German official wants Travolta booted from TV show set to air tonight because he's a Scientologist.

[LiberalHeart]

http://newsgrinder.blogspot.com/2007/03/wanna-bet-on-whether-his-scientology.html

Sabine Weber, VP of Scientology in Germany, says, "I was shocked when I heard Mr. Oettinger attacking John Travolta because of his membership in the Church of Scientology. I find it embarrassing for our country to have a politician discriminate an international celebrity such as John Travolta because of his religious beliefs."

After years of relative quiet, the Church of Scientology has started what appears to be a new information offensive in Germany, opening new offices in major cities.

In January, the organization's German headquarters opened in the capital, Berlin, just around the corner from the German parliament.

Ever since, friendly young people have been fanning out in the German capital in an apparent attempt to win over passers-by, students or tourists to the teachings of the Church of Scientology. They are quick to point out they are "combating their discrimination" by established churches and authorities.

(Trying to remember what came outabout this during the Scooter trial. Didn't Scooter find time to meet with Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes about the treatment of Scientologists in Germany at a time when Scooter was claiming to have had so much on his plate he couldn't remember anything about who he talked to about the Plame mess?)

[blondeatlast]

1. Ah, but I like this, further down in the piece, someone gets it:

But here's what a spokesman for ZDF -- which will air "Wanna Bet?" as planned with Travolta as a guest -- had to say: "Mr. Travolta will appear, of course. To uninvite him from the show would have given the Church of Scientology an undesired attention and would have caused more damage than to have him on the show. Mr. Travolta's management has agreed that the actor will not talk about that controversial subject."

I've no sympathy for those perpetuating what I believe is a cult nor am I anything close to a Travolta fan, but I've seen Travolta on other shows and he doesn't mention a word about Scientology. I suspect that he is often given that caveat and at least for Travolta, his career matters more than his "religion." For that matter, so does mine--and I'm pretty religious.

[LiberalHeart]

2. I think you're right -- I don't recall Travolta pulling a Tom Cruise, promoting it....

Or going all arrogant like Tom did with Matt Lauer over meds for mental health.

[blondeatlast]

3. It could have happened, but I've never seen it or heard about it. nt

[smiley]

4. honestly

what makes scientology a cult? didn't christianity started as a cult, and it has managed to plant it's dogma in the brains of half the world. Nothing wrong with that I guess.:sarcasm:

[youngdem]

5. My religion professor in college said the only difference between a church and a cult is popularity

[hlthe2b]

9. interesting premise.... n/t

[WinkyDink]

22. I agree, to a large extent. But I also think a "religion", by definition, ought to have precepts and

a spiritual leader. Is THAT how Scientologists regard L. Ron Hubbard, who famously bet that he could begin a new religion?

All Scientology is, is an expensive self-help system.

[blondeatlast]

12. Well, I can walk away from my church with no repercussions anytime I so desire. I got inadvertently

caught up with a quasi-Scientology group and it was not so easy. I was hounded for quite some time until it was clear they weren't goung to get me. Mine was more the "Hollywood" Scientologists, there are harder core groups and they are not so nice.

Can we get back to the interesting topic at hand now?

Sorry, LH--I didn't mean for this thread to go off in another direction

[rebel with a cause]

18. You got killed for being a christian when it started

there are accusations that some have been killed/threatened to be killed for no longer being scientology member.

When I was a youngster, the scientology people were pushing L.R. Hubbard's ideas to the max. My father, a minister, received literature on it endlessly. They were recruiting people to spread their message and he was one of those that they wanted to join them. He thought they were all crazy. Then they began going door to door with their literature, just like the Jehovah witnesses did. The first time they came to our house, we let them in only to have my father throw them out when they began pushing their religion instead of only discussing it. After that, they were not allowed to enter. Today I treat all religious visitors the same. A polite greeting of "I am not interested" and then a shut door. I am my father's daughter, only more so. ;-)

[realisticphish]

23. Not really

Christianity is NOT A CULT. Yes, some sects may be considered as such, but the religion itself is not. Cults generally require large financial contributions, unwavering loyalty to a human leader, extreme and sometimes violent methods for retaining members, etc. Again, there are sects that are cults, and I suppose that the original group of Christians could vaguely be called a cult (though I would disagree with that), but the religion itself is just a belief.

[postulater]

8. Yeah, I'm with ya

I feel the same about the cult of Christianity.

