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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:42 AM
Original message
Give Everyone Healthcare By Shutting Insurance Companies
Our nation has more money than any other, more weapons than all the others combined, and a majority of its citizens believing it is, in some undefined sense, superior. But the people who live in the United States trail many other nations in basic measures of health and well-being. Almost uniquely among wealthy nations, we leave tens of millions of our citizens without health coverage, and many times that number with insufficient -- albeit expensive -- health insurance. We pay more per capita than anybody else for healthcare, and we get dramatically less for it. What gives?

While there is great variation among the systems used in other wealthy nations, and while their citizens have complaints as well, there is a feature that everybody else has found effective that we uniquely lack, and nowhere is there a nation whose people would willingly part with that feature in exchange for a system like ours. That feature is called single-payer. In a single-payer system, such as Canada's, a nation can have private healthcare, private doctors, private hospitals, and greater choice for patients than what we have. In such a system, no insurance company can tell you which doctors to see, or tell doctors which patients to treat. Nor are there different prices and procedures depending on what class of patient you are, whether you have insurance through your job or privately, etc. In such a system, you can go to whatever doctors you want, bring no bill home, and spend zero minutes per year dealing with insurance companies. In such a system, health insurance companies, at least as we now know them, cease to exist.

But won't that cost more? And who will pay for it? Actually, it will mean tremendous savings, because all of the endless paperwork, bureaucracy, advertising, and pointless expenses of the insurance companies will be gone. Medicare is much more efficient than insurance companies, and what we are describing is essentially the expansion of Medicare to cover everyone and everything. This could be paid for, by the government (the single payer), with an employment tax that would cost most businesses significantly less than they now pay to health insurance companies. In fact, this shift would take an enormous burden off American businesses that businesses abroad do not carry. And, according to a study produced by the California Nurses Association, single-payer would provide a net gain of 2.6 million jobs. It would stimulate the economy significantly better than getting Wall Street banksters those second and third yachts.

When he served in the Illinois state legislature, Barack Obama favored single-payer. He now says that it would be the best solution if he could start from scratch. The claim that he and others make is that we cannot start from scratch, that change is too difficult, that Americans are in fact reluctant to part with their dear beloved and familiar HMOs. But this picture is wildly divergent from the real world, in which Medicare was implemented very rapidly and in which few things are more despised than health insurance companies. The explanation, I'm afraid, is the financial influence in Congress and the White House of the insurance industry. When you add to this the desire of most Congress members to simply obey either the president or the Republican leader, rather than acting independently, reform becomes very difficult. We are likely to see a dramatic change in healthcare policy this year, but probably at best it will include a limited expansion of Medicare or the creation of a limited public option alongside tweaks to the private, for-profit system still dominated by businesses that make money by avoiding providing healthcare. At worst, we'll see something called a "public option" that will actually amount to requiring people to purchase private health insurance, a solution already implemented with horrible results in Massachusetts. The White House recently even proposed privatizing health coverage for veterans, giving the insurance companies profits out of the Veterans' Administration at the expense of the provision of care. That proposal went over like a brick and was immediately withdrawn, but that is the force we are up against.

We do, however, have a tool with which to go up against it. A bill in the U.S. House of Representatives, HR 676, is sponsored by Congressman John Conyers and 75 other congress members. Last year it had 93 cosponsors, and I expect it will soon have more than that in this congress. The chances of passing the bill this year are slim, but its value in compelling a compromise that includes a partial solution is critical.

Your congress member may be like mine here in Virginia's Fifth Congressional District, Congressman Tom Perriello. He has not taken a position, and has frequently expressed his belief on this and other issues that the president will be the decider. Of course he's right that, to a great extent, we now have a monarchical rather than a legislative government. But we don't have to accept it. The people of this district, like yours, are not well represented by someone who informs us of what the president is doing. A journalist could do that. We are only truly represented if our congress member pushes for what we want, in hopes that the ultimate compromise will be moved somewhat in the direction of what we want. Opening a political negotiation by asking for what the other side is offering is no negotiation at all. And failing to support a necessary proven solution to our healthcare crisis that also creates 2.6 million jobs would be an outrage.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good luck!
I've been fighting this battle since 1996. The insurance companies are a Goliath to our David. I hope we don't give up.
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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. 10,000 Sling shots
ready aim
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. Not enough
We're gonna need another 20 million or so.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
53. I'll add mine. Husband will too.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
63. Wasn't the whole point of David vs. Goliath about the quality of the shot, not the quantity?
We just need a single president with the balls to enact what it is best for the majority of our citizens, not just some corporations.

Alas, I am not holding my breath any president will grow such level of spine during my lifetime, if ever in this country.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. The point you make stabs me tot he depths of my soul
But I totally agree. Obama is very likable, in the Aw shucks, ain't he and his wife so sweet kinda way.

All the better for the Masters of the Universe to keep exerting their need for our flesh.

And that pound of flesh includes keeping Single Payer Universal Out of the clutches of the dwindling middle class, and of course, although the poor may "receive" medical benefits,. the fact of the matter that the poor people clinics are overcrowded and their doctors are overwhelmed.
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slowchange Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
126. i hear ya
the pharms wont let go either
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DeltaLitProf Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. Not only do we need to shut them down . . .
. . . we must recover their assets. If I were Obama, I would have instructed the Justice Department to file fraud indictments against all of the big insurance companies for denying claims. There are so many ways to gut them for breaking their own policy prospecti that this would be the sure mechanism by which the American people can recover what insurance companies owe us.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. ...
...:applause:
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-06-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
135. EXCELLENT POINT!
www.johnrussellforcongress.com for detailed info on a National Single Payer Health Plan:)
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. eliminate the middleman!
Remember that old slogan?

Of course if insurance companies are done away with a lot of people will need to find jobs elsewhere.

Any ideas on that?

I'm with you on this -- have been for a long long time. It's akin to charities who spend a huge portion of their revenue on administrative costs to keep "undeserving" from getting any aid.

Same thing. Makes no sense.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Yeah, pity the poor insurance bureaucrats
:nopity:

The money saved with health insurance reform will be available for other things...which in turn will create jobs...which the former bureaucrats will then fill.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
74. An expansion of medical and para-medical education and
research so medical care supply is adequate and care is better; there are the jobs.

