Questions regarding vehicles that use internal combustion.....

[Aviation Pro]

...has any elected official been looney enough (in other words come to a sad realization and tried to insert a little responsibility into the discourse) to suggest a special yearly tax for those individuals and families who "must" have more than two vehicles that use internal combustion (i.e. the two gas hog SUVs, the RV, the teen vehicle or two or three, the ATV, the dirt bike, the three personal water craft and the rarely used boat)? Could a yearly tax like this (exponential as one acquires more things that need to go intake, compression, power and exhaust) change purchasing behaviors, reduce dependence on foreign oil, and cut back on carbon emissions?

Or have I just lost my mind?

[originalpckelly]

1. I don't know, why not not tax something...

and actually talk to the SUV owners and educate them about the harm they're doing?

:shrug:

Why go to a tax, they obviously have enough money to have an SUV, do you really think that will stop them?

[Aviation Pro]

3. Make the tax enough of a burden to make them sit up and take notice...

....

[originalpckelly]

6. Again, why a tax?

Why is the solution to everything some damn tax?

Why not just teach them and actually change their minds, you know like they do in one of them democracy thingies?

[Aviation Pro]

8. Because the only way to get most folks attention and change behavior...

...is to make something sufficiently draconian. I happen to agree with you that education is best in the long term, but look at our track record in another arena, we'd rather build prisons than develop quality education programs (one is short term the other is long term).

[originalpckelly]

10. The problem is that the people who own SUVs and don't need them...

will eventually get so pissed off that they start voting for the other party, the Republicans get back into power, then they repeal the tax.

You're forcing your will on someone else, when you could educate them and talk to them and respect them like every human being deserves respect. If you're right, they'll probably not do something to hurt themselves and they'll probably change their mind.

The problem is that by forcing someone to do something, it creates an unnecessary animosity.

It's the difference between being asked very kindly by someone for $50 or being robbed by someone for $50. People will probably give the $50 freely if they do it of their own choosing, they'll even feel good about it and be proud of it, and may even do more of it to get that good feeling. No one likes to be robbed.

Now obviously a tax is not robbing someone, but it's certainly not a thing greeted with a smile by most sane people, because it's something you have to pay.

I hope you see what I'm talking about here.

[Aviation Pro]

14. I see what you're talking about....

...but there's also enough quality and validated material on the web for people to educate themselves. They, by negligence, ignorance or willfulness refuse to do so. Everytime I pass a behemoth RV towing an SUV with a requisite ATV on the trailer I wonder whether these folks are the former or the latter (as soon as I see the inevitable Bush/Cheney sticker I have no doubt in my mind).

Thus, my draconian and onerous suggestion.

[Clark2008]

40. But just about anyone can say they need one - and have valid

excuses.

Like, they have a family of six and can't fit them all in a car and a mini-van simply isn't safe. All of which is true. Granted, they don't live on a prairie or mountain top, but they need the space to fit the family all in one vehicle rather than taking two, which would cost more in gas.

(For the record, I don't and don't own an SUV. I'm just playing Devil's advocate).

[ProudDad]

83. How about

to pay for the extra damage they do compared to reasonable vehicles...

[MGD]

16. Take notice of what?

[Aviation Pro]

18. Of their dwindling resources.....

...and what's causing it. Not the tax, their consumptive habits.

[MGD]

29. I say V-8 hummers for everyone and let's burn every last drop of oil on earth as fast as possible

Every gallon we burn is a gallon the Chinese can't have. Hell, the way I see it, it's our patriotic duty to waste those resources as fast as we can. What's more, once it's gone, we'll have no choice but to move on to hydrogen finally.

[wtmusic]

51. "Moving on" to hydrogen...good one

Hydrogen has been keeping America's eye off the ball since 1840...why stop now.

[roody]

60. A lot of them got a tax credit for the full amount of their

f*****g SUV or hummer.

[wtmusic]

2. Too soon - not enough alternatives

Although I agree with you that such a move is fair, it would political suicide for any elected official.

