China's Electric Car will eat GM alive. EV-1 meet the F3

[upi402]

GM made many stupid decisions. When they falsely claimed that people didn't want the EV1 electric car and scrapped them all, they hit a low mark.
People were on long waiting lists to buy the EV1.

Now it seems that China will eat our lunch... and dinner too. They came out with the F3 electric car and GM still has big oil on its lips from kissing the devil.

If you want to see the 3 minute clip about it, here;
http://www.journeyman.tv/

Or my fave;
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3628

[Cary]

1. Seems like battery is still the issue.

Not that GM is so great, mind you. It is certainly within their power to screw everything up.

But competition is good, and 66 miles is better than 40. So it's progress. But no one has eaten anyone alive, yet, and China needs these things even more than we do at the moment.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Um, energy is ALWAYS the issue...

0th law of thermo: we keep score
1st law of thermo: you can't win
2nd law of thermo: you can't tie

The only question is how much are we going to lose by. Energy is not only always the issue, it's also pretty much the *only* issue - though you have to scratch below the surface a bit to see that direction.

[calmblueocean]

2. The reason most Chinese cars don't sell here is because they don't meet our safety standards.

If you go on YouTube, you can see crash tests of many Chinese models where the car hasn't been designed to protect the occupants in a crash, and ends up flying apart, with the engine in the driver's lap. Safety costs money and relies on the knowledge gained from experience. The F3 is BYD's very first car. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach here.

[Auggie]

4. That's the number one reason I wouldn't buy a Chinese car

[Warpy]

5. Their emissions standards have been lagging, too

although I think that they've started to tighten those up, if only in honor of last year's Summer Olympics.

However, if they manage to develop a small enclosed car that will do close to a hundred miles before needing a charge, they'll corner the market.

And yes, GM was monumentally stupid when they scrapped the EV-1. Yes, it would have been a toy for wealthier urbanites, but it would have sold.

[asphalt.jungle]

3. isn't the way we (and them) generate most of our electricity "dirty" as well?

i don't see how we can have enough clean generating of electricity that can support what we do now across the world and then add cars and other modes of transportation on top of that. i guess they have to figure out how to get the sun's energy directly from outer space and then beam it down here.

[upi402]

7. China to build 20 hydroelectric dams by 2020 on Yangtze

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090421/ap_on_re_as/as_china_hydropower

And their 3 Gorges dam is already harming wetlands and fish, since 2003.

I'm old enough to remember the Japanese making shaky little cars after a history of making cheap, crappy products. It will happen, I figure, it's just a matter of how soon. But if we don't get off our doughy corporate asses we will start showing ribs in very short order.

[The Traveler]

15. 3 Gorges Damn

has been described as an environmental disaster. Hydropower is not without its environmental consequences. Water management is going to become an ever more crucial issue throughout Asia and Europe as glaciers continue to melt, and these requirements are likely to conflict with power production requirements. I expect coal burning for bulk electrical production to be continued for a long time, and that bites.

And electric cars are themselves no panacea ... even though really impressive performance can be achieved with modern electric motors and batteries.

Right now, I think electric cars appear to be losers from a carbon emissions viewpoint. The process of combustion -> kinetic energy (turbine) -> electrical power generation -> transmission -> storage -> kinetic energy (car) is lengthly and there are lots of inefficiencies encountered along the way. The process of combustion -> kinetic energy (car) is shorter and likely to be in the end more thermodynamically efficient. I've read conflicting analysis of that ... and I have been wrong before ... but right now I am not a believer.

I am really excited about bio-diesel fuel produced from algae ... largely because the net atmospheric carbon impact is about zero. (Yeah, we're still burning stuff with that but we are least not burning stuff that held carbon locked in the earth for millions of years.)

Our big problem remains ... bulk electrical power generation with lowered or preferably zero emissions. Nuclear is the obvious solution ... but presents significant issues and massive potential risks. With the dissolution of unions and the manufacturing sector in this country, one wonders if we still retain the skills absolutely necessary to construct safe nuclear power plants. Frankly, I think we need to seek a better solution.

Trav

[ContinentalOp]

12. Electric cars are cleaner that gas cars even if you use only the dirtiest coal burning plants.

"a study by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power concludes that, over a 100,000-mile life cycle, a standard gas car would produce 3,000 pounds of pollutants, and an EV (electric vehicle) with power from a coal-fired power plant would produce just 100 pounds."
http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-green/blogs/cars-transportation/fuel-cells-electric-cars-460409

In addition it's far easier to regulate the emissions from a handful of electric plants than to regulate the emissions from millions of tailpipes.