Cheap, merit based medical schools but with X years in the socialized system before the choice to go private.

Many jobs to more medical professionals and educators.

This need works with our demographics and is paid for by cutting out predatory insurance companies.

No turning away patients and the only rationing based upon inverse ability to pay and elective procedures.

Those that deem themselves "elite" can buy private insurance or pay as they go with those that go private after there time in socialized medicine.

Health care is morally a human right.
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
83. If health-care weren't so tightly linked to employers- they would hire up people in a big way!
but no one is hiring now because "health insurance" is expected to go with employment.

"Eliminate The Middleman
Single Payer NOW!"
(bumper sticker idea)
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm for that.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. I heard once that the majority of our health care costs occur in the last 2 months of our life.
I would like to know if other countries with single payer handle it as we do or if they are more likely to say certain efforts are not worth it.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
62. One word answer - NO
Edited on Mon May-04-09 02:26 PM by Canuckistanian
Ok, well a few more.

First government doesn't decide who gets medical care or how much. Doctors do, in partnership with their patients.

When I'm interacting with my doctor, it's for my health only. NOT for any bureaucrat's bean counting or insurance company's profit margin.

The ONLY role of government is to PAY. They give no instructions to doctors what they can and can't do. With the exeptions of non-medical procedures such as plastic surgery.

Doctors and hospital boards rule the medical world here in Canada.
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quidam56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:11 AM
Response to Original message
8. In Tennessee and Virginia Profit Care comes ahead of Patient Care
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. At worst, make t hem nonprofits and convert their staffs to
process paper work.
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RC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. That doesn't work
Blue Cross Blue Shhield in North Dakota has 93+ coverage of the people that have health insurance. They are setup as a non-profit. They operate as a for-profit business. After BCBS/ND spent over $250,000 to send their sales force and their wives to the Cayman Islands for two weeks, the ND legislature wanted to just look at the laws governing non-profits that BCBS. The original bill passed the Senate 44 to 3. The it went to the House, which voted 61-31 to NOT study the laws governing non-profits that BCBS operates under. BTY, these junkets are yearly to some expensive spot.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. That is better than 6.8B in profits that UNH had
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Delphinus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:57 AM
Response to Original message
10. Shout it from the rooftops!
HR 676 is the ONLY way!

President Obama said in the Internet forum group - the one where over 3 million people asked about real health care - said we "have a legacy with insurance companies" ... well, we also have a legacy of slavery, but does that mean it was right? Didn't we outgrow that?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
12. Deleted message
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. i agree about Caroline Kennedy...
but wtf is a "pony" thread? Why is this not a "viable suggestion"?

And i happen to think that even if there's only a slim chance something could happen, doesn't mean you shouldn't try...

Single Payer is truly the best way to go. Our Congress just needs to be made to understand that.

:shrug:


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. Deleted message
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
85. It is very clear - rule of law = "a pony called justice" single payer = "a pony called health care"
While we are whining for our little ponies. A corporation in need of their basic human right(yes they are a people)to earn billions off of our sickness is in desperate need of being met. Also that poor little fellow called banky (bank to his friends) is in desperate need of usury raters on our credit as well - because you know a trillion dollar hand out just isn't enough.

Have you no empathy for the little corps? See how sad they look?

How dare you ask for your silly little ponies. They need it so much more you selfish bastard!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Deleted message
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
79. and you're breaking the rules by calling me out and attacking me.
kindly refrain from doing so.

"only hypocrites can't forgive hypocrisy".
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
39. Totally disagree this time -
If we don't even TRY, then we are doomed to SUFFER...

If we BELIEVE it CAN happen, IT WILL...
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. If it is not single payer, it will fail
Any politician who makes a plan that will force people to buy anything will not be invited back. No one has money. Even those with money dont' have money. So if it comes with a $200 a month bill, Americans can not pay that, and will not pay that, and will resent anyone forcing them to buy for profit product that they really can not afford. Forcing people to chip in on high end executive pay, after already pumping trillions of our dollars into the banks....what are we, chattle? Human ATM machinces?
People who do not have insurance can not afford to buy insurance. Only an idioit politcian would think that a mandate will suddenly make it possible to get blood from a turnip.
If they want to mandate a huge monthly premium for their buddies, they will fail. The project itself will fail. And the politicians who did it will be sent packing. This is a very bad econominc time, and all the help is for the Banks and Insurance Companies, the very entities that put us in the gutter.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
96. absolutely agreed. why this is not crystal cleat to Obama is beyond me. nt
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
17. Insurance companies are not the only ones to blame
So are the politicians, the doctors, the clinics and hospitals, the nurses, other health care workers, the drug companies, the pharmacies, the billing companies, the medical supply manufacturers and providers and the patients. Not to mention the dentists and opticians.

It is unrealistic to think that one might be able to come up with a compromise between all the groups of competing interests. The corporations own our elected officials. And our elected officials are for the most part spineless bastards who prefer position and the power and prosperity it brings to fulfilling their duties to the citizens that elected them.

Meanwhile, I have not seen a doctor for any reason in well over a decade. I am in my late 40s and fully cognizant of the fact that I will likely face a shortened and diminished life because I do not have meaningful access to health care. Yet I pay taxes which are used to provide access to health care for the greedy lying politicians who are far more interested in advancing their own interests than in assuring that I have minimal care.

We should all be outraged. The system doesn't give a fuck if we suffer or if we live or die. The only thing that is important is earning a buck. And that is true of all the participants in the health care system. Follow the money - it explains the motivations.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. you, my friend, ought to be a community organizer
Your post was direct and inspiring. Thank you for the focus.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
47. As a nurse, I can tell you MOST nurses would be offended by your first sentence
Hundreds of us in my city alone are fighting for universal health care for all. We see the effects of our broken system every day and not one of us of which I am aware, is in collusion with "the system" to keep it going. Nurses hate it. Most doctors I talk to hate it too. I've been before the WI legislature twice in the last month, lobbied my Senators, written letters to the editor, made more phone calls than I can count to get safer patient care and inclusive patient care. And I'm not alone.

I'm sorry you are getting the shaft in the "health care lottery" as I call it. But please don't blame everyone working in health care. I hope things improve because you deserve to have competent, reasonably priced care. I'll keep at it...
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #47
97. thank you!
:applause:
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #47
109. Nope, sorry, if you work anywhere in the health care industry, you're evil.
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:33 PM by TwilightZone
And you're only in it for the money.

