We are such a great country - god, we really are -

[Joe for Clark]

we could have bent the will of the world to our way - and we didn't.

We are the Romans - with a sense of right and wrong.

And we did the right thing so many times.

WE GET A DO - OVER.

We deserve that - at least that!!

Joe

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. You don't get do-overs in life much.

You do get a chance to pick yourself up, brush yourself off, spend some time re-learning humility and if you are lucky, you get to start again.

But you always carry the scars of your mistakes. As a reminder.

I think that we, as a country, need some time re-learning humility.

[Joe for Clark]

5. No - you don't get do overs in life.

I am not aguring for me - I am arguing for us - all of us.

Maybe we are the country that allowed Iraq - we are. But we are also the country kicked Nazi Germany out of the picture for this next thousand years. WE ARE THE SAME PEOPLE. How can we not get credit for that and not the other??

We get a DO OVER - if any people in the history of the world ever deserved it - WE DO!!!

Joe

[Dhalgren]

8. The Soviet Union had a little something to do with the Nazi's downfall.

We are no "better" than any number of other country's and "worse" than some. It doesn't do much good to piss and moan about how great we are when our entire history is cluttered with brutality, murder, robbery, and unspeakable cruelty. For every "good" thing that can shown in US history, there are a dozen horrible crimes that can be laid at our door. What we have to do is hold our better natures before us and resolve to become a better nation, a better people. We won't do that, but it is what we should do...

[Nevernose]

14. And the Soviets couldn't have done it w/o us.

If there hadn't been a western front, then there would been just one front.

And when you say that '...our entire history is cluttered with brutality, murder, robbery, and unspeakable cruelty. For every "good" thing that can shown in US history, there are a dozen horrible crimes that can be laid at our door.'

You could be talking about any country, at any time. Our faults do not lessen our achievements.

And, lest you think I'm just being argumentative, when you say that "What we have to do is hold our better natures before us and resolve to become a better nation, a better people.", I have to agree. Truer words have never been written.

In the short term, you're right, we probably won't do that. But we WILL evolve someday, and people like us are a part of that evolution.

Cynicism and optimism are not mutually exclusive concepts.

[Joe for Clark]

17. Optimisim is that thing grown from cynicisim.

But the reason the Russians survived? - Hell, we gave them those P-39s we wouldn't even let our kids in. Why you think the Germans got so many kills??

Joe

[Jonathan50]

24. The P 39 was actually a very good ground attack warbird..

It had a 37mm cannon firing through the propeller hub and was quite good at taking out light armor.

The P39 was the WWII version of an A10 Warthog, I always thought it was one of the best looking WWII warbirds.

[Joe for Clark]

27. It was a piece of crap - none of our guys wanted anything to do

with. Cobra - a joke.

109 or 190 - it wasn't even close.

Why you think we gave them away??

A-10 is named after the jug - you know why??

I can say this nicely - americans would have loved to fight cobras - and it wasn't cause they thought they were a great plane. That is the nice way to put it.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

32. I didn't say it was a great fighter.. it lacked high altitude performance

Due to lack of a supercharger or turbocharger..

It was a good ground attack aircraft, as was the P63 Kingcobra.

[Joe for Clark]

33. No - no room for doubt here - it really was crap.

Dad flew a jug - killed 109s, 190s and a 262.

WHen he said it had no chance- that means the red baron himself could fly one and it had - NO CHANCE.

It was crap.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

46. What part of ...

Ground. Attack. Aircraft. Do you not understand?

An A10 Would. Have. No. Chance. Against an F16, but it's still a great ground attack aircraft.

The biggest problem with the Jug is that it had high fuel consumption and consequent short range.

The P51 could escort bombers all the way to Berlin and back, something the Jug could never do.

[Joe for Clark]

48. I was condecsending - I did not mean to be.

Dad was a prety well known fighter pilot of the time. I loved dad - and all the guys - affects my judgement.

39 - it really was a piece of crap - they wouldn't have gotten into one.

Dad flew jugs in the 12th and then mustangs and jets.

He says it is piece of crap - I'd take him at his word.

And he did 109s and a 190 and a 262 - he knew crap.

He was that good.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

98. If the CO had said..

This Airacobra is your plane..

Dad would have saluted smartly and got right in it.

Just like when they handed me an M16, I said: "This is my rifle, this is my gun, this is for shooting, this is for fun", while grabbing my crotch.

The M16 was a piece of crap in 1969.

A whole lotta Marines and soldiers were stuck with it anyway.

[Joe for Clark]

100. Man, Jonathan - they were trained pilots.

They knew.
Joe

[Joe for Clark]

101. Jonathan - I misread this -

Sorry -

I have this thing about this whole war -stupid is one thing - but this on a whole nother level.

I am sorry buddy.

Joe

[Nevernose]

31. Did I mention the land-lease act?

I was referencing the fact that there wouldn't have been an Eastern Front had there not also been a Western Front. If the Nazis had been free to devote their full attention towards Eastern Europe and not had to worry about the United States and England on the West, even if in a smaller way, the Nazis might just have won.

And, for the record: we might have given them P-39s, but that was a damn site better than the nothing that they'd effectively had.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nevernose]

37. I wouldn't go quite that far.

They were fighting for their survival, and bravely at that. Had Germany been as close as Canada, we would probably have taken similar losses.