[rebel with a cause]

17. Did you all forget his forgettable movie

Battlefield Earth: A Saga of the Year 3000 based on Hubbard's teachings about the space character Terl. Travolta takes his religion very serious and will push it in the right circumstances. The push is no in Europe now, and I imagine that is why he may be there. I don't support religious missionaries and I definately will not support or even defend scientology being exported to another country.

[karlrschneider]

28. I think Scientology is pretty much bullshit...like Southern Baptists, but I've met John Travolta

and he never brought it up. We talked airplanes. I liked him. And I think he's a decent actor/entertainer.
So sue me. ;-)

[juno jones]

6. May I reccomend: http//www.clambake.org/

These guys ain't your sweet persecuted christian cult. Rev. Moon is probably not even as ruthless as they are. Read up on these guys, they are not dumb and cuddly like Tom Cruise. They are far nastier than that. They have murdered before and their takeover of politics in certain FL cities is legendary...

[MadHound]

10. Unlike Christiany which has committed genocide,

And taken over entire countries. If we want to get into sheer numbers concerning death and destruction, the cult of Christianity is a hell of a lot worse than Scientology has ever been.

[philosophie_en_rose]

11. Scientology is not a religion. It's a sci-fi mafia.

It's a predatory lender that imprisons people in its own prisons. Scientology may not have killed as many people as various Christian groups, but neither did the Nazis. That doesn't make Scientology less of an insidious cult.

[MadHound]

14. And Christianity isn't a fantasy mafia?

As somebody stated upthread, the only difference between a cult and a religion is in the number of adherents and the amount of power it wields. Christianity has a large number of adherents with a great deal of power, thus it is given the respectable title of being a religion. Scientology doesn't have the number of adherents or the requisite power, therefore it is labeled as a cult. Moonies used to be demonized as a cult, but now that their membership is up, and they tread the corridors of power, they are now a "religion".

A pox on all of their houses for wreaking death and destruction in the name of some vague phantasmal force that even they are unsure about. I'm not an atheist, I do believe that there is a higher power of some sort. However we don't know what that power is, and I find it arrogant that there are those who not only profess to know the truth, but then insist that their "knowledge" must be spread by any means necessary. Faith, divinity, the Godhead I have no problem with. Organized religion, cults, what have you is what I have huge problems with, and frankly in my eyes Scientology is no worse, and no better than Christianity or any other religion or cult.

[rebel with a cause]

19. I agree with you on most of your post

but why should we sit by and let another of these ideologies grow untethered. Christianity is here and we have to continue battling the fanatic members of it. The Moonies were left to grow because we looked at them as only a cult, and now the scientologist are pushing for their piece of the world. When will we say it is enough, or will we continue accepting more mind washing groups because they are "no worse than the others". Frankly, I think we should stop encouraging these groups by our silence and start standing up to the fanatics of the world. Let everyone believe what they want, but why should we allow it to be pushed on others. (there is a difference even between preaching and holding members captive to brainwash them.)

[MadHound]

24. I'm still a firm believer in the First Amendment,

That people are free to worship how they choose, in whatever manner that they choose. Sure, it means that we have to put up with a lot of weirdness, but without it, our nation would be in a lot worse shape.

[rebel with a cause]

33. I believe in freedom of religion most of the time

but when a group is allowed to keep people in their confines until that person is "persuaded" to be one of them, that should not be protected by freedom of religion.

When we go to war because of difference of religion, that is not freedom of religion.

When we refuse someone their rights because they have a different religion, that act is not protected by freedom of religion.

JMHO :shrug:

[realisticphish]

20. Not at all

to be a cult, there is a long list of requirements including secrecy about true beliefs, and the requirement of great personal sacrifice. Some sects of Christianity may require that, but Christianity as a whole does not. I'm agnostic, so I have no horse in this race, I'm just saying.

[MadHound]

25. Umm, Christianity does fit that description,

And has for a long time. The thing is that it went mainstream aprox 1600 years ago, and managed to pull enough people into its grasp to appear "normal", whatever that is.

[realisticphish]

27. what great personal sacrifice would that be?

do they violently attack people who leave the church? Do they require massive amounts of money? Do they hide their beliefs from outsiders? No.

