Taxpayers last to benefit from stadiums

[proud2BlibKansan]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8O60R0O0.htm

The Associated Press March 29, 2007

Taxpayers last to benefit from stadiums

WASHINGTON

Taxpayers don't benefit from multimillion-dollar publicly subsidized
professional sports stadiums, residents from New York, Detroit and Seattle
told lawmakers at hearing Thursday.

"We have terrible budget deficits as a result of having professional
sports," said Frank Rashid, a Detroit resident who waged an unsuccessful
10-year campaign to stop construction of a new Detroit Tigers Stadium at
Comerica Park.

At a House subcommittee hearing on domestic policy, Rashid said promises of
economic development and new jobs didn't materialize from the stadium built
with public and private money in 2006.

He maintained that 30 schools are being closed, residents can't get quick
responses when they dial 911 for emergency help, and there are fewer police
and fire fighters on the streets.

more . . .

[Bozita]

1. No shit! ... Recommended

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. In the winter, when the trees are bare, I can stand on the playground at my school

and see Arrowhead Stadium, where The Chiefs play. Taxpayers in the county built that multi kazillion dollar stadium. And The Chiefs want a roof on it, paid for by the taxpayers of course.

When I go in the 93 year old school building and hear that boiler fire up, I have a real hard time understanding how taxpayers allow their children to go to school in buildings like ours while a pro sports team has a beautiful stadium like Arrowhead at taxpayer expense.

[Bozita]

10. Amen! ... Amen! ... Amen!

Taxes for entertainment.

Bake sales for schools.

WTF?

[silverojo]

17. Let the pro players buy the damn stadium if they want it so badly

Look at the AZ Cardinals. Biggest losers ever, brand-new stadium, and for what?

Not one dime of taxpayer money should go into pro sports stadiums. It should all go to services to benefit the taxpayers!

[LuckyLib]

70. The Chiefs want a roof? Our Twin Cities Metrodome HAS a roof, but

it's not good enough, and now the Vikings and the Twins want new stadiums. Open air. And, of course, the multimillionaire owners want the taxpayers to foot the bill. :banghead:

[Ron Green]

2. "22 men in desperate need of rest, and 50,000 people in desperate need of exercise"

[riverdeep]

77. Ain't this the truth.

[EVDebs]

3. I heard that the rental car system is often jacked up w/fees in order to pay for stadiums

and that's why this one source of direct payment for stadiums is kind of 'hidden', the tourists mainly pay more. Bed taxes etc. also.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. I believe that is how they are paying for our new arena here

http://www.visitkc.com/meeting_planner/whats_new/index.cfm?page=sprint_center.htm

[Bozita]

14. That's $14,200 per seat. How long, how many events to pay it off?

We already know the answer.

Never!

But then, it'll be time to build another stadium/arena.

The current one just won't do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Yes this one is replacing another one that is just fine

Its problem? It isn't downtown. :wow:

[Syrinx]

4. University Of Alabama recently did a $100 million upgrade...

To the athletic facilities. And it was done with private money. It seems odd that a public university uses private money for facilites, yet private business uses public money.

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Pro sports teams are better extortionists

[Syrinx]

9. And college sports are more fun anyway

But I might be biased, since the only pro sports in Alabama are minor-league baseball and arena football. ;)

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. We have both pro and college sports here

and college sports are more affordable. I am also willing to bet there are more KU Jayhawks fans here than Chiefs fans.

[kath]

63. Well, college football is really minor-league football, and college basketball minor-league Bball.

Methinks the NFL and NBA should run their own damned minor-league systems, and the universities should spend their energy on EDUCATION (which is *supposed* to be their mission, no?) and get out of the big-bucks sports business.

[RL3AO]

65. You said it your self "big-bucks"

CBS has paid 1 billion dollars for the NCAA Tournament. Plus, college athletics have been around since there was college. Do you high schools to get rid of sports too?

[misanthrope]

71. In Alabama, those thoughts would elicit horror**nm

**

[Syrinx]

73. why don't you try to constructively change the political climate in Alabama?

Instead of taking continual public pisses on it?

