[There is] a brutalizing aspect of being constantly in submission to your husband or to your father.

[Triana]

RH Reality Check Interviews: Kathryn Joyce, Author of Quiverfull

...

"It is important to note that the term "patriarchy movement" is the self-described term of the movement; this is not terminology I'm putting on them. They are proudly reclaiming the title, saying..."patriarchy is a good model for family structure so we shouldn't be ashamed of that." Like other fundamentalist movements it's not necessarily something that's old and traditional but more a reaction against modern developments. They focus explicitly on opposition to feminist standards and feminist beliefs. They deliberately tweak feminist truisms or feminist titles of books, like Our Bodies, Ourselves, and say, "Our bodies, not ourselves"-- our bodies belong to God. A woman's calling in life is not to decide for herself; her highest calling is to be a submissive wife and mother. So in essence it's an anti-feminist movement.


...

RH Reality Check: What concerns you most about this movement?

KJ: "One is that Nancy Kimble and Vision Forum founder Doug Phillips will be proved right, in that by having 8 children and having their children have 8 children they will in two generations take over the country. But far more concerning to me is that on the way the way to that goal they are convincing a lot of women to lead lives that are really harsh. When women leave this movement they describe it as near slavery levels of labor that they're expected to do, standards that they can never attain as the perfect mother and wife because they're spending too much time on the children. a brutalizing aspect of being constantly in submission to your husband or to your father. So I think what happens to women living under this lifestyle is a lot more disturbing than any of their demographic dreams."

MORE...


http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/05/01/rh-reality-check-interviews-kathryn-joyce-author-quiverfull

[musette_sf]

1. K&R

[billyoc]

2. Wow. They're trying to out-creepy the "promise keepers".

:puke:

[KansDem]

17. Little story about the PKs

I dated a woman once in the early 1980s. She was somewhat of a moderate GOPer, but I fell in love with her anyway. She was pro-choice, smoked cannabis, and very progressive on many issues. We were considering marriage when she suddenly broke it off.

We kept in contact for awhile after that and I saw her go through a few boyfriends. She finally met a guy who had been married twice before. He and she got engaged and the last time I spoke with her (early 1990s), she mentioned he was a "Promise Keeper." I knew very little about the PKs, but knew they were somewhat conservative and was a bit surprised this didn't seem to bother her. I asked something like, "Aren't they a conservative male Christian group?" And she replied that she was comfortable with that. :shrug:

I don't know--I never imagined she could relate to conservative male Christianity...

[roguevalley]

28. feminine antidote to PK: A baseball bat to the face.

[Scout]

3. sick fuckers K&R n/t

[jobycom]

4. So if they have 8 children, and their children have 8 children

at least some of them are going to be pissed off at the slave-like conditions under which they were raised, so I'm not too worried about them taking over the world. Where I grew up, the wildest kids in high school were often the preachers' kids.

[Echo In Light]

5. Oddly curious that they've actually conceptualized 'taking over the country' this way

[Iris]

16. dontcha know? All siblings in a family are EXACTLY alike! They ALL take the same paths, have the

same values, and not a one waivers from the family of origin.

Yep. Just like that in my family! :sarcasm:

[Echo In Light]

21. I know. It's bizarre that many would come to the opposite conclusion...

...and honestly believe that they'll miraculously succeed in cultivating their legions. Hello, Stepford Country!

[Marr]

14. Yeah- I wonder about that.

Just how persistent is that zealotry? If they have eight children, how many can be expected to cling to the same ideology their parents had?

I really have no idea, but they seem to be under the assumption that they'll maintain near 100% retention. I doubt it. They may be breeding themselves *out* of existence, or just accomplishing nothing.

[get the red out]

18. They will need a compound to keep the members enclosed in,

and they will need the assistance of local law enforcement in order to bring back any who escape and some branches in Canada to ship troublesome members to, like FLDS. And it will help if girls start reproducing before they are old enough to think independently, around 13 or 14 and have a baby every year. By the time a woman gets any ideas of leaving she will have 5 or 6 little mouths to feed and nowhere to take them. Then the cycle can continue.

[get the red out]

19. Delete

[pnwmom]

6. Those 8 children aren't going to have 8 children each. Nope. No way.

Maybe 8 altogether (which is still 8 too many).

[get the red out]

8. Gay children?

What gets done to any gay children? If you reproduce enough some are bound to be gay! Women's rights aren't much of a concern to a lot of people anymore, too old fashioned I guess; but thankfully gay rights are still a concern.

