I'm suspicious that the church community garden is an evangelical trap

[NickB79]

So, being an apartment dweller, I have no place to grow my own vegetables every year. This is even more of a hardship because I was raised on a farm where I was in charge of planting, weeding, and harvesting massive amounts of vegetables since I was 12 years old. And I loved it.

So, long story short I found a local church that has an open plot in their community garden. Reading their website I see they are evangelical, to the point they believe in laying of hands to cure illnesses and speaking in tongues when possessed by the holy spirit. Whatever, I want to garden so I send them my $30 application fee.

I went out yesterday to start preparing the soil, and within 10 minutes a man comes walking over to my plot. He starts discussing soil issues with me, what vegetables I'm planning on growing, etc. Then he asks me "Have you accepted Jesus into your heart?"

Damn it!!! I joked around with my friends about this but didn't take it seriously.

I was polite but basically ignored him while I raked the soil and planted some potatoes. After 30 MINUTES he asked if I wanted to pray with him! At that point I told him I didn't have time to talk with him, as I had to pick my wife up from work soon and still had a few rows to go. He requested 2 minutes more to talk, but 10 min. later I told him enough and he left.

I'm going back tomorrow. If this happens again I'm done with this garden and will demand my money back.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

1. They always have an angle.

[LeftyMom]

2. Suggestion: "I like to use this as my quiet time to be alone with God."

Maybe you really like to be alone with yourself and your rutabagas, but if it's a little white lie that gets you some peace, maybe it's worth a shot.

Telling fundies not to talk about god is like telling them not to breathe. Sometimes the only way to get them to shut up if you want to keep the peace is to smile and nod just enough to let them think you're one of them.

[Occam Bandage]

7. That's a no-go, I think. Lying works for individual interactions,

but if they think you're one of them, and if they see you gardening repeatedly but don't see you in Church, they'll think you're a lapsed/non-practicing Christian. That means they'll significantly increase their efforts to get you in church on Sunday; it's a lot easier to get a lapsed Christian (who still sees him/herself as part of the Christian community) into a church than it is to get a nonbeliever.

[LeftyMom]

9. Good point.

I was raised Catholic, so I'm really not used to that full court press that the more Evangelical Protestant sects apply to converts.

Personally I find that sort of thing entirely distasteful, and I'm always shocked on some level when I realize that they actually enjoy it.

[Webster Green]

17. "Maybe you really like to be alone with yourself and your rutabagas"

Reminds me of a Zappa song ('Call Any Vegetable') :P

[provis99]

3. yep. It is an evangelical trap.

You should have known that it was right from when you noticed they said they were an evangelical church. The very definition of evangelical is that they try and push their stupid religion on you whether you want it or not. Good luck in getting your money back, though.

[Why Syzygy]

4. I don't blame you.

That's a pity. I've had success just telling someone up front how I feel. I happen to be a believer now, but wasn't at that time. I ASSURED this woman that I was content, and she didn't continue to press. What I also know from experience with these types, is even if you say you ARE/HAVE, there is always a next step, such as rapture, laying on hands, 'mission' work, etc. etc. etc. It is never ending. Why not explain that you paid a fee to garden and are not interested in any further discussions?

Planting organic?

[Occam Bandage]

5. It probably is, but they don't see it that way.

They see it as a service they offer for their community. They also believe, as evangelicals, that spreading the love of God is a service they offer their community as well. It's not unreasonable for them to believe that someone who has come to their church would be receptive to their message.

Of course, you are not. I'd tell them you already are happy with your spiritual life and feel you are right by God, that your faith is a private matter, and that you would like to garden without interruption. If they do not comply, I would then demand a refund.

I would suggest, though, that perhaps you should not go to an evangelical Christian establishment if you have a problem with people talking to you about religion.

[Hello_Kitty]

16. Yep. And it doesn't help that they get a big ol' tax deduction for it.

The legitimation of religious proseletyzing is enshrined in our government.

[Tom Kitten]

6. Sounds like the 30 dollars just to plant on their land had hidden fees

What do you think they would they say if you told them you're just not interested and just want to grow vegetables without them prosletyzing?