The departed spirit of K-99 wants you to make Alabama a better place. ;)

[misanthrope]

83. Where's your sense of humor?...

...Don't you think people here are just a tad bit obsessed with college football? I can point you to plenty of guys who played at both Auburn and Alabama that will say off the record that people here go way overboard with it and the fans, in a lot cases, ruin it with their mania.

And the only ways I can think of to truly and effectively better Alabama all deal with the predominant culture and that would entail scattering the current residents to the four winds and starting over from scratch. That's just a bit much for one person to tackle.

[Syrinx]

84. sounds a bit like the Ann Coulter sense of humor

"Let's invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." Same thing.

You're from Alabama, and are surely aware that there are plenty of liberals here. We're just a bit outnumbered... for now. I can assure you that the anti-Alabama screeds that you specialize in aren't helping the cause in any way. (Though, I concede that random message board posts have little real-world effect anyway.)

Sure people love Alabama football. Other people love Auburn football. Other people love Notre Dame football, or Ohio State, or USC, or Oklahoma, or Arizona State.

Maybe what you say about the former players is true, but I could make similar assertions about any topic, using "off the record" and unverifiable sources.

I think it would be illiberal to eliminate college athletics, in that it would eliminate one possible path to future wealth for an albeit small sample of underprivileged, young athletes, as well as eliminating the source for millions of dollars in academic scholarships for non-athletes.

Elitism is a hateful and disappointing thing, especially when it flows from a self-professed liberal.

[misanthrope]

85. Gimme a break...

...I don't know you from Adam but you come across as really, really young.

And to compare anything I said with Coulter's recommended genocide is a bit much. Nobody said anything about killing anyone.

Son, I grew up in the latter stages of the Civil Rights Era and have seen who stood and who didn't when it counted the most and why they did what they did.

My father has been neck deep in this state's politics since right after he left college. I've seen and heard the backroom stories, the mechanizations of power and persuasion and not much of it is flattering. I know exactly of which I speak and this state isn't as far along as its leaders would like the populace to believe.

You can live your life in delusion that the imbalance caused by the obsession with collegiate football doesn't hurt anything, or that the population is ready to spring into action for progressive causes with just a little nudge. If that helps you hold your head a little higher pretending yet another Confederate holiday isn't occurring or that decriminalization of "miscegenation" wasn't barely ratified just a couple of years ago, then go right ahead. Whatever gets you through the night...

[Syrinx]

86. I don't know you either, but you have a lot of hate

Why you hate sports just doesn't make sense. There's no down-side. Academics gets money from athletics, not the other way around. And fuck some pretend Confederate holiday I don't even know about.

Can I help you?

[Syrinx]

72. speaking (unofficially) for the University Of Alabama

We don't spend money on sports, we make it.

(UA President Robert) Witt, whose salary is $487,620, said Alabama is one of the few NCAA Division I-A programs that consistently generates a substantial operating surplus. "Not a penny of state money is used to pay salaries or support the program," he said.

This school year, the athletic program is directly funding $1 million in academic scholarships.

Witt said freshman enrollment is up 63 percent since he got to Tuscaloosa, and admissions scores have improved. The president is also substantially increasing faculty pay.

Last fall, 82 National Merit Scholars enrolled, ranking Alabama 11th among the more than 600 public universities in the nation, Witt said. "A strong sports program is an invaluable asset in getting us on the radar screen of gifted students."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/colleges/uta/stories/033107dnspoutafeat.37dd229.html

[Suich]

8. I'm still paying for the Kingdome in Seattle and

that got imploded in 2000!

:)

[Syrinx]

11. at least we got some cool video

:)

[ComerPerro]

13. speaking of which, video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m0dVWfSuK0

[Syrinx]

15. excellent!

Added to my queue of youtubes to download while I sleep. Man, I wish I could get broadband. :)

[Oeditpus Rex]

12. But civic pride makes up for that

:sarcasm:

Like the "pride" a life-long fan feels when he can no longer afford to go to a ball game because even though his club has a spankin'-new stadium it didn't pay for, there's still that little matter of an annual payroll of $100 million or so.