The vast majority of Russians, then and now, have the exact same purpose as we do, and always have. To live their lives as best they can, scratch out some kind of meaning if possible, love their families, raise their kids, etc. I don't think a Russian casualty is any less significant than an American one. Three generations later, and they're still paying.

[Joe for Clark]

40. I would.

You know what they had up their sleeves for us?

You know why our kids dug in so hard? - They saw what happens to a city under attack - and they would not allow it in our country.

And they didn't. I really don't think much of the Russians - I never will.

Joe

[knight_of_the_star]

58. They won their war on their own

Lend-Lease helped keep them on their feet while they moved their industry east, but once they had the factories back up and humming they did just fine on their own. That and the fact that practically every Soviet soldier and partisan was fighting like a man who was already dead and just looking for company in the graveyard helped a lot.

[Joe for Clark]

62. I am telling you - and it is a fact - they raped 2 million german

girls coming over the border -

so you tell me - how good were they??

Joe

[knight_of_the_star]

105. Did I say they were great?

No, but then again the Nazis did the same things in the Soviet Union. It doesn't excuse them, but it at least puts it in perspective.

[Greyhound]

68. "Not one step back" helped the most. If you picked up a fallen comrade's

rifle and continued to move forward, the nazis might kill you, if you went the other direction the commissars would definitely kill you. Great choice...

[knight_of_the_star]

106. At first yeah

That was when the war was getting started, but then again the Red Army was doing EVERYTHING they could during 1941 not to get run over, they were using mine dogs then as one example of the sheer desperation. By Stalingrad the hatred for the Wehrmacht and stopping the 6th Army was good enough motivation. The Nazi atrocities in za Rodina gave them lots of reason to fight on their own. That and giving them vodka in their rations probably wasn't a bad thing either.

As a small lesser-known fact the political commissar as a position in all senses of the word was abolished by 1942 at the request of the Generals because they got in the way too much.

[1932]

25. 20,000,000 Russians died fighting Hitler.

Right?

[Joe for Clark]

29. Thats right - and 400,000 americans.

Guess they didn't do so well, you think??

Joe

[Jonathan50]

30. Yes, about twenty million Soviets died in the Great Patriotic War.

The Soviets lost more platoon commanders than the rest of the Allies did total troops..

In the early stages of Operation Barbarossa, the Germans had a 15:1 kill ratio over the Soviets and yet the Soviets kept on coming.

[Joe for Clark]

41. I will say this once and I will quit -

I know what they did - and I do not forgive them - not ever.

And neither did our guys. Those bastards were our "black mark" on that whole experience.

Everything I am about to say - I went out of my way to keep from publication - but I'll tell you -

My dad was a good little catholic boy - just like me - he saw what they were doing. They were raping those girls.

He went in with eight 50s banging and he wasn't aiming for Germans.

Those bastards are lucky to be alive right now -

Russians can go to hell.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

42. The Germans raped plenty of Soviets, Poles, Lithuanians, French .. etc..

Rape was done by all sides, including the Americans, it's part of war.

Maybe if you had twenty million of your countrymen killed you'd do a little raping too.

Did you ever see the movie "Cross of Iron" with James Coburn?

He played a Wehrmacht NCO on the eastern front and he ends up giving one of his troops to a bunch of Soviet women that the troop was raping, they don't show what happened.

There's an old saying: If you are ever captured, don't let them give you to the women.

[Joe for Clark]

44. It was a bad time in history -

I'll give that.

Those rapes were systematic and approved - and the war was won at that point.

Why did they do that?? You think americans would EVER do that??

Maybe there were just the bastards they appeared to be - maybe - huh??

I will never in my life give an inche to the Nazi - not ever - but I will say, some of my family that killed those people - Germans - they did understand better.

I just understand any people that could do such a thing- are NOT my friends.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

47. You don't appear to know much about American history...

"Why did they do that?? You think americans would EVER do that??"

Does the phrase "nits make lice" have any meaning for you?

If not, I suggest you Google it.

[Joe for Clark]

49. Intersting you should say that Jonathan50 -

I am published as a writter of 19th century warfare.

I am actually an authority on american 19th century war -

Google it man - I wrote On a Wing and Prayer.

I am FMJ Pacheco, buddy.

Joe

[Jonathan50]

93. Credentials don't impress me at all..

I've met too many credentialed fools.

Answer the question.

Does the phrase "nits make lice" have any meaning for you?

[Joe for Clark]

99. Guess Not,

[Jonathan50]

102. Nits make lice..

http://www.manataka.org/page161.html


On the early morning of November 29, 1864, Chivington's troops, led by the old mountain man, Jim Beckwourth, moved into position near Black Kettle's camp along Sand Creek. They were soon joined by over a hundred men of the Colorado First Regiment, followed by troops from Fort Lyon, led by Major Anthony. Rounding out the armed troops were four twin-gun howitzers. A hasty camp was made amid the two-foot snow drifts. No fire burned as the troopers hunkered down to a quick meal of maggot-infested hardtack. The men were tired, saddle sore, cold, nervous, and hungry.

