Ah NUTS. Your Printer Now Has to Be "Vista Compatible." Thanks for SCREWING Us Bill.

[The Cleaner]

So I was looking in a magazine last night and I came across an ad for pinters. The printers said, "Vista compatible." I thought, oh great, now we have to buy a new printer that is "Vista compatible?"

I know for a fact that any pre-Vista software will not work with Vista. Thanks to Bill Gates' monopoly, you have to go out and buy all new software that is "Vista compatible." Someone here on DU that is a retailer said he's received numerous returns because of this.

And now I find out many printers won't work with Vista either, unless they are "Vista enabled." For some, there are workarounds - but they take time and effort.

Ah great. I was considering buying a Vista laptop. But now I'm really not sure. I just plopped down $250 for a new HP printer I really like and is high quality (HP Business Inkjet 1200). But if I get Vista...well you know the damn story - headache after headache!

NOTE: To be fair, while these 2 excerpts are negative, others have said they didn't have as much trouble. However it still takes time and effort to go downloading updates, etc.

I bought a new Gateway Pc this past weekend. And it had Windows Vista premium. WOW I thought I was getting the latest and greatest software out. What I got was a big mess and a headache. NO LEXMARK PRINTERS will work with Vista. And I have 2 of them.That was told to me today by Simon @ Lexmark. That is not what I wanted to hear. They have had about 2 years to get their act togather.
I also have a few HP printers and they won't work with Vista either. Even with their "link fro vista drivers" LOL

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-12546_102-0.html?forumID=133&threadID=185969&messageID=2023579

I am a home buider and after installing Vista I fine non compatable issues with vista in installing hwd and software. Printers both used before vist and purchased afer issue of vista. My printer (photosmart 8250) HP purchased after and a canon s530d used with Xp prior to issue of vista. I am able work aroud the canon issue but not HP Can u help? It seems the home builder is left out cold.

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-12546_102-0.html?forumID=133&threadID=185969&start=15

[paparush]

1. You can turn all that sh*t off. You just won't be able to play hi-def content

through your computer.

[havocmom]

2. High Def makes no sense to an aging population that doesn't see well anyway

Color me not impressed by technology which does not accept the facts of life about humans ;)

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Uh - actually I'm fine with hi-def it is low tech books and mags

that cause me problems. Then again reading glasses are not exactly new technology.

[enki23]

183. er... how do you figure? pc's have been "hi def" for a long time now

and that has nothing whatsoever to do with printer drivers.

[whosinpower]

3. A friend of mine told me the same thing

He said - "STAY AWAY FROM VISTA!" for the exact reason you stated in article.

He also stated that he phoned microsoft and blasted them for this. Soooooo - it is not just an isolated case, but a blatent attempt to sell more stuff even if our existing "stuff" works well and we like it - if we upgrade to Vista, we have to get all new peripherals or go through the hassle of trying to make it work in a Vista environment.

[MissWaverly]

4. I will buy no new operating system until Bushco is gone

who knows what snooping bells and whistles it will come with as well.

[The Cleaner]

5. Vista comes chock full of spyware that snoops your computer.

And wasn't it said that Bill Gates worked with Homeland Security directly for this new version of Windows?

[originalpckelly]

8. Actually, I believe that was the NSA...

because they have powerful computers that can try and crack security.

It's sad however, that now we've had all these illegal spying programs, that we can't trust the NSA.

[MyNameGoesHere]

30. ALL OPERATING SYSTEMS

used in government must meet these security requirements, Don't feed into the lie.

[Recursion]

134. *shrug* My Linux kernel has NSA-written code

But it's also open-source so I can see what they put in there.

Fear not the penguin! Switch to an operating system you control.

[LibertyorDeath]

146. I bit the bullet and installed Linux Ubuntu yesterday

Wish I had done this sooner

Works great
Install was as smooth as silk
and the price.... free..Wow
comes with a truckload of applications
you can install if you want.

No going back now.

MS can take Vista and GFIS

Long live Open Source!



http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu/desktopedition

[Recursion]

150. Welcome to Freedom!!!!

I've been on Linux since '97 and I haven't looked back.

If you haven't already, make sure to uncomment the Debian repositories in /etc/apt/sources.list to get an even wider array of applications.

[LibertyorDeath]

155. Thanks for the Welcome and the Tip...

Since 97 wow I feel like such a newb
I'm really impressed with Ubuntu so far
there's lots to learn but well worth the effort.

Do you know how to open .rpm files in Ubuntu ?
Do I have to covert them or is it all about the Permissions
because try as I might I can't get .rpm files to open.

Thanks...

:toast:

[Recursion]

156. Sure, it's called alien

alien will unpack and install an rpm (or slackware tarball, or gentoo ebuild, etc.), but it's not entirely reliable because the dependency databases and versions are somewhat different, so you might have some issues. If you use synaptic (the graphical one) it's either in archivers or packagers (or view "All" since alien will be towards the top). If you use apt-get or aptitude, it's just

sudo aptitude install alien

in a terminal.

Also, for questions like this, make sure to install an IRC client (xchat is a good one) and go to the Freenode server (irc.freenode.net) and join the Ubuntu channel by typing

/join #ubuntu

It's full of people who can help with stuff like that.

Don't worry about being a noob. However long you've been using Linux, you're always more experienced than somebody, and you're always less experienced than somebody (unless you're Linus). The spirit of community is what I love so much about Linux -- you share what you have learned, and learn from others who are doing the same. It's a much better feeling than the secretive, knowledge-hoarding anti-communities that a lot of software has.

[LibertyorDeath]

159. You're a good example of the spirit of the community

As a computer tech I spend a lot of time answering people's questions
and giving helpful advice to reduce their learning curve.
It's much appreciated to be on the receiving end.
Thank you for the help and info will hook up with Ubuntu channel.

I was curious about the name Ubuntu strait off

Ubuntu (ideology)
From Wikipedia,

Ubuntu, pronounced /ùbúntú/, is a sub-Saharan African ethic or humanist ideology focusing on people's allegiances and relations with each other. The word has its origin in the Bantu languages of Southern Africa. Ubuntu is seen as a traditional African concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_(ideology)

Cheers!

[Blue_Tires]

163. hmm...

maybe i should look into this as well

[LibertyorDeath]

170. I hesitated for a ling time to try Linux

Seemed to me I'd be in over my head if I did.
Turns out I was wrong but better late than never
Ubuntu is very user friendly in it's install and set up
there's a learning curve to using it but that's true of
any operating system.

Give it a whirl

http://www.ubuntu.com/

What is Ubuntu?

Ubuntu is a community developed operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. Whether you use it at home, at school or at work Ubuntu contains all the applications you'll ever need, from word processing and email applications, to web server software and programming tools.

Ubuntu is and always will be free of charge. You do not pay any licensing fees. You can download, use and share Ubuntu with your friends, family, school or business for absolutely nothing.

We issue a new desktop and server release every six months. That means you'll always have the the latest and greatest applications that the open source world has to offer.

Ubuntu is designed with security in mind. You get free security updates for at least 18 months on the desktop and server. With the Long Term Support (LTS) version you get three years support on the desktop, and five years on the server. There is no extra fee for the LTS version, we make our very best work available to everyone on the same free terms. Upgrades to new versions of Ubuntu are and always will be free of charge.
http://www.ubuntu.com/products/WhatIsUbuntu

[Pooka Fey]

181. Thanks for the link

I had to buy a new laptop because because my 5 year old Dell finally died and I couldn't replace the hard drive because the screws holding it in stripped out when I tried to remove them. Impossible to find a non-Vista laptop, and Mac's are out of my price range. I thought about buying Windows XP to install after-market but it made me too mad to spend another $200 for more Windows. I'm going to try this. Thanks.

[MyNameGoesHere]

24. Oh for fucks sake

stop lying. All OS developers work with these agencies to have their OS's meet security requirements of the government. Christ try to be a little more obvious ok?

[Occulus]

59. Does that include linux? n/t

[meldroc]

79. Yes, the NSA has had a hand in Linux, BUT...

everybody gets to see and audit the source code afterwards. The result of the NSA's work is SELinux, which is a bunch of security improvements for Linux.

Of course, with Windows, we don't get to see the source code, so the spooks may very well have built in some back doors.

[MyNameGoesHere]

106. Oh boulderdash

the NSA is never going to let you see the source on its encryption keys. I don't care what OS user you are.

[meldroc]

129. Why don't you come back to discuss this...

when you've done your homework and know what you're talking about.

All the source code to the Linux kernel, including the SELinux extensions that the NSA contributed, is open source.

Don't get me wrong - I distrust the NSA as well, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

[MyNameGoesHere]

138. So what your telling me is that the NSA

offers freely to the world all that is needed to basically hack the encryption key designed to make it more secure? Ok sounds like fun. I think we are not talking the same language here. NSA uses a specific Key for encryption that MUST be a part of NSA approved operating systems. so far MS and SE Linux are the only ones to pass the test. This so called NSAKEY WOULD NEVER, EVER, AND 20 MINUTES AFTER you die be released to the open public. Can you imagine if the method to hack this secure encryption was released? NSA would be completely vulnerable, and as much as i distrust them that would not be good either.