[Lasher]

16. Sounds like Junior's scam with the Texas Rangers

He bought in as a part owner for $605K. He and his cronies got the city of Arlington, TX to increase sales taxes so they could finance a new stadium for the Rangers. Then Junior cashed in for $12 million. Free enterprise working for a better America.

[Nay]

19. Not only that, but Bush's name allowed the group to steal a bunch

of taxpayers' homes by eminent domain to build the stadium, thus screwing some taxpayers TWICE.

[cosmicdot]

56. for more info on the Rangers' deal ...

Thomas O. Hicks
http://www.utwatch.org/utimco/hicks.html

The Governor's Sweetheart Deal
http://www.bushfiles.com/bushfiles/SweetheartDeal.html

The Texas Rangers Connection
http://www.utwatch.org/utimco/rangers.html

UTIMCO
http://www.utwatch.org/utimco/

an investment fund was established at the University of Texas .. UTIMCO ... possibly similar to the Harvard Management Corp. which had invested money in Bu$h's Harken Energy while Pug Winokur (former enron director; DynCorp mercernaries in Columbia S.A. company) was on the Harvard board ...


~snips~

After Ann Richards was defeated in 1994 by George W. Bush, Hicks shifted his heavy donations to Bush. Hicks gave $146,000 to Bush in both of his gubernatorial campaigns. In return for the gratitude, Bush approved legislation to form UTIMCO in 1995. Hicks had used a full-court press strategy, spending between $50,000 to $110,0001 in lobbying and using with the powerful lobbying team Vinson and Elkins, who represents several Texas business interests, to achieve this dream.

Conveniently for both men, Bush appointed Hicks as the first chair to UTIMCO, which began the tradition of tit-for-tat management and good-ol' boy favoritism that has defined the relationship between UTIMCO and Texas politics since. In 1998, Hicks would make Bush a multi-millionaire by purchasing the Texas Rangers. In addition, Hicks' company, Hicks, Muse, Tate, & Furst, Inc., is now Bush's number 4 career patron. The company is still donating to the GOP; Rick Perry has received $283,481 from Hicks Muse, with another $176,500 coming from Charles Tate . Hicks's brother Steven has also thrown in $138,516.

For several years, UTIMCO acted in secrecy under the protection of the Texas Attorney General, which facilitated the process of questionable investments in return for political favors. UTIMCO invested some $525 million in assets run by Hicks associates and other major GOP donors. After the Houston Chronicle exposed such insider dealings in a 1999 article, Tom Hicks resigned from the board.

Investments made by UTIMCO under the watch of Tom Hicks include the following, as reported by the Multinational Monitor, Texas for Public Justice, and Bushwatch.net:

* The Carlyle Group: the Group's partners include Bush Sr. and ex-Secretary of State James Baker III.
* Maverick Capital Fund: Major project of the Wyly brothers.
* Bass Brothers Enterprises: The Bass family donated $210,000 to Bush's campaign through PAC's, with $273,000 from themselves, and they invested $25 million in Bush's Harken Oil venture.
* Kohlberg Kravis Roberts: This corporate buyout firm would soon join Hicks Muse in a $1.5 billion takeover of Regal Cinemas.
* Evercore Partners: Evercore and Hicks joined forces for a $900 million television buyout.
* American Security Partners: Landed a contract with UTIMCO months after selling several radio stations to Tom Hicks.
* Wand Partners and Inverness Management: Firms run by friends of Tom Hicks, such as former frat brother Bruce Schnitzer.


Another notable company not covered by the Multinational Monitor was an investment in Capstar Broadcasting, run by R. Steven Hicks- Tom's brother. The brothers have had strong interests in national communications companies, and some deals that have been proposed (some sought after by trustbusters) have reached the billions. Clear Channel Communications/AMFM (owned by Hicks Muse with Tom Hicks as the vice-chair) is the largest chain of radio stations in the U.S. Hicks Muse also owns the second largest chain in the U.S., Chancellor Media.

[Lasher]

75. Thanks for the good scoop

The older I get the more I realize that the people who get the most money don't really do a damn thing to earn it. Junior is a perfect example of a total loser, propped up by a dynasty.

[EST]

18. The terrible and tragic background for these astounding events,

is that people are being scammed and either don't know it or are comfortable with it as long as a lot of other people are getting scammed, as well.

