Two things that piss me off about defeatists

[bryant69]

First of all clarification of terms; Defeatist in this context are those who postulate that the United States of America is over and that there's no saving it. While I am aware that there are lots of participants from other nations, this board largely concerns itself with US politics and policies.

Just bitching about or complaining about the United States is not defeatism. A one word post saying "I think America sucks" isn't defeatism either. Or not necessarily; it could well be just blowing off steam. What I am talking about is an extended argument in favor of the proposition that America is finished (like this --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=543330&mesg_id=543330 ) or a pattern of arguing that American is done and that we should give up.

Finally, I do not support that such people should be banned from DU. I do think they should consider not participating for the following reason.

How do you fucking know that America is done and unredeemable? I mean thinking it, yeah, I get why you might think America is done. But how do you know to the extent that you are discouraging others from continuing to fight to save it? It's somewhat like miners being trapped in a mine; people are trying to save them, and you are going around telling people to call of the digging because you are pretty sure they are dead. You'd better be damn sure before you start going around encouraging people to do this. If you aren't or if you are wrong, the consequences would be serious. How much more serious when you are encouraging people to give up on an entire nation. Hundreds of millions of people, and their children.

The other thing that pisses me off is the suggestion that somehow believing in America or believing that America can be saved is some kind of sign of freeperism. I know that I'm not in step with most of you; I know that I'm moderate or even conservative compared to some of you. I know that more than a few of you believe me to be a secret freeper. Fair enough. That's the price I pay for being abrasive and moderate.

But if there are reasons to believe that I'm not one of you or that I'm a secret freeper, this isn't one of them. There's nothing liberal or leftist in defeatism! There's nothing to be proud of in declaring defeat. Declaring defeat is instead, in my opinion, a betrayal of liberalism and leftism. If you choose to give up, that's your right; hell it's even your right to participate in this forum and encourage others to join you in giving up. But don't slander those of us who continue to believe in America as somehow less liberal or less leftist than you.

As was pointed out elsewhere giving up pleases the people we hate.

Thank you for your time.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[EFerrari]

1. Imagine where England would be if Alfred the Great thought that way.

lol

[MethuenProgressive]

2. You're trying to bring back a locked thread full of deleted posts - that's just trolling, Bryant

[bryant69]

4. I'm not trying to bring it back

I'm just using it as a point of reference. That is hardly the only post to promote defeatism, but it is a recent one and it has me pissed off.

If the moderators feel they have to lock this or delete it, that's their choice.

Bryant

[cali]

3. I see those folks

as essentially nothing more than cartoons- doom and gloom drama queens; the political equivalent of sandwich board wearing loons with signs proclaiming the end is near.

And I liked your rant.

[pat_k]

5. Resisting self-defeating prophesies and other losing tendencies. . .

. . .that plague members of the "reality-based community" --

http://january6th.org/saving-ourselves.html

[orpupilofnature57]

6. Bravo!!! it's hard to be a Democrat , because we take it upon ourselves

to remember and to remind, a democracy has no sides.http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/04/09/03_hard.html

[bryant69]

11. I like that article - thanks for posting it.

Bryant

[Make7]

7. There's probably nothing that can be done about it anyway. ( n/t )

[CJCRANE]

8. I've given up on fighting defeatism.

;)

Only kidding.

Sometimes you can expect the worst but you should never give up trying to stop it.

[Forkboy]

9. Forget America,I've given up on the whole world.

It won't be any better anywhere else before long anyways.

[bryant69]

10. What about Saturn? You given up on Saturn?

Bryant

[LeftishBrit]

12. Well .. they gave up on Pluto last year

[Forkboy]

14. No,there's still a little hope for Saturn

And Uranus should be safe.

[Cha]

20. Time to leave this lonely Planet!

[Wiley50]

13. Funny how you seem to have latched on to one of Smirk's favorite words "Defeatism"

I was hiking the other day
and came upon a guy in a funny hat and robes
squatting over a slit trench latrine.
As he stood up, a bear came up
and kneeled before him.
Then he crossed the bear and slipped something into it's mouth,
pulled out a flask of MD20/20 and offered some to the bear

So You tell me

Is the bear catholic?

or

Does the pope shit in the woods?

[cali]

15. WTF?

Pardon me for being dense, but the body of your post, in relation to the OP, makes no sense.

As for your nasty, little insinuation that the OP, is in some way aligned with bush; what can one feel for that but contempt.

[Wiley50]

17. Sorry Cali. but I've heard that word from Smirk way too many times

As far as the body

perhaps the better cliche would have been

If it walks like a duck.......

[bryant69]

22. See only a freeper would attack defeatism

All good DUers know that it's time to give up and abandon America.

Bryant

[slowry]

16. I once got into a fight with a defeatist.

And won, but he wasn't even trying.

[MGKrebs]

18. I think this has a lot to do with the lack of respect for words.

The internet is still relatively new, especially in terms of people being able to freely express themselves. It seems we are going through a kind of adolescence where we, collectively, do- or try to do- pretty much anything we want without much concern for the consequences. But words do matter, and I think (and hope) that we will collectively realize that what we say and write and type do matter... people ARE watching and reading. Just like everything else in life that involves interacting with others, we may need to learn to think a little before just spouting off whatever is on the top of our heads and the tips of our tongue.

Having said that, I also believe that there is and should be 'forums' for saying pretty much anything you want, but LBN, GD, and GDP are not them. Neither is responding to newspapers or calling the radio station to respond to topics.

If we want to change the world, we have to do the things that will effect that. Going on a political forum and writing crap that serves no purpose other than vent ones own frustration actually inhibits progress by making the cumulative effect of the forum less consequential. Members here are part of a community and what they do affects the community whether they like or not and whether they intend it or not. As adult members of a community, we should choose to take responsibility for our actions.

[blues90]

19. I don't see anyone on DU suggesting anyone give up

That being said , what are your solutions ?

Are you trusting to the point where you have all faith in politicians somehow saving the US from a collapse whether economic or other ?

Are you saying it will take the people to take control and pull us free from this horror ?

Feeling defeated can come in many forms , whether personal or a direct affect from this admin which has destroyed most of this country in one form or another .


I don't think people here promote defeatism , they simply express their doubts and look for like situations to compare their own life to as sort of a measure .

Also how many people do you feel have the power here or the audience to alter anyones outlook ?

[BeFree]

21. Yeah

What's the plan?

[bryant69]

23. I think it will take good Democratic politicians being pressured by the people

to force change.

Bryant