Camped in the ravine were some six hundred Indians, primarily women and children, along with Lone Bear, White Antelope, Left Hand and Black Kettle. Chivington knew where Black Kettle's village was. Chivington, along with Governor Evans and Major Anthony had sent them there. He knew they were friendly and would not suspect a thing. He knew his force was larger, better armed and better equipped. Chivington, in all probability, planned his attack back in September, when Anthony told Black Kettle where to take his people. In this way, the forces at Fort Lyon would keep an eye on the Indians. In any case, Major Anthony had done his part; for better or worse. A victory would put Chivington in the forefront of any political ambitions he may have had. The mass hysteria of Denver, and favorable coverage by the Rocky Mountain News, supported any action Chivington was about to take.

The attack came at dawn. "Take no prisoners," Chivington ordered, adding his own slogan, "...nits make lice." The attack lasted over eight hours, becoming one of the worst acts of savagery that exists in records of Colorado history. When the first shots were fired by the troops, less than a hundred warriors ran up the creek bed and hastily dug pits to established a line of defense.

As a military operation, the battle was a horrible bungle. The surprised warriors, ill-armed, managed to hold their own and keep the soldiers at bay for nearly eight hours. Meanwhile, nearly five hundred Indians managed to escape across the prairie, including Black Kettle. Command was lost early in the day, fighting was confused, as soldiers were caught in their own crossfire.

Those Indians who could not flee the bloody insanity, died on the spot. Eye-witness testimony estimated the number just under two hundred, while Chivington would boast six hundred hostiles killed. Two thirds of the dead were women and children. White Antelope was among the first killed in the military fire. Once the firing began, he left his lodge with arms extended, in the traditional sign of peace. He was shot down in a single round of fire.

Black Kettle immediately flew the American flag, as well as the white flag given him by Major Anthony. The sign of peace ignored, the military onslaught continued. Black Kettle eventually took his wife and fled toward the prairie. His wife was shot, and as troopers rode near, they put eight more bullets in her body. Black Kettle returned for his wife, and seeing her alive, threw her over his shoulder and ran. He later extracted the bullets, and his wife lived.

A three-old Indian toddler, perfectly naked, toddled out toward the dry creek bed. Three troopers dismounted some seventy yards from the child, and assumed the cavalry kneeling position for fire. One carbine shot hit the sand at the child's feet. Let me try... the second trooper demanded. He also missed. Hell, spat the third trooper, as he raised his carbine and fired. The child dropped in the sand. One nit that would never become lice.

By late afternoon the battle was over, and Chivington would receive a hero's welcome in Denver. The Rocky Mountain News reported ...all Cheyenne chiefs, Black Kettle, White Antelope, Little Robe, Left Hand, Knock Knee, and One Eye were killed. In no single battle in North America, we believe, have so many Indians been slain. Colorado soldiers have again covered themselves with glory. The news account, obviously erroneous, would also prove to be disingenuous.

[Nevernose]

34. Right.

I'm waiting for the rest of your post, or for you to even make a point.

Did I denigrate the Russians or something by pointing out a widely accepted historical fact?

And do you have a point to make about the rest of my earlier post?

[Joe for Clark]

15. No, I don't think so -

Do you have any idea just what they did???

I deleted a lot of stuff when I wrote my WWII book. Some had to do with the Russians. I know they had more than a little to do with my dad not getting killed over Frankfort.

I did it in respect though. Not cause I thought they were so great.

Maybe 2 million german girls were raped in retribution by those Russians - maybe more. I know that from history books - more - I know it caused dad saw it. Saw them do it - and would have shot them if he could - our Russian allies.

You know what I think - FDR ws just that good - and Stalin was just that stupid. I think we are so lucky FDR ws our leader - I really do.

Russians - I think they make good cannon fodder. That is about it.

Joe

[LSK]

52. Holy Crap dude! step away from the cold war propaganda!!!

"Russians - I think they make good cannon fodder. That is about it."

Its been what? Almost 20 years now??? Theres no excuse for such stupidity anymore. None.

You really really really need to be reading some Howard Zinn. Or at the very least Rise and Fall of the third Reich by William Shirer.

Wow!

[Joe for Clark]

55. No 60 years. Speer wrote Rise and fall.

Do not even go there - You haven't any idea my family ground?? DO that first.

I made no comment about the Russians after 1945 - but I do think they were indeed bastards up until that time - in fact I don't just think so.

Joe

[Vidar]

78. Speer , Hitler's architect & later Minister for Armaments,.

wrote "Inside the Third Reich ". William Shirer, an American journalist and historian, wrote "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." Both are excellent, but they are very different books.

[joshcryer]

54. Did your book write about out the USA joined the war pretty late?

I think that's a pretty important fact.

[Joe for Clark]

60. I guess important is relative.

I wrote on a wing and a prayer. You can read the exerpts.

You'll have no doubt where I am coming from.

Joe

[joshcryer]

65. I'm just saying, the US should've never profited from that war.

Otherwise the US undeniably ended the war 5 years sooner than it would've ended (we really got in it 2 years after it started and played ball for 4 years after that; much time of which was spent defending the eastern coast and building our military to one that was uncomparable in the history of the world).

Little known fact, or at least, I don't know if you know this or not, but of the 40 or so million civilians that died, 90% were on the allies side. That fact alone makes me "proud to be an American" (or at least, "a westerner"). We only killed 10% of "their" civilians!

Oh, and don't be too hard on the Russians, 13 or so million of civilians were lost on their side, the most of any of the Allies (and they lost the most military, too). If I were them I'd be raping people too. Seriously.