People actually believe that crap around here. Sad.
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Coyote_Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
125. .
Thank you for your efforts on behalf of single payer health care.

I have some very good long time friends who work in the health care industry - as nurses! My comment was not a personal criticism - or a denial of the special skills and gifts which nurses bring to the health care industry. The comment which offended you was an acknowledgment that every group which participates in the health care industry has a financial motive.

In the small midwestern state where I live doctors earn more than double the income of male attorneys. Female attorneys earn less than half the income of male attorneys - and female attorneys with less than five years of experience can expect to earn less than $30,000 annually. Small wonder they leave the legal profession in droves to drive UPS trucks, sell cosmetics at Dillards, work in corporate contract compliance and sell real estate. CNA's with two semesters of training can expect to earn as much as a newly minted female attorney. Nurses at all levels of experience can expect to earn more than female attorneys here.

What's wrong with this picture? Health professionals here are paid salaries that reflect incomes paid in large metropolitan areas across the nation. A newly minted GP can expect to earn about the same income here as he could expect anywhere else. Yet this state is a poor state and one of the most food insecure areas of the nation. Incomes paid to health care professionals here are disproportionate to other incomes here.

Health workers like other workers accept the highest wages they can get. And they tend to congregate and live and work in the areas that have the largest population - leaving large areas of rural residents without meaningful access to health care even when they have the best health insurance. There are areas in this state where a trip to the nearest hospital requires a drive of over an hour, a trip to consult with a medical specialist requires driving several hours to another state, and a trip to see the local general practitioner requires scheduling an appointment months in advance and traveling to that same town where the hospital is located an hour or so away. Any doctor who chooses to practice in a rural area does so knowing he will not earn the money he could working in a metropolitan area. And those doctors make that choice to avoid working in rural areas over and over and over. The doctors most willing and likely to serve in rural areas are often foreign medical school graduates who serve for a few years in order to pay off their student loans before moving on.

You confuse placing blame on individual participants with placing blame on groups of participants in the health care system. The focus of the health care system ought to be on the delivery of health care - not on securing or acquiring financial assets. The most fundamental principle of economics is that resources are limited - which means that there is competition to obtain those resources. Simple fact is that our health care system is an example of largely unregulated capitalism where participants have a motive to advance their financial interests often at the expense of the delivery of health care.



I'm not "getting the shaft in the health care lottery" as you put it. I am someone that society has decided to throw away. It is apparent that the only people who care that I likely will live a diminished and shortened life are my family and close friends. I live in a society where the physical well being of a confessed serial killer facing execution on death row has more value to society than my own. If he has an "accident" he'll be patched up pretty quickly without being bankrupted. And if he requires mental health care then somebody wll be damned sure that he is medicated and competent to face execution. If I require care for simple depression then I have become uninsurable for life. Our fucking politicians are far more interested in maintaining their position and the power and prosperity it brings to them personally than they are in demonstrating the iniative to see that everyone has access to basic health care services. Funny how so many politicians favor single payer until they acquire some influence isn't it? The height of cruelty is that I am required to fund health care services for others that I am unable to secure for myself. As a taxpayer my taxes are used to provide health care for the elderly, prisoners, the young, the poor, the disabled, the politicians, government employees, and native Americans among others. I have no reason to expect meaningful change in the health care system during my lifetime.

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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
58. A lot of doctors and clinic managers like myself are with you.
Excellent post.

Single payer NOW!
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laureloak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
123. The insurance companies the ones with the skyscrapers.
The insurance companies would have you believe that malpractice suits are the reason for high medical costs. They pit the doctors against the lawyers then laugh all the way to the bank. I am all for getting rid of the greedy, blood-sucking insurance companies.

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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
18. If health insurance companies
disappeared there would be fewer dollars flowing into campaign funds, thus reducing the number of political ads on TV. It's a win win situation.
Those working for the insurance companies could be doing the same jobs for the government. The CEOs and others in upper management could join the military or be Wal-Mart greeters.
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pleah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. K&R
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. No single payer health care? ...you don't get my vote.
If you don't care about me then I don't care about your political future.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
23. K & R
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
25. jobs? and I love my private insurance
the implementation of single payer nationwide may create 2.6 million jobs but what happens to the jobs of those who work for the insurance companies? What happens to the insurance companies?

As much as I would love to see single payer I am at the same time completely unwilling to let go of the private insurance I currently hold. I have it through my work and it is by far the best coverage plan I have ever had in my life and with two kids who seem to be growing up as carefree and rambunctious as I was I'm gonna need it. I pay out the ass for it though. I would be supportive of something like they have in France. National healthcare with supplemental private insurance. I think it is 85% of the French population carries private supplemental insurance to cover the things the national plan doesn't.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Oh, you've got yours? That's all that matters. Screw everyone else.
It's the American way!
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. you didn't read my whole post
screw reading, it's overrated anyways
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. I don't have an obligation to keep insurance company employees in a job.
What other sector has that kind of guarantee? And to keep them in a job at the detriment to the health of this country's citizens is insane.
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pnutbutr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. nobody has an obligation
but you can't forget about the thousands of people who work for these companies but have nothing to do with their policies. The maintenance crews, HR dept, IT dept etc... You also have to take into account that we already have rising unemployment and if you eliminate private health insurers and all their employees all at once it would cause unemployment to skyrocket and just further complicate and extend the recession/depression.
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Lars39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Lifting the burden of the exorbitant cost of health care from everyone,
especially the unemployed, would be the best boost to the economy there could be.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. What utter and complete BULLSHIT!
we can always extend their UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS, then...

I could fucking CARE LESS about these BLOOD SUCKERS!!!

