Passengers May Be Sued In (6) Imams' Removal (from plane)

[Rage for Order]

From the AP:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070330/ap_on_re_us/passengers_removed_lawsuit;_ylt=AvBOTR4QW27zmHyFArprrKNvzwcF

MINNEAPOLIS - Six Muslim men removed from a plane last fall after being accused of suspicious behavior are suing the airline and threatening to sue the passengers who complained — a move some fear could discourage travelers from speaking up when they see something unusual. The civil rights lawsuit, filed earlier this month, has so alarmed some lawyers that they are offering to defend the unnamed "John Doe" passengers listed as "possible defendants" free of charge. They say it is vital that the flying public be able to report suspicious behavior without fear of being dragged into court.

The six imams were taken off a Phoenix-bound US Airways flight on Nov. 20 while returning home from a conference of Islamic clerics in Minneapolis. Other passengers had gotten nervous when the men were seen praying and chanting in Arabic as they waited to board. Some passengers also said that the men spoke of
Saddam Hussein and cursed the United States; that they requested seat belt extenders with heavy buckles and stowed them under their seats; that they were moving about and conferring with each other during boarding; and that they sat separately in seats scattered through the cabin.

Omar Mohammedi, the New York City attorney for the imams, said the intent is not to go after passengers who raise valid concerns about security. But he suggested some passengers may have acted in bad faith out of prejudice. "As an attorney, I have seen a lot of abuse by the general public when it comes to members of the community creating stories that do not exist," Mohammedi said.

Billie Vincent, a former director of security for the Federal Aviation Administration, said he is troubled by the mere attempt to identify the passengers who raised concerns. Airline passengers "are your eyes and your ears," said Vincent, who now owns an aviation security company. "If attorneys can get those names and sue them, you put a chilling effect on the whole system."


More at the link


I think it's absurd to try and drag passengers who complained of suspicious behavior into a lwasuit. Sue the airline and the TSA to determine if anyone acted improperly, but suing the people who expressed concern is an intimidation tactic, IMO. I'd have reported them as well, just as I would report 6 evangelists praying loudly and speaking in tongues.


Edit to add a link to the police report

http://pajamasmedia.com/upload/2006/12/FlyingImamsPolice%20Report.pdf

[youngdem]

1. This case has been a publicity stunt from the strart

These imams are attempting some sort of civil rights stunt by intentionally acting in a suspicious manner then blaming the crew and passengers for rightly reporting them.

They do no favors to their stated cause with bullshit like this.

[DCKit]

3. Agree

It is completely obvious what they were up to and NO jury is going to favor their suit.

[Liberal Veteran]

7. Their behavior was only "suspicious" if you believe that living your faith is suspicious.

If a group of men going to a Promise Keepers convention prayed and sang a quick hymn in the airport, would you assume they were planning something devious on the plane?

[karlrschneider]

12. I guess I missed the rash of hijackings by Promise Keepers.

:eyes:

[Liberal Veteran]

15. I rest my case....the definition of prejudice is to pre-judge.

They didn't act "middle-America" enough and so they deserved to be treated as potential hijackers.

[treestar]

105. That argument judges people solely by the group they belong

to. It's the behavior not the group, or you'd be responsible for what Timothy mcVeigh did.

Come to think of it, you do have to show your ID to get into a federal building now. But then again, that wouldn't have stopped mcVeigh's attack, as he never entered the building.

This kind of crap is so stupid we have to wonder about ourselves. Any sense of proportion is seriously missing in this country today.

Why would terrorists draw attention to themselves by loudly chanting about Allah? The 911 hijackers didn't.

[karlrschneider]

110. If a terrorist is batshit crazy enough to be a terrorist, no behavior is off the table.

...

[treestar]

114. Too bad the 911 hijackers weren't "batshit crazy"

They obviously weren't, or they'd have done something "batshit crazy." In fact, they were batshit crazier than these imams, to be able to focus on doing such a horrid deed.

Anyone of any race, creed, color or religion can be "batshit crazy." If anything, that kind of crazy militates against being able to plan and carry out something like 911.

It's the sense of proportion that's missing here.

[spoony]

118. "or they'd have done something "batshit crazy"...

We apparently have very different ideas of crazy. What they did is the epitome of crazy to me.

[SemperEadem]

126. batshit crazy terrorists?

And I'll bet every last one of them walked boldly into their christian church the following Sunday and acted as if Jesus should bow to their 'christian charity'.

[riderinthestorm]

130. Richard Reid was flagged by suspicious passengers from his behavior.

My "sense of proportion" about wierd behavior on airplances has expanded to include a lot of things that wouldn't have triggered my suspicion in the past.

So how do you explain the seat belt extender requests, and then the storage of them under their seats? That behavior alone would have flagged this frequent flyer's alarm bells.

[sanskritwarrior]

116. hahahahahahahahahaha

karlschneider For the Win.........

[MadHound]

131. I guess you missed OKC

Done by a devout fundy named McVeigh. Oh and I guess you missed the bomb at the Atlanta Olympics. Again, done by a devout fundy. Let's no even get into Waco, many many devout fundies there.

Sorry, but people of all religious backgrounds committ crimes of terror:shrug:

[riderinthestorm]

135. Militias and other religious cults like Waco were/are monitored closely by law enforcement

and these kinds of folks ARE flagged as batshit crazy just for their beliefs, and closely monitored. The local populations that live around these kinds of populations are always super wary and watchful as well.

