To any defeatists out there

[knight_of_the_star]

Grow a pair and get back in the firing line.

There have been so many crucial moments not just in US history but in HUMAN history that were decided by a small group of people who in spite of the odds against them stood their ground and refused to just roll over and accept the inevitable. The list is so long it would take all day, but I'll cite a few here.

What if the Greeks, particularly the Spartans and the Thespians hadn't stood at Thermopylae against the overwhelming Persian hordes and then the Athenians at the Straits of Artemesium and Salamis in the Persian War? Democracy would have been strangled in the cradle, never to arise in the form we know and love. The odds were strongly against them, yet they fought anyway because it was the right thing to do and had to be done. They didn't just roll over and let Persia walk all over them, they formed alliances, trained soldiers, built ships, and fought with every ounce of strength they had and WON.

What if the English had just surrendered upon sight of the Spanish Armada. England was virtually alone in opposing Spain in that war, no one would give the English crown the time of day until after that fateful battle, yet Queen Elizabeth and the sailors and captains of the Royal Navy held the line, pounded, and drove off the Invincible Armada, if that had not happened then America as we know it would not have happened.

What if Northern leaders had just given up in the Civil War? What if Lincoln after the failure of the Peninsular Campaign or even the secession to begin with just said, "Oh well we can't to anything to stop them and it would cause too much misery, we'll just let them go?" He and the rest stuck it out and freed the slaves and kept this country in one piece because they didn't just roll over and die.

What if in the Gilded Age in America in the late 1800s the working men and women in the United States just said, "Ah well the power of the corporations is too great, the government is too corrupt, we can't win this one lets just take care of our own and let the world hang?" I can guarantee that the middle class wouldn't have happened and labor rights in the US would be a joke, but they organized, they risked their jobs and careers, they struck, they were even fired upon by federal soldiers and company goons, but they fought it out and they won.

What if the British had surrendered after the Fall of France, having seen the might of Hitler's armies? What if Churchill didn't stand among his fellow Britons and they had just surrendered after the Blitz was in full roar? They could have, it would have been the easy way out, but then we would be MUCH worse off for it, with a victorious Third Reich and a possibly successful Holocaust. Instead of surrendering, he vowed, "We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender." The British people followed his inspiration and thanks to that we in the end beat the Nazis.

What if the workers for Civil Rights in the US had just given up because things were so tough? What if they said, "Ho hum we can't MAKE the South change, so lets just give up." Its a good thing they didn't give up the fight and kept on going.

So I say to those who say, "All hope is lost, there's no point in fighting," You are a bunch of sniveling whining little cowards who do this country as much harm as anyone actively seeking to destroy our great democracy, because you have committed the great crime of standing to one side and doing nothing when you could have, SHOULD have, stood up and said, "NO! This is not right and I will fight this as best as I can!" Even if we should lose this fight for our great democracy, even if the cause is lost, I would much rather be remembered by my descendants and those who follow the example of those who fought as someone who went once more into the breach at every chance they had and fought on even when all hope had faded instead of surrendering, someone who died on their two feet weapon in hand looking their enemy in the eye rather than living on their knees begging for mercy.

It is better to live one day as a lion than one hundred years as a lamb.

Click here to go back to the main forums.

[Forkboy]

1. Did we give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[knight_of_the_star]

2. LOL

I was wondering when that one would get trotted out.

[sasha031]

4. we had Roosevelt then

this is different

[knight_of_the_star]

6. Doesn't mean we can't keep going

We can and should still fight this out, great times call for great leaders and have a tendency to call for such leaders to rise to the forefront. Who knows, we might get a new FDR in this muckup.

[UrbScotty]

28. We have Obama, Richardson, Clark, and ourselves now (nt)

[roamer65]

8. ...and Mr. Blutarsky....zero point zero...

:rofl:

[2008]

33. "Seven years of college down the drain!"

:spray:

[tandot]

18. The Germans bombed Pearl Harbor????????

Boy, I've got to talk to my history teacher. He apparently wasn't aware of that. That idiot told me that Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.

:sarcasm: (just in case it is needed)

[motocicleta]

27. Forkboy was referring to a moving picture called "Animal House". nt

[tandot]

38. Thanks, motocicleta.

I saw the movie several times but I don't remember that.

How funny.

[2008]

32. Here's the dialogue from the Animal House scene referenced above...

Dean Wormer has just dissolved the fraternity, and the guys are sitting around moping about it when Bluto (a straight-F student played by John Belushi) decides it's time for a pep talk.

D-Day: War's over, man. Wormer dropped the big one.

Bluto: Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Otter: Germans?

Boon: Forget it, he's rolling.