Next you'll be telling us that we have to be careful about all those wall street worker from the BANKRUPT companies that also failed DUE TO THEIR OWN GREED and NEGLIGENCE...

go pound sand, honey...
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Dreamer Tatum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Can you please provide a list of approved vocations?
By that I mean YOUR list, since it's so informed and holy.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Certainly: PARASITES need not apply...PERIOD.
and the HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY are PARASITES...

glad I could help...
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
72. Amen.
Times two.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
46. having gone through treatment
for breast cancer, i can tell you that it would have been much easier if i didn't have to wait for some fng insurance adjuster to authorize the tests and treatments my doctors said i needed.
my radition treatments alone were $100,000.00...5,000 per zap. how much of that is actual cost, and how much is overhead for the middleman (insurance companies)? health care will never work, for everyone, as long as it is a for profit enterprise. we absoutely need to take the profit motive out
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Born_A_Truman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
113. 31%
According to what I read on a link tonight about singly payer, 31% or 31 cents of every dollar went to insurance administration fees.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #113
133. thanks...that make no sense to me
$31,000.00 from my illness alone.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
69. The negative effect of a few thousand unemployed would be minuscule compared with the boost
Edited on Mon May-04-09 02:46 PM by liberation
generated by having a single-player or universal coverage.

In other words, it would be foolish not to enable a piece of legislation with clear positive effects on a massive scale at medium and long terms, because of the possible mild side effects in the short term. If that is not the definition of shortsighted I don't know what else it is...
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. Hey,
at least they'd still have health care while they are unemployed!
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
86. Every insurance company employee is an executive who should drop dead.
That really is the way some people think around here, isn't it?

*sigh*
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. It makes me sick. I'm a CSR for an insurance company.
I guess I should just go to hell because I won't quit my job and be unemployed.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #88
93. Not a lot of thought goes into it.
Edited on Mon May-04-09 08:58 PM by TwilightZone
People who come up with these brilliant ideas rarely consider the ramifications. Neither, apparently, do the people who jump on the bandwagon.

It's the same kind of binary thinking that brought us "with us or against us", so if you work for an insurance company, you're inherently evil, regardless of your position in the company.

Makes no sense, of course. Heaven forbid that we see shades of gray in an issue or situation.

Besides, according to another poster, the impact on people like you is "miniscule". I'm sure that makes you feel *much* better!
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
114. They can take their skills elsewhere.
That is the free-market way.

You have no guarantee of employment at my expense.
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cascadiance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. Will you still feel that way if you get laid off and have to pay for COBRA instead?
You'll pay even more for it then. I'm not looking forward to having to pay out $500/month in COBRA fees a couple of months from now when I lose my worker's insurance now that I just got laid off.

If there were single payer health care in place, that's $500 more that I'd have available to spend on other things. Otherwise I'm going be a real tightwad in this struggling economy that needs people like me and others to get jobs and spend more money.

If we were to remove the cap from payroll tax and drop the rates (to keep Obama's promises on not raising taxes on anyone making $250k or less), the added revenue could perhaps be used to expand the scope of medicare that's funded by payroll tax to cover all of us like single payer would.
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demodonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #25
49. Why should I go without ANY healthcare so that insurance employees can have jobs?

I am one of the millions of the uninsured. I can't afford to buy insurance. And because of this I am one diagnosis away from lifelong financial disaster or even death.

As such, I really could care less whether or not insurance company workers keep their jobs as they are now.

The time has come to stop paying these people to push paper. Let the health insurance workers retrain to provide actual CARE (which we would have more of under single-payer because of the cost savings.)

If any displaced insurance workers don't like the idea of learning to give hands-on care instead of playing with claim forms (and denying them), then too bad. Let them sink or swim and find whatever other work they can. Millions of laid-off workers in other industries (many of said industries are dying because they can't compete globally with countries that provide healthcare) have to do exactly this.

It's time to let the health "insurance" industry go. The rest of us will pay less and get more actual care.

Single-payer healthcare for ALL. We can't afford NOT to do this.



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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
50. I have "good" private insurance and hate it. Have you made lots of claims?
Our son had a birth defect that required a surgery and ongoing treatment that has, in the first 14 months of his life, cost well over $100,000 and it just keeps going. He has PT, eye problems, will have orthodontic problems, and is probably facing more surgery to correct craniofacial asymmetry. Our insurance plan is one of the best in the region...yet I pay $1000s out of pocket, have to fight off their subrogation firm on a weekly basis as they try to decide what to cover and what not to cover, and have been told this could take us to the limit of what they will pay, leaving us with no insurance. We have to go to the doctors they tell us to go to, but are fortunate to have had really good ones with the exception of a couple.

Insurance company jobs exist to make money, not improve care. They take money off the top. They are STEALING from you, and me, and everyone else. These aren't jobs. This is theivery. Good riddance to this kind of "job".

Insurance blows. If you want to pay for your plan, have at it. Feel free to pay for it if it's so great. Just
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
66. Soooo...
We should not enact something that according to you would create as many as 2.6 million jobs, and benefit the whole of our society, in order to protect a few thousand jobs?

Did I get part of the gist of your argument correct?
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
95. People who like their private insurance usually haven't had to use it yet.
We'll see how you feel about it when you or a family member has a major illness or hospitalization. Half of all bankruptcies are due to medical bills and most of those people HAD insurance.
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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
117. Why couldn't we have a system like the one in France?
Most countries with single-payer also provide the option of purchasing supplemental private insurance, like you said. With that, I'm sure you could get coverage equivalent to what you currently have, and possibly at a lower cost. And you would still have it even if you change or lose your job.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
28. Insurance companies = vultures
I hate the SOBs...they NEED to go IMO.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. ALL insurance companies? Or just HEALTH insurance companies?
I'd like to know, since I work for an insurer.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #48
60. IMHO - they all need an overhaul
And those that fail, fail.

This might be cruel of me but my bookie is tons more honest that any insurance company I have . In the past 3 years I have had 2 car accidents(totally the other guys fault, both times they ran stop signs and t boned me], I have had hail on my house and I have had medical care denied.

In all three cases there is no doubt of the eventual outcome of the lawsuits. They will lose and lose big, but in the meantime my house has severely damaged siding that the SOB's won't pay for because they say that "having painted aluminum siding makes it faulty and thus not covered", that the car accidents are "under investigation and thus not covered" and that despite multiple doctors saying I need surgery and therapy that I am "100% recovered."

My bookie I trust. He takes a bet and loses and he pays off the very same day. The insurance companies lose a bet and they deny the claim. They are, IMHO, all guilty of dishonesty, deceptive advertising, negligent homicide, fraud, and a host of other crimes (any suggestions anyone?).

If it were up to me they would all insurance companies would be made responsible for their actions. Deny a claim, be found wrong and if it causes death then you should go to jail and do hard time. And that should extend up from the adjusters right up to the board room and the shareholders.

