you hear the argument that if we close bases around the world and

[ensho]

bring many of the troops home it would be a bad thing. to wall us off from the world.

they always add the last part. we can't wall ourselves from the world. isolate ourselves.

since nobody said a word about walling or isolating this argument is a subject changer.


we can close bases and still deal with the world daily, no walls, no isolation.

the neo cons add the wall/isolate words to change the subject. we have to stop them from doing that.

close some bases, like soon. train the returning troops in the way of HAZMAT and have them clean up the toxic military bases.

[rcrush]

1. Damn right

Like the only way to have relations with other countries is to occupy military bases in their country. Theres no real good reason that we still have bases in places like Japan or Germany. One of the few things Bill Maher said that was true was "these people are going to have to learn to rape themselves."

[MADem]

2. Military people aren't robots. They sign a contract to perform specific duties in the service.

They're trained, at no small expense, to do those jobs. More frequently than not, the job is combat arms, but not always. They aren't "trained"--nor did they sign up--to pick up toxic shit.

It astounds me how so many progressives can treat people in uniform--their relatives, friends and neighbors--like some sort of inhuman "other" to be used for purposes other than the national defense--a slave force, in essence. These people aren't conscripts, they're volunteers. That's a great way to demotivate volunteerism.

The US has companies that are already highly skilled in cleaning up toxic waste. There's no need to retrain military personnel, or expose them to danger as a result of slipshod training, to clean up a superfund site.


Lousy idea.

[ensho]

4. you are assuming the training would be slip shod?

why shouldn't the military clean up their own nests?

is clean up a demeaning thing to a 'warrior'?

cleaning up the bases would help clean up the earth. that's a good thing. a patriotic thing.

[MADem]

13. Because it takes many years to become expert in hazard abatement.

It takes specialized training and expertise. You need geologists, land management/reclaiming specialists, it's not a two week course at Sears Hazmat School.

It's a stupid and uninformed idea. You don't send amateurs to do a job that requires expert know how, unless you devalue both the work AND the people you are sending to do it. You get what you pay for.

You apparently don't realize that part of the entire Base Closure and Realignment scheme, which has been going on for what, two decades, now, is identification of contaminated facilities on bases (and some of that goes back to WW2) and funding for base cleanup before the facility is turned back to the town/municipality for civilian reuse. By PROFESSIONALS. Those costs do come out of DOD, and they're budgeted annually by Congress.

[izquierdista]

22. Bullshit!

There are jobs in environmental remediation at all levels. As it is now, the work is contracted out to private concerns that use all types of workers from entry level to research scientist. If the military can train its employees to fly and maintain aircraft and operate nuclear submarines, there is no reason why they can't train them to clean up the messes they have made. It might even save the government money.

[MADem]

23. No, not bullshit. You're going to take a highly trained intel specialist and have them pick up shit

for what purpose? To make you feel better? Superior? Self righteous?

You're going to take a weapons expert, a corpsman/medic, a pilot or an airframe and powerplant mechanic... and have them shovel crap?

Your lack of respect for people in uniform is palpable. They sign up to do a job in an area of expertise, and you want to treat them like slaves. I get the distinct impression, too, that you see this as "punishment." Your attitude is profoundly ignorant.

FWIW, "they" didn't make the messes. The Department of Defense, acting on behalf of, and with the authority, like it or not, of YOU and the rest of us, did. As I said, and you didn't fucking read, apparently, most of those messes go back to WW2. We've been VERY good at watching contamination for oh, two decades at least, now. Most of the kids you'd want to "punish" would have not even been born when most of that contamination was happening.

It never saves the government money to use military personnel when contract civilians will do. If you don't need the military people, you schedule a RIF and get rid of them. If you keep them, you pay their salaries, their health care, the health care for their kids, their kids' school costs (yes--DOD pays local school districts several thousand per child for the added burden/cost of educating military brats), the housing for the families, the moving costs, the dental care--it's a bundle. And we're not even getting to the pensions for people who stay for twenty years. Why do you think BLACKWATER came to be? Even at obscene salaries for those guys--it's CHEAPER. Contracting is ALWAYS cheaper.

But hey, you want to "punish" servicemembers, because you don't like the decisions that a chickenhawk named Bush made.

Not smart. Not cool.

[razors edge]

33. I would.

I came out of the Marines with a lot of hands on Aircraft maintenance training and experience and the FAA wouldn't even let me test for an A&P license.

I ended up working on lawnmowers for four years till I got a better paying job, cleaning up hazardous waste.

If I had been given the 40 hour of HAZWOPPER 1910.120 training and gotten the field experience in the service, I could have skipped fixing leaf blowers and weed eaters for minimum wage.

Not a big market out there for demolition experts and tank repairmen.

Of course those jobs pay much more than the service does and retention would become an issue.

[MADem]

34. Well, I feel sorry for you but I have to say I don't know why the FAA wouldn't "let" you do what

you wanted. Sounds to me like you lacked some formal certification.

I know a ton of A and P mechanics who got their training in the military, Vietnam and post-Vietnam, who are FAA certified, and working in their chosen field for both helo and fixed wing concerns, so I don't know why they had it "in" for you.

The GI Bill should have been the way for you to go. Even the crappy VEAP of days gone by would have enabled you to get sufficient certification.

[razors edge]

36. Because of the way the military trains it's people.

I was an F-4 Hydraulics mechanic, which is an Airframes trade, like metal shop, Etc. The P in the license is for Power-plants, if you were to re-enlist about six times and were lucky enough to be granted an MOS change each time and sent back to school you could get all the training needed, but you would be too old to work on planes by then.