[parasim]

8. Trap? What trap? There is no trap. They're evangelicals.

Sure, they consider themselves "Fishers of Men" and they're using their garden plots as bait, but it's no trap. Not if you understand what the word evangelical means.

[tkmorris]

10. Does it mean "I have an excuse not to abide by the same rules of conduct as everyone else"?

[Occam Bandage]

14. If you saw someone standing unawares on train tracks,

and saw that there was a train coming down the line, I think anyone would think it was an acceptable part of the "rules of conduct" to inform that someone that they would be best to get out of the way of the train.

Evangelical behavior is entirely rooted in evangelical belief. So long as they think that God is going to eternally punish anyone who has not accepted Jesus into their heart, they are going to believe that it is perfectly normal and in fact admirable to harass strangers about their religious beliefs.

[tkmorris]

20. The difference is

Their "oncoming train" is perceived by most people as delusion. No, don't give me stats about how most people "believe in a God", I am talking about most people's belief that there is no imperative to force your religious views on others who do not ask for them. People saved from your anecdotal train generally would agree there is a train, as would onlookers. Such is not the case here and while I can see why an Evangelical feels themselves justified in their actions, likewise would a mentally ill person feel justified in warning people of the imminent alien invasion. The fact that they, themselves, FEEL justified does not mean they are.

[Occam Bandage]

22. Yes, it is a delusion. I don't disagree.

Incidentally, I also don't think the truth values of their beliefs are relevant. Claims and counterclaims regarding justification aside, their behavior will continue to exist in its present aggressive form so long as they believe that Hell is a real and pressing threat to all humanity. But anyway, slightly different discussion.

I agree that they're not justified in their behavior. My point was only one of mindset. They don't think they have an excuse to be jerks; they think they're the only people who care enough to not be jerks.

[raccoon]

74. And that is what really pisses me off about them.

They think they're superior because they're "saved."

It's like they think, "I'm good, and you're....inferior at best."

[Nosmanic]

11. My story

This reminds me of when I was going to community college and very lost and depressed. I went to church, not during mass, tried talking to a priest but he wasn't interested at all in helping me in faith, funny I would have done anything for a little guidance in life. But I guess that's the way it is when you have nothing no one cares about you, I guess when I get married and I have a family then they will be like "Have you accepted Jesus as your personal God and saviour" and they care about is power and themselves.

I would be more irritated at the 30 buck because ok they're evangelists so there going to preach to you but that and $30 that's a little much and for what a plot of dirt that will be a nice garden come-on.

[bottomtheweaver]

30. That's a shame

but you have to realize that priests are human. Okay that's pretty obvious at this point, but sometimes they do get tired, distracted, or cranky. My wife's late uncle was a priest, a good one, but just an ordinary priest and I can tell you the toilers in the field live a life that is unbelievably thankless and in most respects powerless.

So, sometimes you have to try back later. Of course that's useless advice to anybody who's gotten a cold shoulder at a time they really needed help. Incidentally there's a very similar episode in Angela's Ashes by Frank McCourt, and he never forgot it either.

[niyad]

64. welcome to DU

[old mark]

12. Just me, but I would look for some other non-religious garden

plot, if such exists in your area. I would not have given these people a nickle. I have no use for them and don't want to spend any time listening to their BS.
I hope for the best for your situation - maybe they will let you alone.

mark

[Quantess]

13. Let it be a lesson to you.

I'm sorry that happened to you. I like the idea of community gardens, but, like you, I had no idea that sometimes there are strings attached. I'm completely naiive about how community gardens work, even though gardening is my main hobby.

Maybe you could say that the gardening makes you feel closer to Jesus, and that you need time alone to get over (insert trauma). It is not a stretch to say that gardening brings out the spiritual in a person, so they should understand this.

[ClayZ]

15. Make a sign that says:

"I have taken a vow of silence".

[BuyingThyme]

18. I think you may have the makings of a good movie.

Hang in there for a bit.

[Quantess]

24. Yeah, maybe a bad Lifetime Channel movie, starring Treat Williams and Jennie Garth.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. .