Let's get EVs on the road (and off-road) where they belong. The technology is here.

[Jonathan50]

7. The technology for EVs isn't here.... yet.

Battery technology simply is not up to the task of making a practical EV yet.

Perhaps for an urban runabout, but not for suburban and certainly not for rural areas.

[wtmusic]

9. Not true

90% of Americans drive under thirty miles/day.

Contemporary EV technology can produce an affordable commuter vehicle with a range of nearly 200 miles.

Do you drive more than 200 miles/day?

[Jonathan50]

11. Average commute distance....

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098&page=1

Life for commuters can be heaven or hell. They report an average one-way commute time of 26 minutes (over an average distance of 16 miles). But the variance is huge: On the best days, the average commute is 19 minutes; on the worst days, 46 minutes. That means traffic, at its worst, can double the average commute time, adding 27 minutes each way.

That means that approximately half of commuters do over 32 miles per day just in commuting distance.

And if you want air conditioning or heat that is going to sap battery capacity even more quickly, probably much more quickly. Things which get hot or cold use a lot more energy than things that go round and round.

I would like to see a link on your 200 mile range claim.

[wtmusic]

12. A far cry short of 200 miles

In 1999 a GM EV1 equipped with NiMH batteries could do 150 miles/day:

http://www.kingoftheroad.net/charge_across_america/charge_html/nimh_test2.html

Though GM refused to sell any EV1s (they were leased, then destroyed -- see http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/) the estimated purchase price was $80,000.

In 2007, a mass-produced vehicle with safe lithium iron phosphate cells would cost less than $30K and have a range of 200 miles:

http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF-12v.htm

Though the Petroleum Institute would prefer to continue raping you, I feel an obligation to inform you that yes, the technology is here.

[Jonathan50]

26. Your link says nothing about electric vehicles..

From your link:

Lithium iron phosphate batteries


4 pcs of 55Ah/3.2V in series

4 180 x 190 x 120mm

7.1 x 7.5 x 4.7inches

8.5kg

19 lbs
$1027

That $1027 for 704 watt hours..

One horsepower = 746 watts, so that batttery pack would put out less than one horsepower worth of electricity for one hour before being completely discharged.

It has an energy/weight ratio of 37 watt hours/lb..

[Aviation Pro]

33. Or 550 ft/lbs....

...cool, a thrust to weight example.

[wtmusic]

42. Great-now put 24 of these together in a series/parallel pack

and you have 16,896 w/h (I should add that Thunder-Sky http://www.thunder-sky.com/home_en.asp a Chinese company, makes Li-Ion cells with a similar chemistry for about half the price).

The only thing hindering practical, affordable electric vehicles in the US are the profits Detroit derives from parts/service, and the petroleum sector's unrelenting assault.

[Jonathan50]

52. That's 22.6 horsepower for one hour.. assuming 100% efficiency in the total system

And given the original price, you are still talking over $20,000 just for the batteries..

Given a 1000 charge/discharge cyle battery life and consider that you will probably use the car say at least 250 days a year, then you will have to replace the battery pack probably around every four years or so. That's $5,000/year for battery replacement alone. Cut that in half and you are still talking $2,500/year for battery replacement.

I used to race electric powered remote control cars, the battery packs do not last all that long. Electric vehicles are a severe environment for battery packs.

Furthermore there is insufficient generating capacity in the US to recharge millions of electric cars every day.

And one more thing, we still haven't counted the energy cost of heating or air conditioning, that is going to be a truly significant part of the overall energy use in the vehicle.

Even down here in the south where I live, heating is an absolute necessity in the winter.

Not too many people down here are going to buy a car without AC either.

[Aviation Pro]

54. No such level of efficiency....

...converting battery power to mechanical power always loses a level or two of efficiency. I'd say the best one can get out of a pure battery vehicle would be around 80%. (Friction is such a drag).

[krispos42]

63. I read in Popular Mechanics...

that scientists have found a way to make the chemical structure in lithium-ion batteries self-replicate, so it grows naturally into a matrix that holds three times the energy as a conventional cell of the same size. I presume they are working on mass-production techniques.