I think insurance can be a great good, but what it is these days is a criminal enterprise.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. You need a better agent.
Your agent should be going to bat for you to push for claims to be paid.

But I appreciate you saying I work for a criminal enterprise. Your obnoxiousness is duly noted.
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EnoughOfThis Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. Thank You
I appreciate the comments "Common Sense Party". You know.....a lot of insurance is required by government and others is required to keep me out of jail. I understand the bitterness, but know that there are things that are required by government. We should work toward a system that frees people to do what they need to do to protect themselves......without interference.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #48
102. Well, as far as I'm concerned, all of them.
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:03 PM by juajen
Has anybody compared how high our insurance is to what it was in earlier years? There is no reason for the obscene amounts we now pay for insurance.

As early as 1996, I was paying $44 a month for homeowners' insurance with Allstate. We had a small deductible for hurricanes and other storms. We now pay over $200 per month, and we have no coverage for named storms; oops, excuse me, my deductible for "named" storms is $7800, and our politicians say nothing about this abomination. Though we have been through many hurricane, we have never had a claim. All over the country, there are catastrophes that insurance covers; so. lousiana is not an exception. I know the people in fla. are furious also, as is miss. and other states affected by storms.

The insurance industry is just totally criminal now.

Edited to add: Allstate and other insurance companies now no longer will write new policies in Louisiana.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #102
116. "Totally criminal." That's what you think of me and my employer.
Typical.
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #48
127. All categories....
...there is NO area of insurance coverage ~~ auto, home, health ~~ that is not stocked full of these vultures.

I hate them to hell and back...the ins companies are huge and will spend a ton of money to defeat a valid claim ~~ of the insured as well as someone who has an injury due to conduct of the insured ~~ and they literally have no morals. Anything to win.

I have dealt with ins defense attys over the years, and they are most of the time the scum of the earth. My standard "hello" greeting to one of these assholes is usually: "So how many widows and orphans did you put on the street this week?"

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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:00 AM
Response to Original message
32. thanks david
wrote to my congressman urging him to support the bill.
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Butch350 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
33. Shutting down insurance companies...
won't that help boost the unemployment rolls?
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
37. That's what I've been clamoring for, for a long time now...
GET RID OF THE INSURANCE COMPANIES at least as far as "health insurance" goes...

Do it SWIFTLY, COMPREHENSIVELLY AND THOROUGHLY...

Just like setting a bone...make it a clean quick break...
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'm totally PRO-SINGLE PAYER. Had an "interesting" discussion with two friends recently.
The conservative says that the low overhead percentage for Medicare is deceptive. I have read four to eight percent. He said it's more like 40% to 60%.

Does anyone know the true overhead costs of Medicare? These must include not just the processing time and salaries of the workers but also all of their Federal benefits, including health insurance, vacation, sick leave, holiday pay, petty leave, and whatever else Federal employees get these days.

I agree that the advertising costs and the bloated insurance executive pay are a huge cost to those of us who are insured by private, for-profit insurance companies, but I would like to know how the two--Medicare and private--compare.

Please provide some facts, not opinions. Thanks.

Recommend this thread.

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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. Wish I knew, but one thing to consider...
Medicare costs more than it probably would if most people were in it. Currently, Medicare insures the elderly and those with disabilities as large groups. These groups of people are more likely to have more health issues/comorbidities. If we allow a bunch of young healthy people to buy into this program, it would bring down the overall cost.

Remember, insurance companies are NOT health care professionals. They do nothing but skim money from us and deny care to make their profits. They stand in the way of doctors and patients who should be the ones directing care.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. I agree wholeheartedly with your last paragraph, AllyCat. However, I'm not so sure that
your assessment in the first paragraph is accurate.

Yes, there would be a cost savings from having more young, healthy people in the problem, but don't forget all of those un-insureds and under-insureds who will be taking advantage of being able to actually go to the doctor or clinic when they have a problem instead of wishing they could go. I realize that there are many people who currently use the E.R. as their medical clinic for colds, etc, so having them go to a for-real medical clinic will probably help reduce some of our costs. But I'm not sure how this all plays out. Surely some group has done an exhaustive study of this.

Good points. I'm just trying to be as accurate as possible on this so I can have a well-thought out response to my conservative friend. He's a reasonable person who gets his info from the usual media suspects--Aaaargghhh!!

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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
64. Here is a list of organizations that compared single payer to private
Edited on Mon May-04-09 02:39 PM by wolfgangmo
Canada
Japan
England
Norway
France
Germany
Australia

to name a few.

Of course there are lots of other organizations who kick our ass in health care benchmarks and are not big name countries such as

Cuba
Yugoslavia
Vietnam

plus about 30 others.

This link has some good comparison stats on this. Let me summarize. We pay more than anyone and we get less than any other industrialized country and less than many banana republics. http://bartdz.blogspot.com/2005/03/how-does-usa-stack-up-worldwide.html






Why are you even asking this question?
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
77. Why? Because I know nothing about the level of care in the countries you have listed
and I know nothing about how much money it costs and what percentage of tax dollars it takes to have single payer.

I don't know about you, wolfgangmo, but I'm not one to follow blindly just because others say something is right. Do you have something against people asking questions when they are trying to learn?

Interestingly enough, one of my friends has relatives in England who are very unhappy with the medical care they receive there. He told me that they have told him that medical care is allocated in large part based on one's age. The very elderly are given very basic care because they are on the "downhill" side of life; whereas, the young and middle-aged have access to much better care. Is this true? If it is, I think it's something we Americans should be aware of. What do you think?



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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #77
124. From an anecdotal perspective:
We have a son with a birth defect (craniosynostosis) that is fairly uncommon (1/3000). We joined an online support group because there just was no one else who'd even heard of it, let alone experienced it with whom we could comiserate. The online group is international. There are families from the Phillipines, Norway, Australia, Canada, Italy, the Canary Islands, Denmark, the Netherlands, and all over Great Britain and Ireland. They all get the same tests, work up, surgery, follow-up care, and TIMELINESS of treatment that the families in the U.S. get. The difference is, they don't pay for theirs (yes, they pay through taxes), get to pick their surgeons, and get more frequent follow-up visits, many of which are at home.