Frankly, I welcome that kind of suspicion about batshit crazy fundies. I share that suspicion - are you saying you aren't suspicious of the kind of fundy group that McVeigh was a part of, or the Branch Davidians or the whackjob anti-abortionists, not in the least?

There's an abortion clinic near me and I welcome you to run the gauntlet of the rabid fundies with a young woman seeking an abortion, and I dare you to come back here and tell me you aren't just a tad bit wierded out about their "beliefs" and the levels of violence they are capable of.

[MadHound]

136. I was replying to post number twelve, who was insinuating that strange christian groups

Never committ terrorism.

And yes, I have plenty of experience with weird fundy groups. Hell, I lived just a few miles down the road from The Covenant, the Sword and the Arm of the Lord compound. Yes, some very creepy people indeed.

But does this mean that I suspect all Christian, even fundy Christian groups? No.

I think that what has happened in this country over the past thirty years is that people who are from the mid east, those who practice Islam have been demonized in the press, government and public to the point where most Americans hold an inherently bigoted, biased view of these people. This has been whipped up into a frothy fury by 911, thus now all Muslims are thus demonized.

Whether these particular Muslims were innocent, or as some here have accused, looking for a large payout, I don't know. I don't trust police reports or witnesses. Eye-witness testimony is inherently weak. But either way, I support these people. If they are innocent, then they were victimized by America's hysterical over-reaction. If they are indeed looking for a payout, well, consider this a lesson for America in how biased we have become. For I guarantee you that if these men were white, Christian, working class folks, and they performed the same actions that these folks did, much less of a fuss would have been made. I have seen many white Christian, working class people perform all of these actions that are contained in this report. They pray, they speak of Hussein, they curse the US(hell, I've done that myself in an airport), and even ask for, and not use seatbelt extenders(granted this was one fellow, and his reason for using it was to secure a small parcel under his seat in order that it didn't slide).

And I'm tired of the mantra that "911 changed everything", it's a copout. Gee, one major strike and we all turn into jello, afraid of anything different, anything odd, anything that doesn't fit our preconcieved, television pumped notion of what's normal. So much for land of the free and home of the brave.

[riderinthestorm]

138. Looking at the entire sub-thread, I definitely responded to the wrong post

:blush: Sorry about that!

Just to answer your post though, I don't suspect all fundy Christians either but if they had done all of the suspicious activities these Muslim fundies did on that day, I would have flagged them. For me, when all six of the imams got the seatbelt extenders and put them under the seats and didn't use them - THAT would have been a big neon light of trouble. And yet somehow here on DU, the passengers and crew (and anyone who also was similarly troubled by the imams' actions) are simply xenophobic bigots because they flag that really bizarre activity? Sorry, no way - that alone is a bizarre action that required notification. The changing of the seats was also a red flag for the crew. These aren't even "Muslim" or religious actions - those two secular actions would be suspicious enough for ejection if performed by any person/group. Combine it with ALL the rest of the wierd religious behavior and you get yourself ejected from the plane pronto with my blessings.

I agree that we have a case of whipped up anti-Islamic fever happening in the US but unfortunately this isn't one of those cases.

And with the imams' threat to sue the passengers who were also concerned? My bullshit meter has just hit the red zone - these imams have lost any potential pity there may have been towards their ejection from the plane and exposed themselves as con artists trying to exploit current "anti-Islamic" prejudices for big bucks.

[Rage for Order]

16. Have you read the police report?

They didn't merely "pray and sing a quick hymn". Here's a link to the police report - maybe everyone who reported the suspicious activity colluded together because they're all xenophobic bigots

http://pajamasmedia.com/upload/2006/12/FlyingImamsPolice%20Report.pdf

[Xipe Totec]

35. I've read the police report; thanks for the link

I still say they were xenophobic bigots.

There was no disruptive behavior on board the plane as some have claimed.

All they did was pray before boarding.

Allah! Allah! Allah!

OH MY GOD, THEY'RE PRAYING TO ALLAH! THEY'RE GOING TO KILL US!

Talking about Saddam Hussein, when this was a topic of discussion throughout the entire world on the month prior to his execution does not constitute suspicious behavior. What made it suspicious in the eyes of passengers is that Muslims were talking about Saddam Hussein. And what does Saddam Hussein have to do with 9/11 anyway? Nothing.

One guy tore up a piece of paper and threw it in the trash. What was this mysterious paper, which was later retrieved and taped back together? A Luggage confirmation tag. Don't know about you, but I always tear up my luggage tags once they are no longer needed, to avoid identity theft.

[Rage for Order]

37. Read the voluntary statements in the report

Beginning on page 19 of the linked report. They did not just pray before boarding, according to multiple voluntary statements.

[Xipe Totec]

41. I've read it again, I still don't see it

What is it they did that you consider disruptive behavior on-board the plane?

The more I read, the more I see these men judged by their appearance and their beliefs. The witnesses were acting like self-appointed detectives trying to unravel "the mystery of the strange looking guys". These passengers were more than passive witnesses; they were actively stalking. That much is clear from the voluntary statements.

