Some people don't realize how insulting and degrading they are

[RB TexLa]

Idiot on local radio said "at least the Iranians are talking about letting the female go." So if the Iranians thought a black sailer was worthless to them, people would be saying "at least they are talking about letting the black go?"

[ShortnFiery]

1. It's always a big tell when they use the word "female" instead of "woman."

Big red flag: Patriarchal jerk! ;) :hi:

[lonestarnot]

3. That is the way the military refers to women.

[RB TexLa]

4. They should just refer to them as "soldiers" and "sailors"

[lonestarnot]

6. The "should" many things but they don't.

[ShortnFiery]

15. Speak for yourself, many active duty avoid the term when possible.

What's all this "us" vs "them" stuff?

IMO, we're beginning to communicate like right wingers. :wow:

That's NOT good.

[lonestarnot]

61. Not us versus them. Just your take. As you say. Speak for yourself shorty.

I was obviously refering to the military pukes. And in case you don't know what a puke is, it is an "enlisted" an I was one.

[Kelly Rupert]

19. So how are you to refer to a female soldier?

I mean, they have agreed to let the female soldier leave. How can you say that without referencing gender?

[ShortnFiery]

32. I say Woman Soldier albeit some grammarians go nuts, it sounds more respectful.

Dammit, it's my communication and after four years in the Active Duty Army, I despise the word "female." ;) :hi:

[Kelly Rupert]

36. From my experience, that will irritate more than it will soothe.

People don't like nouns used as adjectives. "Jew lawyer" sounds worse than "Jewish lawyer." "Democratic agenda" sounds better than "Democrat agenda." And really, to most people, "Female soldier" sounds better than "Woman soldier." With the latter, you're giving her status as woman equal status with her status as a soldier--a "courtesy" that makes female soldiers a marked case.

You find the word "female" offensive in and of itself, it seems, and I understand that. From everything I know, most people do not agree.

[ShortnFiery]

39. Oh stop! It only irritates, IMO, unyielding grammarians. Most people don't give a damn ...

if they understand "your meaning." (I also totally overdo quotation marks - how obscene in the abuse ... just gauche!)

Arrest me now Nazi Grammarians - lest I'm sure to sin again! :hi:

[Kelly Rupert]

41. Heh, I'm not a grammarian; they can burn in hell.

I'm a linguist. We describe what is, not prescribe what ought be.

Split your infinitives all you want, and end sentences with prepositions. Use double and triple negatives. That's the way English has been spoken for centuries.

[ShortnFiery]

47. Linguist, one each? If you understand my meaning, life is good!

Wee R dun hear. :P <tease> ;)

[Kelly Rupert]

48. That's pretty much the way we do it.

If you intended to say it, and I understood it, and it doesn't fit in the rules--well, then the rules are wrong ;)

[ShortnFiery]

49. No, it only means that some of us don't strictly follow the rules.

Perhaps language rules will evolve to encompass this change. Stranger things have happened. :shrug:

[Kelly Rupert]

50. Human speech is incredibly ordered. There is not a person

who speaks without following stringent grammatical rules.

What you're referring to is not linguistics, but grammar. Grammar is the study of the rules of the prestige (or "standard") form of a language, and those rules indeed change--three hundred years ago, you would have to say "my car is repairing" instead of "my car is being repaired" to not be scoffed at. In Shakespeare's time, if you rhymed "meat" with "beet" instead of "hate," you sounded uneducated.

Linguistics is the study of language as she is spoken. The Queen of England and a ghetto youth speak equally ordered, equally complex, equally rule-bound language. And if I come across anything that breaks a rule, then the rule is inadequate.

[ShortnFiery]

52. Then I'm out of order when using "Woman" instead of "Female" ...

I plead "GUILTY" and I will continue to practice this unordered behavior.

The Queen of England and Ghetto Children are much more linguistically ORDERED people than me.

I can live with the above disappointment without the loss of sleep.

Now can we move onto page 40? :hi:

[Kelly Rupert]

53. Oh, no, your behavior is perfectly ordered.

It's just different from most people's, and there's no need to take offense when none is offered.

[ShortnFiery]

54. Then I am admittedly humbled. Please accept my sincere gratitude ...

for your patience in making me smart.

I can be dense when seemingly "on a mission." :blush:

I've had some very BAD experiences to draw upon in my Military Service with regard to sexism and each time I hear "female" it takes me back. Therefore, I'm not the most objective person on this issue.

Again, thank you for being so thoughtful by fully explaining these topics to me. :applause: :hi:

[Breeze54]

51. How'z about: Ldg Seaman Faye Turney?

A British servicewoman held captive by Iran will be released "very soon", according to the Iranian foreign minister.

""The woman soldier is free either today or tomorrow," Manouchehr Mottaki told Turkish television channel CNN-Turk.""

Leading Seaman Faye Turney
http://www.telegraph.co.uk.nyud.net:8090/news/graphics/2007/03/28/faye.jpg http://images.theglobeandmail.com.nyud.net:8090/archives/RTGAM/images/20070329/wiran29/0329ukiran.jpg

[ShortnFiery]

11. I know that. I served and my husband is retired military.

Some fellow soldiers within the Army seemingly used the word "female" with an added inflection one would spew out a swear word. :grr:

Throughout my adult life, I personally avoid using the term "female" whenever possible.

It's not a strict requirement or written regulation. Albeit like the speed of the tectonic plates, little by little we can change the military. After all "women" were not integrated into the regular military until the mid 1970s. Baby steps. ;)

[ComerPerro]

18. I say female instead of woman sometimes, just as you may say male instead of man

does that make me a patriarchal jerk?

[ShortnFiery]

31. No, but if women are in the group you're around, you'd glean more respect if you

would thoughtfully convert to the word "Woman" whenever you would use "Man" to address the opposite gender.

Males = Females

Boys = Girls

Guys = Gals

Men = Women

[Kelly Rupert]

22. Okay, explain that one.

'Female' is the generally-used adjective form of 'woman.' Are adjectives patriarchalist now?

[bryant69]

2. That might be ignorence rather than an insult

I think. I mean he might genuinely be unaware of why the Iranians are letting the woman go and believe that it is for the reason kidnappers in the west might do the same thing.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[gravity]

7. I think you nailed it

I actually thought they were doing it out of respect when I first heard this, but then I realized that they really do believe that the woman is worthless.

[ShortnFiery]

13. Read up about modern day IRAN. The Persian Culture does NOT view women as worthless.

I regret my bluntness but your "Ugly American" skirt is showing.

Take a little time to STUDY the overall Persian culture instead of stereotyping from the dress codes of their practicing Islamic Religion. It will open your eyes, fellow American.

[gravity]

8. Dupe

[gravity]

dupe

[ShortnFiery]

12. Probably a little bit of both (insultive and ignorant) n/t

Yes, it must be hell to go through life that way. :rofl:

[madinmaryland]

5. Very patronizingm isn't it.

Idiot probably wouldn't care about a black sailor.

:grr:

[peacetalksforall]

Dupe

[peacetalksforall]

9. It does seem that the way it is used female = procreation.

Woman seems to equate with soul, personality, career, human potential.

But, there probably are big differences between languages and the way it gets translated - so a person has to look at who is saying it and assume their intention.

[ShortnFiery]

14. It's a crude term like they used to separate the normals from others.

Like during WWII, they separated the Blacks from the ranks. Women have only been integrated into the regular military for 36 years. :shrug:

[peacetalksforall]

20. Did the right wing radio host say female on his own or did the

Irans say female.

When I said 'they' I referenced the media and commentators in this country as well as the military.

I am not an expert on Iran.

So I covered myself by saying that if it was a translation there could be a problem because of having to translate.

I'm talking about the subtle difference between the two words as I perceive it.

I am for the innocents of Iran and am against the way the leaders we pay are creating intense hate for Iranians for the benefit of corporations. I feel lucky to have met some Iranians in my lifetime. I feel they deserve to live and that their infrastructure should not be bombed to hell for corporations. This country must always create an enemy for the benefit of corporations.

If you wish to explain how you interpreted what I said - I'd be glad to reply more specifically.

[Kelly Rupert]

27. Okay, that's just wrong.

No. That is incorrect. Wrong. I cannot say "no" enough. I simply cannot. Jesus.

Okay, I'm a grad student in linguistics. I've taken more sociolinguistics courses than anyone should ever be put through. And please, please, please take my word on this: there is no pejorative sense to the word 'female.'

The pejoration you have experienced likely came from an intentional misuse of adjectives. Using the wrong word class often is intended as an insult.

For instance, "woman doctor" is insulting, while "female doctor" is not. Woman is a noun and female is an adjective, and saying "woman doctor" implies that she exists as a half-woman, half-doctor. Saying "female doctor" suggests that she is wholly a doctor, and wholly female.

Now, using "female" as a noun can be belittling too, depending on context. But it isn't a charged word. And adjectives are often left hanging, with no ill intent--for instance, saying "the elderly" is not harmful. It's simply omitting the understood word "people." But "female" is almost never a charged word, and really, the same goes for "woman."

[peacetalksforall]

34. I can see what you mean in terms of noun and adjective, however

I don't know that one is insulting and the other is not.

I can also see that few would say "man doctor".

If it's difficult to use "man doctor" we shouldn't use "woman doctor".

In other contexts, woman is more human and female is more anatomical, imo.

If someone says "I just saw this amazing woman" vs "I just saw this amazing female"

- I can start projecting what they are going to describe.

[Kelly Rupert]

40. Indeed few would say "man doctor,"

and few ought say "woman doctor." Few would say "man soldier," and so few would say "woman soldier." It's marking.