[Joe for Clark]

69. You know why I am so hard on the Russians??

Dad killed a family coming in on an attack at the end of the war. Three little kids and the mother.

Splattered them. Less than two weeks later - it was Russians that took a town he surrended in - after all the things he saw them do.

It was war - all that. That nightmare survived even the German torturers.

But a decade -two, three - perspectives change.

Oh, he still remembered - nightmares - killing those people - but he also remembered Buchenwald. Balanced it out in his mind. Still had the nightmares - but he also remembered why he did what he had to do.

The Russians caused problems remembering who was reallly right -

So they can screw themselves.


Maybe dad did forgive - not me - I lived with those nightmares he had - so, I do not. They can go f themselves.

Joe

[Greyhound]

73. They were barbarians in every meaning of the term, and always have been.

If we had not been dragged into the war in Europe (and We The People didn't want to get involved, that's why we came in so late, the Japanese forced the issue), all of what we now call western Europe and most, if not all, of eastern Europe would now be Germany, that's just a fact. Now it is also true that the nazis were ill-equipped to deal with the Russian winter and it would have taken them a couple more years to beat them, but without us, it was just a matter of how long it would've taken them to slaughter all of the Russian people. They had nothing to fight with.

American business sided with the nazis and we didn't give two shits about the Jews or any of their other victims, it was Europe's problem and not ours. It was only through FDR successfully selling the war and mobilizing literally America's entire industrial capacity that we saved their asses and beat the Japanese, for all intents and purposes, single handedly.

[Joe for Clark]

77. We are catholic. My mom was first generation yugoslavian.

We never did figure out exactly how many of the family got executed in work camps - just estimates.

I think your post about FDR is right on.

Couldn't agree more if I tried.

Joe

[leftynyc]

81. I sometimes wonder what would have happened

with no Pearl Harbor attack. As you pointed out, US business was in bed with the Nazi's and Roosevelt was doing nothing to help the Jews. Do you think we would have joined eventually anyway?

[Greyhound]

86. No, generally the American people didn't want to get into yet another European war.

I think that after the major fighting died down, we would have negotiated with the nazis to make some kind of non-aggression treaty, Hitler would have sunk into madness and been killed/deposed by the Germans, after that is any body's guess. I do think that most of the Eastern European's that weren't one of the scapegoats (Jews, Gypsies, Gays, etc.) would have been better off than they ended up under Stalin, and I believe that the same scapegoats were treated almost, if not as badly, by the Soviets.

The whole thing was so fucked up and the consequences so enormous that they are incomprehensible. We could have gone with some kind of alliance to split up the world, and ironically, that's just where we're headed today except that it is the corporations doing the splitting instead of the nations, which I believe is even worse because people, ostensibly, get some say in how a nation is run which is not the case with a corporation.

[treestar]

111. Why don't they get a do-over?

Geez, how unreasonably one sided and selfish. And judging everyone tribally, too.

Quit talking about your personal facts, when you're condemning entire peoples.

[Joe for Clark]

71. I know my Father -

He was a great pilot - so when I say he would open up on people doing a bad thing -

No doubt in my mind - I knew him.

Absolutley - lotta dead people with cause.

I think, he would have felt better if he could have.

Sometimes - there is just a right and a wrong.

And he was a really good shooter.


Joe

[treestar]

110. Doing good things in the past does not give us a pass

for doing bad things now.

[GregD]

2. And we may just get that if we present ourselves in 2008

with someone resepected. Someone not named Hillary.

[NRaleighLiberal]

3. But, as we know, Empires Fall. Regrettably, we have a forgetful emperor.

We have a dangerous fool in the White House that squandered it all - and squanders it to this day. Will we indeed get a do over????

[Joe for Clark]

18. Empires fall for cause - is that guy our Nero??

After just six years??

I don't think so. Just a pimple on our history - at best.

Joe

[knight_of_the_star]

61. I hope he's just Nero and not Commodus

Nero was in the grand scheme of the Empire's history a nasty blip on the radar screen, Commodus was the harbinger of the end of the good times for Rome.

[leftynyc]

82. With the weapons in our arsenal

history can be changed in a heartbeat. Their arsenal can be very dangerous as well. The days of facing your enemy and shooting until the last man stands are long over.

[Greyhound]

89. The Roman empire fell because, just as today, the Senate (legislature) became

corrupt and abusive, absolutely entrenched and preoccupied with their own internal squabbling and turf wars and intrigue, this lead to the business of the Empire being neglected, which in turn allowed the republic to fall away to the seemingly easy fix of abrogating power to Caesar because "one man can get thing done", _{and I can't be blamed for what he does}.

(Any of this sounding at all familiar?)

The Roman empire began to fail long before its eventual collapse, primarily because they were exactly the same people that we are today.

[graywarrior]

4. Sometimes greatness must be brought to its knees to learn humility.

We're headed in that direction, but it will be the middle class who suffers. The poor will probably do better. Their America has been a third world country for some time now.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

11. sadly, I am almost looking forward to the crash

As one of the 'great unwashed', I know we will fair much better than those who won't know how to find food, or do without.

When I get really depressed about what could be coming... that's my "safe place"

It's sad, really.

[Joe for Clark]

20. It is a realistic fall back position.

Probably not sad - maybe too realistic.

Oh, We agree.