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tuvor]

27. Aren't you cute.

[cherish44]

23. A tip I learned in self defense class

If someone's giving you unwanted attention, start picking your nose, talking to yourself, swatting at imaginary bugs, scratching your butt a lot, anything that's kind of weird or gross. They'll probably leave you alone....

[earth mom]

25. This is EXACTLY why the Faith Based Office Obama took over from * is total bullshit.

:grr:

[NeedleCast]

61. Sorry...local garden plot at a churchand the Faith Based Office have what to do with each other?

[quiller4]

26. Whenever something like that happens to me, I invite the

individual to pray the rosary with me. I am Catholic but that isn't a devotion I pratice usually but I carry my late grandmother's rosary in my purse because I like having something of hers with me. One look at the beads and they run.

[madrchsod]

29. the sign of the anti christ------the ROSARY!!!

that`s funny.........

[madrchsod]

28. i`m a believer in the teachings of christ but these guys piss me off

what i do when they come to the door is basically tell them i believe in christ`s message and that i disagree with their views...we politely say goodbye

tell them with a bit of :sarcasm: that you`re not "sowing seeds on the rocks"......then laugh

[get the red out]

31. Can you be up front with the guy?

Just tell him you aren't interested in his religion, you paid your fee and you are there to garden and if he wants to talk soil and sun that's fine, but that's all. Is it a situation where that would cool his heels or would they find a way to force you out of the garden? If you paid your fee and there are not "religious" requirements on participation maybe brutal but polite honesty would work.

It is probably time for everyone to simply be polite but firm with folks like this and maybe we can start a new trend.

[Why Syzygy]

58. I'm thinking this too...

I know their tricks, and they have a LIST, like a guide to "lead someone to the Lord". Many times it is a setup from the very first.

But if no one ever calls them on the BS, what's the motivation for them to knock it off? Stand up to them and tell them to butt out in whatever terms fit the occasion. Start a trend to clue them that the only REAL commandment is to love. Not very loving to badger folks.

When I was "lost"/nonbeliever, some of my family got *worried* and what not. I firmly told them if they were concerned about my soul burning, they should take it up with their God. It was his idea. Now that I am a follower of the Way, I do not believe in the eternal torture. Not even. Turns out my son still criticizes me even though I've joined his campground. Still not good enough. Yeah, I worry about him.

[get the red out]

59. Yes, we are all co-habiting

We all live in this country and our towns and cities together, so if we keep on running we really just validating their pestering ways, they figure they can move on to the next target and not see that what they are doing just doesn't work with some folks, nor does it run them away. They are people too, being honest and direct is ok!

My Mother droned on and on one time reciting who she was sure would burn in hell (hopefully to her) in her family and when I told her I didn't believe in hell she was stunned, she said "you don't believe in God", and I told her "No, I don't believe in hell, I do believe in God". She was freaked, she couldn't envision that. (I hope people don't waste space flaming me for admitting to that belief. Some people around here tend to stay stuck in rage at anyone who isn't atheist.)

[Why Syzygy]

63. I couldn't be a Christian

if I believed in hell. There are a lot of others that don't. Plenty of information on line. It isn't just a wild guess on my part. It did always seem inconsistent to me, though. I think the Catholic church had a lot to do with inserting that particular idea. It isn't in the original documents if you investigate the language.

Here's a heretical thought for you. I believe the "great commission" (instruction to proselytize) was accomplished in the first century by Paul. He wrote that the gospel had been preached to all nations! It wasn't an ongoing commandment like the one that tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

[KittyWampus]

72. apparently being honest in a firmly polite way is beyond many DU'ers capability.

[Vickers]

32. Wear headphones.

:thumbsup:

[Berry Cool]

33. The fact of the matter is, you should have known what you were in for from the start.

Evangelicals are evangelicals. There are no free lunches with them from the spiritual standpoint. Everything they DO is a recruitment attempt. This is just the way they are. You don't have to like it or believe in it or think it makes sense. You can't expect that they will be otherwise. Renting a garden plot from them and being surprised and upset that they're trying to evangelize on you is like going on a swimming outing and then being surprised and disappointed that you got wet.