[wtmusic]

55. Lithium iron phosphate is good for 1500-2000 cycles

and EVs require a fraction of other internal combustion maintenance expenses:

No:
Oil changes
Filter changes
Tuneups
Mufflers
Alternators
Starters
Plugs
etc etc etc

There is plenty of generating capacity in the US, as the vast majority of EVs will be charged at night during off-peak hours.

onedit: bottom line, maybe you're just one of the 10% of American drivers for whom an EV wouldn't make sense.

[Jonathan50]

72. From your original link..

"Our cells typically have more than 1000 cycles in service."

Like I said, electric vehicle use is a severe environment for rechargeable batteries.. I know this from personal experience.

In a large battery pack needed for an EV cooling is going to be a major problem. Batteries generate considerable heat under heavy current load. If you use regenerative braking the heat problem becomes even worse since batteries produce heat when charging also.

The batteries in my radio controlled electric racing car would come out too hot to touch after fifteen minutes of playing around.

Another issue is apartment dwellers. How are they going to recharge their electric car sitting out in the parking lot? City dwellers often can't park very close to their home too.

My 93 Infiniti J30 has gone over 100k miles with no tune up and not even spark plugs, it still passes emissions with flying colors. We have changed an alternator and a water pump in 250k miles.

Oil changes we have done every 5k miles at a cost of about $35 if I have it done and about $10 if I do it myself. Assuming 15k miles/year then that is $175 per year.

You still haven't addressed the heating and air condition issue either.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see electric cars become practical, they just aren't there yet and I think it will be a while before the battery technology reaches the point where they will be practical.

[wtmusic]

79. Now don't start cherry picking quotes

Just before your quote: "Test data in the laboratory show up to 2000 charge/discharge cycles." :eyes:

EV1s put in millions of miles without overheating problems. Comparing them to an RC toy is apples/oranges. How hot does your cell phone get when you use it?

For each person you show me who can't use an EV, I'll show you five who can. EVs can have heaters and to a lesser extent A/C as well (the EV1 did, as well as acceleration to beat a Porsche Turbo. And that was six years ago). Or continue to pay 3x as much to get from point A to point B while you do your part for global warming.

EVs are not only there, they've been here for at least five years. Do yourself a favor and rent "Who Killed the Electric Car?" There's a very good reason why they're not available, and it has nothing to do with lack of technology.

[Jonathan50]

80. "Test data in the laboratory show up to 2000 charge/discharge cycles."

That is a maximum under ideal conditions at low current draw, mild temperatures and probably slow charging.

Under real world conditions in an EV, they aren't going to get 2,000 charge/discharge cycles.

You'd be surprised how sophisticated electric r/c model cars are, the one I have (haven't played with it in years) had a high frequency, pulse modulated speed controller with regenerative braking.. That was over ten years ago..

Here's one, all wheel drive, fully independent tunable front and rear suspension, more sophisticated than 90% plus of the cars on the road..



Here's a programmable digital, brushless motor and speed controller:

[wtmusic]

81. You're right, I am suprised

but more suprised that if you know that can be done for a miniature car, that you can't believe a full-size, short-range car is viable.

And you were probably using NiMH batteries. Li-Ions with LiCoO₂ chemistry have twice the energy density, with LiFePO₄ somewhere in between.

[Jonathan50]

82. Nope, they were nicads...

But nicads don't degrade as much with heat as do some of the more modern batteries. Plus I was using Sanyo SCR cells which are specifically designed for high discharge rates and quick charging.



Electric model airplanes can have absolutely astounding performance..

This one below is called an F5b motor glider, it actually has a folding propeller on the front although it's hard to see. One of these planes will take off vertically out of your hand and be out of sight straight up in ten to fifteen seconds, it's called "specking out" because the plane becomes a speck. The motors are brushless and essentially noiseless but the prop makes a mean zzzzzzziiiinnnngg kind of sound, like an electric weedeater on meth.