[Recursion]

149. I'm not sure what you mean by "hack the encryption key"

A key is not "hacked", a cryptosystem that uses the key is. The key (or an effective surrogate for it) is guessed. If that guessing requires a full search of the possible keyspace, then the cryptosystem is ideally strong for its keyspace. If that keyspace is sufficiently large, the cryptosystem can secure data for an arbitrary amount of time (on average).

NSA has put the source code to several cryptosystems into public view. This is because it is a fundamental result in cryptography that the security of a system lies entirely in the secrecy of the key, not in the secrecy of the system itself. A security implementor should assume that an attacker will have full access to the design and implementation of the cryptosystem.

It's also important to remember a fundamental difference in symmetric and asymmetric cryptography. The "NSAKEY" is an example of asymmetric cryptography. In symmetric cryptography, Alice and Bob share a secret key with each other. Alice enciphers a message with the key, and Bob deciphers it with the key. In asymmetric cryptography, Alice generates two keys, a public and a private key. She shares the public key with Bob; Bob does the same and shares his public key with Alice. Now, if Alice encrypts a message using Bob's public key, nobody but Bob (not even Alice!) can read that encrypted message. If she encrypts it with her own private key, anyone can read it, but it will verify to them that Alice wrote it. Windows systems have, it seems, a public key whose private half presumably belongs to someone at NSA. This in itself is not a security problem (I have myself imported that public key into my keyring) -- the problem is that processes on Windows are allowed to do whatever the hell they want with kernel memory, and at that point the NSA is the least of your worries; the Russian spam mob is a more likely attacker.

[Recursion]

136. Umm... they have

cd /usr/src/linux-2.6.19
grep -ir nsa .

NSA wrote the SELinux framework and several of the security modules. As required by the kernel's license, it's all available in source with no precompiled binary objects. It can be audited -- in fact, several graduate-level security classes use SELinux as their "textbook". And, naturally, you can modify it and compile it yourself.

[MyNameGoesHere]

139. I think you are not getting what i said

The so called NSAKEY that everyone freaks about is NOT released to the public to play with.

[meldroc]

144. The NSAKEY stuff isn't in Linux.

What I was talking about was SELinux: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SELinux)

As far as the NSAKey stuff, I doubt it's in Linux at all - anyone can read the source code to the Linux kernel, and one of the thousands of software developers out there working on Linux would eventually find it.

Windows OTOH...

[Recursion]

145. The public key is available on several keyservers

Here it is:

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.6.3i

mQCPAzfTdH0AAAEEALqOFf7jzRYPtHz5PitNhCYVryPwZZJk2B7cNaJ9OqRQiQoi
e1YdpAH/OQh3HSQ/butPnjUZdukPB/0izQmczXHoW5f1Q5rbFy0y1xy2bCbFsYij
4ReQ7QHrMb8nvGZ7OW/YKDCX2LOGnMdRGjSW6CmjK7rW0veqfoypgF1RaC0fABEB
AAG0LU5TQSdzIE1pY3Jvc29mdCBDQVBJIGtleSA8cG9zdG1hc3RlckBuc2EuZ292
PokBFQMFEDfTdJE+e8qoKLJFUQEBHnsH/ihUe7oq6DhU1dJjvXWcYw6p1iW+0euR
YfZjwpzPotQ8m5rC7FrJDUbgqQjoFDr++zN9kD9bjNPVUx/ZjCvSFTNu/5X1qn1r
it7IHU/6Aem1h4Bs6KE5MPpjKRxRkqQjbW4f0cgXg6+LV+V9cNMylZHRef3PZCQa
5DOI5crQ0IWyjQCt9br07BL9C3X5WHNNRsRIr9WiVfPK8eyxhNYl/NiH2GzXYbNe
UWjaS2KuJNVvozjxGymcnNTwJltZK4RLZxo05FW2InJbtEfMc+m823vVltm9l/f+
n2iYBAaDs6I/0v2AcVKNy19Cjncc3wQZkaiIYqfPZL19kT8vDNGi9uE=
=PhHT
-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

And I'm not supposed to have another person or organization's private key. That's why it's called "private". It's true that it is unknown who holds the private key for that public key, but it is not a requirement of the protocol that I know who the possessor of the private key is (depending on your trust calculus, in fact, the *only* thing a valid signature tells me is that the possessor of a uniquely-identified key signed the plaintext).

I've also never been clear from that whole brouhaha what danger exactly the presence of a given public key on my system represents. It could allow a process to send data unreadable by me to an arbitrary recipient, however, there are several problems with this:

1. Any application could do this anyways if I am unable to audit its source (which is why I avoid almost closed-source software) by simply downloading the public key
2. Any network-level control (particularly from a different system) would make this sending obvious and would be trivial to block.
3. It's not clear that Microsoft needed any help making Windows easier to remotely compromise
4. It's trivially easy to replace the key (allowing export of strong crypto -- somehow I doubt this was NSA's intention)

So I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at. There seems to be a public key in Windows whose private key is presumably held by someone at NSA. The public key is available for anyone in the world to look at. The private key, as specified by all asymmetric encryption protocols, is not available publicly but is held by the creator of the key or her delegate. The alleged vulnerabilities this key introduces are not vulnerabilities introduced by the key, but vulnerabilities introduced by the laughable security implemented in Microsoft operating systems and inherent in operating systems without publicly auditable source code.

[rman]

179. It is impossible for anyone to put secrets in a source code that is in the public domain;

whatever they put into it, it will quickly stop being a secret.

[MyNameGoesHere]

109. well last i checked Google servers are still up and running

why don't you do a search, i know the answer already.

[Recursion]

141. Red Hat EL and SuSE Enterprise meet Level 4 if that's what you mean

But that's more about role-based security than anything else (RBSAC and GRSecurity, for instance). The NSA's involvement has been more in the crypto arena; they have urged Linux (like all other OS's) to adopt stronger hash functions than MD5 and SHA1, and they have warned that DES and AES are no longer sufficient for data security. They also recommended skipjack as a common cipher system but nobody seems to like it. A lot of people think they inserted a back door in the S-boxes of the original DES, but I think it's just as likely that their modifications were removing a back door IBM put in (I don't particularly trust Big Blue more than I trust NSA).

I'm also not sure what you mean by "all" operating systems; OpenBSD could care less about the Common Criteria and yet several government offices manage by hook or crook to put it on production servers.

What it comes down to ultimately is that I and 6 billion other people in the world can audit whatever the NSA has put into Linux; the same cannot be said for a closed-source operating system.

[MissWaverly]

28. Yes, indeed

[MissWaverly]

37. I don't blame anyone for the pervasive surveillance

except the over reach of those in power, but we have seen consistent abuse since the
Patriot Act has gone into effect, there have been a series of statements by government
officials indicating a desire to pry into your computer accounts. I am going to wait
until the Patriot Act is repealed before I buy a new OS software. I remember the government wants a log kept of all your searches, they want to know to who posts clip art on message boards, they consider e-mail to have no privacy protections-to be as transparent as a post card. And they want more information on Pay pal transactions. The hunger for information is there but I don't have to throw it a bone.

[MyNameGoesHere]

49. Yes but they could care less about your PC

they want the logs from the providers. 70% of those do not run Windows and NONE run Vista. Vista server has not been released yet.

[MissWaverly]

53. what you say makes sense

they are more interested in the providers: well, let's hope that is the case.

[MyNameGoesHere]

55. It is a problem non the less

What has got to happen is for consumers to put pressure on these providers to not give a blank check to these agencies that want the data without a warrant. Interesting at my work Google has been banned. guess what? They refuse to give data, or only if it is under a warrant. I work at a government agency btw

[MissWaverly]

63. oversight is beginning to curb this, long way to go though

Yes, Google is punished, is the FBI and Mueller being punished for abuse of the NSL
privilege which they did thousands of times. No.

It's an ongoing thing, I have written my senator about the Patriot Act, we have to
keep up the pressure on this.

[Clark2008]

58. Yeah it has - in Beta. But no one really has it yet.

[MyNameGoesHere]

76. Beta isn't a release.

Not even released as a Customer preview yet. Beta 2 has been released but CPD is delayed again.

[Clark2008]

56. You can turn it off.

Sigh.

[MadHound]

6. Like whatever administration that comes in is going to be less respectful of privacy

Gee, how many Dem administrations, including Clinton's, beef up domestic surveillance under the rubric of the War on Drugs? Sorry, but now that these powers are out there, they will be used in a bipartisan manner. Part of this has to do with the fact that most of our intelligence network is a quasi independent fiefdom where party doesn't matter as much as loyalty to the agency.

And there are numerous cases of Dems spying equally on the populace as 'Pugs. One simply needs to investigate the anti-war movement and civil rights movement to see that.

[The Cleaner]

13. I respect your balanced view, but

in no time in history have we been more spied upon as today - with a Republican admin.

[MadHound]

147. I agree with you

But this is simply a point in a long continuim, one that sadly seems destined to continued for awhile. I'm simply pointing out that this won't end once the Dems are in the WH:shrug:

[MissWaverly]

25. I believe that this admin has expanded it to spy on everyone

No, the entire population was not a target for surveillance before Bushco blew into town,
I don't buy it. Joe McCarthy was kicked to the curb for that. And even if someone was
illegally targeted that does not justify further abuse.