One woman from Jamaica couldn't get surgery for her son until just last month after over a year of fighting. Not because she couldn't get coverage, but because no one in Jamaica was qualified to perform the neurosurgery/plastic surgery dyad of care. The country of Jamaica finally flew her to New York for surgery and paid for her to stay in a hotel there for a month so her son could get the immediate post-op care he needed.

As for treatment of the elderly, that is a concern. However, I know any of these systems are fraught with problems and people slip through the cracks. But right now, we have people who are routinely denied care unless they can pay for it because they didn't win the "health insurance lottery" this time around. We have huge numbers of people who get NOTHING. That's not rationing....that's NOTHING. I don't need studies to tell me that. It is just common sense and observation. I have friends who work in service industries who have NO health insurance for their kids or themselves. That's cruel and unjust. I am more concerned with the humanity of treating everyone than the potential for it costing more. Of course, that argument won't sit well with your conservative friend or lots of other Americans as they are too worried about themselves to pay any attention to the misfortune and suffering of others.

Our priorities in this country are bass-ackwards.
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haele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
78. Your friend is playing the typical privatization game -
"Private Corporations can do it cheaper" - which only works if you have a short term project or if there isn't a constant requirement for the employee to be there.
The amount of Federal employees who work in the Medicare departments in HHS and the IRS are far fewer than the amount of employees at any one of the top ten Health Insurance corporations. In fact, there are far more "upper management" types - and their equally highly paid staff - in any one private corporation than there is in the Medicare.
Don't forget the lobbyists constantly on staff. And the Public Affairs/AD people, on call. And the lawyers. And the subcontractors doing the support work.
All these employees - down to the lowliest phone bank worker or janitor - have overhead associated with them, also. With the exception of pensions, the overhead and benefits are pretty much the same amount, too.

Not to mention the size of the bonus' and other incentives to keep all those good people with the company. And the fact that Medicare is not allowed to make a profit, but an insurance company is required by the Shareholders to make a profit, which cuts into the ability to provide the service - the actual "work" - the company is supposed to be providing.

I'm a federal contractor myself, and I know this for a fact - the government could save much more money hiring me on permanently to do the work I do on a salary than they would paying my company to provide my services and cover the overhead themselves - because there's the middleman factor, which automatically adds up to 15% more cost to "rent" me under contract for going on 3 years.
As per contract, my company bills for 80 hours of "salary", award fee, and G&A for me every 2 weeks. Not 80 hours a month, which would be about the amount of work the government would get from me if they paid my company monthly the same cost a government worker would be for one month.

Haele
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Ewellian Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
91. The people handling Medicare
claims are not federal employees. Medicare claims processing and call center services are (and have always been) contracted out to private companies....many of them the health insurance companies we're insisting need to be out out of business.

The low overhead for Medicare is deceptive but I don't believe it's anywhere near 40 to 60%. Some of the costs are in the budgets of other agencies...for example, eligibility and premium collection is done by the Social Security Administration.

I haven't seen an honest comparison of the overhead costs of Medicare vs private insurance.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. Thanks, Ewellian. This may be part of the costs my conservative friend is alluding to.
I'm sure there are many pieces to this gigantic puzzle. It would be nice to know what they are so we can pick and choose the best parts to build our public health option.

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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #43
98. The information you requested
Edited on Mon May-04-09 09:40 PM by Dragonfli
Can largely be found here.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php

There is a great deal of research available at this site.

I agree that information should come before your personal judgment and opinion on any matter.
It will also be the best way to have a rational discussion with your conservative friend.

There are perhaps some here that just assume that everyone knows of the research and are growing a little impatient combating the misinformation largely paid for and distributed by insurance companies that would prefer the status quo (and the profits it provides them largely for denying care). Please be patient with them, it just gets a little repetitive at times and feels like banging one's head on the wall.

The information is not about specifically Medicare as that is really not the same (covers mostly the highest cost segment from a medical needs position).

Research the issue at hand instead, single payer costs over a broad spectrum as compared to for profit costs in the same arena.

:hi:

Edited to add this study (I think it is also at the other site, but just in case)
http://www.calnurses.org/research/pdfs/ihsp_sp_economic_study_2009.pdf
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. I really appreciate the links, Dragonfli. This is what I've been hoping to find.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. YW /nt
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
44. Increasing the unemployment rate is a plan?
Sorry, I'll listen to what Obama says.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #44
108. That is not the plan at all - please become informed on the subject regarding JOB GAINS - link below
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:24 PM by Dragonfli
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #108
128. Please try to apply common sense instead of hyperbole
Obama has recognized that the removal of all these jobs would be detrimental to society.

His plan is to keep the existing insurance jobs while slowly growing the other side and the private sector.




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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #128
134. You are unwilling to do the research then, that is understandable, most followers of blind faith
Edited on Tue May-05-09 05:29 PM by Dragonfli
Prefer their faith in whatever prophet.

I feel that the hyperbole is actually centered around an unnecessary and and predatory system (that must be saved!!!!).

The fact that people profit off sickness does not convince me that they serve any purpose.

In fact I spent 3 months waiting for an insurance company to okay a breast Cancer surgery that the doctor said was needed asap.

Chemo was suspended prior to that and was timed for a surgery that was not 3 months in the future.
My wife died as it grew 3 fold in that three months and attached to her chest wall (previously not the case)

Why should 30% to 40% of my health care dollar go to those folks for that one service they provided, namely obstruction.

The hyperbole sir is to claim that those predatory jobs are, more important than the health care itself.

I understand the insurance lobby has deep pockets and that will affect the politicians - but to blindly follow such nonsense reasoning while fearing to do the actual net job research that would prove employment increases well ----

All I can say is fuck you on behalf of my wife you intellectually lazy asshole.
I can tell you are fortunate not to run afoul of your "wonderful" system.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
45. yes, yes, yes!!! End insurance's stranglehold on our wallets! They are NOT
health care professionals. They stand between decisions best left to us and our doctors every DAMNED DAY!!! Get 'em out and save lots of money, improve quality, and increase access!!
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
51. yes, god, PLEASE
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
56. Insurance companies perform the same function as the Mafia
They stand between you and your medical care and collect a fee for "protection".
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stlsaxman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #56
84. BINGO! Insurance was adopted by organized crime after repeal of Prohibition.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
57. When I worked in the UN and we were trapped in an obscure location
with nothing to do in the evenings we (UN medical and non medical staff) had a parlour game to while away the nights. While drinking beer in the market stalls I would guide the visiting American onto the discussion of universal national health care. The American would always respond with a defense of the American system and we would spend the rest of the night watching the doctors from Australia, Candada, Denmark and Switzerland carve up the hapless traveler, and that was twenty years ago.