[Rage for Order]

57. What i saw...

They were observed in an angry, heated discussion talking about US & killing Saddam. Then, when boarding was called, they chanted "Allah, Allah, Allah" and prepared to board the plane. However, now their demeanor was calm and composed whereas they were extremely agitated minutes before. Then, although they were all traveling together, 2 took seats in the front of the plane, 2 in the middle, and 2 at the rear of the plane. Then at least two of the imams requested seat belt extensions even though the flight attendant found it strange since they were not overweight and did not need them to make the seatblets fit. Then, after they were escorted off of the plane, the seatbelt extenders were found on the floor rather than attached to the seatbelts. Add to this the fact that a few of them were flying on one way tickets with no checked baggage (which the passengers wouldn't have known, but the pilot would have been able to find out once someone mentioned there was suspicious activity on board) and it seems like suspicious activity to me.

[karlrschneider]

66. It's perfectly clear to me they were either up to no good or were just nuts.

Either way, they wouldn't get on -my- plane. No way No how No time.

[Liberal Veteran]

71. That doesn't make you right.

Let's just be honest here. You are pre-disposed to believe there was something nefarious going on. It's nothing to be ashamed of. I'd say the majority of Americans look at Muslims with suspicion. Some more than others.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

82. If you're a frequent traveler...

...then you most certainly would be predisposed to thinking there's something nefarious going on if you see people acting in such an abnormal fashion. In many many flights around the world, including flights that were predominantly Muslim or Arab, I have never seen people act in this manner. It is suspicious by the very nature of its abnormality. It has nothing to do with the fact that they're Muslims (though this probably didn't help.) If I saw any group of people acting this way, religion or no, I'd report them.

[AZBlue]

102. They did act suspiciously. They refused to sit in their seats, they kept wandering the plane,

they claimed they all needed extra seat belt extenders (the ones used for very overweight people) despite the fact that NONE of them are overweight, and so on.

[youngdem]

17. That is NOT what these men did

You should read what these men did in the cabin. They were intentionally disruptive, bordering on criminally disruptive, on a plane in order to create an incident they could use to benefit their cause and their pocket books. They are a disgrace to any noble cause. This is nothing more than someone faking a slip and fall at the local grocery in order to extort a few thousand bucks, then claiming they were trying to work for floor safety everywhere. Give me a break.

[Liberal Veteran]

26. Actually....neither YOU nor I know what these men did.

Everytime this story crops up there's a new "suspicious behavior".

First it was just praying in the airport.

Then it was praying and asking for seatbelt extensions.

Then it was praying and asking for seatbelt extensions and talking about Saddam Hussein.

Then it was praying and asking for seatbelt extensions and talking about Saddam Hussein and cursing America.

Then it was praying and asking for seatbelt extensions and talking about Saddam Hussein and cursing America and sitting in different seats.

I rather expect the next time we'll hear they talked about bombs and shouted "Death to America!".

[Rage for Order]

30. Again, read the police report

I just linked it in the OP for your convenience.

[karlrschneider]

32. Some people ignore facts. Even on DU.

:eyes:

[Rage for Order]

34. LOL. The police report states the imams did everything the poster listed

Except say "Death to America"

[Liberal Veteran]

36. A police report also claimed that peace protesters threw barricades at the police....

...before they were tear-gassed in Pierce county, despite the fact that there video showing nothing of the sort happened.

[Rage for Order]

38. I'm referring to the voluntary witness statements

Contained in the police report, pages 19-23 (that would be 5 separate people giving similar accounts of the same suspicious behavior). But I'm sure those people all got together to get their stories straight before the FBI interviewed them, because they obviously just had it out for these guys.

[Dorian Gray]

144. The police report

which should be the most definitive representation of what actually happened, is available to read. It's been linked in this thread alone a number of times.

The Imams' case against the passengers should be thrown out of court. They had every right to report their suspicions.

[ChazII]

21. Yes,

I would. If they sat in stragic seats of the plane, and asked for seatbelt extenders when they extenders were not needed.

[smirkymonkey]

50. Yes, actually.

Religious or ideological extremism is something I always perceive as dangerous, no matter what form it takes.

[AZBlue]

100. If 19 blonde females had hijacked and crashed planes on 9/11, then

I, as a blonde female, would expect to be under additional scrutiny when I fly and would have NO PROBLEM WITH IT.

That fact, in addition to my very strong feeling that this is all a publicity stunt, hopes they are counter-sued and forced to pay in full.

[kiahzero]

117. Except that's completely irrational

If we focus our security on a profile, it's trivially easy to avoid the security - don't match the profile.

[ecstatic]

127. Great, but as a white/blonde female you would NEVER have to worry about being profiled

Even if 500 blonde females were responsible for attacks, the only people who have to worry about being unfairly profiled are racial minorities.

[SemperEadem]

128. yes you would

how do you feel when white blonde females are portrayed as being stupid? Of course you're offended. Don't play us for fools here.

[AZBlue]

140. Actually I'm the first one with a blonde joke, any day.

If you can't laugh at yourself, you have real problems.

[Skittles]

142. those jokes are out fake blondes anyways

not real ones like me :D

[bowens43]

13. This is the kind of action that brought us the civil rights movement.

I hope they sue the hell out of the airline and the passengers and I hope they win.

[CatWoman]

141. and what of your response?

An ignorant stunt?

people can't bloody PRAY without having the police called on them?

and as for speaking ill of the U.S., um, well, I guess there's some handcuffs with my name on it out there.

[Fresh_Start]

2. I'm not against attempts to sue passengers

IF the passengers were false witnesses. That is, if they claimed they saw things that never occurred.

[DinahMoeHum]

4. How could anyone prove whether passengers "acted in bad faith or prejudice"?

or if they were simply incorrect??

[DCKit]

5. Multiple witnesses

Had they not been taken off that flight, I would certainly have refused to fly.

[Liberal Veteran]

8. Your assumption is that America is a land free of bigotry...

....and the passengers acted in good faith instead of acting on their fears and prejudices.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

45. Let me put it to you this way...

As someone who flies frequently both within the US and transatlantic, if someone - anyone - short of a 90 year old grandmother with dementia, requests a seatbelt extension and stashes it under the seat, you bet your fucking ass I'm reporting it to a flight attendant.

[karlrschneider]

48. Bingo!

:D

[karlrschneider]

46. And all the flight attendants who submitted statements are ignorant bigots too?

Who fly every day with people of every race, religion and ethnicity, all of a sudden decided to get together and gang up on a bunch of very strange and suspiciously acting people. Wanna buy some beachfront property in Utah?

[Richard Steele]

97. By questioning them, for starters. nm

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I can't really agree.

Let's be real honest here: It wasn't "suspicious" behavior that they complained about, it was xenophobia.

Praying and chanting is only suspicious to the idiots who believe that all Muslims are terrorists just waiting to fly airplanes into buildings. It would be no different if I saw a nun walking past a planned parenthood clinic and called the police claiming that she was behaving suspiciously by blatantly displaying her religious beliefs by wearing a habit, cause after all, you never know when some christian is going to shoot a doctor or bomb a women's clinic.

If I did that, most people would be outraged that I painted all christians with that brush of their lunatic fringe.

Personally, I think it was prejudice that resulted in their removal, pure and simple.

[karlrschneider]

9. Nonsense. They were deliberately baiting the other passengers.

They would never have gotten on any plane I was flying either.

[DCKit]

10. You think, I think

But it's up to a jury to decide. I agree that "false witness" is a possibility and if it's true, the other passengers should be held fully liable.

"False witness" is one of my pet peeves. As Pretzledint, Iraq was one of Chimpys' global neighbors, but that didn't hold this administration back for a second.

I'm not one for posting the Ten Commandments everywhere, but find them an EXCELLENT guide for my personal morality. Our elected leaders should be required to study comparative religion and graded.

[papau]

14. I thought there was an in your face aspect - didn't they choose the front of the gate

so as to get maximum PR?

Were they allowed on and continue with the loud praying?

There have been a few of these cases and they run together in my memory.

[Liberal Veteran]

20. Where the hell were they going to go to pray?

The bathroom?

They tell you to get to the airport a few hours early and then you end up breezing through security in about ten minutes and sitting at the concourse for about an hour.

I see people reading the bible, talking to loved ones, playing video games, watching tv, eating, sleeping, arguing with one another, and doing all sorts of things to pass the time while waiting for boarding.

People praying doesn't really freak me out.

[karlrschneider]

24. You don't fly in planes, do you?

I'm giving 20 to one odds.

[Liberal Veteran]

28. You'd lose your bet.

I've flown 9 times in the last year.

But thanks for playing.

As a consolation prize....you get a year's supply of Couscous....the Middle Eastern treat. Feel threatened?

[karlrschneider]

31. Yeah, I believe that. And Couscous is from Africa.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

51. Is Egypt MiddleEastern?

[karlrschneider]

55. Couscous originated in WESTERN Africa.

...

[uppityperson]

59. Are Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia MiddleEastern?

Some refer to the area as the Near/Middle East since actually "middle" east would be Persia to past India, "far" east meaning the far east side of Asia. Most consider Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia MiddleEastern, even though they may be further west than, say, Poland. And my Egypt comment was to point out that there are African countries in the middleeast.

[karlrschneider]

69. Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia are North African. Only geographically-challenged,

poorly educated or people with an agenda would call them 'mid-eastern.'

[uppityperson]

83. Oooooooo, that's not nice. Inaccurate also. Here is some information.

Cultural and art people refer to those areas as part of the middle east, the more correctly terminologists refer to the area as near/middle east (see my previous post) since there is not exact deliniation and it can get confusing. Algeria, Morocco, Egypt, how about Greece, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India? The area considered Near/Middle eastern is the southern Mediterranean, around to Greece, then over to edge bits of India.

Here is a simple graphic to show you.

[karlrschneider]

98. I'm not particularly impressed by what "cultural and art people" (whatever the hell THAT means), or

something from Wikipedia which has about as much authenticity as a press conference by Bushco. And I can't even read the color key in that little bitty image.

[uppityperson]

101. poor baby. Here.

Yup, people studying the culture and art, history, sociology, politics, economics, and sharing it with we westerners are suspect. After all, just because they have fancy titles, came from or have spent years in and around a place, they aren't impressive. Karl, often we agree. Here we don't.

If you go to wiki, "middle east", you can enlarge the map. Here you go though.

[karlrschneider]

109. Well, I'm old enough to hold to the traditional definition, and stubborn enough to

reject what looks like historical/geographic revisionism. Not that I object to progress...far from it, but this apparent expansion seems a lot like of change for change's sake. But this is all far from the topic so let's abandon the bickering over minutia, m'kay? :D

I still say those guys acted like asses and got exactly what they deserved. So there. ;-)

[uppityperson]

112. Minutia indeed,though don't get started on proper names of dances/rhythms/music

"beledi" isn't, raqs sharqi works, "ethnic" and "tribal" are (usually) fantasy.