The same b.s. happened here in St. Louis, with years and years of the greedy manipulators, in collusion with the leaders, convincing the public that the new stadium would be a financial bonanza for everybody within a hundred miles. Not so, in practice.

At Scott air base, base housing was adequate but not outstanding and had a long history of complaints from its temporary occupants. Millions of dollars were spent on upgrading and adding facilities, including major improvements to the housing itself.
During that time the wild hares of local government decided that a magnificent new joint use jet terminal and airport was just the thing the area needed, as an attempt to attract the bulk of the St. Louis airport business. A requirement of the new airport was leveling and removing the base housing that had just had many millions of taxpayers' funds spent on it.

This under utilized facility still sits there, a sprawling airport behemoth on the Illinois prairie, billions invested, and no one particularly interested in using it, due to its remoteness in relationship to St. Louis area business.

The scamming goes on and, yes, these public giveaways to big business were instituted primarily by republicker pushers and shakers.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. And since you all in St Louis got state funding to pay for your stadiums,

it's only fair that KC gets state funding for theirs too!!

:sarcasm:

Isn't is just mind boggling?

[EST]

54. You betcha!

And if we all get together and take in each others' washing, we'll all get rich.

[youngdem]

20. Well duh, the mark isn't SUPPOSED to profit

[annabanana]

24. BEST response yet!

Thank you!

[wilt the stilt]

21. MIke Lupica wrote a book about this

If the owners had to pay a major renovation would be a paint job.

[no_hypocrisy]

22. Replacement for Yankee Stadium in the Bronx was sold to New Yorkers

not only as an "improvement" but a benefit to the Bronx and its faltering economy. (The present Yankee Stadium will likely be destroyed.) Steinbrenner is building a new temple with less seats for the "common" Yankee fan and with sky boxes for high rollers. Restaurants and bars and small businesses selling Yankee memorabilia will be gone by the time everything is said and done.

BTW it took forever to get a deal where Steinbrenner was going to pick up the tab. As expected he initially wanted the City to pay for his stadium.

[annabanana]

23. It's time for the Sports cartels to pay their own way..

Let the market decide. No more tax breaks for childrens games. (not a big sports fan here)

[Rage for Order]

52. Time for the art cartels to pay their own way too

How long does it take a museum to pay for itself? How about an opera house or symphony hall? No more tax breaks for people who splash colors on canvas or chip at rocks with chisels! Why do stadiums have to completely pay for themselves? Large numbers of people enjoy watching a given city's sports team play, and as such they are deriving taxpayer benefit by watching their team play. We don't ask city parks to pay for themselves.

[sendero]

25. I've always gotten a kick...

...out of the notion that a team of city councilpersons could "get over" on a crew of shark business persons. Whether it be tax abatements for industry, sports stadiums, whatever, they NEVER win, not ever.

After all, the businessmen are negotiating for their own money, the government for someone else's. And frankly, in today's world you don't get the best and brightest working in local and state government.

[Bill McBlueState]

26. There should be a "team has to win" clause

At least in Arrowhead, the Chiefs have managed to put together one of the better home-stadium win-loss records in the NFL. So people in KC who like the Chiefs are getting something in return.

But then you have the situation in Pittsburgh, where the baseball team got a new stadium in 2001 and hasn't had a winning record since. It's especially irritating that the major reason the Pirates don't win is the owners' refusal to spend a reasonable amount of money on payroll.

There should be a clause in the stadium agreement that the tax subsidy is annual. If the team has a winning record, they get it. If they have a losing record, they don't get the tax subsidy and it comes out of the owners' pockets instead.

[Deja Q]

28. And do what the Minnesota Twins did...

Strike, get booed at, play very mediocre for years, then get what they want, and that's when they start playing good again.

Good grief. I'm talking about sports. :crazy:

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. But The Chiefs haven't won a Super Bowl in 37 years!!

So they need a roof and a lot of expensive improvements at Arrowhead! That will make them win the Super Bowl!!

:sarcasm:

Funny you mentioned Pittsburgh, since Kansas City tried to woo The Penguins for their new arena. And guess what? Pittsburgh is dangling money to keep the Penguins there!!