The issue can be settled in a straight forward way.

If the American system is so preferrable to those of the other industrialized Democracies, then why is it that not a single Conservative Party in any of the other countries take the position of changing to our system?


None of them do. Many of the Doctors I worked with were politically very conservative but none of them, nor do any Conservative party anywhere want what we have. Of course any system that large and complex is going to have some problems, but no major political party outside of the US wants the US system.

Socialized Medicine saves money. Ask any Republican how much the American people are spending on Small Pox. The answer is zero. Once the greatest killer and most expensive medical problem in the world, it has been eliminated for 30 years by coordinated government action. Those millions that were spent by the governments of the world 30 years ago now look like pennies on the dollar today, let alone the huge savings of human life.
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wolfgangmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #57
67. This is the best post on this topic here.
thank you.
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
71. wish i could rec this more than once
i've been so damned lucky to have good health insurance thru work, that's helped me thru some serious illnesses.
when i imagine what it would be like if i had no insurance, i feel upset, frustrated and angry.

single-payer all the way! everyone deserves to get the same excellent coverage that i have!!!!!

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
73. Huge K & R! This is what Michael Moore made SICKO for-to get rid of insurance companies!
:kick:
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TheUnspeakable Donating Member (960 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
75. k &r
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Yavapai Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
76. You might add to this!
Edited on Mon May-04-09 04:51 PM by Yavapai
One of the reasons that auto insurance is so high, is the cost of insuring against the liability for medical on the other driver, in the case of an accident.

If we had single payer, we wouldn't need this aspect of auto insurance. That, by itself, would drive down the price.

Let the employees of the insurance companies get a real job! One that BENEFITS our people, instead of preying upon them.

My wife and I are insurance poor due to Health insurance, auto insurance, home owners insurance. The cost of health insurance alone is more than the cost of our mortgage plus food and our auto loan. When I retired, Blue Shield was about $600 a month. Two years later it went to $750 per month. Then the next year it jumped to $1050. Last January they wanted $1530 per month, and medicare pays 80% of the cost of any services I receive (my wife is not yet eligible for medicare.)

I went to an AARP supplemental plan and mine dropped to about $250 per month (including RX.) My wife had to try three different insurance companies before she could get any health insurance at all, due to past high blood pressure. She finally found one the is next to no insurance coverage at all for the price of just $650 per month, it doesn't cover RX at all. Hopefully, she will remain in good health for the next three years.

The golden years! When insurance companies take any gold you and your wife may have accumulated over the last 40 years of working two jobs!





edited to correct spelling error
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #76
92. OT: Cute grey. My 23-year-old DYH Amazon is destroying a Kong toy as I type. nt
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Fireweed247 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
80. K&R
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Fireweed247 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
81. and to think they have the nerve to tell us we cannot afford it
after they handed out trillions of dollars to their banker friends for gambling. :grr:
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Duval Donating Member (377 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
82. K&R
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
87. To the people who don't give a damn about insurance employees losing their jobs..
Edited on Mon May-04-09 07:56 PM by Connie_Corleone
You people make me sick! There are plenty of us who are hourly workers, mailroom workers, customer service reps, etc. that work at insurance companies. Do you people think we work there because we just love working so much? We're trying to pay the bills like everyone else. We're not high-paid executives.

I don't want the auto workers to lose their jobs, but I'm told to go to hell because I work as a customer service rep (nothing to do with health insurance) for an insurance company?

I support single payer, but to say a figurative "fuck you" to people (not the executives) who work in the insurance industry is stupid.



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bluedigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #87
100. You just made a good case against yourself.
You have no special health care providing skills. You just have a job that leaches wealth out of everyone's pockets. You could use the skills you have in any corporate environment. I do feel for the the many folks that would lose their jobs. Just not as much as for the countless millions who need affordable health care. Other forms of insurance, such as life, auto, and home, should continue, as they provide a service to their customers, but health insurance is just a drag on our economy.
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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #100
111. Surely, you can't be serious.
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:44 PM by TwilightZone
You think that someone who works in customer service is "leaching wealth" from society?

Speaking of making a case against yourself....
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. Insurance adds layers of complexity and cost
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:58 PM by tinrobot
If it was single payer, you really wouldn't need customer service to help people navigate a needlessly complex insurance system. People would walk into the hospital, get their care and leave. You'd still have to manage the hospital, but the piles of insurance forms and people needed process them would be gone, as would the associated costs.

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TwilightZone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #115
130. I hope that you don't honestly believe that.
Any large entity that interacts with the public requires customer support. People aren't just magically going to stop asking questions and stop requiring information.
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bluedigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #111
121. Of course not!
I'm speaking of the health insurance industry. I'm sure the CSR folks are just as exploited by their corporate masters as the rest of us. All of the defenders of the status quo on this thread seem to have a vested interest in the continuation of the system as is. They are either employed by the industry, or have a good coverage plan they don't want to give up. What they fail to realize, is that the industry is based on a faulty version of capitalism that doesn't provide for the needs of our society in general. Industries aren't guaranteed the right to exist forever. Change and innovation will proceed, whether they like it or not. Just ask the steamship industry, and the whale oil providers. Nothing wrong with their products - we just found better solutions for our needs.
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #100
119. I hope people like you aren't the ones making the case for single payer.
Edited on Tue May-05-09 07:16 AM by Connie_Corleone
You act like we don't know what it's like to deal with health insurance companies in our personal lives. You act as if we don't know anyone who doesn't have health insurance, that we never had to go without health insurance ourselves until we found a job that provided it.

I support single payer even if it means that I have to work somewhere else. But don't act like our jobs are not as important as everyone else's. How the hell would you feel if someone told you that your job wasn't as important as someone else's and you should just quit and find somewhere else to work? They don't know you and your situation. Just like you don't know me.

I guess you won't be needing our (employees) help to push congress into accepting single payer. Since we're the scum of the earth, "leaching wealth out of people's pockets", you don't need us.