[MadHound]

148. No, but significant portions have been for a long while,

And that portion continued to grow no matter who was in power, Dem or 'Pug. This is simply another expansion of that intrusion, albeit a rather large one. But I can assure you that now that this power has been expanded, the Dems won't reduce it, after all, they seem to have the need to surveil as much as the 'Pugs.

[MissWaverly]

180. again, I disagree

I do think that there has been a great deal of surveillance of activist groups whether
they be quakers or animal rights groups. That is a given and will probably remain in place.
But the unauthorized use of the NSL by the FBI to gain information on 1 million people
in Vegas on New Year's eve of 2004, that will go. There is a difference between surveillance of some target groups and the mining for data to use as blackmail. What
else could it be for? First, they have never wanted to release any information on
who were targeted or even the numbers of individuals targeted. I do not think that
a bunch of FBI agents went to Vegas in 2004 to collect this info becuz it was a cool idea.
The orders for this type of trolling are coming from somewhere and it could only be to
intimidate people. That will go.

[INDIA]

69. What? n/t

[originalpckelly]

7. I think this may be the opening. Apple or Linux needs to go for the jugular...

Microsoft Windows' big advantage is its vast hardware and software compatibility.

If that has been significantly diminished because of new "features" in Vista, that would be a good chance to switch people.

[wtmusic]

17. Absolutely - and that advantage is now largely mythical anyway

I have yet to meet anyone who's switched, who's regretted it.

http://www.apple.com/getamac/

[ClintonTyree]

21. My next computer will be a Mac....

I've had it with Windows and PCs and I really hate waiting 4 minutes for this POS to work every time I turn it on. :argh:

I'll have to "un-learn" all of my bad PC habits though, that could be tough. :shrug:

[wtmusic]

26. It really isn't that hard

Here's a good reference to start with:

http://www.applematters.com/index.php/section/comments/a-switchers-guide-to-windows-and-mac-equivalents-and-differences/

[MissWaverly]

66. I had a MAC and didn't like it

you may want to try using someone else's before you invest, one reason for your long start
up time could be your virus protection software, I now have free software from Avast.com
that is great, updates take a minute, and it's not always needing operating time to load
new virus definitions. Believe me, I paid for the premium anti-virus software, this
works better than anything I had before.

[qanda]

38. I just said this morning that the next time I upgrade (which won't be for a while)

I'm going Mac. I will not fool around with Vista.

[originalpckelly]

47. It's just such an obvious rip-off.

Why buy the imitation when you can buy the real thing?

[Clark2008]

61. People won't switch for two reason, one of which is evident in

this thread: people don't like change. The changes in Vista are causing undue panic for many people posting in this thread. Want to overcome the learning curve? Check for free Vista seminars in your area. Start with www.newhorizons.com - they're having free seminars left and right.

The other reason is cost. Vista costs more, but it's still doesn't carry the price tag that Apple does. MACs are more expensive and (still) less compatable.

Now, if they wanted to go for the "jugular," as you say, they'll have to be more affordable to the average small business person.

[LeftCoast]

83. I totally disagree with you on the compatability issue

I expected some compatability issues when I switched from PC to Mac year or two ago, but have in fact found that my Macs are easier to connect to the network and many other peripherals than my PCs ever were. AND, it's a PC based network! How lame is that on the part of Microsoft? :)

[Canuckistanian]

126. Seems to me that Vista is a giant mistake, if the OP is correct.

I have two Lexmark printers and if I can't use them, then Vista is no good to me.

This is because of a MAJOR fuck-up on Microsoft's part and not a result of any Ludditism on my part.

Remember, a long time ago, Microsoft promised backwards compatibility with every OS upgrade.

Seems they've broken that covenant, big time, with this latest release.

[gravity]

137. That's Lexmark's problem not Microsoft's

The problem is that most Vista computers use 64 bit processors instead of 32 bits. The hardware manufacturers need to provide 64 bit drivers to make it compatible with Vista.

If you have the 32 bit version of Vista, I believe that the old drivers will work for it because it is backwards compatible.

These problems are being fixed right now, and manufacturers have to update their drivers or else they are the ones that will be obsolete in the future.

In a year, this shouldn't be a problem anymore, since hardware manufacturers would have updated their drivers by then.

[Canuckistanian]

153. EXCUSE ME, you couldn't be more wrong

It's not MY responsibility nor is it Lexmark's to ensure that my products will work on a supposedly ADVANCED Operating System.. I understand the difference between 64 and 32-bit drivers, but does the average consumer? Not bloody likely.

If I pay upwards of $500 for an OS, I don't expect to be told that my equipment is now USELESS.

I can't wait a year and neither can most users, who are vastly less informed than I.

If consumers PAY for seamless advanced technology, they should get it.

Not a song and dance from Microsoft.

[gravity]

162. So does Microsoft need to write drivers for the manufacturers?

Sorry, it's Lexmark's responsibility to get their products to work.

[Canuckistanian]

166. No. But it's always been the case before to work with vendors

I've done MANY Microsoft OS switchovers in my career as a tech worker. Ever since DOS version 5.0.

And I've NEVER been told that a piece of hardware that I had recently purchased is going to be unavailable to me.

And why? Because Microsoft ALWAYS worked with vendors BEFOREHAND, in BETA TESTING to make sure that updated drivers were available... no, scratch that, INCLUDED in the new OS install.

THAT's why I'm so uspset.

[gravity]

101. Linux and Apple has the same problems with driver compatibility

It's not a microsoft only problem

[kineneb]

115. Hp printers play well w/Linux

they have a whole section of their website devoted to downloadable printer drivers for Linux...I know, 'cause I have used it. They always have a big booth at LinuxWorld in SF, where I go thank them for their support.

Linux user since 1998.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

130. My linux is ok, but

what a pain getting a wireless card to work. Luck, reading, and taking shit for asking newbie questions. No "plug & play" here.

(running Fedora Core 6)

[gravity]

140. Hp printers play well with Vista too

Linux isn't immune to the same type of driver problems as microsoft. You have to wait for drivers to be released for Linux too, and not all hardware is supported for Linux either.

[Deja Q]

169. My vote would be for Linux. Why? Because most people already have usable PCs.

And why spend $2000 when you really wouldn't need to at all?

OS X is more or less FreeBSD (a BSD clone, and BSD is not dissimilar to Linux) and if people could learn a command line interface with the Commodore 64, they could easily deal with Linux too.

Gates and Jobs can whine about Americans being dumbed down... but can't seem to fathom their own capitalizing on the trend.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. I know for a fact that any pre-Vista software will not work with Vista

Your facts are wrong. Most software works fine with Vista. Games that are not working within the defined interfaces will have problems, as always.

Most printers work fine. The HP 8250 mentioned has a vista compatible driver. You might actually have to go the vendor website to download the driver, an act that takes about five minutes or so.

For example:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareList?os=2093&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=443024&lang=en
vista support for the 8250.

What is annoying is the security popup everytime software attempts to mess with protected components. This can of course be disabled.

[Gman]

60. Even a pirated/bootleg version of Vista isn't worth those 5 minutes

Sorry, but Vista is not very cost effective for most home users. Windows is now an example of diminishing returns.

[annabanana]

11. When I get a new laptop for my son for college. .

Am I going to be trapped into a Vista nightmare?

[guruoo]

29. No - You can reformat, and install XP Pro, for instance

And you don't have to buy a new copy of XP if you transfer your licence to the new machine.

[Bill McBlueState]

43. get him a Mac

Buying a new laptop is the perfect time to break out of the Microsoft cycle.

[Clark2008]

62. If he/she can afford it.

I know I can't afford a Mac.

[Bill McBlueState]

103. that's a good point

Not all Macs are more expensive than all PCs, but the low-end PCs are quite a bit cheaper than the low-end Macs.

[Brundle_Fly]

172. I guess...

a mac mini is $499, add a monitor keyboard and mouse for $200, you will have a fairly nice sub $1000 system.

Macbook is $1200 for a core2duo laptop that is a fairly inexpensive option, hell it will even run Vista.

I am typing on a Macbook Pro, that has vista Home Premium, OSX installed, I wouldnt recommend vista to anyone.

[MattSh]

175. Or, if you already have a monitor, keyboard, and mouse,

just hook them up to your new Mac Mini. Most, if not all, will work just fine.

[Tesha]

182. I've generally discovered that people who claim Macs are "expensive" are either...

I've generally discovered that people who claim Macs are "expensive"
are either misinformed (way out of date) or just flat out lying.

And if you value your time at all, Macs can easily be less expensive
than an equivalent PC.

Tesha

[Omphaloskepsis]

178. Apple gives discounts to students.

My iMac would have been $999 in a store. I got it for $899. And they didn't ask for proof that I was in school.

This included a, 17 inch wide screen LCD, Wireless, 160 GIG hard drive, keyboard, and mouse. They do skimp on the RAM (512 .. BOO Apple). But I just ordered two GIGs from Crucial for $145..

If you play games you should get a PC.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

12. My printer won't work with XP

so I found out when I upgraded...

[Lindsay]

14. My old computer died, and when I went out to get a new one,

it was Vista or nothing. (I am many miles from what you'd call an urban area.)