[Gormy Cuss]

74. Couscous is thought to have originated in Western Africa, but

the Berbers in North Africa are the ones who developed the passion for it and made it a staple of their cuisine, therefore it is a dish principally associated with Algeria, Morocco, and Tunisia.

You know, similar to the way potatoes are associated most with the Irish even though they are native to the Americas.

And yes, many include the North African countries in the description 'the Middle East.'

[Liberal Veteran]

64. But it is still a staple dish strongly associated with the middle-east.

But tilt at those windmills to your heart's desire. Maybe you'd be more threatened by hummus?

[uppityperson]

68. Tsatsiki? Is Greece safe?

Baba Ghanoush? (OMG! Eggplant is purple, and NOT an egg!!)
Shish kebab? (pesky sticks there could poke your eye out)
Aha------Felafel!!!!!!!!!

[papau]

113. Home brew Ouzo will never be challenged by Tsatsiki - well - maybe on Crete - but no

where else

besides Asia minor and Turkey itself of course.

There is a moussaka that removes the Eggplant from the usual eggplant, ground beef (or lamb or pork), (potatoes optional in some areas)and tomato sauce with béchamel so as to go with potatoes only - thereby having a stew that rejects that damn Ottoman influence!

And would anyone with taste buds give up Souvlakia for Shish kebab, or give up a gyro with tzatziki or yoghurt sauce so as to have Döner kebab?

No - so Greece is safe.

just wanted to answer your question! :-)

[uppityperson]

115. "homebrew ouzo"? Do you make that?

Thinking of the keg of (anise? fennel?) bubbling away in the pantry!

I always wondered, isn't "shish kebab" skewered meat (sheep/cow) while shish tawouk is skewered chicken, wouldn't a skewered food be called a "shish", not a "kebab" technically, or has it gotten so engrained (so to speak) or used that the kebab part indicates the skewer? Language is interesting.

[papau]

124. the keg of (anise? fennel?) bubbling away - LOL - well sort of - in the old days!

stifado(beef stew) with "raki" to drink - On Crete many don't refer to the anise flavored drink as OUZO (I claim Ouzu was before Raki but many sources put it at the same point in time- for Raki that is early 1700's the same as pastis and sambuca, and all 3 are well before arak, the similar arabic liqueur (who said no booze under Islam?)).

I rather like the other grape brandy in Greece that competes very well against the VSOP French brandy - in the US most are familiar with the brown brandy available in the US as "Metaxa" - the name of a company - look for "7 star" Metexa brandy but the cheaper "5 star" is a few years less aged but still good.

Now about the stills on Crete - as opposed to other areas of Greece - and their "Raki" with its blue tinted water look.

From the article at http://www.explorecrete.com/reviews/restaurants/piskopiano-restaurants.htm:

Finally a word about drink, especially raki. As I have previously mentioned, the Greek wines can be very good, even retsina when properly chilled. The Greek beers are usually a good bit cheaper than imported and quite acceptable, they do have a peculiar “tang” in comparison to the northern European lagers, possibly something to do with the temperature.

I have drunk many a bottle of Mythos with no ill affects. One advantage is that you will probably have more money left in your wallet the morning after. The locals have a habit of ordering a large bottle of beer among two or more people and drinking from small glasses. This is not because they are poor or anything like that. They are very clever when you consider that the evening temperatures can be in the high twenties or low thirties. At these temperatures even a large bottle of beer will quickly warm up. However, if you share a bottle the beer will be consumed before it warms up.

Raki, what exactly is it and where does it come from? ....The process is quite simple and begins with crushing the grapes to make wine. The remains, (pulp, skins, seeds etc.) that are left after the juice has been extracted are placed in large covered containers, (previously earthenware pots, nowadays 400 litre plastic oil drums), and left to ferment for a year (N.B., A RELATIVE OF MINE 2 GENERATIONS BACK SAID EVERY HOME HAD A STILL).

In October the stills are fired up and people bring their drums of fermenting “remains” to the local still. The “remains” are put into the still and what comes out the far side is raki. As the raki has been made from fermented grape remains it can be likened to brandy, which is made from distilled wine. It is, however, very young brandy and very strong. Good raki, when it comes out of the still, is clear like water with a blue tint and 80 to 90 proof.

The owner of the still may be paid in cash or sometimes they take a percentage of the raki that they have made and this means that they do not have to buy any.

I have tasted it straight from the still and it is very potent. The raki you will be offered or buy in the shops has been diluted. If it was not it would probably kill you. It is a good cure for a head-cold or runny nose. Take a shot of raki, a spoon of honey, mix together, and add the same quantity of hot water and drink. Lovely stuff and the head-cold usually disappears in half an hour or so, magic. It is also good as an alcohol rub for sore joints etc.

If you can manage to get a full strength bottle from a local person it is worthwhile bringing some home and remember to keep it in the fridge. Some of the raki that is sold in the shops, even if it is diluted, is also good if it has been made locally.

Don’t forget when you are having a shot that the undiluted stuff will knock you out. Also it should be well chilled.

I hope that you will as good a time as we have had if you decide to try any of the above.

[uppityperson]

137. Very interesting, thank you.

It is interesting how different cultures do similar things with fruit into similar drinks. Thank you for the information on Creek/Crete liquids and drinks. I have never been there but it is one of the places top on my list for someday soon.