[Bill McBlueState]

51. that's what's so odd about the Chiefs

Strong fan base, one of the better regular season records over the past ten years... but no Super Bowl to show for it. I can see how that would be infuriating to the local taxpayers.

[Deja Q]

27. The sky is also blue unless there is a thunderstorm, in which case the sky is dark gray.

:7

Sorry, when politicians support folks who can pay to give players tens of millions of dollars (or more!) per contract, they sure as hell can pay for their own building to run around in too.

Especially when we need more firemen, police, teachers, et cetera...

Besides, why are more Republicans in favor of this sort of thing than Democrats? What's going on isn't just WELFARE (a concept Republicans hate), it's WELFARE for folks who are already standing on their own two feet and can afford every luxury in the world. Including their players, many of which act as if they're above the law and laugh off every $5k, $10k, $20k fine they get for doing something that would land normal people in jail with a $500k bail. (Now think of Randy Moss, the Viking's escapades in general (that riverboat one is my favorite!), and how we're supposed to pay for a stadium - Governor Tim Pawlenty talks about responsibility and being responsible - so why does he openly support such filth who, unlike the rest of us, don't see fit to act like grown-ups?! His contradictions boggle the mind and political affiliation has no prejudice from me; anyone supporting taxpayer-funded stadiums is out of touch.)

If the government and corporate folks have their understandable whine about Americans being too fat, let THEM pay for gyms that we can all use. That way we can all run around as well, get fit, and give the employers a reason to hire us again. :D Seems a fair tradeoff; if the government wants to give rich people something for their rich snotty degenerate players free room and board, it's only fair similar accommodations happen for the rest of us.

[alarimer]

43. welfare for the poor is bad; welfare for the rich is GOOD

Didn't you get the memo? :sarcasm:

I mean just look at Exxon-Mobile. Those poor souls wouldn't last a day without government subsidies, what with gas prices being so low.

[Junkdrawer]

29. In Pittsburgh, they Built TWO stadiums: One for the Pirates, One for the Steelers....

My property taxes went up 40%.

The State said: "Allow us to build casinos, and we'll give you property tax relief."

So...they're building the casinos, but guess where they're going to spend the proceeds?

That's right: A new arena for the Penguins...

:mad:

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. LOL That is Kansas City's fault you know

They tried to get The Penguins here for our new downtown arena. For some reason, they thought that a hockey team would be a big hit here in the middle of the country, where we have maybe a couple dozen hockey fans.

[PA Democrat]

38. And if you recall, there was a ballot referendum about

using tax dollars to build these stadiums and the referendum FAILED to pass. But politicians went and did it anyway, after all who cares what the people think? What's sad is that the ticket prices are so outrageously expensive that most of the people who are funding these new stadiums with their tax money can't afford to take their families to a games.

[JackDragna]

30. This is one thing that drives me bonkers.

I hate, hate, HATE the lies spewn by sports owners and the rabid fans about how the stadiums are a civic joy and how much money they make for everyone. Anyone who thinks so should read "Field of Schemes," or go to the Field of Schemes website. It's all a ploy to separate people from their tax money. The only way a city should finance a sports stadium is if the stadium owners give every damned penny back in a reasonable time frame, say 5 years. Otherwise, they can stick it.

[proud2BlibKansan]

36. The Chiefs meet their budget with TV revenues alone!!

Everything else is gravy. $20 for parking (maybe higher next year), high priced concessions and souvenirs, unbelievably expensive tickets - all those are profits. Before they even play a pre-season game, The Chiefs are in the black. Yet they manage to hoodwink the community into believing that tax payers HAVE TO fund stadium improvements.

I know very few people anymore who have season tickets. I know very few people who can even afford to go to a Chiefs game.

The taxpayers here get screwed twice. First by paying for the damn stadium and then by being ripped off when they go to a game. And you know when they get mad? When they talk about the fact that only the taxpayers in the county where the stadium is located have been made to pay for the stadium. This is 5 county metropolitan area, and they want ALL the counties to pay for Arrowhead. So they want MORE taxpayers ripped off!!