I've had only one problem with compatibility, and that was with ZoneAlarm. There are no free firewalls for Vista at the moment, so I'm stuck with MS, which I don't trust, so there ya go. I don't use any really specialized programs, but have OpenOffice and a bunch of graphics programs that work just fine.

My printer, however, was no problem. I have an HP PSC 2100, which is not even made any more. But it installed on the first try and works fine.

I am not advocating for Vista; I wouldn't have it if I hadn't had to replace my old computer at just the wrong time. But for me it hasn't been a horror story.

[Frank Cannon]

15. I'm downloading Ubuntu right now as I type this

I'm about 75% of the way through a 4-hour download and can't wait to get it installed. I've finally had absolutely enough of Microsoft's bullshit.

[Nickster]

31. It's a pretty good system. I'm stuck at getting the damn win-network card to work on my "test"

laptop. It's one of the easiest Linux distros that I've tried. I've been trying to understand Linux for ever and this is the furthest I've ever gotten with a particular flavor.

[kineneb]

116. skip win-card, get external modem card

I have an old IBM Thinkpad 600e, which runs just jolly on the latest Kubuntu (all except for sound, which is a constant problem on that model- I need to hand-modify the files for that).

I use an Orinco gold wireless card and have no problems.

[Nickster]

158. Yeah I was thinking about doing that. I have a spare wireless card, but it's not

as fast as the built in wireless. Maybe if I get connected with the external card, I can connect online and fix the internal one. There's a program call ndiswrapper that will wrap the windows driver in a linux one and make things work, but I can't get online with that lappy to make things work.

[Frank Cannon]

131. I know nothing about Linux, but no better time to learn than now

I think back to the time I went from a DOS machine to a Windows 95 machine. That was a weird transition, but it was a lot of fun to learn. I imagine going from XP to Ubuntu won't have quite the learning curve, but who knows.

[Nickster]

157. I bought an ubuntu book last week. It's helped some. The learning curve isn't that bad. The biggest

problem I'm having is finding the everyday stuff that I like to use like itunes. They have some programs like amarok, but it isn't as intuitive as I'd like. The other thing is getting peripherals to run, still learning though.

[Gman]

36. I installed Ubuntu about a month ago

and only go back for some stuff I have to have, and only once or twice a week. You will love Ubuntu.

[meldroc]

81. I'm happily running Ubuntu

I have it on both my laptop and desktop machines, and it works great!

I'll admit that Linux, even in a great distro like Ubuntu, does have a learning curve. I have an advantage in that department in that I'm a software engineer who's worked with Linux and Unix for years.

I'll just say that yes, the learning curve's worth every minute of time you invest. Remember, free-as-in-freedom as well as free-as-in-speech. No DRM, no activation, your system won't covertly phone home, you can copy it, modify it, do whatever you want with it, completely legally, as long as you don't restrict the rights of others to do the same.

[Gman]

123. You have have some basic computer knowledge to run Linux

and be willing to learn. I wouldn't expect my wife to install and configure Linux, but she'll tell you that's what she has me for. I think my 15 year old daughter could figure it out, though.

As for the learning curve, I went round and round with my wireless card until I got it working. And, I've had issues with a Canon printer. I've tried Beryl (my graphics card just won't run it on my IBM Thinkpad), and Compix. I love the individual desktops and how clean the interface is. I also love the huge array of software available.

No, I won't be using Vista. Not now. Not since I discovered Ubuntu. But it took Vista's release for me to seriously look at Linux.

[Recursion]

151. You have to have some basic computer knowledge to run Windows too

But that never seems to stop anybody...

Honestly a good desktop Linux like Ubunto is much better for an "unskilled" computer user than Windows is -- Linux has a much better security and user policy model, and it's enable by default, so the mythical computer-illiterate grandma can't hose her own system like she can on Windows. They have integrated package-management systems, so no more DLL hell, and they have a mechanism-policy separation that means your Linux system can grow as you learn with it, or you can keep it how it is if you just want to do X,Y, and Z without re-learning new things.

Lastly, while your generic Linux desktop manager is not as pretty and intuitive as OSX's is, it's a damn site better than Windows in terms of usability and attractiveness, and frankly it's catching up to Apple pretty quickly (the new Beryl desktop that I use is a great example -- I think it's much prettier than Mac)

[Frank Cannon]

132. I'm really looking forward to it

The biggest challenge now is getting my system set up to dual-boot it. I've heard it installs pretty easily though.

If I really like Ubuntu and get to learn to use it, I'll be saying my final goodbyes to Mr. Gates, at least at home.

[RC]

84. I down loaded UBUNTU a month ago.

It took me an hour. I love it. I'm sold. It just works.
The computer is a Compaq I dragged out of the dumpster.
$75 for a set of amplified speakers and $39 for a CD-R/DVD is all the money I have in it.

Put your mouse pointer in a pane and scroll. Move it to another pane and scroll. No clicking as with windoz. To adjust the volume, put the mouse pointer on the speaker icon and scroll. No clicking to open anything.
The 2 desktops are useful also.

It networks to two XP computers and I can transfer files back and forth. No setup required.

My camera down loads my pictures smother than XP does also.

To get started:
http://www.ubuntu.com/

[Frank Cannon]

133. That's awesome

One reason why I finally gave in is that I can sense the rumblings of mass revolt against this new version of Windows. More and more people are going to be turning to alternatives to MS, and the Mac is NOT the only one. I figured I'd better get in SOME knowledge of Linux before the impending tsunami of disgust rolls in.

[LibertyorDeath]

152. If you need something to burn the Ubuntu ISO image to a CD

I used this it's free and works great

http://infrarecorder.sourceforge.net/?page_id=5

[lpbk2713]

16. Looks like I'll be using XP/Pro for ALAP. After that I'll go open source.

AFAIC Gates can blow MicroSlop out his ass.

[VTMechEngr]

18. I used the same printer through 4 Operating systems

98 - ME (sucked) - 2000 - XP pro. Its usually just a driver issue.

[Orsino]

19. I'm using plenty of pre-Vista software without problems.

One online game I play is totally hosed, but I'm told that a fresh video driver will fix it. Other than that (Mrs. Lincoln), everything's working well.

It surprised me, too.

[Clark2008]

65. DId you check your User Experience files?

Before anyone purchases any new software (or wants to use old software with Vista), please type in User Experience in your start search bar. You can check to make sure what is and isn't compatable and how to make it so.

[Orsino]

70. Naw. That's for nerds.

:-)

Thanks, though. If I really get the itch to blow up tanks, that's just what I'll do--but I doubt MS will be up on such obscure open-source software.

[formercia]

20. FreeBSD is good too.

They don't call it free for nothing. Been using it for years now and happy with it.

http://www.freebsd.org/

[Breeze54]

22. This is the printer companies issue!! Vista Printer drivers ARE available!!

Anytime and every time that Microsoft launches a new Operating System;
there has been a delay in the drivers that work with it, i.e. --> XP, Vista.

You will need to go to your PRINTERS MANUFACTURERS or any peripheral hardware website
to find a compatible driver to work with Vista!

-----------------------------------

Software & Driver downloads

HP Photosmart 8250 Printer (used as an example only!)

OR ANY HP PRINTER OR HARDWARE DRIVER!!!!!

01-2007

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00809839&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=443024&os=2093&lang=en

At this time there is not a downloadable full-feature Windows Vista driver solution available for your product.
The short-term driver solution is included in your Windows Vista Operating system and is already on your computer. There is no need to download anything at this time.
This driver makes it possible to use the basic functions for the printer and can be used
until the full-feature driver is available.
Follow the steps below to quickly and easily get your product working with Windows Vista.
HP is currently working to make the HP full-feature driver solution available as soon as possible.

NOTE:
HP wants to make sure that you have the most up-to-date information on the drivers and software for your HP products. To register for HP Subscriber’s Choice and be notified when Windows Vista drivers become available, click Get e-mail notifications – drivers updates on the left navigation bar of this page.

------------------

HP Photosmart Full Feature Software and Drivers

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?softwareitem=ps-48177-1&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=443024&os=2093&lang=en

03-2007

Step 1: Do you need to update?


Release Date: 2007-03-29 Version: 080.001.252.000

Automatically check to see if you need an update

Description

This download includes the HP Photosmart Full Feature Software and Drivers.

The Full Feature Software solution supplies full access to the many features of the Photosmart printer and is intended for Users who want more than just a basic print and scan driver.

Due to the size of this download, HP recommends dial-up (56k) customers order this software on CD due to the long download time.

Enhancements

Original Software/Drivers


Step 2: Does your system meet the following?

Operating system(s):
Microsoft Windows Vista, Microsoft Windows Vista Enterprise (32-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Starter, Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Business (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Enterprise (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista (64-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate (32-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Business (32-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic (32-bit), Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium (32-bit)

Download file size: 67.39M

System Requirements

No additional prerequisites

Step 3: Obtain software:

Installation Instructions

1. Click the Download only button.
Note: Make sure the printer is "Not" connected to the computer before running the download file.