Family in Normandy area of France gathers apples in the fall. They get pressed to sit in barrels to become cider. Some of the cider gets distilled into Calvados (aka apple brandy which is drinkable young in a cup with sugar and hot water otherwise yech). After it ages it becomes good. Some Calvados is put back into barrels along with some cider to sit for years. The liquid evaporates through the sides of the barrel, leaving behind a concentrated apple juice cider/calvados mixture called pommeau (water of apple) which is very yummy.

[papau]

139. Thanks for the info - my travels have taken in Paris and the south but not Normandy - another good

place to visit!

My sister has gone there and liked Normandy. Her husband's company before it went bust had an office there(or near "there" - I have never paid much attention) and in Germany and Australia.

[karlrschneider]

73. I don't give a shit about windmills. I'm simply making the simple observation that those idiots

were acting inappropriately and were treated precisely as they should have been. There are assholes in every religion, race and ethnicity.

[Liberal Veteran]

75. I couldn't agree more with your last statement.

But probably not in the way you intended.

[karlrschneider]

78. Oh, I get your point. And I stipulate there are plenty of assholes who are

atheist caucasians. And if they act like assholes in public, they don't get on my plane either.

[blogslut]

11. Isn't this interesting

Why just last night I was reading about how crazy Michelle Malkin is starting a new Muslim Hater's "John Doe" club to promote paranoia among the citizenry and today, the term is in that there AP/Yahoo story...

Here's TRex from Firedoglake:

"I guess you've got to love a home-grown fatwah.

Chris Kelly alerts us to the fact that Wrong-Way Malkin has a brand new club for all her BFF's.

Most Americans just rolled over and surrendered when Arab terrorists took over the government and the media,

Gosh, you know that's right. I stopped living my life altogether. In fact, I'm not even here right now. I just now realized that since 9/11 I keep praying to Mecca five times a day and I've changed my name to Ahmed al Akhbar. Funny how those things will sneak up on you. Do you like my kaffiyeh?

but not Michelle Malkin.

more here: http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/03/30/late-nite-fdl-hysterical-blindness/

[Rage for Order]

19. Ummm, you do know that...

"John Doe" is the standard name used by courts, law enforcement, hospitals, etc. when someone has not yet been identified or needs their identity withheld for reasons of personal safety? It's not something that Michelle Malkin just made up.

[blogslut]

22. Yes

I just find it interesting.

[rasputin1952]

18. I have nothing against Muslims, but when I see...

"Other passengers had gotten nervous when the men were seen praying and chanting in Arabic as they waited to board. Some passengers also said that the men spoke of
Saddam Hussein and cursed the United States;"

I have to wonder what was going through these guys heads. I would say most likely that these individuals were going about their usual religious rituals; but "cursed the United States"? Perhaps they should have rented a car, at least we don't have IED's.

[uppityperson]

23. I wonder how many people hearing them curse the USA could understand Arabic?

[karlrschneider]

25. We don't know that they CAN speak Arabic.

...
Plenty of American Muslims don't.
I do see it was claimed in the report but anyone can memorize a few foreign words/phrases/prayers, etc.

[DCKit]

27. And if they were Nation of Islam

WTF were they doing at the airport. Those guys have a SPACESHIP.

[martymar64]

122. Why don't you just ban Muslims?

Isn't that what you're hinting at?

[rasputin1952]

111. I am not Muslim, but from what I understand is that they pray from

the Koran in Arabic....but they might well have "cursed the US" in English...:shrug:

Once seated, then roaming around the plane after being seated, and doing things that appear to be a "little off", I can see where people would be a tad frightened, regardless of the security they went through. They could have handled this a lot differently.

I believe these men were put up to this for one of several reasons; scare people, create a scene, perhaps get a law suit out of the situation. One thing I learned while traveling the globe while in the Army, was that you tried to adhere to local laws and customs...these guys were in the wrong and looking for a hassle IMO, and creating a scene. AFAIC, they could've tossed 'em on the tarmac and let 'em walk back to the terminla...:)

[BringEmOn]

39. How dare you mention the name of Emmanuel Goldstein or speak

ill of der Fatherland, you brown skinned heathens! Off to Gitmo with you!

[electron_blue]

29. What about the seatbelt extenders?

Can anyone enlighten me on a legitimate reason so many slender men would need them, and then not use them, but leave them on the floor? The praying, cursing the U.S., spread out seating - all of that could be "innocent". Seatbelt extenders, though. ?? whassup with that?

[karlrschneider]

33. They get really fat as the cabin air pressure decreases?

:eyes:

[Truthiness Inspector]

43. Bwahaha!

Maybe a combo of pressure changes and the vast quantities of food served on airlines these days.

[karlrschneider]

49. Packing on those pesky peanut pounds!

:D

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

53. As I just said upthread...

I fly a lot. I've never, in the course of hundreds of flights, seen anyone except an obviously obese person ask for a seatbelt extender, and in every case where I've seen one requested, I've seen it put to use immediately. If I saw a slender person request one and not use it, that would ring alarm bells for me, because it's extremely unusual behavior for the following reasons:

1) The person requesting it would obviously need to know of the existence of seat belt extenders, which is usually only known to very frequent flyers or obese people.

2) The person would have to request a seat belt extender for some purpose other than using it as a seat belt extender. This is not normal.

That, to my mind, leaves only several options. Either the person is a weirdo with a fetish for stealing seat belt extenders, or they're up to something more nefarious. I'd report it to a flight attendant, and leave it for them to decide what to do about it. That's what they're trained to do.