[MadHound]

30. In the broad spectrum of Christianity you can find all of those things and more

In both modern and historical times. Some do indeed attack those who leave the church, though I admit that is now relatively rare. But there are those who do attack those outside their belief system, physically(and even in large numbers), mentally, economically, and socially. Christianity controls a large segment of weath, not only as a whole, but even relatively minor branches control significant amounts of cash. Therefore, apparenly they require large amount of cash from the faithful. And yes, some branches of Chritianity hide their believes, in part, both formal and informal. One of the more despicable informal practices that is hidden by a large swath of Evangelicals is that of racism. I know of many Evangelical churches that simply will not let anybody in the door who is other than white.

[realisticphish]

31. as i said

SOME SECTS. Of course some sects are cults. But the larger, overall belief of "Christianity" cannot be termed a cult, as the main, common concepts of the religion do not require any of those things.

[MadHound]

35. Yes, but the sects that practice these things are actually the majority

Or a large minority of the entire population of Christianity. So what is the magic tipping point? 25%? 50%? 100%?

Sorry, but just because it is big doesn't mean it's still not a cult.

[karlrschneider]

29. A cult is any religion with little economic and/or political power.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.

[rman]

38. Got to have some way to deal with scammers,

who set up a religion for purposes other than religion.
We can't afford to be naive and think no-one would ever do such a thing.

[rman]

7. Scientology is not a religion under German law

They had a court case about it.

[Karenina]

26. The Germans smell a familiar stench

coming from Scientology and are quite proactive about it.

[Bucky]

34. See, there's a problem right there: "not a religion under law"

Governments don't have the right to tell their people, their bosses, what they believe is or is not a religion. That's statist and it's scary as hell. Yes, the Germans are all reasonable people now and we all they would never outlaw a "real" religion, like Islam or Ba'hai or Daoism. But what about Moonies? What about some of those California free love flavors of Hinduism? When I was a kid Hare Krshnas were generally considered a cult and not a "real" religion.

This stinks. Freedom of religion means freedom for everybody, not just for people you like.

[rman]

37. Governments have a right to say which organizations are tax-exempt,

and which not - otherwise any organization could claim to be a religion and be tax-exempt.

Still people are allowed to believe what they want; this is not an issue of separation of church and state.

[cgrindley]

41. but Hare Krishnas WERE a cult

between the lawsuits and the beheading and the racketeering...

You remember this don't you?

[blondeatlast]

13. So, should Travolta be allowed on the program or not? THAT's what the thread's

about.

I say he should be.

Sorry I used the word "cult."

[scrinmaster]

15. RIF.

Some German official doesn't want Travolta on the show, but that's just the opinion of that official. The show can't "uninvite" him.

But here's what a spokesman for ZDF -- which will air "Wanna Bet?" as planned with Travolta as a guest -- had to say: "Mr. Travolta will appear, of course. To uninvite him from the show would have given the Church of Scientology an undesired attention and would have caused more damage than to have him on the show. Mr. Travolta's management has agreed that the actor will not talk about that controversial subject."

[blondeatlast]

16. I quoted that in my original reply. nt

[blondeatlast]

21. RIF--the entire thread. To you, too

:eyes:

[EdwardM]

32. Scientology is a load of shit.

Xenu, the money grabbers, the E readers, L ron Hubbard, it all sucks. Only a fool would believe in it. That said, censorship and a nosy government is even worse. I strongly disagree with Germany's lack of freedom of religion for the "cults." I believe that people should be able to join any stupid group they want to. I really hope that John Travolta isn't stopped from speaking.

[Selatius]

36. Tax all churches. This way, Scientology can't hide net income from taxation.

I say remove the tax-exempt status of churches here. If churches want to inject themselves into politics or use religion as a shield against taxation, then the only way to end the abuse with these churches is to tax them. Germany should let Scientology into the country, but its churches should be taxed.

[murloc]

40. Tax Churches only if you want to empower them

and give them a seat in government.

Thats why churches ARE tax exempt now..so that we are seperate from government and hold no *official* power in government.

Once you start taxing churches, they'll demand and get (and rightly so if they pay taxes), a seat in government to go along with their tax money.

Now the natural response to my statement is "well they already wield alot of power in goverment" which is true. But it is unofficial power coming from the members of the church and their beliefs, as opposed to the church itself.

If you think churches wield power in America now, have them start paying taxes and you'll see that power increase 10 fold.

No. I prefer seperation of church/state.

[cgrindley]

39. No one should defend scientology

it is *not* a religion, and membership in it should be criminalized.

http://www.xenu.net