2. Click the Run button to begin the download.
Note: File is compressed and may take time to expand and run.

3. Follow the on-screen software installation instructions.

4. Click Finish.

5. Click This program installed correctly.

6. Connect the USB cable between the printer and the computer, then turn on the printer.

7. You may see messaging lower right corner of the screen indicating your product is being installed.

8. Your product should be ready to print.

* Download file(s) to install later:

» SF_CDD_Full_Non-Network_enu.exe 1/1 (67.39M)

-----------------------------------


LEXMARK DRIVERS INFORMATION

OS MEANS OPERATING SYSTEM as in VISTA!!!!

OS Compatibility Lists

Lexmark is pleased to announce Windows® Vista compatibility with its consumer and business printers.

For more information, please choose your printer type.

Business Printers ------- Consumer Inkjet Printers

http://www.lexmark.com/lexmark/sequentialem/home/0,6959,204816596_666676871_0_en,00.html

Lexmark is providing a wide variety of printer drivers that are shipped with the Windows Vista operating system.
Starting in 2007, all new products will ship with Windows Vista support.
Lexmark is also finalizing Windows Vista support for a variety of its existing products,
which will be available on Lexmark.com for customer download coinciding with the consumer
launch of Windows Vista or thereafter dependent on development schedules.

[MyNameGoesHere]

23. Ok another misinformed

assault on Vista i see. GATES is NOT responsible for writing drivers for printers. Blame the right damn people who have had the tools necessary for over 3 years to write goddamn drivers. LEXMARK HP and the rest of them dropped the ball.

[Breeze54]

27. Not really.

All companies have to wait until MS launches the NEW OS and the notes!

MS always keeps it under wraps.

It happened with Windows 98SE, Windows Millenium, XP and now...Vista.

It's SOP! ;) MS doesn't let the cat out of the bag beforehand.

[Nickster]

32. No, they need to have drivers written before the OS comes out. Otherwise nothing would

work. They just didn't get every company and every piece of computer equipment covered before the launch.

[Breeze54]

33. The companies write the drivers for their OWN products! Not MS!

Missing drivers are absolutely not Microsoft's fault.
OEMs are completely responsible for the drivers required
to make their hardware compatible with a given system.
Microsoft made OEMs very aware from very early on what
it would take to be Vista-compatible, but even with the
delays of the OS, many OEMS still didn't "find the time"
to release compatible drivers.

----------------------

Downgrading from Vista...

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-12546_102-0.html?forumID=133&threadID=239743&messageID=2439319

by John.Wilkinson Moderator - 3/23/07 1:55 PM
In reply to: NOT ALLOWED TO DOWNGRADE from Vista.... by AAHicks

Vista Business and Vista Ultimate OEM users are eligible for a downgrade to XP Professional. OEM copies of Vista Home Basic and Vista Home Premium, on the other hand, are granted no downgrade rights. In addition, since the OS was preinstalled Sony is responsible for any/all support and making the individual decision concerning letting you downgrade. In short, the licensing agreement Microsoft has with manufacturers such as Sony passes the responsibility to Sony and precludes Microsoft from helping you in situations such as this.

As for the drivers, that's something that the individual device manufacturers are responsible for providing. Microsoft may package drivers for convenience, but only if the manufacturer offers them to Microsoft for that purpose. In your case, I am willing to bet you could have 100% compatibility under Windows XP. The issue is that Sony only provides the drivers for the operating systems the computer was designed to run, and the computer was not designed for XP. You do, however, have two other options:

1.) Look on Sony's site for a similar model that was sold just prior to Vista's launch. Sony, like most others, reuses the same basic hardware in most of their computers, so chances are the drivers will work as expected.

2.) Use a free program such as Everest to identify the actual components of your computer (sound card, graphics card, optical drives, etc) and then visit the websites of the manufacturers of each of those components and download the appropriate drivers, which are completely compatible.

While this is, unfortunately, business as usual for most manufacturers, there are ways of getting everything to work. I wish you luck, and let us know if you need any help.

[Nickster]

35. Yes I know, and those companies need to work with MS to get the data they need in order to write

those drivers so everyone works and lives in harmony!!!!

[MyNameGoesHere]

34. wrong

the code was released to vendors years ago. Hell Vista was delayed several times. They dropped the ball. If they did that it would not even be able to load system drivers for the most basic things like your northbridge, or other motherboard resources. Once again fear mongering and finger pointing at the wrong vendor.

[Breeze54]

42. No fear mongering!

Some vendors may have shared their drivers with MS but not all did!

[MyNameGoesHere]

45. Then i ask again

Why is that MS fault? MS makes an operating system, it does not need a printer to work. That's the vendors job.

[Breeze54]

48. I am NOT saying it's MS fault!! Edited to add: I made the mistake! Sorry!

I said it was the OEM's responsibility to create the compatible drivers! ;)

On edit:

I made the mistake! SORRY!! lmao!

I agree with you!

I must have replied to the wrong post.

Please forgive my causing confusion.

I agree with you! It's the manufacturers issue to make the new drivers available.

[MyNameGoesHere]

54. It's cool

every system has compatibility issues with vendors. Now i choose to be smarter than my PC and MS so i can easily overcome these minor annoyances.

[Gman]

64. Do you work for MIcrosoft or something?

Is anything Microsoft's fault in your view?

[MyNameGoesHere]

107. No but everything isn't their fault either

Some find it just more fun to bash MS, when the truth is ALL OS's are really garbage.

[Gman]

120. Yes it is fun to bash MS, and not everything is their fault, but...

MS has been pretty much all we had until relatively recently. And, no, not all OS's are really garbage, not even Windows. I'm typing this from Firefox running on Ubuntu Linux. We haven't used IE in this house in going on 3 years now and that's when my spyware problem stopped cold. And, as for Ubuntu/Linux, I don't even need to run a virus software because anything that tries to install itself 1) is probably windows based but 2) won't have the permissions necessary to execute itself so I don't need a virus software.

I read an interview with Steve Balmer the other day and he made it clear he's concerned about the open source/free software movement. But he didn't seem to act like it was a big deal. He needs to be concerned, very concerned because if Vista is the best MS can do now they will lose a lot of market share in the consumer market. However, for now, they have the enterprise market by the short ones. But that won't last either.

I don't need new new graphics cards and more memory. What I have now runs fine as it is. And, when I install Ubuntu on the rest of our computers (5 total here on a lan), we will be all but MS free. It makes no sense to me to go to Vista. The marginal return I would get from Vista makes it no where near cost effective for me. I'm sure there are more than a ton of enterprise users and CIO's thinking the same thing. Those guys are tied to contracts they have to fulfill, but won't always be tied to. I fully expect Ubuntu and the rest of the free software movement to continue to improve things to the point where they are as good and in many ways better than windows. They will then become a very attractive alternative to MS for the enterprise folks because you can't beat the price. It's no small wonder several countries have gone to Linux and many more are considering it including some EU countries.

MS is clueless as to what people want and they often learn the hard way. MS decides for theirselves what people want then are forced to react when they are wrong. For example, it's no coincidence that IE 7 implemented tabs which Firefox/Mozilla has had for years. But on a bigger scale, in 1996 I read Bill Gates' "The Road Ahead" (first edition) which made really no mention of the Internet. Gates reissued the book a few years later and this time included the Internet and acknowledged that MS had missed the boat on the Internet. Given MS's history of this type thing, Vista will probably be as big a consumer bomb as ME was.

[MyNameGoesHere]

142. MS is clueless as to what people want and they often learn the hard way

I blame the users. Most people treat their PC like their car. Push gas= car go. Push brake=car stop. They have no concern or passing curiosity in how it works all together. So they go out and just install what ever they want with no concern of compatibility or security. The bitch moan and cry because in small writing it usually says "Only compatible with xxxx or whatever. So what is the first reaction "It's Bill Gates Fault!" I mean really, 70% of the world should be banned from computers.

[liberaldemocrat7]

176. I run paltalk, cuseeme, incredimail on XP, I don't believe ubunto can run them.

That appears one reason I don't install it. Another comes from losing XP if I install Ubunto on a hard drive. I recall installing Linux on one of my 3 hard drives at the time and even though linux got installed on a non boot drive the install destroyed the XP boot and I had to reinstall Windows XP.

I won't use Vista because of the copy protection in the copy command and in the drag and drop actions on vista. I also will not get something that has DRM. I read something about Vista copy files runnign slow on non copy protected files as well that M$ needs to fix.

I might consider running Ubunto under VMware or some other virtual machine.

I need to run cuseeme 1.0, a video conferencing client and also paltalk another video conferencing client. Unless paltalk comes out with a linux version, then Ubunto does not appear an option and the makers of cuseeme no longer maintain the software.

As for incredimail, I don't know of any linux software that can match it.

[Occulus]

77. Vi$ta was delayed several times because Micro$oft was rewriting the code

You have to have the final version out to the vendors before they can write drivers for it. Duh.

Even immediately prior to the Vi$ta release, newspaper circular ads for new PCs were still saying "based on prerelease information provided by Micro$oft." Even the week before its release.

No, Micro$oft dropped the ball on support. I think we're seeing the real effects of keeping the code to oneself until release. It was a bad bad move, and it's going to bite Micro$oft in the ass.

[MyNameGoesHere]

108. Ok sure even though the

base code remained pretty much the same. ready queue the crickets.......