The civilian A&P school I toured offered to give me two weeks off the normal 13 week course, but I got a job offer in Haz Mat instead paying three times as much.

I'm not upset at the Military (not anymore) but I got the feeling they did the division of labor and training in order to keep people right where they were at.

[MADem]

40. Well, I just don't understand that. I know a load of fellows who did one to three tours

in Vietnam, and we're talking short tours, too, who have their A and P licenses, so I don't understand why you insist it would take you forever to get yours. You should have simply used your GI Bill and invested the lousy eleven weeks in school to check those certification blocks--that's less than three months.

[razors edge]

43. With a six month old baby

and a wife to support that wasn't a choice.

Besides, when I toured the school I was told after graduation and obtaining my A&P I would be considered a licensed A&P with three and half years experience and could be bringing down the awesome amount of $9.00/hr rebuilding brakes at Atlanta international after just 12.5 months (it was 13 months not weeks, sorry if I mistyped that) without a full time job.

I was an on aircraft testing and troubleshooting technician, Made E-4 by 19, and had been around the world and back twice. Cutting scores made for E-5 if I re-upped, but that wasn't my long term goal, a Hillbilly who hadn't seen home for four years doesn't do that.

The environmental company gave 40 hours Haz Mat and paid me $11.00 an hour to start, I was up to $60,000 a year and Regional Feild Services Supervisor in less than two years.

I'm bagging double that with a new 2500 Chevy 4WD every two years gas, insurance, maintenance and taxes covered. BCBS, a mill in life coverage and a defined benefits package, 15-20 K X-mas bonuses. No dirt under the nails unless I want to get into the shit and no boss within 350 miles.

I'm glad I didn't go to the school, if you know what I mean.

Not bad for a high school drop out from Huntington WV. (yes I did get get a GED, and little more)

[MADem]

48. Ah, months IS different from weeks, certainly.

And your family situation was a consideration, too. You ended up ok, at the end of the day.

[razors edge]

71. Yeh, it worked out.

But to use the words of the immortal Garcia, "what a long, strange trip it's been."

[Buzz Clik]

3. We have bases to ensure rapid military access. It has nothing to do with isolation.

That argument is just bullshit to sell us on the other.

[L0oniX]

60. "rapid military access" to someone elses country, not ours.

[napi21]

5. The one thing that always concerned me about bringing everyone

home is massive unemployment.

Sure there are some jobs that are transferrable to the private sector, but I suspect they're in the minority. I have no idea how many people we have stationed abroad, but it has to be in the hundreds of thousands. Where are all those people going to make a living in the US???

[ensho]

7. their living is the military - bringing them home doesn't mean their term

is up.

[MADem]

29. The DOD can rif them at any time--early outs were common in the nineties.

They were common after Vietnam, Korea, and WW2 too. The enlisted personnel get discharged at the convenience of the government. The officers serve at the pleasure of the President anyway, and he can tell his Secretary of Defense to tell the Service Secretaries to send a bunch of 'em home.

[bluebellbaby]

9. I found this link that might help

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa012301b.htm

It says that there are 200,000 permanently stationed troops abroad and 45,000 in other areas...

This number doesn't include Iraq or Afghanistan...

[MADem]

35. We don't have people "permanently" stationed there, that's why.

They "deploy" to those areas.

[razors edge]

47. Were you ever "permanently" stationed anywhere?

I was "deployed" to Japan twice, if six decades of occupation isn't something to be considered permanent, just where do you draw the line on that terminology?

70 years? 2000 years?

Give me a hint so I don't disturb your sensibilities on the issue.

[MADem]

53. Please see post fifty two.

My comments were in response to IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.

Snarkiness is an unattractive quality, FWIW.

[razors edge]

76. Nothing personal,

I just get a little punchy after 30 of 40 beers. (just kidding, it was only 4 or five)

It is a legitimate point. All empires fall and I don't like a lot of what I see happening to the troops, making them hitchhike home after we go broke would be really bad.

[MADem]

77. I think Obama is determined to be a responsible Commander in Chief.

I think he takes a sober view of the duty, and I think he also understands why civilian control of the military is a good thing (in the right hands, of course). My glass is half full (of juice, though, doggone it).

[razors edge]

80. I agree completely.

He will need more time to get his people established and tested before he goes after the hard stuff.

I think he will when the time is right.

[Obamanaut]

54. self delete - responded to wrong post

[MADem]

56. Please see post fifty two. Your PCS orders were to a ship, and if that

ship was in the IO, or the PI, or whereever, that's where you reported. The vessel was HOMEPORTED in Pearl, and FORWARD DEPLOYED to Yokosuka.

I know how orders are cut. I've got decades of experience reading, writing and executing them.

[Obamanaut]

50. I was assigned to the USS Midway which was permanently stationed

in Yokosuka, as were many other ships.

There ARE people who are permanently assigned to bases. And, some people do deploy to some of those places. Navy P3 squadrons, for example, during my career would deploy for several months to bases that had permanent personnel. Note that by permanent I mean folks who are stationed there for a period of two to three years.

Edited to add that I was with the Midway for two years.

[MADem]

52. Excuse me? Please read what I wrote.

We don't have people permanently stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan.