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bluedigger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #119
122. See my reply above.
And I have been told my occupation is a useless luxury and a burden to society. I do it because I love it, and I value what it adds to society, despite what others think. I am poorly paid, accordingly. Which is why I neither get health insurance from my employer, nor can afford the exorbitant rates of the private market.

What group of health insurance employees is it that is lobbying hard for single payer again?
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EndElectoral Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
89. Seriously, Single payer would be the best thing Obama could do for this country long term.
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varelse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
90. K&R
:kick:
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
94. Can you show me the math on how this would create 2.6 million jobs?
And would this be gross job gain, or net job gain? Everyone who works for a health insurance company will instantly be unemployed, so are you saying that there would be jobs for all of these people PLUS an additional 2.6 million people?
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #94
99. Certainly - the study is found here
Edited on Mon May-04-09 09:37 PM by Dragonfli
http://www.calnurses.org/research/pdfs/ihsp_sp_economic_study_2009.pdf

Also it is net jobs.

Many people have jobs working for gangsters that provide "protection insurance". Some of them even innocently as waiters in a "private club/restaurant". I fail to see why anyone would think all jobs should be protected, even if the product is non-existent and predatory. Some work is just not ethical I am afraid. Even taking the predatory jobs and industries into account, the job situation overall is far better.

I do understand your point however and you ask a valid question.
:hi:
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Rage for Order Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #99
118. I see it mentioned, but it's not very clear
Edited on Tue May-05-09 02:17 AM by Rage for Order
The report states that they used an "econometric input-output model", but they don't say what the inputs were, i.e. what assumptions were made when building the model. It simply states that reports are forthcoming that will show the sources and assumptions.

The report also states that the jobs created won't be limited to the healthcare industry, but instead will propagate throughout the economy. They then show this graphic:



note: I had to copy the chart from another location on the web because the pdf wouldn't let me copy it, and that was the largest copy I could find. However, it is the same chart that is shown in the full report.

The chart shows increases in virtually every sector of the economy: 154,535 in manufacturing, 105,470 in finance & insurance, 792,248 in health & social services, 507,784 in retail trade, and 97,738 in "other services, just to name a few. The chart shows only 16,037 government jobs, which I found interesting given the number of new enrollees in a single payer system, and the number of government employees that would be needed to support tens of millions of new enrollees.

I'm generally in favor of a single payer system, but I don't want the potential costs and benefits to be glossed over or sexed up in order to "sell it" to the American people. I think the nation needs a fair, open, and honest debate about such a huge change to the manner in which the healthcare industry operates in America.
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #118
120. I understand - you don't want to inadvertently sell a dishonest proposal - but we cut out
Edited on Tue May-05-09 07:22 AM by Dragonfli
an extremely large middle man with a far more excessive bureaucracy (insurance).

If I sell a mellon for 5 dollars and I am the farmer it costs 5 dollars.
A snake oil salesman comes along - gives me five dollars - produces nothing yet charges 8 dollars for mellon extract and he decides the amount of tincture to give you. The less he puts in the bottle, the more money he makes.

Our current profit based system is similar but worse in that they mark up the snake oil to also pay a very large staff that has as it's only job the responsibility to find out how to put less in the bottle. (sometimes they even fill it with water deciding you don't need it).

As for the jobs, I believe it is obvious that if I don't have to pay insurance for my employees, I can spend more on labor.

Here are more resources for you to see how clearly it is cheaper, not more expensive, to take out a large profit earning middle man with insanely large bureaucracy (remember they provide 0% of the actual health care).

Common sense alone should make much of this clear but there are good studies on the subject.

It may help you understand if you do some research here:
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_resources.php
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
101. knr nt
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proud patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
103. k and r
:kick:
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dugaresa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
107. Actually if they use the Medicare model they will outsource the work to the big insurance groups
50 states with all the administration of handling 300 million people's healthcare needs. The network exists, just have the companies that do it now bid on the contracts.

If they wanted to be successful they will break the country into regions or let each state negotiate which insurance companies will handle the healthcare of the state's residents. It will end medicaid. Everyone will be insured due in part to residency in the state.

I would put a requirement that all folks handling claims be legal US residents (to insure employment of US citizens) and to keep the data in this country.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
110. Obama doesn't have to reinvent the wheel -- simply change age of Medicare to include all--!!!
And we are set to go --

Obama knows this -- he knows what the public wants --

but the pressures directly on him are not in the public interest.

Help support Howard Dean's work on Single Payer -- at least that OPTION to compete

with insurance companies.
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farmboxer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
112. America is a plutocracy
we must get the money out of politics. Congress members already have universal health care, but don't want us to get it because of their masters the insurance companies. People mean nothing to insurance companies, only profit. I fear we will never get health care for everyone. They think "We The People" are stupid!
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asteroid2003QQ47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #112
129. If "they" were wrong we'd have health care for everyone...
would we not?
--------------------
As the 21st century began, human evolution was at a turning point. Natural selection, the process by which the strongest, the smartest, the fastest, reproduced in greater numbers than the rest, a process which had once favored the noblest traits of man, now began to favor different traits. Most science fiction of the day predicted a future that was more civilized and more intelligent. But as time went on, things seemed to be heading in the opposite direction. A dumbing down. How did this happen? Evolution does not necessarily reward intelligence. With no natural predators to thin the herd, it began to simply reward those who reproduced the most, and left the intelligent to become an endangered species.
--Narrator, IDIOCRACY
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
131. I think the best path to single payer is to have a public competitor
and count on common sense and self preservation to win out and starve the beast. You know more or less what the Republicans do but siphon resources from for profits to the government option.

If we can arrive at the same place and skip the intermediate steps then fine but I doubt it will be palatable in the short term to suddenly kill that many jobs. Here in Louisville, I'd bet that Humana may well be our 3rd leading employer, not to mention the other outfits with a sizable footprint. I don't think we can afford to scuttle this many jobs in the current economy and public option would allow a much smoother (though, obviously slower) transition. If not it is at least possible that a mixed bag works best for our country, I don't think so but it is possible.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. How does a private plan 'compete' with a public plan?
I don't get this.

For example: how would a private, for profit Fire Department compete with an existing public, tax funded Fire Department?

:shrug:
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