I am out for a few weeks.

[Joe for Clark]

Kids 3/2, got his vacation and that is it for me.

I am trying to say - it is so much worse than appears. The stakes are so much higher - and we have nothing to win at this point.

Just something to lose.

They do really bad things now - they will cut your scalp at the back of your head and literally peal your face off. That is happening. These people should not be alive. Why are they??

This isn't a war -I don't know what the hell it is - but you don't fight a war with aything so held back. Didn't we learn that from Viet Nam - wasn't that the lesson? - was to me.

You go to war - it better be total or don't go at all.

I am just a 19th century history student - but if I was any good it will break there in the north- in a souteast swath between the border towns - Mosul to Kirkuk.

That is where we would go to cause trouble. And they appear pretty smart to me.

Joe

[Laurier]

1. Yes, it is horrible

So horrible that you are planning to be off on vacation with your family while Rome burns.

I'm teasing, of course.

Enjoy your vacation :)

DU will be here when you return, and the world will not cease to exist in the interim. Have fun!

[Joe for Clark]

4. That is funny.

Have a good time man.

Joe

[TomInTib]

2. We have already caused enough trouble, Joe...

You can try to sweep it up anyway you want.

Ain't gonna work.

You cannot sweep up mayonnaise or mercury.

The resistance is liquid, man.


You take care and have a big time, Joe.

Tom

[Joe for Clark]

5. Mayonnaise and Mercury-

That is an oldie -

Kids home - and he can't get killed for at least three weeks.

I am happy as a pig in shit.

You do well Tom!

Joe

[Monkeyman]

3. Vacation you don't need no friging Vacation LOL

Stay safe see ya soon

[Joe for Clark]

6. You too -

And - I think I wigged out a few times - I know I did.

I am not the vet you are. I just know what happens to guys 10-20-30 years after the fact.

But I get three weeks off -

SO - I am cool.

joe

[joshcryer]

7. Don't let the pessimism get you down. :)

Take care. Hope Clark runs. :)

[sandnsea]

8. 539,129 tons of bombs

"..Laos (2,093,300 tons), Cambodia (539,129 tons), and North Vietnam (539,129 tons) added up to about five times the tonnage that the US dropped on Germany in World War II.."

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/history/FacultyPages/EdMoise/limit7.html

If the lesson you learned was that we had one hand tied behind our back and weren't allowed to fight - then you bought ANOTHER right wing pile of bullshit.

Just like the bullshit I'm hearing now, the rationalization to bring the troops home - "our troops have done what they were sent to do", as if there was anything for them to do in Iraq in the first place.

I'm sorry your son is in that mess. But one of the big reasons we are there is because too many people learned the wrong lesson of Vietnam, and the one you cite is at the top of the list.

The lesson we were supposed to learn is to NEVER fight wars of choice.

[Joe for Clark]

9. Clemson really does suck - I'd say that.

I went to school in California - where things are Normal??

WHat is bullshit to you- what do you know about war - tell me??

You tell me - what is the right lesson of Viet Nam - I really want to know.

Joe

[sandnsea]

10. Not that we didn't bomb them enough

I can sure as hell tell you that.

[sandnsea]

11. Oh, and facts are facts

It doesn't matter whether they're posted on a Clemson web site or any other university web site in the world.

[Joe for Clark]

13. Not to me = Clemson waswalways shit-

Clemson - followed only by SMU - they both suck.

Let me understand - can their graduates actually get out of a wet paper bag??

I doubt it.

Yeah - that stupid.

Joe

[sandnsea]

14. Take your pick

The fact that we dropped more bombs on Southeast Asia than Germany doesn't change based on what server its sitting on.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=bombs+dropped+vietnam&btnG=Google+Search

The problem with Vietnam was not that we were limited in the war that was fought. Bombings, burning villages, burning food supplies. What more could we have done?

[Joe for Clark]

15. I know - my school Uof R- good school.

Ucla -Usc -good schools.

SO - tell me - what do you know of Viet Nam - pretty big jump, aint it.

ABout equal to the jump you made in that post.