[Greyhound]

177. Delete, forget it I almost gave a fuck.

[maveric]

39. Vista wont recognize my Canon 20D DSLR.

So I cant load pics to my PC from my camera. I e-ailed Canon and they told me that they are working on new software updates as we speak and they'll let me know when the download is available.
It kind of sucks for this amateur photographer.

[The Cleaner]

71. Yeah, I was wondering about digital camera software too.

We have a Pentax digital camera I really like, but fear the software won't work on Vista. I bought it like 4 years ago. The LCD display flips up and rotates, which is rare - and handy.

Anyway - :(

[Breeze54]

78. Check this list to find out ---

Digital camera compatibility with Windows Vista overview

http://www.dcviews.com/press/Windows-Vista-Compatibility.htm

The majority of the digital camera manufacturers has published
a statement on compatibility of their products with Windows Vista.

To help you to determine whether your digital camera or SLR is compatible
with Vista, we have compiled a comprehensive overview of the statements.
Additionally, we have added information on known product issues that have
shown up with specific cameras or software. In case we missed a statement
or specific issue, please drop us an e-mail and, when it is of general interest,
we will add it to our list...

Pentax has compiled a Vista compatibility list for Pentax digital cameras and software.

Pentax digital camera and software compatibility with Vista
http://www.pentax.co.jp/english/support/digital/support_vista.html

[The Cleaner]

86. Thanks!

:):):)

[liberalEd]

96. According to Canon, you can use PTP with your 20D right now

while you wait for them to release their full Vista-Compatible driver.

Go Canon Support for information.

Or just use a card reader. I hadn't even noticed this issue since I never connect my camera to the computer. A USB-2 card reader is faster and you don't need the camera physically present.

[Irreverend IX]

127. CF readers work better...

Just get a CF card reader that plugs into one of the USB ports. That way you don't have to plug your camera directly into the computer and worry about the drivers supporting it, and you can also use CF cards as portable data storage.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. With All Due Respect, You Are Supporting And Ideal Of Non-Obsolescence.

I think such a premise is a bit foolish. In order to progress, things must become obsolete. It is impossible to progress while maintaining backwards compatibility with everything becoming outdated. To want such a thing is to want a stop to progress and advancement itself. I would never condone such a thing.

In order to progress; in order to get better, in order to advance; in order to move forward; obsolescence must occur. Without it we'd get nowhere.

But you are also under no obligation to progress and can choose to maintain a current operating system that is compatible with your software/hardware. By the time you would absolutely need to upgrade to a new platform that no longer supports your outdated equipment, you'd probably want new equipment anyway.

I see nothing wrong with this progression and always welcome advancement.

[Bill McBlueState]

46. you can call Vista "progress" if you want

But you also are under no obligation to call it that.

I mean, if I started lugging around a fifty-pound backpack full of shiny useless trinkets, that would be new and different. But it wouldn't be progress.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. It Appears To Me That You've Missed The Point Of My Post Entirely.

Oh well.

[Occulus]

73. I *did* get the point of your post

I just think you're wrong.

Vista offers nothing "new". Nothing. About the only thing I can see that's "new" about it is locking out features from the user if xyz hardware "requirement" is not met (note: I'm speaking of hardware that requires no additional drivers or software updates of any kind here). Another "new" thing is locking out certain features of DirectX10 from users of everything but Vista. This is a crock of shit, of course; there's nothing new that Vista is capable of from a visual standpoint at this time that particularly sets it apart- and some free desktop environments, such as Compiz, do exactly the same things, visually, and more besides. Micro$oft has completely hosed PC gamers, and given the Xbox360, I think it's intentional- and developers are jumping on that bandwagon by releasing PC games along with their 360 versions, and intentionally dumbing down the PC version (see: EA Sports, NHL'07, which uses the old engine on the PC version, unlike the 360 version).

From a security standpoint, I can't imagine that Vista's security is superior to that of linux or Mac; given that those two OSes had real security features far in advance of any such thing in Windows, it just doesn't meet the smell test that Micro$oft finally "gets it". 'Security' is only a feature if it works as advertised; I've never trusted Micro$oft to create any such thing as 'working' security.

The only reason I use Window$ at all is for gaming. That's it. But for that, I'd exclusively use linux.

I have my reasons. I give you one: a while back my roommate got hold of his father's computer. Since there were two network cards in the thing, and only one was being used, I chose to disable the unused card. Upon rebooting, Windows wanted me to reactivate it. It is just that sort of (excuse me) completely useless bullshit hurdle that pisses users off. Micro$oft doesn't get that.

One thing I read about Vi$ta (and judging how Vi$ta handles HDCP, I'm inclined to believe it) is a problem with hi-def audio playback. Apparently, some HD players- both audio and video- claim to support HDCP, but do not support it to the extent that Vi$ta prefers. The upshot of this is that your shiny new $3000 HD AV system could well have its quality dialed back by Vi$ta because your hardware HDCP support isn't "secure" enough to satisfy the OS. I guess the lesson here is to never use Vi$ta as the hub for your audio and DVDs... the precise use Vi$ta seems to be aiming for!

No, I'm staying away from Vi$ta until I'm absolutely required to switch because every game being sold no longer supports XP in any way. That's years away, if ever. Micro$oft truly dropped the ball on this one... let's hope it's a death knell.

[Bill McBlueState]

102. yeah, that's what I say.

Oh well.

It must not have been that great of a point, or you would have tried a little harder the second time.

[skids]

67. Funny...

I could still run an MFM hard drive under Linux if I truly wanted to, and that seems to be progressing just fine.

While there is something to be said for retiring old equipment that burns too much electricity to be worth running, and some of the crappier standards, it is perfectly possible to be compatible and still progress. If you sanely design your APIs and abstraction layers in the first place, it isn't that hard. Of course it does require retaining people with the skills to do so, instead of hiring the cheapest labor that can barely do the job.

[The Cleaner]

74. Planned Obselescence GOES TOO FAST NOWADAYS. It's a RIPOFF. Nobody has the $$$$ anymore.

Like I have the several thousand $$$ in my pocket every 3 years to buy all new software and hardware! Your view is unrealistic. Planned obselence is too hard on consumers, and who has the money? Who wants the headaches?

Do you doubt companies consipire to cause consumers to shell out more and more $$$ all the time? That's what our system is based on!

Case in point, ever wonder why printers no longer come with USB cables? It's because printer companies made a deal with USB manufacturers NOT to include the cables in the printer box. So you have to go out and buy one, more $$$ the consumer has to fork over.

[gravity]

104. Windows XP will be supported until the year 2017

It isn't going to be obsolete anytime soon. There might be a few applications in the future that won't run on it, but it's far from being obsolete. As long as a lot of people have Windows XP, then companies are going to support it for their own financial gain.

[ToeBot]

112. Supported by whom?

Microsoft will end support for Windows XP Home two years after Vista ships. Uh oh, the clock is already ticking. Microsoft has been extremely evasive about stating when support for various versions of its operating systems will end, but the notion XP will be supported until 2017 is just plain fantasy. A more realistic estimate for the ending of XP support would be sometime very shortly after they ship the next incarnation of Vista.

[gravity]

113. Well I made a mistake, it will be supported through 2014

Microsoft Extends Windows XP Support To 2014


Microsoft on Wednesday extended support for its Windows XP Home and Windows XP Media Center operating systems through 2014 to match policies already in place for the business-oriented Windows XP Professional.

The addition of a five-year "extended support" phase to Windows XP will take effect in May 2009. In Microsoft parlance, extended support is the period when all support is fee-based and non-security hotfixes are produced only for corporate customers. Until April of 2009, Windows XP Home and Media Center will remain in what is called "mainstream support," which offers some no-charge support and free updates that don't deal with security issues.


http://www.intelligententerprise.com/channels/applications/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197000371

[Jonathan50]

105. There is a difference between natural obsolescence and deliberate obsolescence.

Much of the obsolescence we are seeing with Vista is deliberate.

Microsoft wants to sell Vista to OEMs and so deliberately made it incompatible with older hardware in order that OEMs would more quickly adopt it.

Which is exactly what we are seeing now, it's just about impossible to buy an OEM clone with anything less than Vista as an OS.

I ran a 386/50 clone at work with a custom DOS point of sale program running under Win 3.1 for close to ten years with very few problems at all. I've been away from that job for about five years now and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see the same system still plugging along, doing everything that is needed to run the business including word processing, spreadsheets and of course the DOS POS program.

As long as a computer is doing what you need it to do there is no reason to upgrade.

[gravity]

110. Microsoft isn't purposely making it's software incompatible with old hardware

It would be a terrible business decision for them to do so, since it is a software manufacturer, and isn't going to make any money off selling hardware. Microsoft is trying to make it's software compatible with all hardware because it will ensure them more sales.

Part of the problem is just that computers are upgrading from 32bit to 64bit processors. It requires driver updates to make the switch, and while it might be a hassle right now, it will be a good thing in the long run.

The hardware manufacturers are responsible for producing the drivers anyways. If they don't produce the drivers, it's their lost. People will buy hardware from manufacturers that support Vista instead.

If you don't like Vista now, then just don't buy it, since most people still use XP, and it will be the most widely supported OS for the next couple of years. It's no where near from being obsolete anytime soon.