[eppur_se_muova]

55. Thanks for the link, looks informative.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/

[blondeatlast]

35. No big surprise to me, but if it's in Business Week, it may open some official civic eyes.

I'd love to see the day when local citizens declare a boycott of big businesses that donate to build these stadiums with taxpayer money.

If the bizzes want to buikd--fine and dandy. But not with my money, TYVM.

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. What big businesses are you referring to?

Other than the teams themselves, I don't know what big businesses you mean.

[Telly Savalas]

42. I'm not sure, but there were no teams behind the Sprint Center.

I've shown up a little late to have a clear picture of who stands to profit off of this "build it and they will come" nonsense, but somebody's gotta be making a buck.

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Sprint is losing money big time

This is their world headquarters and everyone in Kansas City knows someone who used to work for Sprint and got laid off. They just made another round of layoffs a few weeks ago. But they somehow found the money to help fund this unnecessary arena; enough money to get the damn thing named after them. I have no idea how Sprint will profit from this arena. It seems like mighty expensive advertising to me.

And other than Sprint, I have no idea what big businesses might profit from the arena. Well, maybe the guy who owns the parking lot across the street, but I wouldn't exactly call him big business.

Maybe I just don't get it. :shrug:

[blondeatlast]

44. Whatever corporation named the AZ Cardinals stadium this week, Chase Bank, US Airways for starters.

They put up huge bucks for naming rights; in fact, there are bidding wars.

The taxpayers aren't getting that money; the teams are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. But how do they profit from having their name on a stadium?

[blondeatlast]

49. How could they not? Advertising, PR, oodles of cushy box seats, etc.

My BIL is the vice-president of a local corporation that still benefits big time from being associated with local teams. In the end, his company profits way more than they expend. It may cost bundles in the short run, but in the end, it's damn cheap advertising.

My point is--go ahead an put "your corporate name here" but don't expect the taxpayers to help you out building a stadium that few can afford to attend more than a few times in their lives.

Stadium prices (including tickets, parking, refreshments, etc) are just (sorry) out of the ballpark for most families in this area.

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. So will we see an end here to the massive Sprint layoffs

once the arena opens?

I hear you on the financing. We can't afford to go to a Chiefs game and now the city is building an arena with no plans for a pro (or college) team to play in it!

[spanone]

40. Nashville TN gave about 300 million for Titans & stadium.

The city, although WE built the fucking stadium with our tax money, gets to use the stadium 3 or 4 times a year, yet WE have to maintain it. Horrendous bullshit business deal. P.S. Team gets all the naming rights money, conssesions, parking etc.

[proud2BlibKansan]

47. I don't think the taxpayers who paid for Arrowhead in KC EVER get to use it

So count yourselves lucky in Nashville. LOL

[newportdadde]

41. Its garbage, here in KC, Jackson County gets to fund stadiums that only JoCo can afford to go to.

That last vote in the fall was a joke. At least the stupid rolling roof didn't pass.

For those who don't live in KC let me explain how this works. Kansas City is partly in Kansas and partly in Missouri. The stadiums are in the Missouri part, in Jackson county. A large portion of the people who can actually afford to go to the games actually live in Kansas.. in Johnson county.

Johnson county is the place were all the upper middle class white yuppies fled to the past 30 years. This is where most of our dual wage earner, six figure income people run away too.

So all of in Jackson county in our infinite stupidity taxed ourselves so yuppies across the state line can go see football games of a looser team who hasn't been to a Super Bowl in 30 years.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. I am one of those 'yuppies' in Johnson County and I detest this argument

Why is it okay for ANY tax dollars to be spent on a multi kazillion dollar stadium? Does it somehow ease the consciences of Jackson County taxpayers to demand that residents in other metro counties also be forced to pay for a stadium the team could afford to build? Why are Johnson County residents the bad guys here?

FYI, I lived in Jackson County when the damn thing was built and I proudly voted AGAINST it.

[Kolesar]

53. Could use a few hundred million in Ohio to improve water pollution control

That would make our cities MUCH more attractive than three arenas full of bored businessmen talking on their cell phones.