Joe

[sandnsea]

16. Stick to the facts

We dropped more bombs on SE Asia than we did on Germany during WWII. That war wasn't winnable militarily either. What's so hard to admit about that?

[Joe for Clark]

17. Ok -

Well, we sure beat the hell out of Germany, huh??

If not - how many more people did we have to kill to WIN IT??

You know??

Joe

You know what a dead body really looks like- do you??

DO not tell me about Viet Nam - one way or the other - you have no clue.

Joe

[sandnsea]

18. supreme arrogance

You've learned the lesson that the neocons learned - "we weren't allowed to fight" - and you want to tell me I've got no clue.

Enjoy your trip. I'm fed up with this particular Vietnam delusion. Bye.

[Joe for Clark]

19. Vietnam delusion - tell me how old are you man.

Let me guess - not old enough to worry about a lottery number -about right??

If that is so - do not do this again - some of us are.


I really only care about the dumb kids - really.

All the military things in my family - all the shit - don't matter to me.

I just see american kid's faces in my mind.

And they all look the same to me. Young and stupid.


Joe

[sandnsea]

20. Pssht

What difference does it make? You don't have any more claim on this country than anybody else. Lots of people put their lives on the line to keep this country safe and the people free. And there's lots more ways to be destroyed than just physically too.

[Joe for Clark]

21. Maybe that is true -

A lot of those idiots that put their lives on the line - they were my family.


But other than that -

I guess there other ways to get destroyed -


But who is counting?? Do you understand what is going on here - don't you get it??

Joe

[sandnsea]

22. Only your family???

Wow. More arrogance. You don't think anybody else's family put their life on the line for the benefit of people in this country???

I most certainly get what's going on. Arrogant might make right bastards have taken us off the cliff. Enabling their delusions from past wars guarantees they will continue to sell new versions of bullying foreign policy to get us into future wars. Consequently I'm not going to smile and nod when I hear bullshit about these past wars. I'm done with it.

[Joe for Clark]

23. You get carried away with yourself- don't you.?

Look - dad and his generation - they commanded in the other war.

My brothers did the deal in the last war -

But man, my kid is getting the snot knocked out of him now.

I will ask you one last time- what do you know about war that we should know -

WHAT??

I am so listening -


Joe

[sandnsea]

24. History is History

Did we or did we not drop more bombs on southeast Asia than we did on Germany? How can that be called "held back"? Those are the facts. Period.

You ARE NOT the only one who has had family serve in any given war. And NOBODY should have to line up their credentials before they're allowed to speak in this country. It's BULLSHIT.

[librechik]

12. umm...have a nice vac

sounds like you really need it!

It's simple--they are a criminal gang of Norman dynastic pirates, who loot various parts of the world, and we let them take over our country.They did it illegally, so there is no legal redress. They are looting around the world at will (just like the 11th century, same people) Hey, they learned torture from the folks in Mosul back in the original crusade, so the circle returns. It isn't a real war cuz war spoils the spoils as it were, at least nowadays.So we allow just enough violence to turn things into chaos and intimidate the locals so they don't re-organize. We want to keep the oil and the territory. Bush won't admit it, that's why everything is in paralysis right now. He has been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and no one can make him drop the damn cookie. No one has the power to arrest a guy with all the nukes in the world.

So, imagine you're a humble villager and these guys with swords and armies of brutal goons come marching through, burning and pillaging and looting? What do you do?

You re-invent the enlightenment. It's bound to happen, cuz the pendulum has swung out so far to the right, whne it comes back the other way it's going to be awesome.

That's why I continue on even though all is lost. Front row seat at the apocalypse and all that. Pass the popcorn.And careful with the buzzed posting, comrade!

:loveya:

[scarletwoman]

25. I just have to tell you, I LOVE your post! It made me smile, it made me laugh.

SO right on! And said so trenchantly! Brava!

:yourock:
sw

[librechik]

26. praise from sw is a precious gift

right back at you!

[CTyankee]

27. Brava, indeed! What a great exposition!

"And still it moves" said Galileo (or so we think). As a student of the Humanities I agree with your thesis. It is the only hope we can have left in these times.