And it's true--they're not going to stop at the "have you accepted Jesus" thing. Even if you said yes, they'd then want you to put your "faith" into "action" by doing A, B and C with them, which would lead to D, E and F. In for a dime, in for a dollar. I'm honestly surprised you are acting so shocked and ripped off to learn this.

If you need a place to plant a garden that is not your own and you don't want any strings attached, good luck. Even a community garden run by a town council might require you to, for example, donate some of what you grow to the local food bank. But at least they wouldn't proselytize you.

If you don't want religion preached at you, don't rent a garden plot from a church. That simple.

[OneGrassRoot]

36. I have to agree....

This subject is at the forefront of my thoughts this morning as I just finished a project which dealt with this issue.

Faith-based institutions are doing a lot of good in the communities, but at what cost? People do need to know and be aware that if they are getting anything from a faith-based organization (even if you're paying to use their facilities, etc.), they do indeed have an agenda. And, they usually aren't trying to hide it; indeed, that's what evangelical and faith-based means.

Church groups help in shelters and food banks and such, but recipients of their kindness must also endure (if it's not already their belief system) sermons and proselytizing. If you're starving, it's probably worth it, but the whole idea of there not being a more secular way of dispensing kindness and grace bothers me tremendously.

[Bill McBlueState]

54. "don't rent a garden plot from a church"

It depends on the church. I bought a share at a CSA run by a Roman Catholic convent, and there's been no mention of religion in any of their promotional materials.

Some church-based organizations** seem content to be a part of a diverse world. Only a fraction of them feel the need to push their views on everyone.

(** this is certainly not the case for the Roman Catholic church in general, but it seems to be the case for many of its religious orders)

[WVRICK13]

34. Hate to Say It

BUT, you should have seen that one coming.

[Buzz Clik]

35. Tell him to piss off. "Jesus was a carpenter. The disciples were fishermen. I garden. Go away."

[Lars39]

37. Is the land the plot is on already paid for?

Have they figured out a way at $30 per plot to make the payment? What would Jesus charge per plot? This is either a special program that the church is funding or it's a money maker for them. Funny, I don't remember him charging for any of the food or wine he gave to people.

[mod mom]

38. wear an ipod

[Ilsa]

47. That's what I thought. Just be polite and tell them you are listening to

a seminar you need for work. It's too bad that it's too late the OPer can't pretend to be deaf.

[Turk 182]

39. Works with Jehovah's Witnesses

Tell him you're Jewish, one of God's chosen, and are already saved. This always works with the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[pnutbutr]

40. blessed by satan sign

at the edge of your plot should ward off any evangelicals

[bighart]

42. And since it is their property he is on I would suggest being respectful

or he may be asked to leave. There is no reason to be hateful or intentionally confrontational on THEIR property. How would you like it if someone you invited onto your property insisted on posting a sign supporting something you you found repulsive on your property?

[pnutbutr]

43. how about if he

just planted a giant dildo and attached some condoms as leaves to make it look like it was growing out of the ground? Pretty funny, right?

[bighart]

44. I would agree with that your suggestions were humors

if we were not discussing doing so on private property that does not belong to the OP.

[bighart]

41. In my experience if you are upfront with them they will back off.

If they are truly interested in serving the community by offering this then they will respect your position and not try to force anything IF you make your feelings known. The ball is in your court and you can either be honest and forthright and things should ease up, be silent and you will probably continue to be approached. You may still find tracts and literature at your plot site even if you are up front but only you know if that is too much for you to endure. The church is doing what they feel they should do,and it is after all their property.

[gratuitous]

45. Come garden at our church

Our community garden is just that: A community garden. We turned the land over to the City, they piped in the water, volunteers put up the cyclone fence, brought in the Zoo Doo fertilizer, and prepared the beds. We put up a nice little archway over the entrance, and are sharing two plots, one with the homeless shelter that rents our basement for a buck a month, and the other to share with the local neighbors-helping-neighbors agency.

If this community garden is similarly sponsored by your local government, find out the proper agency or bureau, and complain to them. If the garden is sponsored, maintained, and supported by the church and its congregation, then yes, register your concern with the church's governing body. I'm not sure whether the fellow who approached you belongs to that church (it's probably a good bet), but you paid your money, they need to honor their customer.