What do they do to their gay children?

[pnwmom]

11. Oh, they'll have their 8 children the old fashioned, "Christian" way --

by marrying straight people.

[get the red out]

7. We need laws against cults

They have them in Europe. I do not support religious freedom over human rights. We need to grow up and give all people the opportunity to be full citizens.

Screw cults, castrate patriarchy.

[Echo In Light]

9. Personally I like some cults...especially if they scare the shit outta the right-wingers

[get the red out]

20. I care more for human rights

then even pissing off the right wing. But I do enjoy pissing off the right wing very much! And God knows they care nothing for human rights either.

These patriarchal cults seek to separate people, especially women, from any knowledge of their rights as citizens. Just wretched. I hope they fail and wish something could be done. But our laws seem to support anyone calling themselves a religious leader over the wellbeing of those they say they lead.

[Warren DeMontague]

25. Our laws support the right of everyone to believe and live as they choose- even fundy nuts.

That's the First Amendment.

Assuming the women involved in this "movement" are adults, they can make their own decisions, even if those decisions involve abdicating their own decision-making responsibility. And if they're not abusing or neglecting their kids, they can raise their families as they choose.

Personally, I don't want the government telling people what they can or can't think or consenting adults how they can or can't live. Not as a baseline philosophical point, but also particularly not since, many times, the religious nuthoppers seem closer to being a majority than a minority.

[get the red out]

26. I disagree

I most certainly want this institutionalized abuse of women stopped. I don't really care that others disagree. I want laws to stop them from brainwashing women to be nothing but wombs for God, I was regulations to stop these cults from endangering women and children. I would vote for laws to stop these people and support candidates that supported such laws. If politicians existed who were genuinely opposed to cults I would campaign for them with all my energy. We have regulation in other areas of life, adults can't do a lot of things they might want to do because of sensible regulation. Regulation maintains freedom, it doesn't end it. I would hate to see people choose to work in a nuclear plant with no regulations, or for people to choose to live in that area. Snake handling has been outlawed in many states, our freedoms haven't gone to hell over that.

Europe is fairly careful about cults, they don't seem to be fairing so badly. I envy them, they think much better than we do in most cases.

[Warren DeMontague]

37. I actually doubt "Europe" is as interested in mind control as you think they are.

By assuming adult women aren't capable of making their own decisions about their own lives, you're infantalizing women just as badly as these cults you describe.

However, it's a moot argument, because the First Amendment isn't going anywhere. Sorry. You can "want" a lot of things, but if your "wants" involve censoring what consenting adults can read or say or think or believe, you are going to run smack dab headfirst into the First Amendment. Every time. In this country, at least.


ps. For extra credit, define "cult"-- in SPECIFIC terms, and explain how a "cult" (again, in specific terms) differs from a "religion".

[get the red out]

42. I there is ever the opportunity

for this kind of cult to go the way of snake handling, I will work very hard toward that goal. Europe is far more mature than we are socially. And you can Google cult information and get your own extra credit, it is out there for anyone to find, but of course you don't really want information. There are many things that need to be changed in this country, I would work toward regulating religious abuses of human rights even if it meant putting limits on the first amendment, gladly. I know that is unlikely and probably impossible, but it doesn't mean I will crawl off and shut up to make you happy.

Europe is not into mind control at all, they just have far more wisdom than we do, probably than our country ever hopes to have.

People can want a lot of things, but want has to come before action or nothing is ever improved. Of course some prefer to simply try to belittle and intimidate others that disagree with them, too bad for those people. They complain about people wanting "mind control" then try to intimidate when people disagree with them, which is a common, childish hobby on DU.

And people whose minds have been taken by cults are already like helpless infants, so your point is moot. It is the same as someone who is mentally disabled, being abused and in need of help.

[Warren DeMontague]

48. You are arbitrarily deciding that someone's belief system renders them incapable of making their own

decisions, and as such, you wish to apply personal standards as to what people may be "permitted" to believe in, or not.

If you don't see the danger in that, I can't help you.

I do want information: I want specific information on how YOU are going to ascertain which religions, belief systems, etc. are "cults" and which are not.

I also want to know what specific "religious abuses of human rights" you see in the situation in the OP. Remember, we're not talking about something that offends your personal sensibilities of how things ought to be, we're talking about "abuses of human rights". Where, and what, are they? The woman having a gaggle of kids?