Bluto: And it ain't over now. 'Cause when the goin' gets tough...

(thinks hard)

Bluto: ...the tough get goin'! Who's with me? Let's go!

(runs out, alone; then returns)

Bluto: What the fuck happened to the Delta I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts, huh? "Ooh, we're afraid to go with you Bluto, we might get in trouble." Well just kiss my ass from now on! Not me! I'm not gonna take this. Wormer, he's a dead man! Marmalard, dead! Niedermeyer...

Otter: Dead! Bluto's right. Psychotic, but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards. Now we could do it with conventional weapons that could take years and cost millions of lives. No, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

Bluto: We're just the guys to do it.

D-Day: Let's do it.

Bluto: LET'S DO IT!

[tandot]

39. Darn. I saw that movie a few times but I don't remember that.

Thanks!

[sasha031]

3. Give us liberty or death

wonderful essay, we need the 60's back, there are wonderful demonstrations, then we go home. It's going to have to take real action, and we have to be willing to lose everything, but without Liberty, what do we have.

[sasha031]

5. this is like the Sandinista

and the hero's that got beaten and killed by corporations and government

[SlowDownFast]

7. Second amendment, baby.

I'll put on the record - I choose nonviolent lobbying of my elected officials.

When my particular 'officials' call for otherwise, I'll gladly back up The United States Constitution.

[bryant69]

9. I don't know - I don't think defeatists are like Lambs

Lambs are fluffy and cuddly. Defeatists are more like 6 legged Spiders.

Or Turtles maybe - turtles would be a good metaphor for defeatists.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[knight_of_the_star]

15. It's an Italian proverb

No idea who first said it though.

[LSK]

10. K&R

[hang a left]

11. I am a female and I don't have a pair...

I think that they are going to hang our asses out to dry in a Federal Judicary that has been stacked for 6 years. Tell me I'm wrong.


Don't give me that bs about not giving up the fight. I am in California and donated $1000 bucks to fight Leiberman's Independent run.

[LSK]

13. you are wrong

See November 7, 2006.

[bryant69]

14. I think this is in reference to a post started elsewhere

That was very specifically we should give up now on America. It doesn't sound like you have given up just that you are frustrated.

Bryant

[knight_of_the_star]

16. I'm not saying you are

Because it sounds like you're still fighting. Its those who roll over and die and urge others to join them. It won't be quick, it won't be easy, but victory comes to those who carry on.

[Skittles]

40. gawd I hate that sexist sh** equating male body parts with courage

:puke:

[jedr]

12. Not sure if you mean the fight against the Bush regime;

Or the war In Iraq. If you mean the war in Iraq you are very gullible if you think that these are the people who attack our country on 9-11. This is no fight to save our democracy ,this is a fight to to take the oil away from a nation who did nothing to us, and set up bases to control the oil flow for ourselves. Would the British have fought both the north and south to control their source of cotton? I can tell that you have never been used as cannon fodder and I know of 58,479 names on a wall that the world would be better off if they all were alive today. I served my time and fought my battles, perhaps you should do the same ; then come back and tell me how wonderful war can be. If ,however ,you mean the fight against the Bush regime; I'm in this battle for keeps.

[knight_of_the_star]

17. I mean fight the Bush admin

I wouldn't post something about giving up re: the Iraq War on here because 1.) I would have to put a sarcasm tag at the end of it and 2.) I would be flamed out of existence if I did.

[jedr]

22. Sorry for the rant, sometimes there are lurkers who stir the pot..n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

24. It's cool

Stuff happens.

ON EDIT:

Maybe you should post that rant on FReeperville, although it likely won't last for more than five seconds before being banned. If nothing else their reactions to it would be a great show.

[jedr]

25. Bernie Sanders on Thom Hartmann today summed it up;

the neocons have plotted this for 30 yrs and taking back our democracy won't happen overnight. We put Democrats back in office and the fight has just began. I'm in it for the long haul!

[omega minimo]

42. We The People rolled over during that time. LIHOP. Talk about wimps.

:boring:


Love Hartmann and he educates on the history of it very well.


NOT fighting this as it progressed has led us to this moment and all these "ballsy" pronouncements are too little, too late.

[waiting for hope]

19. "Tomorrow begins Today"

Enough said.

[loudsue]

37. Damn! That is one handsome man!

Whew!

:kick:

[emanymton]

20. Baa

[SlowDownFast]

21. What we have here

is the official dumbed down America.

Already happened.

It's either educate the masses, despite MSM ties and complacency with $, or let it go further down until suffering dictates otherwise.

This is why I am partly against unlimited (or amnesty for) illegal immigration:

It will set our progress back.