RC electric model cars and planes can have astounding performance but only for a few minutes.. The F5b motor glider has a total motor run of about 90 seconds. After you shut the motor off it becomes an extremely efficient and very fast glider and you can fly for quite a while on a single battery charge.

I've seen the plane below fly, it's an electric model of a German Horten flying wing from WWII, the name of it is "King Crimson" and it is an impressive performer. The thing looks real in the air and with the four propellers heterodyning together it sounds quite wicked.

[wtmusic]

85. "electric weedeater on meth"

:rofl:

I've recently rediscovered model plane flying with my son but my, my how much things have changed since I was a kid...he's into the ultralight "park flyers" which are very basic but still capable of crashing spectacularly. ;)

[Jonathan50]

86. Oh yes, some of the park flyers are way too cool..

Unfortunately I can no longer afford to fly. :(

I cracked 'em up at the hobby shop when I described a Viper as "a Cobra on steroids". :)

I was ordering an AC Cobra body for my RC10L.

If I hadn't let the magic smoke out of my quickcharger I'd still by playing with my car. :(

[krispos42]

62. There is also a production capacity problem

Lithium-ion batteries are used in thousands of commercial products, but most of them are small, only an ounce or two.

We're talking battery stacks of a thousand pounds, times the 17 million new cars and trucks sold in the US every year. That's 8.5 million tons of Li-ion batteries that must be made a year in addition to the strong demand from the small-electronics consumer market. That's a lot of added production capacity that must be added.

[ProudDad]

84. Time ain't miles

Around here (S.F. Bay Area) a 25 minute commute is usually about 10 miles.

From your link:

"But there's a darker side: About a third can be classified as aggressive drivers. Six in 10 concede they sometimes go well over the speed limit. Sixty-two percent occasionally get frustrated behind the wheel, more than four in 10 get angry and two in 10 sometimes boil into road rage. And nothing fuels driver anger like getting stuck in a traffic jam."

Great idea!!!

And ABC? What a great source...

[krispos42]

28. I have my own idea on the subject

I wrote about it here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/krispos42/2

I expanded the idea with a 40-horsepower engine tied to a generator to make 300 VDC, all of this on a small trailer with a 15-gallon gas tank and a power feed right into the car's electrical grid. These would be available for rent for long periods of driving.

My idea would give people an all-battery car for probably 95% of their driving days, and an option for longer trips with the internal generator, and the above option for truly cross-country driving. Looking at the last year or so of my driving, I have not driven long enough to have needed using the internal auxillary, much less the trailer generator! :-)

[Jonathan50]

34. That's funny, I had a similar idea

A few years ago.

I guess great minds think alike :)

[krispos42]

36. So does GM, with the new Chevy Volt

Although that car only goes about 40 miles on a charge. I guess it would save a wad on batteries, though.

[wtmusic]

47. The Volt is a concept car which will never see the light of day

and its only purpose is corporate PR to deflect criticism from "Who Killed the Electric Car?"

[wtmusic]

43. That removes one of the most attractive reasons for

owning an EV -- simplicity of operation. The best range extender for an EV is a second car.

[krispos42]

45. And that would hold true for most people

Married or in a committed relationship. But it would help those that do not have a second, gasoline powered car available or who do not want to rent one.

We're working withing the bounds of current technology, so it's still limited. One day we'll have something futuristic, like molecular-distorion batteries or something, that can run a car for a week on a charge. Until then, we're stuck! :-)

[wtmusic]

48. But if you're going to spend the money on a generator

wouldn't it make sense to just buy a subcompact 2nd car for those longer trips? :shrug:

[krispos42]

61. Ah! I see your confusion, and it's my fault! Very sorry.

I failed to mention that it would be a rental unit! I had envisioned a standardized connection setup and trailer hitch so that you could rent one like you could rent a power washer, cement mixer, wood chipper or other large piece of equipment from your local rental equipment place. Probably Hertz and Enterprise would get in on the business as well.

In my case, I would not have needed to rent one since August of 2005, when I had to travel to Rapid City, South Dakota from the Twin Cities in Minnesota. But for when I wanted to drive my hypothetical electric car to, say, my family in Connecticut, I could just rent a generator trailer (which would probably be about the size of a motorcycle trailer) and hitch it to my car for the drive. Maybe $20 a day or something.

I guess some people would drive enough for them to buy their own, but it would probably be easier for them to just buy a regular IC car. Of course, once they bought their own, all their family and friends would want to borrow it! :-)

Sorry about the confusion.

[Clark2008]

41. Ninty percent?

Where's that stat? My husband and I drive more than that just to get to work and home again and we live in the same town in which we work. Work is about 15 miles away for me, plus the stop at the school for the kid and soccer practice. Hubby's work is 20 miles away.

Like I said, this is all in the same town. We choose to live in the more affordable side of town and work where all the businesses are. We can't be the only people. I know, because I'm fighting with tons of them for road space during rush hour.

Now, I agree that most Americans drive less than 200 miles per day, but I can't imagine that 90 percent of Americans drive less than 30. Maybe less than 50 - I'd buy that.

[wtmusic]

46. Here:

'GM's Saturn division was ready with a "green" prototype: The emission-free EV1 ran on electricity, with excellent speed and efficiency. The drawback was that it could only go 60 or 70 miles between rechargings. But most folks (90 percent) drive fewer than 30 miles a day. Lots of people wanted it and, when it became available in 1996, loved it.'

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06230/714317-113.stm

[Jonathan50]

76. The average commuter drives 32 miles per day.. Just for the commute..

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Traffic/story?id=485098&page=1

Life for commuters can be heaven or hell. They report an average one-way commute time of 26 minutes (over an average distance of 16 miles). But the variance is huge: On the best days, the average commute is 19 minutes; on the worst days, 46 minutes. That means traffic, at its worst, can double the average commute time, adding 27 minutes each way.

[Frogger]

4. Political suicide.

And probably not effective, anyway. If they can afford two SUVs, they can afford a little tax. Besides, the different vehicles that you named have different purposes.

clean technology is the answer, IMHO.

[Aviation Pro]

5. Most of them are for entertainment and amusement....

...frankly, I think the country needs to flush some of its dependence and addiction to amusement down the toilet.

[Frogger]

68. Excellent!!!

Let me know how you make out with that. The American public has so much wealth, and needs to spend so little of its time actually getting something to eat, that it has to find something to do with its time.

While, there is no doubt that much energy is wasted in non-essential activities, I always ask what ar YOU willing to give up, in the interests of fairness, of course. Frankly, my life style, while not Spartan by any means, also does not offer much in the way of fat to cut. So I am a little reluctant to advise other people, who are not asking me, as to what they are doing or using that they would be better off without. it seems to get their backs up.

Still, the environment is under something of a strain, and something needs to be done. I have no faith in international treaties. Most of the nations that signed Kyoto have failed to live up to their self-imposed obligations. And China and India, the world's biggest polluters, have not signed on. So that didn't work.

So what is the answer. I don't know, but I suspect that a great portion of it will involve nucleur power. There's always a trade-off. which is worse, environmental melt-down or dangerous wild energy? I don't know.

[Aviation Pro]

71. My flight of fantasy about what we can do with "additional" time...

...we haven't had true space exploration in 33 years. How about a national space effort that returns us back to the Moon and starts on our way to Mars? Most of the "awesome" entertainment and amusement industry, from the Web to roller coasters to robotics, is a derivative of the NASA space programs of the 60s and 70s.

My apologies to Messers. Rutan and Branson, but privatized space flight is still years in the future.

[Frogger]

73. Might not get past

Jesse Jackson. I remember a few years ago he was bitchin' 'cause that money could have gone to help the poor and improve race relations. It's been so long, though, I doubt there ever was a link.

However, I think it is an excellent idea. A lot of new technology did flow from the space program, and who knows, maybe we can terra-form Mars and get new living space. Roller coasters, however, have been around a lot longer than the space program, a lot longer.

[slackmaster]

13. Makes no sense because a person can't drive more than one vehicle at a time

Someone who uses a frugal vehicle for driving to and from work and has an SUV for recreational use on the weekends burns less fossil fuel than someone who has just an SUV.

[Aviation Pro]

15. And yet the purchase of an SUV....

...for amusement, like purchasing a cellphone for "emergencies only," is a fool's errand. Everyone knows what happens with the latter and the same applies to the former.

Rationalization is a wonderful thing for the human mind.

(Proud owner of a 40 MPG vehicle).

[slackmaster]

67. Rather broad brush you are painting with

Rationalization is a wonderful thing for the human mind.

So is egoism.

[krispos42]

21. LOL I just made the same point

Hmmmm... we seem to think alike. Rock on, DU Twin!

:headbang:

[Ioo]

Why not just Tax for more than one kid... this is silly.

If I want 2 gas cars, I will. Make something else and maybe I will buy one, but this post is silly

[Aviation Pro]

20. Silly, or too close to the truth....

...just asking.

[MGD]

17. Dumbest idea I've heard all day. nt

[krispos42]

19. Lost your mind, sorry :-)

How many can they be driving at once? One per driver!

Actually, owning multiple special-use vehicles should cut down on emissions because the family might have, say, two subcompacts as daily commuters, a minivan for family hauling, and a pickup or SUV for bad weather, cargo hauling, or recreational trips. And an RV probably isn't any worse on consumption than the fuel required to fly a family someplace and rent a car and a hotel room.

It would also be punishing the parents if their adult offspring lives with them while working or attending college or whatever.

The off-road vehicles mentioned (boat, ATV, snowmobile, jetski, etc.) all pay taxes when they are registered and when they burn gasoline. Your rep can just raise registration fees on non-automotive vehicles and call it done.

[Aviation Pro]

23. And yet human behavior tells me otherwise....

...how about instead of two or three teenager vehicles we promote clean public transportation to get to school? Perhaps that's what we can do with the revenue produced from choosing to own lots of "freedom" vehicles.

[krispos42]

35. Well, that goes to the larger question of bad public transit in suburbs

And to convienence. Having your own car is just hugely convenient, let's face it. And suburbs don't have the population density or the demand for a nice, convenient, dense bus-line system.

Hell, I'm in a Twin Cities suburb and I would have to walk a mile to catch the bus! I'm on the fringes of bus transport here. I guess I could do that, now that I'm divorced and all that, except that I work nights, and would have to wait three hours AFTER my 10-hour shift to catch a bus home!

[Jonathan50]

38. Given that a significant amount of the total energy use over a vehicle lifetime..

Is spent in the manufacturing process..

Multiple vehicles may end up using *more* energy than having a single vehicle.

[krispos42]

44. But the energy is not wasted

The cars will last longer, or they will be sold used (in good shape) to other people. I think we're okay on that score.

[A HERETIC I AM]

22. I am curious "Aviation Pro" whether or not you would include Civil Aviation in this group?

What are you a "Pro" in, out of curiosity?

Most certainly, the hundreds of thousands of Americans who own and regularly operate light aircraft for fun operate internal combustion engines. Are they included?

You might not have lost your mind, but all the things you mention are already taxed, either through licensing or registration fees or through fuel taxes. They were certainly taxed when they were purchased. (Unless they were bought in say, New Hampshire)

[wtmusic]

25. Or the millions of Americans who engage in nonessential travel

good point, AHIA. :thumbsup:

[Aviation Pro]

30. We already are taxed to a great degree....

...the cost of a gallon of AVGAS approaches or exceeds $5.00/gallon at most facilities (most of it is in the form of a fuel tax surcharge). You can negotiate a break with local FBO for, maybe, a 10% reduction, but if they don't want to, they don't have to.

Here are two examples of high and low end (scroll down to services):

Boca Raton Airport
Flagler County Airport

[A HERETIC I AM]

39. Then you made my point for me....

Recreational and even non-essential use of internal combustion is already taxed.