FWIW, not that it matters in the big scheme, you weren't permanently stationed on the MIDWAY--you were "forward deployed." There's a difference. Midway's homeport, even though she spent so long overseas that half of the equipment on that ship was metric, was actually Hawaii: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/carriers/histories/cv41-midway/cv41-midway.html

On 5 October 1973, Midway, with CVW 5, put into Yokosuka, Japan, marking the first forward-deployment of a complete carrier task group in a Japanese port as the result of an accord arrived at on 31 August 1972 between the U.S. and Japan. In addition to the morale factor of dependents housed along with the crew in a foreign port, the move had strategic significance because it facilitated continuous positioning of three carriers in the Far East at a time when the economic situation demanded the reduction of carriers in the fleet....In August 1991, Midway departed Yokosuka and returned to Pearl Harbor. Here, she turned over with USS Independence (CV 62) which was replacing Midway as the forward-deployed carrier in Yokosuka. Midway then sailed to San Diego where she was decommissioned at North Island Naval Air Station on 11 April 1992. She was stricken from the Navy List on 17 March 1997.


We did have people "permanently stationed" in Japan, though. They were installation personnel located at Yokosuka, Yokota, Atsugi, Iwakuni, Okinawa, etc., etc. I never implied that we didn't. Once again--My comments with regard to permanently stationed personnel were about Iraq and Afghanistan. Those people are DEPLOYED, not permanently stationed.

You need to read what people write before you respond too quickly. It will reduce misunderstanding.

[Obamanaut]

55. OK, I will if you will. Odd, though, that the order I received were

for "PCS." I guess that age has dimmed my memory as to the meaning of permanent.

As to the other, I included this "...It says that there are 200,000 permanently stationed troops abroad and 45,000 in other areas..." in your use of "there" rather than limiting "there" to only Iraq and Afghanistan.

[MADem]

57. One more time. You PCS'd to a SHIP. Not a base, and not a city.

If MIDWAY changed ports from Yokosuka to Subic while you were on the plane, you wouldn't have spent two to four years in Japan. Your ass would have been hustled to Yokota and you would have been flown to Cubi Point to meet the SHIP--not the city or base--the SHIP--to which you PCS'd.

Go read the post I responded to. Read the whole thing. Only a parser with a desire to fight over meaningless bullshit could misunderstand my remarks. I was plainly responding to the notation of the EXCEPTION of Iraq and Afghanistan in the post.

[Obamanaut]

58. Gee, you're sensitive. I surely did not mean to question your

expertise and start an argument over what to many could be considered semantics. I was on the ship. Every time the ship pulled in where the families were waiting, it was in Yokosuka. Gosh, I'm sorry. Please accept my apology. I will never, ever doubt you again.

[MADem]

59. It's not semantics. It is what it is. I'm not the one snarking about

your tours of duty, after all. Your family was billeted in Yokosuka because the ship was forward-deployed. You actually could have left them in Hawaii if you'd have liked--of course, you wouldn't have seen much of them.

You can't get away with tossing childishly snide remarks, though, and then get irritated when people notice.

FWIW, I provided a CHINFO link, too, to back up what I said. So don't be worried about doubting me--if you doubt anyone, it's the Chief of Naval Information.

Have a nice day--if that's possible for you to manage with that pisspoor attitude of yours.

[L0oniX]

62. Uhm dude we are seeing over 1/2 million people getting layed off here every month.

Would another 250,000 make that much difference? The money we spend to maintain outside bases is not just for their pay checks. There's a lot of money that we could put into creating new jobs here that is now going to other countries.

[bluebellbaby]

6. I saw an article that said Bush destroyed the Foreign Services Corp.

That there were literally thousands of positions he never filled...and that it would take years to rebuild the Forgein Services again with qualified people...

Now, wouldn't having ambassadors and negiotiators "on the ground" in foreign countries...be a bit more logical...

Unless...your you really don't want to work with other countries that is...and "working with the world is "only at the end of a gun".

Maybe these facts should be brought into the discussion...

Rebuild the Forgein Services and remove the troops...

[ensho]

8. yes

nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

10. It would nice to see the troops employed doing something useful for a change.

I spent 4 long years in the marine crotch doing absolutely nothing of any benefit to anyone save the arms industry. And, there have been, and still are millions of people doing the same right now, all over the world.

[ensho]

11. agree

nt

[Bigmack]

12. Me too... absolutely nothing of benefit, but think...

of how Boot Camp would have to change. Bayonet drill replaced by Tree Planting Drill. Warriors becoming Eco-Warriors. What would your "War Face" look like?

The Corps always loves those pics of Marines giving toys to tots and shit like that. Just think of the field day the Crotch would have with whole herds of Marines doing good things.

The TV ads with all the monkey-marching and swords and shit would have to change, too.

Nope...not gonna happen. Probably just have to find new, unfertilized fields to plant with more foreign bodies.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. Bayonet/Hand to hand training is where I got the best advice.

The instructor said, "If anyone get's that close to you, run like a stripey assed zebra". Possibly the only good advice I got in 4 years.

[Seeking Serenity]

14. You think Europeans, Koreans, Filipinos, etc., hate us now?

Just wait for the vitriol to be occasioned upon us when we start closing bases and bringing troops back home.

The economic damage to those locales would be substantial.

(Not that I think bringing economic opportunites to foreign areas is the raison d'etre our military is overseas, but that economic reality does exist).

[Mari333]

15. who cares

thats our tax money keeping those places alive and it would be better used here. I dont want to fund 'policing the world.'

[anonymous171]

18. They can't have it both ways.

They can't be all "GO AWAY AMERIKKKA" and expect to get economic aid. If they want us gone, which many of them do, then they will have to face the consequence of our absence.

[MADem]

25. We haven't had bases in the Philippines for decades.

We keep Korea because the war isn't over there, yet. If it were, we wouldn't be guarding the DMZ.