Folks coming from 3rd world countries think they have it great compared to where they came from - and they're right.

However, their worldview does not necessarily accompany what it means to be a part of the true United States and her Government.

Many times, as is the situation when finances are difficult - especially when you're a new immigrant - you could care less about how government works. My perception is it takes a few generations to make a politically aware family.

Now, that is a somewhat different situation with a generation of home-grown Americans who are raised on video games and sitcoms.

Between the two, our battles are cut out for us.

[knight_of_the_star]

23. Color me confused

But aside from the parts about illegal immigration I'm not sure how you are responding.

[juno jones]

30. IMO experience

The first and second generation Mexican-Americans I've known have been INTENSELY patriotic, more so than many multi-generational people I know. My husband's best friend is the son of Mexican immagrants (legal) and it used to drive my husband nuts that he would always insist on everyone standing for the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the beginning of games if they were watching them at his house. Known quite a few who served in the army. My child's math tutor is married to a Mexican who is currently a fighter pilot with US forces in Iraq. So no, I don't think they are indifferent when it comes to patriotism and what it means to be a US citizen...

on edit, sorry, bad syntax nite here

[ComerPerro]

31. so shouldn't we cut off all forms of immigration?

[pretzel4gore]

26. i wanna see imperialism defeated...

;)
btw you mentioned Winston choichill, the fat cigar eating patriot....lookit this:
http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-1/ww1.htm
snip>
The method by which the United States was drawn into the war started on October 25, 1911, when Winston Churchill was appointed the First Lord of the Admiralty in England.
Winston Churchill is an interesting individual, as he later came to the conclusion that there was indeed a master conspiracy at work in the major events of the world, when he wrote the following in 1920: "From the days of Spartacus—Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, to those of Trotsky (Russia)... this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization... has been steadily growing."

<snip

in Colin Simpson's 'The Lusitania' the direct role of those who wanted the US involved in the 1st world war could be traced in part by the fate of the Lusitania, which was sunk by German u-boat in 1915, 2 years before the US entered on Britain's side (and doomed any German hope of just peace)....the cast of characters included Robert Lansing, uncle of the Dulles brothers. The lusitania was carrying munitions, making her a combatant, in effect, and using the 1200 or so passengers as bait...Winston Churchill was the Sea Lord, the guy who put all the pieces in place, Lansing used the incident to quietly build up sentiment in US for the war. But the main reason for this post, and totally overlooked it seems, is to suggest that Adolph Hitler, who in WW1 was a simple soldier, predisposed to be driven mad by a possible German defeat anyway, saw what happened with the Lusitania, knew Germany was basically innocent, and this must have thereafter helped form his political character, which history still uses as template for evil.
Your talking about the fall of France, Britain's reaction to the war, and Churchill's heroism etc skip over the details that, to put it plainly, meant that neither Hitler nor the nazis would ever have happened w/out the events that formed them...the Dulles brothers, the NSAct of 1947, Churchill's idiotic hatred for working people getting power and overthrowing 'civilization' etc all should be considered....ours is the most corrupt, nastiest and most anti-social society/culture in all of human history, thanks to men like Churchill, Lansing, the Dulles brothers and so on....cuz Hitler, Stalin, Mao and such men as Fidel Castro etc were and are reacting TO THEM! It's the lions of western imperialism who have always shit in the world's soup....and they get away with it because lies are simple while truth is complex...

[byronius]

29. Received and Noted. Two Words: HENRY WAXMAN!

I want to grow up to be JUST LIKE HIM.

[WilliamPitt]

34. What brought this on?

Oh, P.S., not for nothing, but unless you want to lose half the population, you might want to think about dropping the "grow a pair" thing. Not the PC police here, but I know for a stone fact that a lot of our best warriors here will read that first sentence, toss a mental high-five to their ovaries, and just move on. And they're right to do so, because cowards have "a pair," too. Balls ain't no standard for courage. Just ask my mom.

:toast:

[Kablooie]

35. Yeah, but other than that, everything is lost. Woe is me.

[MLFerrell]

36. "It is better to live one day as a lion than one hundred years as a lamb."

There is no honor in fighting for a lost cause.

That being said, I don't think that this cause is lost just yet.

Now after * starts a war with Iran, all bets are off. We will have about 72 hours after the bombs start to fall to take back America, because any longer and the fascists occupying our government will make it impossible for us to divest them of power.

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." -John Fitzgerald Kennedy

[omega minimo]

41. Macho bullshit causes-- not solves-- problems

These recent tirades against "defeatists" might do us all a favor and indicate what they hell they're referring to.


:bounce: :wow: :bounce: