Angela Merkel appears in a lingerie ad

[tocqueville]

The AFP reports that German Chancellor Angela Merkel appears in a lingerie ad wearing nothing more than a purple matching bra and panties set.

AFP reports that the ad is for an underwear company that is offering a $7 discount on new undies to anyone who trades in an old pair. The slogan of the campaign is, "The country needs new undies."

the electronic advert on a busy road junction in the heart of former West Berlin was certainly causing a stir on the streets, with scores of people taking snapshots of the billboard with cameras or mobile phones. 'I think it's great. Brilliant. It's a positive signal for the economic situation in Germany," said a 54-year-old.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/01/angela-merkel-lingerie-ad_n_194766.html

in reality the ad is about recycling in a campaign to stimulate demand. Germans understand it specially regarding cars, same system than in France : if you recycle your old car, the state gives you 2500€ to buy a "non-polluting" one.

[SharonRB]

1. I'll bet Bush will really want to give her a back rub now

:rofl:

[Chovexani]

2. This is so fucking depressing.

[and-justice-for-all]

3. That looks like a drawing and not a photo to me...

she did not actually pose for the photo. The guy in the yellow shorts is kind of yummy, at least in that ad anyway..

[panader0]

5. You're one of those bulge hunters aren't you?

[JVS]

HAHA! You're attracted to Guido Westerwelle!

[YOY]

4. Not really sexual nor is it insulting.

Kind of flatering actually I am sure for all involved.

[Chovexani]

9. Yeah, so "flatering"

That a powerful, intelligent woman can work her ass off and rise to be leader of her country only to be reduced to a goddamn lingerie model. I bet she dreamed of that when she was in uni. It's always helpful to have these reminders of a woman's real place in the world just in case we forget or get too uppity.

Real fucking empowering. I bet Ms. Merkel is drafting letters of thanks as we speak. Hell, Chimpy was just trying to relieve her tension, she should be thanking him for that impromptu backrub too. That was "flatering" also.

[YOY]

10. and the folks behind her are also german politicians...male and female...in their drawers.

...all drawn to look really in good shape.

So get off the soapbox...c'mon. It's a cheesy ad...and an equal opportunity offender.

[Chovexani]

11. I'm not even fucking bothering with you.

Just go here:

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

HINT: There is quite a bit of difference in depicting a female politician in her underwear and doing the same to male politicians, for all manner of social, cultural and historical reasons having to do with how we see/depict women in power. Even if it's going on in the same ad.

[YOY]

12. Oh chill.

Really. Just chill. You're getting all bent out of shape for nothing on someone who really just thinks the whole thing is silly making fun of German politicians (male and female) and using a pun about changing (underwear) and not some vast anti-feminist conspiracy. The feminists I know and love (namely my wife and mother) would laugh at that silly silly ad.

Taking offense about silly shit that's not even worth it when there is so much real and palpable hatred and bigotry in this world makes us look foolish. It's a common mistake many of us make by finding offense in every thing...Sometimes things are truly stupid shit to laugh off. This is not a vast right wing attempt to smear women in power...more like Germans making fun of their politicans using their own language. Europeans don't have odd hang ups with nudity and sex. One of the admirable cultural traits about them.

and this is the definition of a silly stupid ad...and an equal offender.

Now that Foxx creature saying shit about Mathew Sheppard not being a hate crime...yeah...that's something to get pissed about.

[Two Americas]

16. perhaps you should chill

This is not merely about people being "offended" as though someone had farted at an elegant soiree, and countering any commentary about feminism with remarks such as "finding offense in every thing" and "some vast anti-feminist conspiracy" is the over-reaction here. Then you say in effect "some of my best friends are women, and they are not offended" which is the perennial excuse for bigotry. What are you so "bent out of shape" about?

The other member has a point, whether or not you agree with it, and lecturing and scolding them was not called for.

Do you really believe that we have a problem here of people being offended too easily, or seeing conspiracies everywhere? I would say we have the exact opposite problem: bigoted, authoritarian, sexist remarks - always just for "fun" - are impossible to escape, and when anyone says a peep about them the response is indignant anger and a lecture. So who is it really that is easily offended? Who is it that refuses to chill? Who is it that takes it all too seriously?

"Real and palpable hatred and bigotry" - very, very few here speak out against that, and we see it every day. The few who do are the same ones who might have some insights about this topic.


...

[dustbunnie]

18. Exactly what point did the other poster have? How would the ad concept be any different -

if the Chancellor were a middle-aged, slightly heavy man? It'd still be "tasteless" but eye-catching.

The company sells knickers. They even sell green-worthy knickers. They're offering a 7 euro discount on new undies when you bring them your torn-up old ones. It's a gag campaign working off the German/French recycling concept aiming to green the world. So what's the big deal? It's not like they picked the idea of putting her in underwear out of a hat.

[Two Americas]

22. answer

You ask "how would the ad concept be any different - if the Chancellor were a middle-aged, slightly heavy man?"

That is right. There would be equivalence - if there were equality, which is simply saying that there would be equality if there were equality.

Do you think there is equality?


...

[dustbunnie]

25. In the case of the ad depiction - yes I do.

It's tasteless to portray a head of state in their undies. In that sense, it would be no different if someone put up a drawing of Barrack in his knickers on a billboard. People would be shocked and titter just as much. So yes, it's equal.

Is there something "extra bad" in depicting a middle-aged woman's body in underwear?

[Two Americas]

27. ok

OK.

No discussions of sexist implications in things. Some things are to be seen as "fun" and innocuous and are off limits. That offends people for some reason. You don't see it, and are angry and annoyed that someone else does. Now you want a battle of talking points.

I would ask if we cannot talk about this here, then where? If we cannot talk about in reference to that ad, then when?


...

[dustbunnie]

29. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

I'm not angry or annoyed in the least. It's kind of funny to me actually, that those who are so sensitive to sexism and see it in every little shadow and nuance, are often just as guilty of it themselves. Case in point, a few posts upthread.

Is it because women don't get equal pay for equal work in the US, that American women are supposed to be outraged at the drawing of a female, middle-aged politician in her underwear, in Germany? Cause, I don't get the connection of one to the other at all. Particularly since the reaction to the latter would be the same if it was of a man. Are female politicians off-limits from criticism, caricature, satire, etc..? If so, that's sexist.

[Two Americas]

32. I don't know what you are saying either

I am not "so sensitive to sexism and see it in every little shadow and nuance" and I am not saying that "women are supposed to be outraged" and I am not saying that "female politicians" should be "off-limits from criticism, caricature, satire" and I do not think that is sexist because I do not agree with the right wing "it goes both ways" lie.

What are you posting about?


...

[dustbunnie]

34. I didn't say you see sexism in every shadow. I was referring to the other poster.

And others like her. Go back and read from Post 9. That poster basically says women politicians are off-limits from all the usual bashing/humor male politicians get to experience because we've been kept down by the patriarchy for so long. It particularly offends her because in this case underwear was involved. I find that both sexist and puritanical. That's pretty much it.

I have no idea what on earth the right wing has to do with anything posted in this thread.

[Two Americas]

35. that is who I am defending

I am defending the other poster. I am still not sure why you have a problem with them.

I do not agree that she "basically says women politicians are off-limits from all the usual bashing/humor male politicians get to experience because we've been kept down by the patriarchy for so long." I am certain she is not saying that.

I do not agree that "it particularly offends her because in this case underwear was involved." I am certain she did not say or think that.

I do not agree that her comments are "both sexist and puritanical." I am certain they are not.

What this has to do with the right wing is that the trivializing of discussions about bigotry, racism and sexism with the "overly offended" and "seeing it everywhere" is a tactic created and refined by the right wing propaganda mills, and is used to shut down any and all discussions about bigotry, racism and sexism. That means that in origin, use, and effect it is a right wing debate tactic.


...

[dustbunnie]

38. Can you interpret this for me then, and others I guess.

"Yeah so flattering.

That a powerful, intelligent woman can work her ass off and rise to be leader of her country only to be reduced to a goddamn lingerie model. I bet she dreamed of that when she was in uni. It's always helpful to have these reminders of a woman's real place in the world just in case we forget or get too uppity."

"I'm not even fucking bothering with you.

HINT: There is quite a bit of difference in depicting a female politician in her underwear and doing the same to male politicians, for all manner of social, cultural and historical reasons having to do with how we see/depict women in power. Even if it's going on in the same ad."

Sounds pretty clear to me that the implication is that female politicians deserve more respect and deference because women haven't fared so well under the patriarchy, historically speaking. That it's particularly galling for a woman to have spent years getting an education, and then rising to the pinnacle of power only to be featured in an underwear company's billboard ad, as opposed to a man. I find these comments sexist. I find them prudish as I see nothing wrong with a middle-aged woman's body depicted in underwear. And it IS an underwear ad. The poster seems to have missed that point entirely. Should they have put her in a parka? But if you have some other interpretation, sure, let's hear it.

The poster is upset (I"m guessing upset because of the "I'm not even fucking bothering with you" comment) about this ad, and yet Merkel raised eyebrows when she appeared at a public event in a very low-cut, boob-hugging dress. Is that a more appropriate way for a female politician to present herself, than being portrayed in her knickers by an underwear company? She obviously has no qualms about showing off her body. Isn't she herself playing to the patriarchy's tune by dressing in a sexy provocative way and not in more demure attire like men do at such black tie events?

There are no right wingers here so there's no need to bring them up. No one is trying to shut down conversation by disagreeing with the posts of other people. Everything here is an opinion. In fact, YOY was simply stating his/her opinion when the offended poster basically told him/her to "shut up." In a much less pleasant way.

[Two Americas]

40. disgusted, frustrated, exhausted

Why cannot we discus the possibility that this is in practical function a "reminder of a woman's real place in the world just in case we forget or get too uppity?"

You say "sounds pretty clear to me that the implication is that female politicians deserve more respect and deference because women haven't fared so well under the patriarchy, historically speaking." yet that is s distortion of the other member's post. She said "all manner of social, cultural and historical reasons having to do with how we see/depict women in power." Social, cultural AND historical.

The other poster did not say anything prudish or sexist. That you are imagining. The other member said nothing about middle age being the issue. You are dubbing that in.

I would imagine that the other poster is disgusted, frustrated, exhausted. I know that I am. Not because I saw a middle age woman in underwear, but rather because of the boycott on discussing how women are diminished and demeaned without someone getting outraged by that and insisting that people are being too sensitive, too easily offended, are being prudish and all of the other things you have ascribed to the other member without any objective evidence for those characterizations of what they said.

No oin4e said there are any right wingers here. I said that right wing arguments are being posted and too rarely countered, Are you claiming that since no one here would self-identify as a right winger, that therefore there are no right wing arguments are being made? Who cares what a person calls themselves or whether they identify with Team Blue or Team Red? It is the arguments that matter, not the personal identification.

Odd that you make the right wing argument about identity on the one hand when it comes to persecuted and disadvantaged groups, but then turn around and say that is a person does not identify as a right winger their arguments must not be. Now I am wondering if there is a connection there - "do not identify as a woman in your politics, but identifying with Team Blue is extremely important and tells us everything about you."

I love how one poster tells another in essence to shut up, and then when the person objects to that THEY are accused of telling the first person to shut up.

Pointing out sexist remarks is not telling a person to shut up. Telling the person to STOP pointing out sexist remarks IS telling the person to shut up.



...

[YOY]

46. Actually Chovexani was really rude to me.

REALLY. POINTLESSLY. RUDE.

Insinuating that I am some kind of woman-in-power hating sexist.

Brushing me off as if I should have found that ad to be the most insulting misogynistic thing with a "I'm not even bothering with you" comment as if I need some serious fucking rehabilitation for daring to not find the ad vulgar or demeaning to women in power.

Apparently you're the only one who doesn't see that.

[dustbunnie]

50. Your disgust, frustration, and exhaustion is apparent.

We can discuss anything on a message board, but the offended poster wasn't particularly interested in discussing anything. She was just plain rude. There are a number of women on DU who are exceptionally rude when it comes to discussing anything to do with gender politics.

We're just going around in circles and don't seem to connect on any one point so it's useless to continue. I find it difficult to understand what you're trying to say.

There aren't hidden meanings in every picture. In this particular case, the message was "bring us your old knickers and we'll give you a rebate on your new ones." It was politically motivated in that it made a connection with the government's stimulus technique to recycle old cars. Had Angela Merkel been Andreas Merkel, HE would have been up there on the billboard. Underwear company = ads depicting people in underwear. I'm satisfied that there was no intent to demean women. You aren't. Oh well.

[YOY]

47. The last paragraph is EXACTLY what I did.

and you are EXACTLY right in your interpretation of what upset me.

[dustbunnie]

52. I know.

:)

Well, this is enough of wacky DU for me for one night!

You have a good rest of the evening!

[Alcibiades]

41. There's more gender equality in Germany than here

That's for sure.

[Quantess]

42. Chovexani made her point. Don't say she doesn't have a point, because she does.

You don't agree, fine. You don't have to. But don't belittle her for pointing out something that you feel is irrelevant.

Personally I think the ad is silly fun, like you do. I don't share Chovexani's offense at the ad, but I don't think it's right for anyone to declare no you shouldn't be offended.

[YOY]

44. Chovexani can be insulted until the cows come home. That's his/her right.

I just didn't like the insinuation that I am some form of mysogynistic sexist because I don't find it offensive at all...moreover I find it silly.

[Quantess]

45. I was replying to dustbunnie's post.

Dustbunnie, who self-identifies as female, accused Chovexani of not having a point.

YOY--like you, I do not have a problem with this ad, and I don't see it as being sexist. However, I don't think anyone has a right to tell others that they have no reason to be offended, especially not when the offended person has given his/her argument. At that point, it is a matter of agreeing or disagreeing.

I happen to agree with your opinion on the ad, but I don't think it's right to get offended at people (in this case Chovexani) taking offense at things that don't offend you.

So, you find it silly. Has it occurred to you that you just don't understand where that person is coming from, and that that person may have experiences that are different from yours?

[YOY]

48. Oh yes it has occured to me but the method of delivery was tactless and insulting!

The insinuation that I am some kind of sexist because I do not find this ad insulting to women in power was over the top.

[Quantess]

49. I didn't see that part.

Is there some drama you are imagining, or did I just not see it?

Not that I care.
This all looks like a tempest in a teapot, to me.

[YOY]

51. Truly...and I let a whole bunch of nothing piss me off.

It's the "I'm not even fucking bothering with you." line...I shouldn't even care but I have a boring long night of waiting for a phone call from the other side of the world tonight...

[dustbunnie]

54. When did I ever say she didn't have a point?

Obviously I accepted that she did, since I asked what it was. I haven't belittled anyone either.

And I'm not sure where you got that I thought the ad was silly fun. I said I find it kind of in bad taste to present a head of state in their skivvies in a billboard ad.

I just don't get where it's particularly demeaning to women, and that's all I've discussed in the sub-thread. Is it belittling to have a different perception; do all feminists have to march in lock-step?

[Quantess]

55. in your post #18

"Exactly what point did the other poster have?" which you posted well after chovexani made her arguments regarding her offense at the ad.

I think the ad is silly fun. I apologize for diminishing your opinion on this important matter.

And no, I don't think it's belittling for women to have different perceptions, which is of course what I've been saying this whole time.

"Do all feminists have to march in lock-step?"
You tell me.

[dustbunnie]

63. After I wrote that first sentence, I asked for clarification of her point.

It isn't belittling to ask for more details concerning a person's POV. Telling people to fuck off is usually a good way to end all discussion however.

You didn't diminish me in any way, but your patronizing tude has been noted and good for a giggle. Perhaps someone was enjoying a few glasses of wine last night.
:)

If the poster was upset about the ad, I hope she doesn't see the rest of the politico-art the OP posted downthread.

[YOY]

20. When you find insult under in everything pretty soon nobody cares what you think anymore.

It's what the right used against us. I remember a sort of rallying cry around things many teenagers and twenty somethings like that were comedy a few years ago that one of us found insult in...ob boy did the righties love it.

When you find little insults everywhere (real and imagined) you belittle the big (very glaringly real) insults.

And take a look at the ad. Plenty of German male politicians flateringly drawn in their drawers.

What am I bent out of shape about? Having a DUer accuse me of being a sexist about the silliest ad I have seen all year.

[Two Americas]

28. by that logic

By that logic we cannot talk about anything of any significance. What if sexism IS everywhere? What if understanding sexism means that this needs to be pointed out? Can we not see it where it is, because that would be seeing it in too many places? Must anyone trying to discuss bigotry, racism, or sexism be described as "being offended" or "insulted" to trivialize what they are saying and shut down any discussion? That is why the right wing propagandists invented those clever little phrases about pc and offended and seeing it everywhere and the like - to shut down any discussion.

People care more the more you talk about something, not less. Just because the right wingers mock and ridicule us that is not excuse for you to do that. This "don't go too far if you want people to support your cause" logic can only serve the right wing and promote bigotry. No one is going to stop listening who had any interest in listening on the first place. Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh are the ones saying "no one will take you seriously when..." Do you think either of them, or their audience, would listen under any circumstances?

Fear of right wing backlash is not a reason to stay silent, let alone lecture others. Promoting their "pc" and "offended" and "seeing insults everywhere" bullshit does not defeat them - as you imply by suggesting that if we discuss sexism we are making the right wingers happy.



...

[YOY]

43. That's totally not the logic I was using. My point is that it's not even sexist to me!

It's probably not even sexist or demeaning to most people. It probably doesn't even register.

And that by my inability to find what the hell is so insulting in this Chovexani is calling me a sexist! I take some offense to that. I tell him/her to chill out with the insults and then you jump on me for daring to defend myself against this goddamn nonsense.

Sorry. It's a stupid ad with German politicians in their Drawers! Some are male and some are female. They're not licking each other's genitals or shoving sex toys up each other's orifices! They're standing around in their underwear! Nothing sexual or sexually demeaning about it! The artist was even kind enough to not draw any of them with the natural droopage and body flaws most humans have!

Are we so sure it's sexism and not just semi-crude humor? I mean it doesn't seem to be pulling any punches on either gender and isn't really insulting anyone's physique.

I'll trivialize this ad and moreover I will trivialize anyone's silly offense at this ad all I want because the ad is not sexist...not insulting...it's just silly.

Some people do see insults everywhere. There are none here. Sorry. End of story. Acting like there are is just silly and this is just a silly ad. Acting like things like this are big deals when they are not is what gets us in trouble. It's not even a small deal.

I spent plenty years of my life growing up and going to Catholic School in the midwest with right wingers telling me what was appropriate and what isn't. I don't need the left getting their drawers in a know over similar shit and to stand up on a soapbox and tell me I am a bad person because I am not finding vulgarity in this...tight and left both do it for different reasons...but all pointless in the end when there really isn't anything to get insulted about.

I know what his hateful and what is derogatory. This isn't. This isn't even mildly worth getting miffed about. I do not see the insult anywhere. It puts both genders of politicians in underwear for a gimmicy add. It's not sexist...it's just somewhat (equal opportunity) bawdy and a bit cheesy.

I recall a picture in the Daily Show book that had all of the supreme court in the nude...most unflateringly. Is that sexist too? No.

But if you or any other poster want to stand up on a soapbox and call anyone who doesn't see this as sexist or insulting...excuse me if I just don't take it seriously.

There is real true and serious sexism and hatred in this world. Getting worked up over nothing is not helpful. It's hurtful because nobody wants to deal with someone who's always insulted by everything. End of story.

[Two Americas]

67. that tells us nothing

Of what possible relevance is it that you do not think something is sexist or that the majority of people do not?

The majority of people in the country have been voting Republican. Does that mean we all should, and that those who are "offended" by the Republicans are wrong because they were in the minority?

"How dare you call me a sexist" when someone tries to discuss gender inequality is a close relative to the "reverse racism" arguments. It is a tactic to prevent any discussion or consideration of the issue.

You are presuming that the only objection anyone could have about this ad - but more importantly about the discussion here regarding the ad, which is what I am talking about - must be motivated by prudery. There is no evidence to support the assertion you are making about that.

You are presuming that this is merely about people feeling "insulted." There is no evidence to support that assertion, either.



...

[ColbertWatcher]

6. The Germans seem to be obsessed with Angela ever since ... ahem ...

... those nude shots of her hit the tubes.

Google them yourself

[eShirl]

7. looks like a swimwear ad to me

and definitely not a photograph

[Canuckistanian]

8. German speakers. How would you translate that?

I make it out to be "We'll do anything to stimulate demand"

Am I right?

[tocqueville]

15. that's right translated

it's a stimulus package.

this is of course a second degree joke that few here seems to understand

[Canuckistanian]

19. Yes, a "double entendre"

I get it.

[tocqueville]

23. exactly

one could have taken the picture of Obama in shorts and added the text "I'll do anything to stimulate America", to incite Americans to take actions to save the country. But it would probably have been misunderstood...

[marshall]

64. I'm sure we'll see ads like that before all is said and done

They've sneaked in beefcake shots of Obama in jogging shorts and shirtless or in a bathing suit. With all the Obama chicken fingers, Obama chocolate/vanilla swirl ice cream, and Obama candy on the market overseas, I am ready to weather any advertising campaign that capitalizes on the president's popularity.

[dustbunnie]

13. I pity the poor bruno banani employees who have to handle the "old" knickers.

:puke:

[tocqueville]

17. because you really think that Germans are so dirty...

that they don't wash their undies real clean before returning them to fabric recycling... ?

or what do you exactly mean ?

[dustbunnie]

21. Oh I'm well aware of the hygiene habits of Germans.

I come from such a family. Having roomed with guys during my uni days, I also know some men simply don't care if their undies end up hanging together by a thread and that's the state they end up in before a new batch is purchased. There are other issues I won't get into.

Perhaps it's just my inherited, clean freak German nature that makes me squeamish about touching the cast-off knickers of strangers, even if they've been laundered.

I've also spent a better part of my adult life in NYC so I'm cynical enough to believe that there are people out there who would absolutely bring in their soiled pantaloons. These types of people exist in Germany as well. Again, I don't envy the emps.

[tocqueville]

24. you'll always find exceptions

but the way you formulated it initially as it would be the rule. Besides the recycling can be done through bags, so nobody has to touch anything before it goes into laundering and shredding...

[dustbunnie]

26. Yes, I suppose you're right. Didn't think of that!

I guess they would accept undies in bags, or perhaps they have a bin you dump them in without anyone's having to handle them, so that would alleviate the stress for someone like me. :D

[tabasco]

31. Jeepers, don't you have a sense of humor?

Offended by a little joke. Boohoohoo.

[snake in the grass]

14. I wouldn't want her undies.

[tabasco]

30. All those great German shampoo commercials and now THIS!

WTF happened over there???

[Quantess]

33. This ad, I am ashamed to admit, made me LOL.

I know I'm supposed to be outraged, but I laughed.

It looks like it's something from MAD magazine.

[uppityperson]

36. I think it is funny, that underneath their clothing, even our leaders wear undies

musing now, wondering if they are nude underneath that

[frogcycle]

37. yes, but they don't have genitals

they are like Ken and Barbie

[rcrush]

39. because they are aliens.

all the world leaders are part alien.

[JVS]

65. Except for that guy in red shorts up there, they are aliens. Gregor is ok though.

[Overseas]

53. K&R !! //nt

[bridgit]

56. dumb-ass shit

[Quantess]

57. in your underwear? You apparently are not a Smart Ass.

[bridgit]

58. cute ~

[Quantess]

59. Oh yeah. I forgot to ask why tocqueville's post so offended you in the first place.

[bridgit]

60. Perhaps it is my understanding of Merkel having survived a 'bush neck attack'...

My sense is that as a result she has suffered enough otherwise I don't give a shit sorry

[tocqueville]

61. it has been far "worse" before....

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,608258,00.html

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1086936,00.jpg

This is not the first time that the processions have shown Merkel in a less-than-flattering light. This float from 2008 shows Merkel sharing a diaper with Kurt Beck, the former chairman of the Social Democratic Party, the partner of Merkel's Christian Democratic Party in the ruling grand coalition.

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,1438714,00.jpg

A float being prepared for this year's procession in Cologne currently depicts a nude Merkel. The float shows Merkel before (left) and after she has her "problem zones" lifted, such as the plunging economy and government debt, to name a few. Organizers have decided to put a bikini on the float's figure. Some are disappointed by the decision.

Germans have a complete different approach to those things and anal humour is standard since Mozart.
Even if politicians are mocked on Carnival Floats in France, they don't use to be naked...

I can imagine that all this is unthinkable in the US even in New Orleans with the same tradition...

[bridgit]

62. 'anal humor'? Well, why didn't you say so...

My sense is that, however, 'anal humor' has been around since 'the fart'

[tocqueville]

66. So Jeebus was into kiddie porn....?

‘Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them..." has got a whole new meaning....

interesting picture since she is obviously pregnant...