My point is, don't take out your ire on folks that have 4 cars or an entire motor pool in the garage. They are already paying a tax to own and operate those vehicles.

BTW, I am an aviation enthusiast and a member of the EAA. Light plane owners pay more than their fair share to operate out of public airports. I would venture that is is a larger proportion than boat owners pay for similar accommodation.

The SUV is a dinosaur. It will die it's own death. If folks want to spend money on a damned Excursion and pay through the nose for 12 MPG economy, i say let em. Just stay the hell out of my way so i can see what is up ahead!

[Aviation Pro]

49. Statisically..

...I made the point for me. The amount of flight activity is down from FY 2005 to FY 2006 and, thankfully, so is the accident rate. The correlation is, IMO, to the cost of ownership or rental based on fuel prices (my last fuel bill for a rental was over $200, and I am extremely grateful that I'm actually paid to operate an aircraft for my job).

[jmowreader]

74. Or if you REALLY want to shit a brick...

check out the fuel prices at Teterboro, NJ.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTEB

[Aviation Pro]

78. I know KTEB all too well....

...I think First Aviation is fudging about its full service price.

[jmowreader]

87. I was wondering about that

How can these guys sell fuel for five a gallon when the FBO two doors down has it for seven?

[Ezlivin]

24. Negative or positive reinforcements?

Why not reward people for doing the right thing instead of punishing them for doing the wrong?

Give substantial tax breaks to those who reduce their carbon footprint. Give rebates to those who reduce energy use year over year.

Or tie taxes to energy consumption: Use less, pay less.

I'm sure that people here on DU could think of a hundred ways to positively reinforce good Earth stewardship.

[Ghost in the Machine]

27. I get so sick of this crap. Really. I'm more liberal than you, blah blah blah...

I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I get 22MPG on the highway (with a V8). I have 2 kids of my own, and sometimes have to take other kids too. I have to haul stuff for my business (restaurant). I go get my own produce, my own food supplies, etc.

Mr. Aviation Pro, maybe we should tax planes more. Refresh my memory, what do planes run on? Maybe we shouldn't allow a plane, ANY plane, to take off unless it has every seat in it filled, right? That's a waste of fuel having empty seats, right? RIGHT?

Some people need to get off of their high horses and quit worrying about what someone drives, and start worrying more about defending our Country against the despot dictator and his ruthless crew that is taking over our Government. Do something constructive instead of whining about what I drive.

Ghost

[Aviation Pro]

31. Sorry, Ghost....

... but from what I see in your post, you own one (1) vehicle. My original post said more than two (2). This isn't a debate on the vehicle, but the number of them.

[Ghost in the Machine]

37. ummm.. I also have a Ford F-150 Extended Cab that I use for

hauling off my trash, hauling wood from around my property (12.5 acres) and various other tasks that I won't use my Jeep for..

BTW, sorry for the mean tone in my post, but it just rubs me wrong sometimes. It seems like if you can't afford to run out and buy a Prius or something you're just not liberal enough, or doing enough. I paid $3000 cash for my truck 2 years ago, and $4000 cash for my Jeep 6 months ago. The truck is a '96 and the Jeep is a '97 (fully loaded, all leather, all power, sunroof, Cd player, full time 4 wheel drive, V8, heavy duty towing package, etc.) What I spent on BOTH of them would be a down payment on a new car, for me (crappy credit from medical bills). I don't have any credit cards, just a debit card, and I hate making payments on ANYTHING! If I can't pay cash, I don't need it.

Oh.... and I have a '91 Isuzu Trooper 4WD... a toy for my kids to play with on the trails I made through my property.

Ghost

[MadHound]

32. You would be punishing too many of the wrong people in the process

Like me for instance. I have a Honda passenger car, I have a truck to haul things and help with the farm work. I have a 145cc scooter(that gets 100mpg) for my daily thirty four mile round trip commute. Yet you would penalize me for these vehicles? Puhleeze. Oh, and what are you going to do about those of us who happen to love old antique cars, and who've made a hobby of working on and collecting these vehicles? After all, the overwhelming majority of collectors drive their cars less than 100 miles per year, yet you would penalize us for wasting gas:shrug:

I can understand the point that you're trying to make here, but any such proposal is going to have to be targeted much more carefully than what you're currently proposing.