[USA_1]

57. That Is Ever So True ...

... too bad that the Minnesota Dems always kissed up to the billionaire owners who always demand more corporate welfare stadiums. That is why St Paul has been nearly bankrupted as we were forced to pay for an unneeded pro hockey arena when there already had been a good one in Minneapolis. And now Hennepin County taxpayers will have to pay for a new baseball stadium because, again, the Democrats knuckle under to the wealthy elites along with their Republican allies.

Soon enough the taxpayers will have to fork over another billion for a new pro football stadium while millionaire players and billionaire owners profit at our expense.

WHY THE HELL DON'T MINNESOTA DEMOCRATS STAND UP AGAINST CORPORATE WELFARE????

[RL3AO]

59. Whats this world class hockey arena in Minneapolis?

That would have been better than the Xcel Energy Center?

[TheMightyFavog]

74. You talking about the Met? IIRC, that place was demolished when they built the Mall of America.

After the NorthStars Left there was NO NHL capacity arena in the Twin Cities.

[USA_1]

76. Try the Target Center ...

... I have seen Gopher puck matches there and the place is just fine. It is better than Madison Square Garden and the Nassau Coliseum in New York (I've been to both so I know). We did not need to waste millions in corporate welfare for Norm Coleman's puppet string masters and the expense has nearly bankrupted St Paul, MN.

[RL3AO]

80. Better than MSG? Yeah right.

The X was recently voted the best sports arena in the country by ESPN. It has also hosted an NHL all star game and will host the RNC. And I very well doubt that it has "bankrupted St. Paul". Show me some proof.

[SoCalDem]

58. Google: Curtis-Mathes Bush

When georgiepoo made a sweetheart deal for a satdium, he eminent-domained and ruined their company...

[cgrindley]

60. Bull pucky

I am a huge Yankees fan. I can see the stadium from my office window. I listen to the games on AM 880. I subscribe to Gameday for my computer. I watch the games on YES... even the next day re-runs. I go to about 10 games a year.

I will totally benefit from a new stadium. Baseball is cool and I can't wait.

I pay NY taxes.

[RL3AO]

61. I agree. Cant wait for the new Twins stadium.

[cgrindley]

62. It's a shame

the Twins will be playing in it!

ZING!

[RL3AO]

64. BTW...I hate the Yankees.

But I love all these ESPN experts picking the Twins to finish 4th in the AL Central. I've even heard a few talk about the Royals challanging the Twins for 4th.

[cgrindley]

66. Is there anything better than baseball?

I can hardly wait. Best luck to the Twins this year.

[RL3AO]

67. In Minnesota, hockey is up there. But I still prefer baseball.

[cgrindley]

68. I was a lifelong Canucks fan

I grew up in Victoria, BC, Canada. Lived a lot of years in BC, but I went off hockey when Todd Bertuzzi used the stick. The game just isn't the same game I remember. It's sad. I used to really love hockey.

[RL3AO]

69. Canucks fan? Now I really hate you.

[BlooInBloo]

78. Last? I didn't realize we were even in line at all! Fuck the Sonics - let em leave - greedy bastards

[riverdeep]

79. This is really a question of what

government services are considered necessary. Personally, I tend to go toward underestimating what functions are needed than going over. I am NOT a sports fan in any way, how grown men walking around in uniforms hitting a ball with a stick can generate so much fervor is beyond me. But, tell you sports fans what, I'll go without museums and public libraries-don't know about public parks-if you go without stadiums and their attendant costs. I think musuems could function in the private sector, albeit scaled down; and as for libraries, Americans don't read anyway. The only people I see in them are children during reading time, students doing an assignment, old people killing time, and vagrants.

[RL3AO]

81. It has so much popularity because...

IT BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER! What stopped wars and brought every city-state in ancient greek together? The olympics. What brings every country in the world together? The Olympics. What brings together entire states when your team is winning? Sports.

[libnnc]

82. Sidebar to this topic but it's interesting...

While vacationing in NYC last month, my SO and I met a couple from Scotland. Both ladies were really into soccer (football) and rugby. They LOVE rugby. Anyway, they said that all citizens of Scotland get to attend home games for free. No charge. Totally free.

I thought that was interesting. One more reason to want to live abroad...:(

Edit to add: I'm pretty sure they were talking about the national teams. Scotland Football and Rugby.