[Jonathan50]

154. I think you are missing my point....

http://quasipedia.com/2007/mar/keep-you-eyes-open-dont-get-vista


A big part of common hardware is incompatible or not supported by Vista. Sure, some drivers will be written for some presently unsupported hardware, but not all of the hardware will get its driver done, both for commercial reasons (do you relly think that hardware producers have any interest in investing time and money for writing drivers for something that they have already sold?) and for technological ones (Vista can only function with hardware that meets its specifications). You can read this short article, if you want some additional reflection on this.

Vista main "innovation" is to be a sytem thought with the big movie and music industry in mind, rather than with its users. As a matter of facts, this means that Microsoft makes the users pay (in terms of money, time, unstability, slowness...) for services (namely the protection of "premium content") which advantages are just for the revenues of a few corporations. To quote Bruce Schneier, a known security expert:

[gravity]

160. It's the same with every OS upgrade

All operating systems have minimum system requirements, and if you have a computer built in the past 3 years, you should be able to run it fine. The only problem is that some computers can't run the non essential graphic enhancements.

Most hardware manufacturers will release drivers for their most up to date products, since they will lose customers to other companies if they do not. It's just going to take a while to make the adjustment like with other OS upgrades. In the case of the printers, printing companies make a lot of their money selling ink cartridges, so they are losing money from it.

The DRM issue, while I don't agree with, isn't as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to seem. The worst thing that happens, is that a HD movie will play at DVD quality standards. The DRM issue isn't a microsoft only problem, since the movie companies are calling the shots, and also affects TV's and home entertainment systems too. If the manufacturers don't comply, then they won't be able to play the movies, so they don't have much choice.

Vista has it's flaws, like anything else. I just hate everyone who assumes that Microsoft is evil, and they are purposely screwing the company, when they do the best they can to make the most reliable and user friendly system. It's not perfect, but it probably has many advantages over Windows XP.

People complained when Windows XP first came out about similar things, but two years later everyone was using it. If you don't like Vista then don't buy it. I haven't bought it yet since I don't need it now.

[Jonathan50]

168. Getting to the top of the heap

"I just hate everyone who assumes that Microsoft is evil, and they are purposely screwing the company, when they do the best they can to make the most reliable and user friendly system. It's not perfect, but it probably has many advantages over Windows XP."

Bill Gates wouldn't be as rich as he is if Microsoft was a truly ethical company. You don't get to the top of the heap in business or politics by being a nice guy.

[Bill McBlueState]

41. not if you don't use Vista

Try another operating system if you don't like it... :shrug:

[RedCappedBandit]

44. Am I wrong in assuming drivers will be made available

at some point in the future?

It should be expected that not everything will be compatible at first.


Of course, I say this typing on a Mac; however, everybody claiming that they will be switching to Mac is a bit odd .. in my experience Mac is a slightly more user friendly product yet priced at absurd levels.

[WinkyDink]

50. I'm much more upset with the approaching HDTV regs.

[Clark2008]

68. Me, too!

Having to buy all new televisions is much more time consuming and pricey than reading the .txt manuals that come with new software!

[Buzz Clik]

51. Gee. What a shock.

Vista. Screw it. I won't be buying it ever. I'm assuming it will come on my next new computer -- few years down the road.

I bought my dear old mom a computer about 6 years ago. She ran Windows 95 on that little machine until last -- damn thing ran like a top.

Windows ME was shit, so was 2000. XP is okay, but vulnerable (duh!). Now, Vista is incompatible with ... everthing?

Progress.

[kenny blankenship]

52. Shouldn't hardware like printers be becoming LESS operating system dependent, not more?

Or is the world OK with the idea that their printers have to be made compatible with the latest version of Microsoft extortionware?

With hardware prices where they are today, any printer made going forward should be able to print a raw PDF or postscript without translation by "Windows drivers".

[Zenlitened]

72. That's the sort of thing I keep railing about, too.

When will we finally reach the point where I can essentially say to my computer: "Okay, you're plugged in and running. There's a wireless internet connection available in this room, and a wireless-ready printer, too. Talk amongst yourselves."

:shrug:

There's a whole segment of the computer field devoted to fuzzy logic. And the fuzzier my own thinking gets -- as I take on more responsibilities in my job, as technology becomes more ubiquitous, as my own brain tries to surf this era's data tsunami -- the more I'm rooting for the fuzzy logic folks to have a bigger say in computer design! :D

[Warren Stupidity]

80. Hardly any printers handle postcript without an intervening driver.

Other hardware doesn't suffer so much from this sort of interdependence - for example usb flash drives, usb camera interfaces, mice, keyboards, disks of all sorts, just plug in and off you go as the interface at the hardware end is well defined and standard enough that the device will function (although perhaps without all of its bells and whistles) with many operating systems without any installation issues.

[kenny blankenship]

85. Just about any laserprinter ever made handles postscript w/o OS help

Nothing about the laser is involved in handling postscript of course. It just requires that the printer has a modicum of onboard smarts--this used to be expensive but now it's trivially inexpensive. Many new and upcoming printers will now handle PDFs without OS intervention of any sort. This is the way it should be. USB cameras are easy enough to deal with, unless you're talking about raw files, because the usb 'mass storage interface' for storing image files on ram is old, old technology (FAT) without encumbrances (although MS would love to be able to change that) and the file format (jpeg) is determined by an independent body (Joint Photographic Experts Group) that is not affiliated with any commercial operating system vendor.

[INDIA]

75. Hilarious! This exact thing happened to me yesterday!

I bought a new laptop b/c my old one crashed. I though I might as well get one with Vista. It worked ok for a month, I went out to get a printer yesterday.

I downloaded the printer software as directed, tried to print, and figured out that the software wasn't compatible with Vista.

It took two solid hours of pain and suffering with the tech support guy to print. and i'm pretty computer savvy!

[Radical Activist]

82. Maybe my next laptop will be an apple

I was thinking about it anyway and this pushes me further in that direction.

[Jersey Devil]

87. That's just baloney

My 5 year old HP printer works just fine in Vista and the only software that does not work in Vista that I have is Winfax Pro, which I easily (and very cheaply) replaced with Snappyfax.

[Pavulon]

88. Did you consider Lexmark

may have chosen not to write device drivers for vista to make you buy a new crappy lexmark printer.

All the enterprise line of HP stuff works fine with vista. HP chose to support the OS.

[Jonathan50]

89. Back in the dark ages..

Just about all printers had an "Epson compatible" mode.

Is there anything like that now?

[liberalEd]

90. the only software that failed under Vista for me was iTunes

Now even iTunes is much better with the latest releases from Apple.

Everything else just worked, software and hardware, including my Epson printer.

I'm not saying there aren't issues with Vista, but changing OS is a big deal.

I remember when I switched to Windows XP, I had to keep a system running Windows ME because my Canon slide scanner didn't have an updated driver that worked under XP. It never got one either, Canon just abandoned it. I guess I could blame Microsoft for this, but frankly I think Canon dropped the ball on that one.

[Jonathan50]

91. I don't play games or do anything really processor intensive..

So my next computer, when this five plus year old one wears out, is going to be a cheap used computer.

I'm going to either run Win98se, which I have the MS disk for or I'll run some flavor of Linux.

I screwed up when I bought this computer, it didn't have a CD of the OS, but came with the backup OS on a separate partition on the hard drive.. Big mistake, I wasn't thinking at the time.

I've already had to switch to Firefox as a browser since my antivirus software ended up eating a file necessary for Internet Explorer.. :mad:

[meldroc]

92. Screw Win98, Ubuntu Linux is sooo much better.

It's far more stable, it's more current, it's free (not just in cost, but in freedom,) and it will run even on old machines.

As far as switching to Firefox, this is bad for what reason? Internet Explorer has always sucked, and always will.

[liberalEd]

94. Does Ubuntu run Adobe PhotoShop?

Until Linux gets support from the major software companies, it will always be a hobbyists wet dream.

I love Linux/Unix for servers, but they are poor desktop machines unless your needs are very modest.

[kenny blankenship]

95. "The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones" retouching Photoshop work was done on Linux

that's Adobe Photoshop, running in WINE on the Linux workstations
which created the 3d graphics also.

Maybe their needs over at Industrial Light & Magic are very modest compared to yours.

[liberalEd]

98. Thanks for the information

I tried WINE some time ago and wasn't that happy with it, but maybe it's better now.

Industrial Light & Magic has way more resources than I do, so I wouldn't exactly trust I can accomplish the same things they can.

I want Linux to succeed, but it really has to attract the big developers. Has anyone in the Linux community tried?

[Irreverend IX]

125. Get CrossOver Office

http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/

It's a modified version of Wine specially customized to run some of the most popular desktop apps, including Photoshop 7. There's a new version of Wine coming out as well, and I think I heard that it can run CS2 with no problems. I currently do lots of Photoshop work with Crossover Office, and there's very little difference from using it under Windows.

There's not too much Linux can't do now that other systems can. If you do heavy-duty video editing or CAD or typesetting or have some really exotic pieces of hardware it may not be for you, but I've done all kinds of graphic work with it, including 3D modeling with Blender, vector graphics with Inkscape and tons of stuff in Photoshop.