The reason we keep bases in Germany and Japan (though we have downsized and consolidated there tremendously) is because they want us there. If their governments said "Get the fuck outta here" we'd be gone. Their governments have limited militaries, with limited ability to defend themselves, and it's that way because we helped them write their postwar constitutions. In fact, the Japanese pay US to do some of their defense work for them, by funding the salaries of Japanese civilian personnel who work on military bases. They know they're getting off easy and cheap by not having to do it all themselves.

As for other locations in Europe, many are joint facilities (Rota, Spain, Sigonella, Sicily, eg) and the "boss" is a local national. Most people don't realize that foreign nations have facilities (not large, but they're here) on US soil, too. The Turkish military has a little procurement outfit in PA, the Germans have a little gated doodad out at Dulles Airport. We pay a fortune for those bases that we acquire as stepping stones and predeployment staging areas--they're not "free." And we also do a lot of mil-to-mil training as well with host nations. It's much more complex than it appears on the surface.

[Johonny]

41. I agree

Which makes it seem like a good thing to me. Threaten to close these places and see if they do respond favorably or not. If they beg us to keep them open, that sounds like a positive US PR move to me. If they don't then it saves the US $$.

[L0oniX]

63. Yea ...the same thing happens at Walmart when I don't shop there anymore. They hate me now.

[anonymous171]

16. Moderate Isolation wouldn't be that bad.

Mild protectionist policies combined with restrictive immigration policies would probably help us in the long run.

[MADem]

26. Ironically, that's where the GOP is headed. It ain't their war anymore, so they want

to pull up the drawbridge and put the sharks in the moat. No immigrants, and a fake protectionist economy.

[anonymous171]

28. The sons of Reagan will never support protectionism.

[MADem]

31. The Sons of Reagan are irrelevant. That's what the GOP is saying at their little

retooling pizza parties.

Ears up, eyes open--the GOP is changing before our eyes. They're becoming the party of Pat Buchanan, with a little environmentalism and conservation thrown in for good measure.

[razors edge]

46. That is exactly what Jeb said.

Small improvement, sort of like throwing carpet fresh on a dog turd without picking up the turd.

It could work for them, they have gotten pretty far with nothing but the same old dried up shit in the past.

Edit:sp

[MADem]

49. I think we cannot rest on our laurels. The thing that will get US is the same thing that got the

GOP--hubris. Power corrupts, and all that.

The GOP is retooling. It's more than just surface shit, it's to the bone. That's why you're seeing a young woman (McCain), a black guy (Steele), and an Indian American (Jindal) as lead dog spokesmodels on this "We're Changing" tour. They're going to leave the far right behind, and go after what I call the "mushy middle." The independents and the easily persuadable slobs are their new targets. The people who just like to hear something a bit different are the ones they're seeking. This will not happen overnight--I think they'll take the better part of a decade, at least, to do this. But one day we'll wake up and see that they're not what they used to be--just like what happened with the Democrats when LBJ fashioned The Great Society and bullied the Congress into passing it.

They'll abandon the Nixonian southern strategy, that capitalized on anger over LBJ's civil rights legislation, and they'll refashion themselves in the regional mold--the New England regional mold, only they'll write it on a larger scale. Once upon a time, a northeastern Republican was a "classy" thing. It's opposite, in every way, was a racist cracker Democrat from the South. If these guys start "framing," that's what they'll do--frame themselves as sensible, reasonable, frugal, "caring about the individual," kinds of folks. Eschew foreign adventurism. Pay your bills. Look after one another (but not too much). Lower taxes, stop spending treasury money like drunken sailors, that kind of thing. It's a "Do your homework, eat your peas, brush your teeth" kind of attitude--parental, but not overbearing. Ward and June Cleaver-ish.

I think if we don't keep our eyes peeled and see, clearly, what they're doing, we could have trouble.

I actually think that the Obama administration does see the trend, and that's why you see so many blocking moves by them. The whole "disagree without being disagreeable" thing; the prolife Democrats coming to the fore; the co-opting of Specter...it's all part of a game being played out in the MIDDLE of the field. The far right and the far left have very little to say about this (and it is pissing them off, too--both sides), because the weight and mass being fought over are in the middle, not on the edges.

[razors edge]

73. I believe you are right.

They have been pack-peddling and cover ass so fast you would thing they were naked unicyclists. They hope, no they depend, on the short memory of the US voters. (Maybe a little help from Diebold too)

They saw how Ron Paul was attracting voters with essentially the message you describe, and they did all they could to bury him, they had to. He was what they needed to be but weren't, but if they got behind him and he won he would have been a real threat. He would have carved up a few too many sacred cows like the MIC and the Federal Reserve, that will not do.

As far as Paul being a racist, I kinda doubt it. He is old and talks in ways that were normal in his day. I would would bet he has told an off color joke or two, but I don't believe he holds serious disdain for an actual person based on race. I could be wrong.

He showed them the different path, they will modify it to be able to keep their real vices hidden and active.

Meanwhile the committed liberal and conservative fringes will be minimized, the DHS memos on extremism have that ball rolling, and the power will rule from the middle sharing the sugar. Campaign contribution will dry up in the bad economy and that leaves less money for attack adds, it will be a kumbaya moment for the two parties.

The Dems will back off if they get a few minor concessions, as usual, and we all lose, as usual.

[razors edge]

85. Damn,

I can misspell with the worst of them, please excuse DUers.

[eShirl]

19. jeez, how many other countries have military bases in the United States?

are they all walling themselves off from the world if they do not?