[uppityperson]

61. Wouldn't the flight attendents know this person had gotten an extender?

Why would you need to report that they got one to the person they got it from? I'm confused. Thanks.

[karlrschneider]

76. Read the statements from the FAs in the police report and get unconfused.

:eyes:

[uppityperson]

93. I was asking yibbehobba to clarify a statement yibbehobba made

thanks for telling me to read something to understand what someone else said. You are very helpful.

[stray cat]

40. I wish someone would have noticed as much suspicious behavior

from the real 9-11 hijackers - It would have saved alot of lives......

[DCKit]

42. They did

Flight instructors: "He didn't want to learn to take-off or land, just to fly"
FBI agents, who were ignored.
And many others who looked the other way.

As with the whole Mexican situation, we don't need any new laws, the ones we have just need to be enforced.

[electron_blue]

44. Interestingly, the only one of the 20 hijackers to be "caught" was in Minnesota at the time

Maybe Minnesotans are more suspicious by nature?

[Xipe Totec]

47. If only it were that simple

From what I remember of the real 9-11 hijackers, they went out of their way to "act White"; blend in with the crowd and avoid any behavior that would make them stand out.

To my knowledge, the general public has yet to prevent a single terrorist attack by reporting people acting suspiciously.

But reports of suspicious behavior have resulted in many false arrests, ejections from flights, Aquaman bomb scares, and deaths at the hands of overzealous police.

Remember Menezes?

[Liberal Veteran]

52. Well, come on....be reasonable.

Everyone knows that if you want to try to something sneaky and evil, attracting attention to yourself is the best way to accomplish that.

[electron_blue]

54. So what category would you put Moussaoui in?

Do you think his being detained for suspicious activity prevented him in particpating in an attack?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

58. Richard Reid?

The information that led to the discovery of his plot originated with passengers, not the cabin crew.

[Pavulon]

65. No Reid

got a beat down while trying to kill an AA flight with his shoe bomb.

The days of people following orders on a plane hijack are over.

[smirkymonkey]

70. Which leads me to believe that they were being deliberately

provacative, and must have known that their behavior would arouse suspicion. If I saw a group of Christians behave in a similar manner, I would not have boarded the flight. I think all religious fanatics, regardless of denomination, are delusional and death obsessed, and therefore dangerous.

They were looking for trouble and they found it.

[fishnfla]

60. I heard the actor James Woods noticed the 9/11 dudes on another flight

I dont know how true this story is, heard it somewheres, on a cross country flight, he noticed some of the original 9/11 guys acting weird in first class nad told the airline

[Kingshakabobo]

85. It's true, according to snopes.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/woods.htm

[blogslut]

56. I'm not understanding the "seatbelt extender" thing

Can they be used as weapons or something? Explain this to me.

[Pavulon]

62. Yep big chunk of metal on a rope.

I have flown all over the world. And as I get older I get..mmmm bigger. I am no where near needing an extender at 6" 225.

Remember the guy who went crazy and attacked the cockpit on southwest. He ended up choking on restraints.

Basically the act of requesting them and not clipping them in is strange.

They want a payday and or to pimp their cause.

Capitan can still throw any one off for any reason.

[karlrschneider]

84. I wonder how many people would be let onboard carrying a 3-inch belt

with a half-pound buckle on the end...?

[blogslut]

86. Ever been to Texas?

The bigger the buckle, the manlier the man. ;)

[karlrschneider]

90. Like the old joke: Woman calls police to report a rape...

"He grabbed me from behind and raped me, it was pitch black but I know he was a Texan"

"How do you know that?"

"He had a big huge belt buckle and a little bitty dick."

:D

[blogslut]

91. And that reminds me of the Bette Midler/Sophie Tucker joke

"I was camping in the woods with my boyfriend Ernie. We were making love.

He says to me: "Soph. You got no tits and tight box"

So I says to him. I says, "Ernie...get off my back!"

[karlrschneider]

92. !!!

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

94. Cardiologist's funeral

A cardiologist died and was given an elaborate funeral. A huge heart
covered in flowers stood behind the casket during the service.
Following the eulogy, the heart opened, and the casket rolled inside. The heart
then closed, sealing the doctor in the beautiful heart forever. At
that point, one of the mourners burst into laughter. When all eyes stared at
him, he said, "I'm sorry, I was just thinking of my own funeral--I'm a gynecologist!"

The proctologist fainted

[blogslut]

96. yikes!

:)

[Pavulon]

88. Hopefully none

these guys are trying to get paid or pimp their cause. They started acting wacky and got the boot. System works.

At least they were smart enough to do it on the ground or they could have had a real reason to sue after being stomped and zip tied.

[karlrschneider]

89. Well, they were either evil, stupid or nuts. Any one of which is enough reason

to keep their butts off the plane.

[martymar64]

123. Yeah, Damn those Muslims!

Why can't they behave and know their place?

[Truthiness Inspector]

63. Yes

They could be used as restraint devices and/or to strangle someone. Not saying that's what they had in mind, just that these are possible uses for the extenders.

[trumad]

80. Wow--great thread....

I went in to this thread thinking that these guys should sue.... but now I'm asking, what the hell did they need seatbelt extenders for---all 6 of them.

Now I believe it's a set-up.

[Jonathan50]

67. They could be used as a flail

[electron_blue]

72. I'm still waiting to hear of a non-violent reason they wanted these extenders

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

79. If it were one person...

...I'd chalk it up to either kleptomania or a fixation on collecting items associated with air travel. (Hell, I'm sitting on a nice American Airlines blanket appropriated by one of my ex-housemates at the moment.)