Joe

[Greyhound]

50. You get it. There are few things harder than being deprived while surrounded

by abundance, but as you say, when the fecal matter collides with the air circulation device, we'll know how to survive better than they.

It is perversely satisfying to think about all these heartless bastards finding themselves on the receiving end of their vaunted capitalist system.:hi:

[Joe for Clark]

64. Damn well put!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. Who's "we"?

This is (or was, or could be) a great country only to the extent it can live up to the ideals expressed in the Constitution. And right now that's not happening. Many of us want it to happen; yet somehow or other (probably by fraud), "we" managed to wind up with an administration that is the antithesis of those ideals.

What do "we" deserve? If you ask me, until "we" reclaim the Constitution, "we" don't deserve a do-over. The Bush administration has done its level best to bend the rest of the world to its will; the fact that they have not actually managed to do so to the extent they desire is only because their evil is exceeded by their incompetence. And to the extent the Bush administration is "us" -- and to the rest of the world, they are "us" -- it is not a true statement that "we" didn't at least try to control most of the rest of the world.

Don't forget that this imperialistic administration has even tried to control the "morals" of the rest of the world by refusing to fund birth control in poor countries.

Yes, "we" have done the right thing sometimes, but the defeat of Nazi Germany (for which we had the help of many other countries) doesn't entitle us to rest on our laurels forever. We have also done the wrong thing many, many times: to name just a few, the genocide of Native American tribes; slavery; discrimination against women; sedition laws; Vietnam. And now Iraq. Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo.

"We" are not special because we are American. We are just as capable of evil and atrocity as any other nationality or culture. And as long as we continue to cling to the myth of American exceptionalism and turn a blind eye to the reality of our own many national disgraces (not the least of which is lacking the political will to impeach Bush), we will never become the great nation we claim to be.

[Joe for Clark]

9. We are the United States of America -

All of us -

Yeah, we are very special. We could have taken a world once - and we didn't - we are such a great people.

We liberated Dachau and Buchenwald - WE DID IT. We caused a dark age to go away - WE DID IT.

Cause we did - And I weigh that against the last six years of our history - not much of a decision point to me.

We get a do over. We earned that right - in B-17s and B-24s over sixty years ago.

They earned that - for all of us.

I will not let go of the belief.

Joe

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. That was then -- sixty years ago. We don't get a free pass forever

just because of WWII. And you can't ignore the fact that the Soviet Union and Britain, in particular, along with the French Underground, the Norwegians, and other European countries, had a very considerable part in that victory. In fact, any historian will tell you that we couldn't have done it without them. Britain had been fighting the Nazis for two years before "we" (reluctantly) were dragged into WWII. And the USSR suffered horrendous losses but managed to defeat the Nazis on their borders without much help from us. You might want to read a little more history before giving the U.S. sole credit for the defeat of the Nazis.

And even the conduct of WWII was not without controversy -- the bombing of Dresden, for example, was entirely an attack on a civilian population, like the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And during that "good" war, the U.S. interned thousands of innocent citizens, loyal Americans, whose only crime was having been born to Japanese parents.

We, as a nation, have done many things that we can't be proud of. Defeating the Nazis doesn't entitle us, ever after, to commit atrocities. WWII doesn't wipe out Abu Ghraib.

[Joe for Clark]

16. Yes it does.

They were your parents or the parents of your parents - you know what their whole hope was??

That they would know at least a couple of generations would NOT know what war really meant.

That is why they did it. They were very parctical.

Funny you say Dresden -

My dad was there - and he was there at Frankfort and Cologne. He flew at Ploesti.

And he was - by far - a better democrat than any of us.

I thought about it - you know why - cause he really knew what war meant - killing for killing.

That is my theory, anyway.

Joe

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

21. And how long will we use WWII as an excuse for everything else we do?

Abu Ghraib? Oh, yeah, that was kind of bad, but we won WWII, so it's really OK.

Torturing people who haven't even been charged with a crime? Well, we won WWII, so no problem.

Invading a country that never attacked us for totally fabricated reasons to advance an imperialist agenda? Hey, no big deal; we won WWII!

In another 40 years, when WWII will have been over for a hundred years, will it still be used a justification for all the crap we've done or will do? In two hundred years? Are the British still pointing to winning the Battle of F&cking Agincourt as a way of justifying their participation in the Iraq debacle?

My point is simply this: As long as we keep buying into the myth that we are somehow better than everybody else (because we won WWII, or because of some other reason), we will either fail altogether to acknowledge our failings as a country, or we will continue to make excuses for them -- and as a result we will never be able to live up in actuality to our inflated vision of our national "self."

[Joe for Clark]

23. Not an excuse - a "learning experience"

That is exactly what it was - or should have been.

You say Abu Grahib - like there is some kind of point to it. I may shock you - they are that bad -kill them in the field. They don't belong in a prison camp. And I know, painfully, there are some people like that. I guess, I don't think it is so wrong for the same reason you do.

My kid has been out for a few tours - point blank - I told him you feel threatened you shoot first. And god help me, that is right. I know it is right.

Do I think the United States is that good -oh, I sure do. I have Uncles that served on Tarawa and Okinawa. I know exactly what I am talking about.

So - we agree- for different reasons.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

26. Ocelot - war is a very dirty thing -

Once started - nobody really knows who did what to who.

True in all wars at all times.