[LanternWaste]

46. I work with an evangelica...

I work with an evangelical and have told her quietly and politely, but in no uncertain terms that I simply do not wish to discuss religion or politics with her or anyone at work. I smile, I say 'please', and I say 'thank you'. It seems to work...

[krabigirl]

48. This is why I keep fundies and everything associated with them at arms' length.

Their sole purpose IS to evangelize.

[NashVegas]

49. How Can It Be a Trap If You Knew What You'd Be Getting Into?

If evangelicals will come up to you in the supermarket, how on earth can you expect them refrain from trying to "save" you on their own property?

I suggest you ask for your money back, and start a Meet-Up group in your area for the purpose of finding land to rent for a non-affiliated garden.

[Rebubula]

50. Leave...

...get your money back, but try not to be pissy about it. Though they may be idiots (in my personal opinion) - unless they are being rude or making hate-filled comments, you should not be rude to them.

You knew they were evangelicals and that this is how they operate...kind of like the snake story - 'you knew I was a snake when you picked me up!'

Anyway, I hope that you find a way to grow your garden without dealing with these disillusioned people. I love gardening; it is my Zen time.

[Gormy Cuss]

51. It sounds like you handled it well.

I'd do the same, right down to demanding the money back and making it clear why I was doing so, all in the politest of terms of course. If I had a plot at an evangelical church I'd assume that some would try to proselytize but I'd also expect him to back off after a polite brushoff.

It's too bad that you don't have a real community garden near you.

[Sequoia]

52. They'll keep pestering you until you accept.

I remember those types pestering my dad. I was so embarrassed and wanted to tell them to leave my dad alone. He finally wouldn't come to visit us because of it for awhile.

[Union Label]

53. Everything at any church is a trap

use them for what you can get but don't listen to their crap.

[SecularMotion]

55. The next time he pulls that crap

smack him in the head with the shovel and bury him on the spot. $30 is a good price for a burial plot.

:sarcasm:

[KittyWampus]

73. thanks for making this thread worthwhile. You made me LOL

[Ioo]

56. Just say, "I am have a great relationship with God, and we are doing just fine"

If you tell them that you are good, and that you see faith as a personal relationship between god and you, in short, NO I pray just fine by myself.

And move on, if he presses, say...I mean it, I think faith is PERSONAL, and right now, you are interrupting my church service.

[BoneDaddy]

57. Heretic Hotel

Non Christians get in but they don't get OUT!!!

[NNN0LHI]

60. Hope you kissed that $30 application fee goodbye

:hi:

[Vinca]

62. Trying convincing him you're Satan.

Maybe they'll run for their lives and leave all the garden plots for you.
:rofl:

[Lex]

65. If Jesus is so great, why do they have to push him down people's throats?

That's been my question for a long, long time.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. Oh For God's Sake Get A Grip.

Thin skinned much?

Just politely tell him that you aren't that religious and are just there because you love gardening, and be done with it!

Oy vey always such incessant whining here.

[Dreamer Tatum]

67. You mean someone tried to minister to you on church property?

Really?

You mean someone had the NERVE to approach you on church grounds and ask you about some laughable Sky Daddy?

That shocks me. Where can you go these days to get AWAY from people like that?

:eyes:

[Chovexani]

70. Oh, the humanity.

Next thing you know, people will try to upsell fries at McDonald's.

[Morrisons Ghost]

68. Just lie

And say "Yes I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal saviour,but I am very busy at the moment...God Bless You Brother!":evilgrin:

[Chovexani]

69. Fail. Just...fail.

This is like going to a bar for a drink and then bitching about loud music being played there.

In the words of Brian Kinney, oh look, a martyr. Shall we set you on fire, then?

[KittyWampus]

71. A lot of DU'ers have a severe lack of inter-personal skills. JUST BE HONEST.

You sign up for a plot through a church program and then complain when others there want to share their faith?

And apparently, you can't just tell them politely you have no interest and just want to tend to your garden plot?

YOU are the one with the problem.