As for the second part, well, you have a point. By saying 'woman,' you're saying something like, "I saw this amazing person {who is female.}" By saying 'female,' you're saying something like, "I saw this amazing female {person,}" in which the femininity is emphasized to the detriment of the humanity.

[ShortnFiery]

35. no pejorative sense to the word "female." - Let me guess? You have never been in the Army. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

37. I have never been in the army, no.

I can only speak for general society.

[peacetalksforall]

10. Dupe

[Alexander]

16. Some people manage to make the word "woman" sound degrading.

Like when my roommate says things like "Oh yeah, my friend is hanging out with his woman." To me, that sounds like a caveman.

Sexist to the core, and he admits it, yet he does nothing about it.

Then again, my roommate is also from backwoods Montana, and tends to get very awkward around minorities of almost any kind.

I usually go for the word "lady" as it conveys respect and politeness that other words do not.

[frankenforpres]

23. very ironic post n/t

[VelmaD]

25. you don know

that there are a lot of women who don't like the term "lady"...there's a lot of societal baggage and expectations that come with that word.

[Kelly Rupert]

30. Gotta know how to treat a lady

:eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

33. Yes, after all, unlike myself you didn't get your a** grabbed when walking though a crowded O-Club

at seemingly every damn opportunity. Yeah, it's a small subject to you but you are not a woman so it doesn't hit home. :shrug:

[Kelly Rupert]

43. That was sarcastic. I thought the emoticon gave it away.

Obviously "lady" is no better.

[ShortnFiery]

46. Point taken. And I agree - Often you have to consider both the person and the

situation. When a 70 year old man calls me a young lady, I'll have to admit to being somewhat charmed. (dammit!) :blush:

There is no "hard and fast rule" ... on that I can agree. :hi:

[Beelzebud]

17. I honestly think some would prefer we get rid of freedom of speech...

If this is something to get upset about then I guess we've come a long way in 50 years.

[ShortnFiery]

26. Oh, I love freedom of speech because it tells me much about the character

of the person making the statement. Anyone who refers to a woman as a "female" puts up a red flag of a potential bigot. Now I don't finalize my judgment based solely on that one data point, but it puts me on guard to be cautious when interacting with this person.

Even my retired Marine Corps husband doesn't call women "females." Since Women Marines have NOT EVER been fully integrated within the Corps, you'd think that would be a tough habit to break, but it's not so tough ... IMO, if you are not a bigot. ;)

[VelmaD]

28. Amen

Free speech is great. It lets you know who the idiots are AND it means you can tell them exactly what you think of them :evilgrin:

[NashVegas]

21. When Were Black Males Ever a Target of Chivalry?

Some things, we take a while to let go of.

[VelmaD]

24. I like the way you put that...

"target" of chivalry. While common courtesy and good manners are both wonderful things...chivalry and the gender roles that went with it...was not.

[NashVegas]

38. Ya Know, Since I've Become a Woman of a Certain Age

There are some things that just aren't worth getting into an uproar about.

Wanna buy me dinner? Okay. Hold the door? Not a problem.

OTOH, in cases like this, it indeed seems antagonistic.

[ShortnFiery]

44. I'm probably older than you (pushing the big 50) but I'll be damned if I'll go back.

But that's probably because I've always worked in professions where I had to compete with mostly men.

Sure, if a man holds a door open, I politely say "thank you."

But there are limits. Heck, some men think if you smile at them, you want their body. You have to be careful with this "lady gig." :shrug:

[ShortnFiery]

29. I think it's long past time to EMERGE from the Middle Ages.

:eyes:

[NashVegas]

42. I Think We Have

To my knowledge, the rules of courtship & chivalry were established for the purpose of getting laid.

Most guys don't need to work that hard, anymore.

[ShortnFiery]

45. Speak for your buddies concubines ONLY. Many professional women who respect themselves

are FAR from easy. ;)

[RB TexLa]

55. Just to clarify, this post was not about what term the person used to describe the gender of a

sailor. The post is about the fact that their genders should be meaningless.

[Bluedogvoter]

56. Thats insulting and degrading?

Explain to me how you were insulted by that.

[RB TexLa]

57. The gender of the sailors is meaningless

There was no need for a breakdown on the gender of the captured, just as there was no need for a breakdown of their race or their religion.

[Bluedogvoter]

58. He was using it for descriptive purposes.

I just don't see where the offense is at.

I'm Native American, I could care less if I was described as that or Indian.

This is a real head scratcher to me as to why people would be offended. I just don't get it.

[BlooInBloo]

59. Of course they know. Sheesh.

[Annces]

60. I really doubt that the female soldier would want to remain

a hostage, just to maintain her equal status. She is not helping anyone by being an additional hostage. And there is the idea of helping women and children before men, that is still with us.