That the WWII vets were that great - man, they really were. DO you really know what was going on over there?? I do. I listened all my life.

That we killed pows - of course we did. WHen they tortured one of ours - you think the guys didn't return it - of course we did. That is how war goes - all war.

The thing that made us different -better - is we didn't carry it out to extremes. WHen given a chance - we just went home. Not like the Romans or the Huns or any other attacking force - we were uniquely american.

And that is exacly why I think we get a "do over".

Joe

[MazeRat7]

7. Denial. Anger. Bargaining. Depression. Acceptance.

Sounds like you are at about stage 3....

MZr7

[frogcycle]

10. the do-over:

Al Gore agrees to enter the race
The others gracefully step aside - or at least they conduct civilized, constructive campaigns until overwhelmed by his primary wins

he wins the general election in a landslide of epic proportions

then we can say "here, world, is the rightful moral leader of the planet" We owed you, and we put him into the most powerful position in the world to do the most good possible.

then despite his passion for things climatological, he delegates the day-to-day portion of what he has been doing on that front and focuses on diplomacy. Big time. He does what Jimmy Carter tried to do. He uses his well-earned fame and respect, get people to negotiating tables, and starts to fulfill Wilson's dream that died with the League of Nations.

He gets Chavez off his high horse, resurrects the OAS, starts to build a strong ecomonic partnership in the western hemisphere that can become energy independent, move manufacturing jobs from the far east to South and Central America

[Joe for Clark]

22. We agee about 110%.

Yeah, he may indeed be our "do over".

Good post!!

Joe

[joshcryer]

66. Gore would 100% 'redeem' America.

Really, when I see those photographs of Bill Clinton "walking among the people freely" it makes me sick, it really does. Bush couldn't even be SEEN out in public in another country. That's just messed up.

[alittlelark]

12. We need Quantum Physisists to get on this problem

Immediately. We need a 'Manhattan Project' to learn how to turn back time.

....sigh.

[Joe for Clark]

28. Maybe.

[Jcrowley]

19. Oh Tara

[Jonathan50]

35. The Kinks... "Catch Me Now I'm Falling" 1979

Catch Me Now I'm Falling
Written by: Ray Davies

I remember, when you were down
And you needed a helping hand
I came to feed you
But now that I need you
You won't give me a second glance
Now I'm calling all citizens from all over the world
This is Captain America calling
I bailed you out when you were down on your knees
So will you catch me now I'm falling

Help me now I'm calling you
Catch me now I'm falling
I'm in your hands, it's up to you
Catch me now I'm falling

I remember when you were down
You would always come running to me
I never denied you and I would guide you
Through all of your difficulties
Now I'm calling all citizens from all over the world
This is Captain America calling
I bailed you out when you were down on your knees
So will you catch me now I'm falling

Help me now I'm calling you
Catch me now I'm falling
I'm in your hands, it's up to you
Catch me now I'm falling

When you were broke you would come to me
And I would always pull you round
Now I call your office on the telephone
And your secretary tells me that she's sorry,
But, you've gone out of town.

This is Captain America calling
This is Captain America calling

Help me now I'm calling you
Catch me now I'm falling
I'm in your hands, it's up to you
Catch me now I'm falling

Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling

I stood by you through all of your depressions
And I lifted you when you were down
Now it's your chance to do the same for me
I call your office and your secretary tells me
That you've gone out of town

This is Captain America calling
This is Captain America calling

Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling

I was the one who always bailed you out
Of your depressions and your difficulties
I never thought that you would let me down
But the next time you're in trouble
Better not come running to me

Now I'm calling all citizens from all over the world
This is Captain America calling
I bailed you out when you were down on your knees
So will you catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling

Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling
Catch me now I'm falling

[Kazak]

38. America, get yourself a do-over!!!

Elect Al Gore!!!

[ContraBass Black]

39. We sure as hell did Iraq over.

[DearAbby]

43. No, we dont deserve a "Do over"

we can only hope to learn from this, and apply that lesson to be a better people. And continue our journey of being a true Democratic Republic.

[Joe for Clark]

45. You know if you are right -a lot of our kids are going to die.

I think we get the do over.

Joe

[ends_dont_justify]

51. Rome? I don't remember rome being any good

Didn't they hostilly take over most of the known world and result in a huge fall in scientific development since when rome was ransacked most of their technologies and texts were stolen or otherwise destroyed? Hated by most of the known world?

I don't really hold an opinion one way or the other about the do-over, we'll get it anyway. I just don't think Rome is an acceptable comparison for good guys...

[Joe for Clark]

53. They are not a good example of the right -

I think they are barbarians - as much as the huns were.

All I meant - is we are probably in the same position of power.

That is all.

If anyone in the history of the world gets a "do-over" we do. We are first in line.

Joe

[spoony]

57. The Romans were no barbarians,

especially within the context of their time.

[knight_of_the_star]

59. They weren't barbarians

They were quite smart and often adapted what they found in local areas and worked to integrate local populations into the empire.

[Joe for Clark]

63. really - so were the goths = the gauls - who was??

Joe

[knight_of_the_star]

107. Ummm where did that come from?

Honestly where that come from, I didn't say squat about the Goths or the Gauls, and if you're saying that those two were Romans then I think you're making a mistake with your history.