[XOKCowboy]

21. You type faster than I do....

:)

[MADem]

32. Many foreign detachments are located in USA. And pilots from all nations come here for training.

These foreign militaries don't have huge "bases," but they do have a PRESENCE--and of course, they're not big like we are either. But they do have offices and detachments that are here--and this is much more common than most Americans realize. How do you think the Saudi Air Force started up? They learned to fly in California and Texas. We used to train Iraqis, too...AND every pilot the Shah of Iran put in the air. Turks, Jordanians, Germans, Egyptians, Israelis--you name it. They still come. They all want to be Top Gun.

Foreign military officers and cadets attend all of our services' academies, war colleges, graduate schools, and command and staff colleges. I graduated from some of these programs with officers from several dozen foreign countries--to include Taiwanese.

See, they don't wall themselves off from the world either. Most of the foreigners I went to school with made it to at least 0-6. Some became flag/general officers and serve in key positions in their nation's militaries.

[razors edge]

38. All on the US tax dollar.

That is a condition they require before they buy our equipment and allow us to operate those big bases of ours in their countries.

I did a couple West Pac tours and as an enlisted Marine my contact with the natives was probably a little different than that of an Officer's.

I never met a single working class person in Japan or the Philippines who wanted us there, they weren't getting anything from our presence personally like an all expense paid trip to America including free education, food, medical care, and job training with a pay check to boot. Had they been given these things, I can imagine how quickly their perspectives would have come to emulate those of the Officers you associated with.

One of my best friends in the suck was a native Hawaiian, I became close with a lot of his friends and family over the year and a half I spent there, and they had basically the same opinion of our Military presence there.

[MADem]

39. Did you spend your days in the Philippines in chapel?

Angeles City and Subic were decimated after USN and USAF left. The "working class"--many of whom were involved in the booze, hostess and prostitution trade, were left without a source of income. Now, their business may have been unsavory, but it was what it was.

That international port has finally gotten to the point where it's making a little scratch, but it's nothing compared to the money that flowed into the country. And guess what businesses flourish right outside that port? Same shit, different day.

Japan is a different kettle of fish, with a much higher standard of living. They love the fact that we're doing the heavy lifting--they'd simply prefer it if our younger and hornier servicemembers were confined to base.

Funny though, how every time the US suggests to Japan that they take on a bigger bite of the WESTPAC defense pie, so that we can shift assets and draw down, that they suddenly decide they don't dislike us quite so much.

FWIW, "officers" don't run around in their uniforms on liberty, any more than enlisted people do. You meet the same people if you go to the coffee shop, souvenir joint, the disco or the sushi bar or the habu mongoose fights. There aren't separate gangways at these venues based on rank, either.

[razors edge]

45. Subic, 1984 and 85.

I was married at the time and still very young, but faithful. I met an older working girl whom my friends tended to ignore, she must have been at least 29 or 30, and we became friends. She new her way around and didn't have to trick for a living, and I was a little more mature than my counterparts. At the ripe old age of 19 I had been happily married for two years, we hit it off.

She invited me to meet her family who lived outside Olongapo in the countryside and I went along. She neglected to mention I would be the only short haired white American at the pig roast where around twenty AK toting Communist Revolutionaries would be supplying the security in the middle of nowhere. Didn't see too many Officers of the US persuasion there that day.

She was the only one who spoke English, and I don't speak Tagalog, so it made for an interesting day one is not soon to forget.

I still to this day believe the only reason I didn't end up dead in the base water tower (like the Marine they found there a couple days after I had arrived, compliments of the rebels) is that I was raised in similar abject poverty, and was fully at home with it.

That or my friend was better connected to these guys than I could tell, not speaking the tongue and all.

Japan was totally different, the enlisted were not allowed in any of the off base restaurants that were patronized by the locals, at least none we ever found. I never cared for Japanese food anyway so that didn't bother me, but I did feel the lack of love. Officers were a different mater, of course, and the fact that our pilots would visit an establishment off limits to the enlisted was not lost on the underclass.

There weren't separate gangways from the base gates either, of course the Officers drove off the base in rental cars and we had rental bikes, I'm sure none of the locals noticed that difference. Marine F-4 Aviators are also know for their reserved attitudes and low key personalities, I'm told. (not)

I had only one experience in Japan where I and my fellow E's were not treated like "outsiders", that was a trip to Peace Park during the Cherry Blossom festival, we played hackey sack with the kids and drank vending machine beer with their parents, that was a good day.

[MADem]

51. I've got news for you--those No Foreigner signs in the Japanese restaurants

applied to officers as well as enlisted. No gaijin meant no gaijin. If the odd pilot went into such an establishment, it was because he or she was INVITED by locals. I had a master chief who worked for me in Japan who was married to a local woman. He could go anywhere--I couldn't. It's not rank, it's having an "in" with the culture. Being fluent in the language helps, too.

You're also equating "pilots" on TAD, apparently (rental cars? Most people living in Japan drove shitty beaters that were handed down for a few hundred bucks--no one drove a rental car who was permanently stationed there, unless their car was in the shop for a week or so) with permanently stationed personnel. Pilots get ACIP--aviation career incentive pay--that isn't included in the paycheck of the average officer. They also got a meal allowance, and a TAD stipend that guys issued chow passes didn't get. Of course they had money to throw around. The justice at the end of the rainbow was that those F-4 pilots were at the end of their ropes in the eighties--that plane was on the chopping block, and those guys had to transition to another platform, or kiss the Corps goodbye. That was, when it came, a bit of a bloodbath.

Further, the USMC leadership, at Iwakuni and on Okinawa, were douchebags in the way that they managed their personnel. You can't equate your experience to the experience of most enlisted people, because Air Force, Navy and Army didn't treat their enlisted servicemembers like shit. In fact, they got beautifully maintained housing and barracks, and plenty of facilities for their amusement on base, if they didn't feel like going beyond the gate. USMC, though, had fewer facilities on their bases, lousy buildings, spartan equipment--but that spending decision was made by the COMMANDANT, not the Department of the Navy. They tended to use the heavy hand, too, in managing personnel, and the reason they did it is because there was always some junior enlisted ASSHOLE--and yes, asshole is the only way to describe these dumb fucking punks--who would do something like murder a cab driver or rape a young girl--both of these things happened while I was over that way. That would cause a lockdown and "group punishment" because, frankly, the locals didn't like MARINES much. They saw that high and tight haircut, and they recoiled. People who were married and lived offbase (many of whom were officers on two and a half year tours, the enlisted tended to do one year unaccompanied tours) were exempt from said lockdowns. Most had longer hair, too, and could pass for USN/USAF/USA. Now, at the time, pretty much everyone else was on an eighteen month--not one year-- unaccompanied tour, but USMC had such shitty barracks (some left over from WW2) that they considered the assignment a hardship. Consequently, these guys couldn't bring their families with them, and they tended to go out in town and make trouble.

I think a lot of your "enlisted get crapped on" problems had to do with your branch of service, more than your place on the totem pole. I had sailors from E-4 on up who were married to locals, and they never ran into the issues you describe. In fact, a couple of them are out of the service now and living happily overseas, sending me Christmas cards every year.

Just being honest, here.

[razors edge]

70. The few, The proud,The fucked over.

The best barracks we ever saw was a condemned Air Force barracks in Oki. Iwakuni was WWII and Philippines was a 12 foot wide, forty five foot long Quonset Hut with no AC or even a fan. And we were Air Wingers, you can guess what the grunts got.

There were fuck ups a plenty in the Marines, maybe there is something to that battered child syndrome, or maybe they we just natural born assholes. We wingers generally scored higher on the ASVAB and were a little less prone to the really fucked up behavioral problems.

The worst criminal behavior in the my squadron was a Sargent who stabbed a PFC because he thought he was a barracks thief. He got the wrong guy, and about fifteen years in Leavenworth, but the CO should have gotten punished too for calling a formation and warning the thief he would "fall up the stairs" on the way to his office if he was caught. A few years later someone made a movie about a few good men, it was almost like watching a rerun except our PFC lived, barely.

Our tours were six month unaccompanied while supporting our wives in high rent heaven Hawaii. Money was beyond tight, I lived on thirty dollars a week and sent the rest home, every week. We had to split the rent on our binjo bombers and chow hall was the only option for most.

I once saved a pilot and rio when I was sitting across the flight line on turn up. This was Iwakuni. The #2 engine caught fire and nobody noticed, the flame was mostly white but I could tell he was shooting mirages about three times the length of the plane at idle. So I grab the PKP bottle, wheel it over and shoot it down the intake putting out the fire. The Plane Captain went apeshit, told everyone I was seeing things and they believed him, I was put on barracks restriction. The engine had to be pulled the next day and in the process they found the fuel control valve split, it had sprayed fuel into the engine uncontrolled when under pressure. Had they made it out of the chocks and down the runway they would probably have been flying their ejection seats home, or a body bag.

The pilot was my OIC, Capt. Kitchens. He took me out to dinner to thank me, nice place, kinda dark and quiet compared to the chow hall. Upon entering the bouncer approach us hastily waving us off and yelling "NO NO NO". The Captain pulled out his ID card and we were seated and served a fine meal. There were no signs at the door. The Captain told me he had to show his ID regularly and they only let officers in to most of the places they frequented. It wasn't like it was a secret to anyone after all.

Anyway, I never claimed my experience were everyone's experience, only that it did and does happen, take it for what it's worth.

Just being honest, here too.

[MADem]

72. Well, I was senior to your captain, and I've dealt with NO NO NO stuff too.

No amount of ID card showing would solve the problem either--and I'm a mild mannered sort who made friends easily.

My attitude was "Fine, you don't want my money? Sayonara!"

I really think the NO NO NO might have had something to do wtih your captain's high and tight? I wasn't there, so I don't know. There probably was some sort of "deal" made where the owner would allow the officers in, because--face facts-- they were better behaved (though they could act up, too--see below). It wouldn't surprise me if the owner took note of the name of the guy. I do know that a lot of Japanese establishments got tired of Marines acting up--because enough of them did, even if most of them didn't.

I was at a very boring, very formal dinner over that way--interservice, all branches represented, to include Japanese Self-Defense Forces--and a group of Marine Junior Officers celebrating the promotion of one of their own came in wearing matching lurid shirts and shorts and "birth control" glasses, and black socks and dress shoes. They proceeded to take over the room, grabbed the wives of the flag and general officers and spun them around the dance floor, did the "Dead Bug" and marched out. It was a bit of rough housing, most of the wives were amused (though not all), but no one was really harmed--they were in and out in about three minutes.

I will say that the USAF host was bullshit and the USMC guests were a bit livid. Navy and Army were cracking up, because it was funny, and a welcome relief from a stuffy, boring, idiotic and banal affair, and since Navy was SOPA at this shindig, the guys were let go with simply a warning about judgment. That was a bit "over the line," though.

USMC was cheap, no doubt. They were especially cheap with their personnel. USAF were coddlers--they went the other way. Now the standards are much higher for all branches, but back then USA and USN were the median, with USMC the worst and USAF the best in terms of personnel services/comforts to enlisted personnel.

[razors edge]

74. I always liked how the Air Force built a base.

Once the lavish barracks, enlisted, senior enlisted, and officer's clubs, the golf courses, the pools, and all the other niceties were done they would always come back to congress and say "You want a runway too? We'll need more money."

Don't know if that's true, but I always found it funny.

The Marines always tried to give back some of the yearly allotment, don't know if that's still the game plan but it was when I was in.

I went to Beaufort for my F-4 training, they had filmed a movie there a couple years prior and I was in the squadron who did the flying for the film during my days when I had no school. The movie was The Great Santini with Robert Duvall. You have probably seen it.

Duvall does a pretty good job summing up the Marine Phantom pilot of the 70s and 80s. You love em, you hate em, but by god they did fly close air support like nobody else. And none of us ever forgot that our job was to keep the grunts alive and moving.

I guess we were all a little cocky in that regards.

If the Senior Marine didn't come into you dinner faking drunk and spill a hidden can of potato soup pretending to puke, followed closely by his juniors whipping out spoons and grabbing some fresh chow off the floor, I'd say you guys got off light.

[MADem]

75. We always used to say they built the golf course first--runways last!

And the reason it's such a famous line is because that did happen at least once, that the HASC or SASC had to listen to a three or four star bumble through one of their interminable pre-powerpoint cardboard display briefs, with the upshot being "We need money to finish the runway and revetments!"

I actually saw that film when I was TAD to CA, before it was released--it was an invitation thing, with a little party to go along with it. I think the working title was "The Ace," and they may have been looking for glaring errors in protocol that they might have overlooked. They had a pretty good "Hollywood Liaison" officer on that pic, though, I think--I didn't see anything that leapt out at me. A lot of it got left on the cutting room floor--I imagine, if they did a good job of rereleasing it on DVD, that they'd put that stuff under the "deleted scenes"--the first cut was pretty long, we had an intermission, IIRC!

No one did the "soup trick" at the "Dead Bug" event--like I said, they were in-n-out in about three minutes. That's part of why it was funny--it was almost Benny Hill-ish. There was a great deal of singing, if I remember, as well. It was a well-orchestrated bit of business, and was just long enough--which is what saved them at the end of the day.

[razors edge]

79. That's right.

I first saw as "The Ace" too, at Millington NAS, I have the DVD that was released later. I'll have to check if it has extras.

I was told that two of the pilots, soon after filming, died in a freak accident, taking off with a 500 pounder dragging down the runway.

I'm sure I would have liked the service better had I finished High School first and gotten the ten extra points to max out my ASVAB, they offered me nuclear if I did, but sometimes you just gotta move on. The suck was the last service taking drop outs and I had been building remote controlled planes for years, when they offered an A school I jumped.

You ever read anything from Joe Bagent?

http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2006/01/revenge_of_the_.html

From: Revenge of the mutt people.

A member of this peasantry, I quit school at age sixteen in the eleventh grade to join the U.S. Navy. I hated school, hated the social class differences in a small town that make life so miserable during adolescence, when one’s community and social status is being nailed down permanently for anyone planning on staying here. As a former young white cracklet I can say with all confidence that when you live with a rusty coal stove in the middle of the living room for heat, your old man smells of gasoline and motor oil no matter how much he bathes and your mom suffers from strange, unpredictable behavior due to untreated depression, you do not much feel like inviting the doctor’s daughter home. Or anyone’s daughter for that matter. Doctor’s son = College, career, golf, nice car and a bimbo. Redneck laborer’s son = Well, if you stay out of trouble, there’s always room for one more broad shouldered chinless pinhead stamping out bright yellow plastic mop buckets on the injection molds at Rubbermaid.

Thus, at sixteen and choosing options, I decided that launching fighter jets from the deck of an aircraft carrier to kill gooks and the notion of pussy and booze on some exotic foreign shore looked damned good. When I think about what happened to my boyhood friends who stayed home and put in 30 years at Rubbermaid, my choice doesn’t sound that bad even today. They all became redneck ultra-conservatives, mostly out of some sort of fear and bitterness that I can never seem to put my finger on. But I knew these people in a younger and more hopeful time. I know they were capable of -- not to mention deserved -- more than they got out of life. Maybe their bitterness stems from that.

Meanwhile, their kids do the same as they did. Go uneducated. Sometimes I walk the street on which I grew up. And when I look around I see the same kinds of kids as ever. They are all fatter, but they are the same cigarette-smoking, know-nothing white punks that I was, the tough sons and daughters of the unwashed. In my old neighborhood where over one-quarter of adults do not have a high school diploma, there are lots of yellow ribbons in the windows, Marine Corps and Army parent’s icons on the porches and scrubby lawns, evidence enough that you do not need an education to contribute something of value the far-flung perimeter of our expanding empire of blood and commerce. Pure meanness is highly valued in Caesar’s legions. Lots of Americans don't seem to mind having a pack of young American pit bulls savage some flyblown desert nation, or running loose in the White House for that matter, as long as they are our pit bulls protecting Wall Street and the 401-Ks of the upper middle class.

Much more at link.

[MADem]

81. I hadn't heard of that guy--damn, he can write! He's got that word-picture thing down! nt

[Obamanaut]

66. Regarding your Olongopo experience. Whilst I was aboard the

USS Midway, we passed through Subic regularly.

All the Command Master Chiefs in the Airwing had bought diamond pinky rings so we could flash them in the Chief's Mess at mealtimes.