[asphalt.jungle]

18. that's great to know

but people want to get rid of coal plants as well.

when people want to set up wind farms out in the ocean someone is complaining about their sight lines. when we want to set up solar panel farms in the desert, there is some animal's home we're invading. hydropower reeks havoc on the environment. nuclear is damn near perfect except for the damn near part that's a killer.

hopefully the scientists figure something out because we're desperately in need.

[ContinentalOp]

24. Put the solar at the source.

Residential solar panels, require solar on all government buildings, cover blistering hot wallmart and costco parking lot with solar awnings. It will come.

[Touchdown]

25. That's the beauty of electric cars.

No matter how the electricity is created, the car is still compatible. Replace coal plants with wind farms, the car doesn't know the difference.

Bio-Diesel doesn't have that advantage. Older diesel cars have to be converted for use.

And 90 miles a day would only suit the needs of 94% of the population.

[DainBramaged]

6. I guess the fact that they can't meet our safety standards on a bad day means nothing?

Amateurs, don't ya love 'em?

:eyes:

[upi402]

8. The Japanese learned pretty well. Think the Chinese wont?

I really think the Chinese will figure it out very quickly as there's money to be made. The Chinese are the mercantile class in Asia. We are amatures, arrogant, short-sighted amatures.

Car safety is not rocket science. Hey... :tinfoilhat: "rocket science"... hmmm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26727454/
:pals:

[DainBramaged]

9. How many years before they catch up? Five? Ten? You don't think

we'll have lept past them in technology by then?

Foreign lovers, the people who think America MEANS CHEAP.

Look for Chinese car tests on YouTube. Then get back to me.

[anigbrowl]

32. No, I don't. You need to get over this 'we're #1' attitude.

We may have leapt past them in the technology by then, if we work hard at it. It's by no means a given. There's a nasty undercurrent of nationalism in your posts which I find pretty offensive, perhaps because Mrs. Browl is from Asia.

[spoony]

10. Sounds like you're in a rooting mood.

Nice that you've found a side to support, too bad it isn't the American workers'.

[upi402]

28. actually it's the opposite

I marched, protested, was politically active, donated when I was broke, etc etc etc - against NAFTA and GATT before they were passed and after too.

And this is just another pointless alarm bell I'm sounding that will not be heard, or if so, misunderstood - I guess.

I don't blame you for jumping there, however. I'm jumpy as hell too these days. Tired of getting stomped on by corporatist fools that made this mess.

[madrchsod]

11. until last year gm was the largest producers of vehicles in the world

i guess someone wanted to buy a gm product. i hope you`ll be happy in your chinese automobile


lithium will be the next oil...china,tibet,and bolivia have the largest known reserves in the world.

[ContinentalOp]

13. I don't think America is ready for Chinese cars yet, but I could be wrong.

Maybe in another decade or two. People are already wary enough about the lead and melamine and crap that ends up in their other products. Most people are just too lazy to check the label of everything they buy and too cheap to care 100% of a time, but for a major purchase like a car, it's going to be a tough sell at first.

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. When the Chinese can make *drywall* without fucking it up, give me a ring

I wouldn't put my kid on a Chinese tricycle.

[LeftHander]

16. RIGHT! They used the drywall to make powdered milk instead....

lol

[Better Believe It]

21. Ring! Ring!

Don't worry.

One they get some strong government controls over the capitalists, ones that we also need, they'll do very well.

How many years did it take to make relatively safe cars in the United States .... seatbelts, airbags, better construction, impact resistance, etc.,?

A long time.

The Chinese capitalists are fast learners. They won't take so long especially with a strong government looking over their shoulder.

While they are at it they just might save American capitalists from themselves.

[RollWithIt]

17. I don't care if it drives 1000000000 miles on a 30 minute charge and does 200mph

I am NOT ever buying a Chinese made car. Ever. I'd consider the Korean stuff, Hyundai or Kia, but never a chinese vehicle.

[Better Believe It]

20. If it does that we'll all buy it! In fact, if it does 100 miles on an overnight charge and

has good pickup and can eaily attain freeway speeds I'm a buyer!

Why not?

Unless GM, Ford, Chrysler, Japan, Korea or some European manufacturer can do better.

[anigbrowl]

33. Well that was a convincing argument. I'm totally persuaded now.

[Burma Jones]

19. I try to avoid buying any Chinese product with moving parts......

But, sometimes it's impossible to find an alternative.

[Pavulon]

29. It just costs more, they make shit

really. They are the low bid product and anything that you want to protect your life.

Vehicles, safety gear, etc I prefer to come from well regulated countries. I have never seen a product from china that is not made better in a first world nation.

This crash test equals death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A&feature=related

[depakid]

22. Portland to electric car maker BYD Auto: Build your car here.

Representatives from BYD Auto of Shenzhen have met with Gov. Ted Kulongoski, U.S. Sen. Gordon Smith, Mayor Tom Potter, Mayor-elect Sam Adams, and a host of other local dignitaries who are chasing a collective dream: to persuade the Chinese carmaker to make Portland its distribution hub, its North American headquarters or even – buckle your seatbelt – its U.S. manufacturing base.

“It’s still more a dream than a goal,” says Rick Snyder, CEO of EcoMotion, an electric-car dealer on Northeast Sandy Boulevard. “At first blush, it seems like we’re a long way from Detroit. But we do have some manufacturing expertise – we should really jump on this opportunity.”

“The potential is there,” agrees Jin Lan, a China business consultant based in Vancouver, Wash., who was instrumental in bringing the two sides together. “Oregon has a very good name in China in regard to sustainability. This would be a natural fit.”

BYD has galvanized the electric-car business with an innovative plug-in design. Its “dual mode” models run on battery power at all speeds for the first 60 miles. In other words, the gasoline engine only kicks in if you drive more than 60 miles between rechargings.

BYD’s cars can be recharged by plugging into a conventional 110-volt wall socket, or a special 220-volt charging station. The batteries require nine hours to recharge completely, but can be charged to 80 percent of capacity within just 15 minutes. Altogether, the cars have a range of approximately 260 miles between refuelings or rechargings. “This is like a hybrid on steroids,” says Scott Newcombe of EcoMotion. “I’d buy one tomorrow.”

BYD representatives sound cautiously optimistic. While remaining noncommittal, Henry Li, general manager of BYD’s automobile sales division, told Sustainable Life that he was impressed by Portland’s green reputation. “The top factor is a place that is environmentally friendly, where people have a green mind-set,” Li said. “That’s very important.”

<snip>

One reason BYD’s cars boast a longer range than competitors’ has to do with the company’s history. Originally, it was a manufacturer of batteries – in fact, BYD holds 30 percent of the cell-phone battery market worldwide, according to Li.

“You could say we are battery experts,” he says.

The batteries that power BYD’s cars are ferrous units, which rely on a different chemistry than conventional lithium-ion batteries, and offer better performance with less risk of overheating.

More: http://www.portlandtribune.com/sustainable/story.php?story_id=122090792762233800

[Better Believe It]

23. Just hope they don't go to non-union Alabama!

[upi402]

26. Wow, imagine that!

It's as if the Japanese auto makers built plants here.... hey, wait a minute....
:think:
Seattle, sister city to the north, has it's hands full of "Boeing" right now. But I paid more tax than Boeing, I think, so it is possible BYD look at Seattle. There are plenty of bored engineers and technicians wandering from espresso stand to espresso stand at the moment.

[anonymous171]

27. I would never buy anything Chinese made. Chinese manufacturers are too cheap to

and will sometimes try to cut way too many corners.

Case-in-point:

http://ecochildsplay.com/2009/01/02/chinese-families-reject-290-payout-for-melamine-milk-scandal/

[Pavulon]

30. Test footage..If this were a person they would be well dead...

they make low bid shit. Buying shirts that fall apart and crap coffee makers because the undercut the market is one thing. I will NEVER use a vehicle from there. My life is worth more than what ever price point they come up with.

Death
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5SRyG6UR2A&feature=related
Life
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlMHYCPRVH8
15 years or so of camry models. Note the early 90's models outperform Chinese coffin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIqHP3yX5g8

[anigbrowl]

34. Yeah yeah. Look inside your computer, you probably already have.

People used to say the same thing about the Japanese. Strangely, I seem to do fine dealing with things on a case by case basis. Some chinese products suck, some are very good.

[baldguy]

31. That's fine with GM - it's all according to plan.

EV1 - union made

F3 - built by slave labor

No matter how autos come to be powered in the coming years, they won't be built by American middle-class union workers.

[upi402]

35. Yep, and it seems that's all they care about

alongside the CEO's and shareholders scooping in million$.
It's like a zero sum game to them. MNC's don't care if a country fails and know no national loyalty. Capitalisms fatal flaw. It kills its host just after it dominates it. Like a virus more than a parasite.

[david13]

37. GM has eaten themself alive. They gnawed off their foot about 10 years ago

and have been on total self destruct for a long time.
dc