[leeroysphitz]

135. Yeah Linux sounds like great.

Q: Can Linux Run Microsoft Windows Programs?

A: If you need to run MS Windows programs, the safest bet is to dual-boot Windows and Linux. LILO, the Linux boot loader, can boot one of several operating systems from a menu. Booting Windows is obviously the most reliable way to run all your Windows programs. See the LILO documentation for details on dual booting. Also, LOADLIN.EXE (a DOS program to load a Linux, or other OS, kernel is one way to make Linux co-exist with DOS. LOADLIN.EXE is particularly handy when you want to install Linux on a 3rd or 4th drive on a system (or when you're adding a SCSI drive to a system with an existing IDE).

In these cases, it is common for LILO's boot loader to be unable to find or load the kernel on the "other" drive. So you just create a C:LINUX directory (or whatever), put LOADLIN.EXE in it with a copy of your kernel, and use that.

LOADLIN.EXE is a VCPI compliant program. Win95 will want to "shutdown into DOS mode," to run it (as it would with certain other DOS protected-mode programs).

Earlier versions of LOADLIN.EXE sometimes required a package called REALBIOS.COM, which required a boot procedure on an (almost) blank floppy to map the interrupt vectors (prior to the loading of any software drivers). (Current versions don't seem to ship with it, and don't seem to need it).

Maybe some of the folks at ILM can come over and get AutoCad (which I use daily) up and running for me?

[meldroc]

99. WINE's one option. There's also GIMP

WINE is a reimplementation of the Windows libraries and runtime environment within Linux. In other words, it has the ambitious goal of running Windows programs seamlessly inside Linux. Many Windows programs, but not all will run using WINE.

Alternatively, the open-source equivalent to Photoshop is GIMP, which works pretty well.

[kineneb]

117. GIMP works just fine for me

It is able to do quite a bit, and has lots of community support. And, for those of us with income issues, It Is Free!

[liberalEd]

124. GIMP is fine as far as it goes

But if clients expect you to handle and provide them with PhotoShop files, then it's not enough.

Also, I don't think GIMP is quite there yet in color management. I know it's being worked on and there's some sort of external that helps.

[Jonathan50]

97. It was bad because I only have one working computer..

And without IE working I had no way to download Firefox..

[Pavulon]

93. XP

is stable. Sophos is good AV. Vista is beta. I will not load it until sp1. Just like xp. 9x is old code.

Linux is great too. I have machines running both.

You could run VMware and host machines, XP and RH AS on another.

[Jonathan50]

100. I'm running XP pro now..

And it's OK, just OK.

It even managed to run the drivers for my Quickcam VC which it told me it wouldn't when I went to install the drivers..

However XP does get a little wiggy after it's been on for a few days and I do a lot of cutting and pasting between windows.. It was a good bit worse when I was browsing with IE, with Firefox it's better but still not perfect.

I have some custom astronomical image processing software that only runs on Win9x or higher, will it run under Linux with WINE?

I really haven't paid much attention to OSes in quite a few years.. Your acronyms flew right past me, could you possibly expand a bit on what you were telling me?

[Pavulon]

111. Tools in a Toolbox

Some folks get into OS wars, tout their "side"

In reality software designed for a windows os runs better in windows. Not in an emulator. and vice versa.

I have XP pro, vista, Red Hat, and have used zen and vmware esx to host multiple machines on one host machine. This is a good way to try things out.
My company has a vast array of different systems and they all have their good and bad points.

VWWare and Zen let you load and run multiple "guest" machines on a single computer and share resources between them. This takes a stout machine. It is cool because you save a "golden" image and just boot from it if something breaks.

The worst thing for computers are kids. They find ways to destroy any os in minutes.

Installing a "clean" image and just loading the stuff you use and a good av (sophos) will keep your machine happy. I dont let any desktop image go more than 2 years before it gets refreshed. Sooner if it flakes out.

I reboot a machine when I am done with it, unless it is a server.

XP pro is my home os of choice. It runs on my laptop and on my desktop fine. It is OK, but a good choice for the day to day stuff.

good luck.

[Jonathan50]

114. LOL..

"The worst thing for computers are kids. They find ways to destroy any os in minutes."

I have three grandchildren that could break a crowbar in a sandbox and lose one of the pieces..

The four year old girl is quite good on computers, better than her six year old sister.

The four year old is a born button pusher, you can't keep her away from anything with buttons or a keyboard. I was in a thrift store a while back and found a folding keyboard for something or other and bought it for fifty cents, gave it to the four year old to play with in the car, she loved it.

[ChromeFoundry]

167. Please note...

Vista Home Basic and Home Premium versions are not authorized for use in virtual machine. Microsoft requires you to upgrade to the more expensive versions of this OS to run it within a virtual environment, to be compliant with their licensing agreement.

I think this is a bunch of shit when you pay a couple of hundred dollars for just an OS, you should be able to install it in any environment you want.

[ContraBass Black]

118. "I know for a fact that any pre-Vista software will not work with Vista."

Simply untrue.

Some, perhaps much pre-Vista software will not work with Vista, but much of it will.

[Toucano]

119. I'm tired of people bitching about this. You have choices.

I'm sorry to be so pissy, but get over it. You're only a victim of Microsoft if you choose to be.

[gravity]

121. People just love to hate Microsoft

[The Cleaner]

122. Aw boloney.

It's quite obvious Microsoft is giving the public the good 'ol scroogie on this one. "Get over it?" Not very tactful dude...

The choice is PC or Mac, and Mac is looking a whole lot better IMHO.

[Toucano]

128. What do you want?

Take it back to the store and get your money back.

We get these threads EVERY SINGLE WEEK! It always erupts into that ageless and boring Apple vs. Microsoft debate.

It's even less interesting than a discussion about religion between a Lutheran and a Methodist.

Dude.

[phusion]

143. This is nothing new...

the same thing happened when Windows 2000 was released, as well as Windows 98. It's just a fact of life w/ computers...Hardware manufacturers are always slow to release drivers for new MS OSes. I would stick with XP for at least another year if you want to avoid this shit.

[GETPLANING]

161. Vista will be the beginning of the end of MSFT's monopoly.

Security, compatibility, & cost will drive users to alternatives.

[ChromeFoundry]

165. They said the same about XP...

It all boils down to how accepting the corporate sector is to changing platforms. People generally choose a similar OS to what they are required to work with at work, when choosing their home computing needs.

[ChromeFoundry]

164. To be fair...

I have to say, that the fault is not all within the confines of Microsoft. Every printer manufacturer is also at fault. To take it one step further, every hardware manufacturer is at fault. Drivers are software interfaces between the OS and a hardware device. If all printers understood a minimum set of instructions to perform a desired print operation, all printers would be able to use a Generic Printer Driver. It is the printer manufacturers that define the control and escape sequences for their specific hardware, and it is they alone that are required to develop their own proprietary translation drivers. PCL and Postscript were attempts at standardizing print control, but the manufacturers added their own proprietary extensions to the languages to "add" functionality. Development of a common, open-source printing language and having all manufactures implement this within their hardware would be the only way to alleviate lag-time between new OSs and driver incompatibilities.

I have no love for Microsoft; Microsoft has enough deviations from standards to be held accountable for, this one topic just happens to be "finger-pointable" to a lot of other groups as well.

[snot]

171. So glad I've got Mac . . .

I know pc'er's hate hearing it, but. I use a pc all day at work, and a Mac a whole lot at home -- it's been that way for at least ten years. No problems on the home front; but we need a full-time IT guy to keep our simple pc system going at work, and it there are still constant hiccups and frustrations.

By the time you add in the tech support, man hours and lost productivity, time and costs for the constant patches and upgrades, the need for new equipment because MS is designing to try to fill your hard drive asap or make sure everything only works with other MS products, etc. etc., how much cheaper is the pc, really?

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zbrown]

174. And another thing....the NSA?????

What in Gods green Earth makes you think the NSA cares what you are doing enough to screw around with Windows? Satelites exist that can see a grapefruit from space, in Hi-Def, with sound...we can broadcast TV, phone calls and radio through SPACE into your house, there are millions of servers all over the world...a lot of them running Windows Server 2003 Data Center Edition...maybe they would screw with that?

Even so..

If the NSA, FBI, CIA, or any other agency wanted to know what you were doing, they would know about it without ever touching your computer.

Besides, show me evidence of this "hacking" by the NSA, please, show me some source....show me a file...show me a fire wall log....show me SOMETHING, ANYTHING that makes you think that the NSA or any one else is big brothering you through your computer....

You probobly have never seen the movie Pulse..maybe you should....then you can not only be afraid of bad old Uncle Sam but you can also be afraid of the spookies inside the machines! Run and hide cause they know what your up to!

Besides...what are you doing that you dont want them to know about? Scared? Got some kiddy porn up there somewhere??

Heres something for you to think about, when the black helicopters come and you quickly format your drive...they can get the data back! So all of those high-tec blue prints you have on your computer that makes you think its so important that the NSA wants to spend time looking at it are going to be found, so you might as well not go through the trouble..there is one trick though....if you really want to do it....hold down the ALT button and then press the F4 button then let them both go and do it over and over again really fast...its an old hacker trick...give it a shot!