[blogslut]

81. Did I propose one?

I was merely asking why they were so threatening. I've been flying on planes for decades and never knew the things existed.

[electron_blue]

87. I didn't mean I was waiting for *you* to give an answer, I just wondered why

4 or 5 of them asked for seat-belt extnders when they weren't big enough to need them. Rather than claim they were going to use them as weapons I'm waiting to hear someone defending them give a rational reason for asking for the extenders.

[MH1]

104. Complete speculation here....

that they might have wanted to be able to pray in the best fashion they could while in flight, and seat belt extenders would allow them more freedom to lean forward as if bowing?

I know, that's a stretch. I'm not Muslim, I have never heard of this, but I do try to put myself in the other person's position and think what they might have been thinking of. And that's what comes to my mind on this question.

I wouldn't be trying so hard but I didn't find anything suspicious in the rest of the reports. (Come on, they weren't expected to be agitated when talking about Saddam Hussein? Hell, *I* get agitated when I talk about what the US is doing in Iraq. Praying to Allah - no big deal. Separate seats - maybe they couldn't get them together and pairing up as they did was the best they could do. No checked luggage? I do that all the time. Only thing left is the seat belt extenders, right?)

:shrug:

[Pavulon]

107. Never seen

a Muslim pray on a flight in that manner. He would have to have a compass heading to find mecca if he were so inclined.

It is a stunt for money and press.

[uppityperson]

108. Remembering back a couple yrs to the mideast band problem flight

1 sat in first class, others in scattered seats in main cabin. They nodded to each other like they knew each other. 1 took a McDonald's bag to the toilet and didn't have it when he came out. 1 kept hold of a long thin case. They stood in line back by the toilets. They went to the toilet right before they were due to start landing (right before told to go to seats/seatbelts/etc). They talked in Arabic. To each other. In passing.

Fast forward to (whichever emergency/gvt group was responsible at the time for taking suspicious passengers off) who discovered they were a famous Mideast band traveling to a concert. Those poor people who were frightened.

Not the same, but similar. Had anyone talked with these band members, they could've found out who they were and maybe learned something. Did the flight attendants or fellow passengers ask these imams why they wanted seat belt extenders? It is ok to talk to strangers. Come on people. Seriously.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

77. As the other responses stipulate...

...yes, I suppose they could be used as a weapon. But I can think of about a hundred other things that you could probably carry onto a plane without question that would make better weapons than a seat belt extension. However, that doesn't change the fact that they did something unusual. I'm trying to state this clearly, so bear with me:

If someone does something like that on a plane, you wonder about it. Someone who doesn't need a seat belt extension requesting one and then not using it seems weird. You wonder about why they would have done such a thing. It's something that they've obviously premeditated (you don't accidentally ask for a seat belt extension) but which makes no immediate sense to you as an observer.

Now, there might be a legitimate reason for doing this. However, it's not up to you to decide. You report it to a flight attendant, and rely on their experience in dealing with such matters to decide whether it's suspicious enough to warrant action.

Now, from the perspective of the flight attendants who, upon learning all of this, kicked them off the flight:

If six men who are obviously together in the departure lounge separate on the plane and all of them ask for seat belt extensions even though they're not needed, you wil be very suspicious. This is the prime point - as a flight attendant you are trained that your first and foremost responsibility is the safety and security of your passengers. If, as a flight attendant, you see a group of people acting suspiciously, you MUST do something about it, even if you don't understand the exact nature of what they're doing (for example, how much havoc could anyone really cause with a seat belt extension?) This is what they train you for. That's your job.

[uppityperson]

95. Again, wouldn't the flight attendants know that they all asked for them?

Why would passengers have to report this to the flight attendants?

[Truthiness Inspector]

99. The issue

I think is that the passengers reported that the imams were not using the extenders the flight attendants had given them.

[uppityperson]

103. Thank you. I can't download the pdf as am on a slowwwwww connection.

Thank you.

[treestar]

106. Anybody can sue anybody

But if there is no legal basis for a lawsuit (a cause of action) it can be thrown out by motion.

The MSM preys upon our general ignorance of our own legal system once again.

[blondeatlast]

132. Yhat's the REAL issue here, but it just ain't sexy enough. nt

[ComerPerro]

119. somebody a while back posted statements from the defense that pretty much debunked the

claims of "suspicious behavior"

I wouldn't be suprised if they are suing the passenger in the police report for making false statements.

[ContraBass Black]

120. Because I usually find myself far more likely to be falsely suspected or reported

As a violent attacker than to be a victim of an attack, I find this possibility interesting, rather than alarming.

[cgrindley]

121. Is the seatbelt extension story true?

If so, I would have wanted off that plane immediately. I've never even seen a really obese person need one, and I've flown hundreds of times for work.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

125. It's true...

...as long as you believe the cabin crew's affadavits.

[dogday]

129. It is always nice to get the other side of the story

before one makes any decision. I have learned long ago, things are not always what they seem.

[riderinthestorm]

133. This is looking more and more like a staged stunt by the imams

Sueing the passengers? Sorry but this just indicates to me that this was purely a propaganda stunt designed to extort money from an airline and anyone else they can think of.

[LSK]

134. TERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR

People watch to much fucking TV and believe that shit.

[Justice]

143. bringing a suit is not a good idea