A friend was getting married to a local girl he had known for years, preparatory for his retirement there. He asked me to be best man. The ceremony was in a Catholic church, in Tagalog. I had never been inside a Catholic church, and certainly didn't speak Tagalog, so they positioned a teenager alongside me who wispered at appropriate times to kneel, stand, etc.

When it came time for them to exchange rings, we discovered to our dismay he had not given me one, so I gave him my pinky diamond. She liked it, it fit her ring finger, and I never got it back.

[razors edge]

84. That's cool, I bet she still wears it.

That does remind me of a night I have tried to forget ever since it happened.

I showed up at my friend's house, five or six blocks off the main street bars are on, she and her brother were home and there were three drunk sailors passed out in the living room. She told me they had paid her and a couple friends for sex but were so drunk they couldn't carry through with the deal, so to speak.

They were in the process of stripping them down of their watches and wallets when I got there, and the sailors were not putting up any resistance in their relaxed state. I didn't like the fact that these were American servicemen being ripped off, yet I knew this happened on a daily basis. I fought my way out of two similar situations on the streets in less than two weeks.

What to do?

Her brother ran a small shop making back packs and sports bags, so I offered to get him some materials in exchange for getting the guys safely back to the base. He agreed and we loaded them up in a jeepme and sent them on their way, personal objects intact, but they may not have been on the same guy they arrived on. I have always wondered how that worked out when they sobered up.

The next day I talked to a friend in the flight equipment shop and he gave me 100 feet of 3" wide nylon webbing. I wrapped it around my waist and chest and walked out the gate. I did make the mistake of wrapping it around my waist and chest in an air conditioned environ, by the time I got off base (they searched they guy before and the second after me, whew)the heat was causing my torso to swell and want more airflow, but that webbing was not about to let that happen.

I hit the first bar to the right, about thirty feet outside the gate, and went into the restroom where i stripped that stuff off as fast as I could. Of course the bathroom attendant was looking at me like, hey what's going on here. I slipped him $5 after rolling up the webbing and made the delivery. End of story. Not quite.

Couple nights later I show up at my friend's house and her brother has a present for me. 2 Kilos of a frequently inhaled combustible and highly prohibited item.

Apparently I had provided him more webbing than was needed to secure the safe return of said drunken sailors.

What to do?

Not knowing the statute of limitations of the UCMJ all I can say is we had a good time and somehow found money to do things we would not have ordinarily been able to do.








:evilgrin: :smoke:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. Not to mention the School of the Americas (SOA) where our torturers taught their torturers.

[MADem]

67. Do you mean the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation

at Fort Benning?

You know how they renamed Blackwater? They renamed SOA many years ago, too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. The very same. A shining example of our military ethos.

Just like that Captain in boot camp telling us that we should be happy to kill Cubans because Fidel had a "dirty beard".

[L0oniX]

64. DING DING DING ..........EXACTLY !

[XOKCowboy]

20. How many other countries have military bases in the US?

How would we feel if China wanted a military presence in the US to protect their interests? Why don't Germany, Japan, India, China post troops around the world like we do? They have just as much to lose in a global conflict.

I also don't like having the responsibility for policing the world.

[JohnnyBoots]

24. They are closing a lot of bases in Japan and relocating them to Guam. nt

[mmonk]

27. And I'm sure much of the world wouldn't mind if we were walled off

for awhile. They've got to be beyond tired.

[anonymous171]

30. I wouldn't mind if we were walled off.

But since we consume a ton of the world's useless shit, the world economy would probably tank, which is fine by me.

[razors edge]

37. I might even go a little further.

Since a lot of these bases are beyond complete restoration and there is no need for the Federal Government to perform environmental impact studies that have stopped the construction of new refineries around the country, clean up the stuff that is hazardous to workers on a normal work days exposure and build tank farms and cracking towers.

Declare a war on energy dependence and a national defense priority then task the military to secure that goal.

The DOD is sitting on some of the most prime locations with access to power, rail, pipeline etc.

[tabasco]

42. It's time to end the empire.

Before the empire destroys our country.

[eridani]

44. Since when does giving up being an imperial bully equate to "isolation"?

There are plenty of constructive ways to engage the rest of the world.

[MadHound]

65. The thing that I've found ironical is that many of those who don't want us to "wall ourselves off"

Are also those who are most in favor of a fence on both the Mexican and Canadian border. Weird.

[MADem]

68. Well, it's actually the GOP that likes both ideas.

They love that border fence, and now that they're no longer in charge, they want to fill the moat with sharks and pull up the drawbridge. Get all them furriners outta here, doncha know.

There are some people here who want to disengage from the world, too, but their thought process is a bit more scattered and diffuse as to the reasons.

[krispos42]

78. We have carrier task forces for a reason.

So that we can have dozens of advanced fighter jets and hundreds of long-range missiles anywhere there's salt water.

And we didn't spend all that money on amphibious assault ships 'cuz they look pretty. It so we can land a battalion of Marines, backed by naval fire and air support, anywhere they need to be, by assault landing craft or helicopter.

The 82nd Airborne keeps one brigade on constant alert; it can be dropped by the Air Force anywhere in the world in 24 hours. The rest of the division can be there a couple of days later.

Those B-52s, B-1Bs, and B-2s can be there with them, clearing the way with JDAMS and Tomahawks.



All this stuff is so that if we need to have the military someplace, we can get them there regardless of distance or the opinions of other nations.


And the State Department is there so keep us from needing the military in the first place!

[baldguy]

82. The people who say that think the only way to deal with the world is from behind a gun.

[and-justice-for-all]

83. We need to stop policing the world and deal with our own issues..nt