[spoony]

56. Really?

The education and overall quality of life as a Roman province was typically far above the tribal existences people otherwise lived before they came. And how you can blame the Romans for the fall of that quality after being sacked is beyond comprehension--maybe start by blaming the VisiGoths and others who did the destroying.

[Joe for Clark]

91. Oh man - I make no excuses for them -

don't you.

Barbarians - in all ways.

I am roman catholic.

Do you think they may have pissed off your ancestors in gaul, in germany- bet they did!!

ANd you would be in the mainstream on that.

They were barbarians -

Joe

[spoony]

104. I just can't see that

In modern terms I suppose they'd be barbarians. But these people set up a system of roads, aquaducts, all sorts of technology. They took tribes and made them urbanites dealing in international trade. They instituted formal education in their provinces. The Romano-Britons I talked about had a pretty good deal going, to be perfectly frank. Yes, they were conquered, but compared to their lives under Anglo-Saxon-Jute conquest (until St. Augustine arrived, anyway) where they had to flee to caves in Wales, it was a relatively benign rule.

(Edit: By and by, I whole-heartedly agree with the core of your thread here, I merely quibble with this point about the Romans)

[entanglement]

67. High time for humanity to evolve beyond the present prolonged phase of adolescent nationalism

n/t

[Joe for Clark]

72. We learn from what we learned.

I am a hot button on WWII - cause I know - we better listen to what they have to say.

Joe

[Greyhound]

74. It's certainly not PC to say so now, over 60 years and two generations

away from the reality, but Patton was totally correct in his assessment and opinion of what we needed to do in '45.

In war, moderation just makes more victims. One of the many, many, reasons we should avoid it at all costs.

[Joe for Clark]

79. He probably was.

I know so many that served under him - they hated him.

But you know- the same people loved Orin Patch - so??

Patton - (excuse me dad) - he had the concept right.

He no business using the air corp like forward artillery -

But correct concept.

I agree with you.

Joe

[Greyhound]

87. Patton was brilliant, but had a 17th century mind. A patrician that was really easy to hate,

a brilliant tactician, a prima donna of the worst sort, and an excellent judge of character. One of the things I liked about him was him saving the Lipizzaners from the Russians that wanted to eat them.

My family has always been Navy, so no personal accounts of his antics, but he did the job better than anyone else.

A brilliant, fucking bastard. Glad he was on our side.

[WilliamPitt]

70. Agreed.

Not so sure about the Roman thing, but about the goodness we all represent and can deliver, I have no doubts.

[Joe for Clark]

75. Maybe - I just don't like the Romans.

I don't. They were barbarians.

I have watched those kids - from grad class to the field for so long.

You know what - they really are good kids.

I trust them with my life - that good.

You know - in another time -my dad - if you said something bad about FDR or the party- he would literally kick your ass. And he could.

I trust those kids.

They are good kids -

Joe

[WilliamPitt]

76. My thinking

Most of us are from somewhere else, and the remaining population is native.

Those of us who are new (meaning "not here originally") have little in common. We came as boatswains on slaveships, or came chained in the hold, or fleeing famine, or war, or opression. We are from everywhere, encompassing every culture and religion and line of history.

All we really have in common are some old hand-written pieces of paper that delineate our rights and responsibilities. It seems small, but is in fact unutterably and overwhelmingly huge, this link we share.

I believe in those papers, and I live to remind others of this thing we share, even in this sea of differences.

That is our goodness...the papers, and the sharing, and the potential inherent in both.

[Mind_your_head]

80. The TRUTH and JUSTICE within those papers (w/in the legal/justice system)......

grants equality, justice, HOPE .... the FRAMEWORK in which we fight (and have a hope to SUCCEED in our endeavor for the "pursuit of happiness" ~ of which we may NEVER find, but can find solace in our wanderings).

[Joe for Clark]

83. It is not small to me -

I know what a carnal situation can do to people. SO I studied these people - and they did not cave - in the most dire situations. They were so american. Decent.

I grew up - they were my uncles and such - I don't know another way. You know??

I don't believe there is another way for us.

When I may say we are not the Romans - you know why - because I know, we do not exploit human nature that way - Our idea of winning a war - it is winning and going home. We hold nothing.

You know how great that makes us??

I saw we get a do over - my god, you have any doubt we deserve it??


Joe

[WilliamPitt]

85. Well, that's the thing.

"I saw we get a do over - my god, you have any doubt we deserve it??"

America isn't supposed to be about deserve. It's supposed to be about earn.

We have to earn that do-over.

We will.

[Joe for Clark]

88. Sorry-never could type for shit.

Still can't.

What can't you do??

Joe

[Greyhound]

92. I'd like to believe that, but I just don't see it happening. We've gone so wrong

for so long that we don't even recognize what's right any more, if we ever did. America has always been an ideal and we've never lived up to it, except for very brief interludes that have always, thus far, been extinguished, at the first opportunity.

We are or were, of necessity, a people with a vision of how things should be. We've lost that vision, hell hardly anybody even realizes what the vision was anymore, let alone that its been lost.

The American Dream was a dream of liberty, of free individuals living and working with each other because we choose to, toward a common goal. Now everybody thinks it is all about buying shit and pursuing a life of pointless acquisition. Of surrender and compromise and having more than your neighbor.

Who cares about freedom, I bought a new beemer.
You have no place to live? Sorry, my portfolio is doing great.
Our kids can barely read a road sign and can't comprehend the most basic concepts. So what? They just need to go to college so they can get a "good job".