[gravity]

50. Well you can just tax gas

But good luck getting that passed through congress.

If we actually do tax gas more, conservation and increase efficiency would take care of itself through market forces. It will do everything you propose for your idea, but be much simpler.

[wtmusic]

53. agree

and give tax breaks to lower-income people who need to use gas to make a living.

[gravity]

57. I like the idea of giving everyone gas credits

Like give everyone 10 gallons a week for example, that they are guaranteed to get at a low price. Then allow people to sell their credits on the free market. That way low income people can make money selling their credits and it will give them incentives to increase their efficiency too. At the same time industries who need the fuel the most can still buy gas at the premium price, which ensures that the economy uses it's resources efficiently as a whole.

[wtmusic]

58. that's even better

energy/carbon credits, in general, are an idea we should all get used to. :thumbsup:

[Warren Stupidity]

56. Put the tax at the gas pump where it should have been

since we first got a clue in the early 70's. Use the money NOT to build more highways but instead to build and subsidize mass transit (duh) so that people have alternatives to multiple cars.

[Aviation Pro]

59. Unfotunately....

...that doesn't seem to change behavior. This article from the NY Times, "Drivers Shrug as Gasoline Prices Soar," proves the point.

[Warren Stupidity]

69. Oh nonsense. I read that article.

Gas prices 'soared' to around half of european levels. And behavior did change when the price got above $3. Even the article admits that SUV sales dropped - people actually are making different choices where they actually have a choice.

To a large extent our demand is in-elastic - people have no choice about how to get to work, how to get groceries, how to get people and things from point a to point b - as we have developed, with massive government subsidies, a society entirely dependent on private transportation, on cars.

The article focused on the obvious: we all have to fill our damn cars up.

[LeftyMom]

64. You mean vehicle registration?

:think:

[Aviation Pro]

65. Yes...

...

[LeftyMom]

66. People with multiple vehicles already pay more

And they pay more again for insurance, and maintainance, and in some areas for parking.

To use my family for an example, we have 10 vehicles. I shit you not. Ten.

Now, four of those are project vehicles not currently in operable condition, one is a motorcycle that my dad puts a few hundred miles a year on, three more are vehicles for my father's business (one doubles as his personal vehicle) and the remaining two are my car and my sister's. We already pay out the nose to insure and register all the currently road-worthy vehicles. Let's say a plan to punish households with more than two cars went into effect, would we drive less?

Of course not.

Why? Because it's still five miles to my school, seven to my job and twenty to my kid's dad's house. My sister still would go to school in the opposite direction and work in another county. My father's business would still require vehicles. None of us can share a car and still work. I suppose he could get rid of the project car, the bikes-in-progress and the Harley, but that'd only stop him from taking his bike out on country roads once a week or so in the morning for stress relief, which uses less gas in a year than my fairly efficient wagon does in one fill-up. Hardly worth the effort.

It doesn't matter if you've got one car or fifty. What matters is efficiency and mileage, and we already ding people for those at the gas pump.

[RB TexLa]

70. People pay gasoline taxes in proportion to the amount of gas they use

whether they use it in 1 or 5 vehicles.

[ThomWV]

75. Better Yet - Lets Impose Additional Taxes For People With 2+ Children

A sliding scale, the more children you have the higher tax rates you pay. See anything wrong with that?

[Jonathan50]

77. child != car

There is no comparing the two.

One is an investment in the future.

The other is a depreciating investment.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

88. Yep, lost yer mind ...

It shouldn't matter how many gas-hog SUV's I have, I only spew carbon from one at a time.

The carbon comes from the gasoline, so I'd just tax (more) the gas.

[Throd]

89. I own six cars, but can only drive them one at a time.

So I'm not really polluting more than anyone else.