't the property owner anymore.

We the People "own" the nation. We delegated the power and the duty to evict (impeach) officials who trespass to our representatives in the House and Senate.

Surrendering your property to squatters without a fight is insanity, but that insanity doesn't compare to the magnitude of the insanity of surrendering a nation without a fight. But that is precisely what Members of Congress are doing when they say that the immediate impeachment of Bush and Cheney can't, won't, or shouldn't happen.

The Biggest Barrier to impeachment. . .

. . .is not the fascist opposition, it is those within our own ranks who echo the excuses and irrational rationalizations for inaction that emanate from the beltway establishment. To make impeachment a reality, we must contradict those rationalizations whenever we can.

Regarding the poll cited in the OP

August 2006 is not the "latest" poll.

Despite relentless efforts to boost opposition and suppress support for impeachment, just before the election a Newsweek poll found that 51% wanted impeachment to be a priority in the new Congress, while only 44% said it should not be done.1 In a more recent Newsweek poll, 58% the public say they want the Bush presidency over now.2 People who want the Bush presidency over are unlikely to object when Democrats seek to end it by impeaching Bush and Cheney.

Democrats were not elected to enact their proposals. . .

. . . (even if they could under rule by signing statement).
Above all, they were elected to oppose Bush. Post-election polling found that "Anti-Bush. Anti-Republican" reasons topped the list of "major reasons," while "Pro-Democratic" reasons ranked at the bottom.3

A simple choice: Duty or Dereliction

When the Constitution is under attack, they are sworn to defend. Their oath is an oath to fight -- to support and defend; not an oath to win. We take oaths for a reason to do the tough stuff for a reason. So that when the time comes, we act. No excuses. No hesitation.

The polls, the baseless claims that impeachment is political poison; the rationalizations -- none of it matters. Outcome expectations are irrelevant. When principle demands action, you choose to duty or dereliction.

======================
  1. http://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html">Priorities for a Democratic Congress, Newsweek Poll, 10/21/06)

  2. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2752103&mesg_id=2753090">58% of Americans want his Presidency over now

  3. http://january6th.org/reasons-for-success.pdf">Reasons for Democrats success

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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. None of them. Your plays are fiction.
And, assuming your corporate media poll data isn't entirely cooked and worthless, which most of it is, it's all six months old or older and no longer relevant.
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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Spot on. More recent polls from Newsweek. . .
Edited on Fri Mar-30-07 11:37 AM by pat_k
Despite relentless efforts to boost opposition and suppress support for impeachment, just before the election a Newsweek poll found that 51% wanted impeachment to be a priority in the new Congress, while only 44% said it should not be done.1 In a more recent Newsweek poll, 58% the public say they want the Bush presidency over now.2 People who want the Bush presidency over are unlikely to object when Democrats seek to end it by impeaching Bush and Cheney.

Further, Democrats were not elected to enact their proposals (even if they could under rule by signing statement). Above all, they were elected to oppose Bush. Post-election polling found that "Anti-Bush. Anti-Republican" reasons topped the list of "major reasons," while "Pro-Democratic" reasons ranked at the bottom.3
======================
  1. http://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html">Priorities for a Democratic Congress

  2. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2752103&mesg_id=2753090">58% of Americans want his Presidency over now

  3. http://january6th.org/reasons-for-success.pdf">Reasons for Democrats success
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-30-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Ooo, the facts with footnotes. Denial busters. Thanks. - n/t
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-31-07 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. i'll kick dat
:kick:
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