[Greyhound]

84. As much as I agree with you in the other parts of this thread, I don't on this.

The Romans succeeded in establishing and holding a world-wide empire for a thousand years because they had the better way and forced the others to comply with it. Do you think that any of the other states they conquered would have brought paved roads, fresh water, law, and perhaps most importantly peace, to the other states they might have conquered?

The Romans were amazingly tolerant and, much like us, adopted or adapted the best of their client state's beliefs, traditions, cultures, languages, religions, sciences, etc. They didn't last a thousand years by running a police state, they lasted because they made life much better for most of the people that lived in those states. As I said before, they forced their system onto those conquered states, but once established the average people saw that their lives were better than they had been under the old king or whatever, they had more, worked less, lived longer, and their children's lives were better than theirs. The Romans brought with them goods and knowledge that they never would have had without them, they made it possible, for the first time in history, to travel to other lands in relative safety and to communicate and trade with the people that lived there.

The sense of right and wrong that you speak of is a contemporary construct that goes far beyond the generally altruistic principles of fairness and equality, that was forcefully imposed on people by religions in order to steal their stuff, destroy their culture, and expand the church's power.

If we had followed the Roman model in subjugating South America, for example, instead of the craven looting and servitude that we did impose, and which in fact is the pre/post-Roman model of conquest, or better yet, if we had just left them alone, your argument would have more weight, IMO.

[Joe for Clark]

90. You don't ever have to agree with me.

I am an opninionated asshole.

I just know war a little - good post.

Joe

[Greyhound]

94. Thanks, I must say that this whole thread, in general, has been a model of the kind of thoughtful,

civil, and enjoyable exchange of ideas and points of view that we rarely see on DU, and never see anywhere else.

Maybe it's the late hour, maybe it's just the serendipitous mixture of writers, maybe the subject line just didn't inspire the all too common mud fight, but whatever caused it I'd like to know what it is, because this has been great, Thank you.
:kick:

[Joe for Clark]

96. You just did a good job getting your point thru.

It is very late.

Thank you!!

You made me feel a whole lot better about this.

Joe

[Greyhound]

95. Only one Recommendation? WTF, get with it people. n/t

[Cascadian]

97. This Titanic is about to hit the iceberg....

It's too late to avoid it I am afraid. But at least the band will play on.


John

[mloutre]

103. Get a grip. And read this post, too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x546894

(It's not my words there, it's those of a blogger from Baghdad.)

All this reflexive auto-backpatting is a bit much, imho.

But that's just one guy's opinion. YMMV.

[Tinksrival]

108. Hi Joe

Look at you starting this long thread. I still have hope for America but I'm afraid we need a reality check. Our political system is broke and needs fixing. It needs strong and couragous leadership to make much needed changes, and I'm not sure we can get that with our current system.
I read an interesting article and I was curious what you thought.

Dream On America

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6857387/site/newsweek/

Hope you guys are doing well! Did Troy make his flight? I hope so!

Wendy

Clark '08

[Bucky]

109. We won't get a "do over" on the support we had after 9/11

Life is fully of second chances. But if you win the lottery and then blow it all on blow and babes, you don't get the "free capital" back (understanding of course that that "free" political capital from 9/11 actually came at the cost of 3000 lives).

But yes, countries get second chances. Sixty years after the war, phrases like "I liked it better in the original German" keep the memory of Hitler's Germany alive. Yet what country better exemplifies the character of responsible world citizenship than today's Germany?

So yes, we'll have years and years and years to undo the damage Bush has done. The bad news is that's how long it'll take.

[LeftishBrit]

112. A non-American's (British) points of view here:

(1) I admire the Americans in very many ways. I wouldn't bother to be here if I didn't.

(2) I have enormous respect and admiration and gratitude to the memory of FDR. And of course to all the troops who fought against Hitler and his allies. (Very important personally to me, as I am of Jewish descent.)

(3) As others have pointed out, lots of countries were involved in the war, and involved in the defeat of Hitler. Britain was involved in the war before either the USA or the Soviet Union. But I think there is little point in arguing about which countries had more of a role. The countries were allies. If they had wasted too much time on arguing about who was better, or who had a greater role, then the outcome might have been horribly different.

(4) There is a difference between a country's people and its governments, especially in countries like Russia that are unfortunate enough never to have had real democracy. Russia has been culturally advanced but mired in various forms of political disaster for many, many years. The fact that Stalin was pure evil as an individual and leader, does not negate the sacrifices made by millions of Russians in the war.

(5) Countries and people change. A lot has changed in 60 years. Germany has improved immeasurably, to give an extreme example. American governments change regularly. Bush was born in 1946, and should not get a free pass on anything, because of the achievements of FDR, or the sacrifices of the American troops before he was even born.

(6) Any country has the right to a 'do-over' and none should ever be condemned to permanent hatred because of one or more evil actions of its past government. But sometimes - or ultimately always? - the best 'do-over' ultimately consists of abandoning the ambition of empire; the desire to have excessive influence on other countries. I'm thinking here of my own country. I think one of Britain's best decisions was to give up empire, and one of the worst things about Tony is that in a sense he cannot fully accept this decision, though it was largely made before he was born. Ultimately, I think America will need to make the same decision.