...Tell me you don't see any problem with the government controlling peoples' reproductive systems!

See, I understand that freedom is only as good as the right of people I completely fucking disagree with on everything to think what they want. This is why I respect the right of people to believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, and that Jesus rode around on a dinosaur-- even though I think they're morons. This is why I- a relative of Holocaust victims- understand why the Nazis were allowed to march in Skokie. And why I support the ACLU.

I also find it fascinating that you're such an expert on what are "common, childish hobbies" on DU... according to your profile, you've been here less than a year.

Odd, though... This debate on the "dangerous" First Amendment is giving me deja vu. :shrug:

[The2ndWheel]

10. "but more a reaction against modern developments"

Evolution works is mysterious ways.

[Echo In Light]

13. Bill Hicks bit: "Funny how some in the world cry out REVOLUTION while others cry out EVOLUTION!"

[XemaSab]

12. K&R

If you want to read some real horror stories, read this blog:

http://2spb.blogspot.com/

(One of the women has posted on DU, so thankfully they're out of the lifestyle.)

[havocmom]

15. .

Will read later, when I can have a drink too.

[Triana]

22. Oh. I understand. Don't blame you! n/t

[havocmom]

36. No you don't. Not husband. Not father. WHOLE population where I live

And I got 'good ol boyed' to the point my blood pressure almost landed me in serious trouble yesterday. Reached end of patience with the fucking clowns around me.

[Triana]

41. Ugh....

...I'm sorry.

Dunno what else to say. :(

[Orsino]

23. The conservative sense of entitlement.

Their attempts at justification really are this banal.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. They'll breed a whole ton of dumb, submissive people- who will work FOR creative freethinking types.

Just a thought.

[cherish44]

27. What about infertile women? Are they even people?

If birthing babies is the only thing females are on this earth for, should those of us who can't have kids due to age, disease or "defects" just kill ourselves now?

[Iris]

30. yes. I saw in one post, that's called being an "unproductive eater"

and we need to die now.

[Triana]

31. apparently so.

:mad:

[get the red out]

43. I saw a freeper say just that

I used to troll there, no more. He literally said that breast cancer was God's punishment for women that don't reproduce. That was when "studies" were saying there was some tiny bit larger incidence of breast cancer in women that did not give birth in their 20s (I can't recall exactly). I have one dear friend who has battled breast cancer and she is a mother of three, the first two born at a young age.

[windoe]

29. I never forgot 'True Believers' by Eric Hoffer,

describing the social conditions that allow these types of people to thrive. A sense of belonging, identity and sense of safety that groups provide, especially if coupled with ideology that makes insiders feel 'special' are some examples of attraction that true believers join any group.
Our society is just ripe now for these groups to thrive, low economic conditions, low education, a patriarchic power structure, a sense of danger and fear supported by MSM, and military industrial complex all combine to create a world that encourages extreme behavior.
The subjugation of women goes hand in hand with lower educational standards, which results in an abnormally high birth rate. The percentage of truly ignorant and misinformed people in this country is truly disturbing, and to our collective mental health.
America has provided space for Quakers to live in their old world communities, but the difference was that these people were not socially aggressive. These cults are a danger to our Republic, their values are not American, and their dominionist views are not good for the planet, international relations, nor for our economy. As a country we need to marginalize these behaviors and ban cults, or our country will truly be left behind in the 21st century!!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. Andrea Yates was part of the Quiverfull movement.

She got propaganda from a preacher named Woroniecki.

http://www.womensspace.org/phpBB2/2007/01/15/the-quiverfull-movement-hate-speech-and-discrimination-against-women-as-women/


QUOTE:
In the years before Andrea Yates killed her children, she had also been charged with caring for her elderly and ailing father who died in the year before the killings. In this context, then, of back- and spirit-breaking daily caregiving while homeschooling her five young children, with virtually no community of women to support her, she had repeatedly received letters from the Woronieckis, her spiritual leaders, berating her for her spiritual disobedience and failings. She had twice attempted to kill herself.

Shortly before she killed her children, she had received a tract entitled “Perilous Times.” It included the graphic at the top of this post with the associated poem beneath it, “Modern Mother Worldly.” The tract reads in part:

A woman is created to be a “helper”. This does not mean a wife. It means a servant, single or married. if a girl does not know how to be a servant then she is learning how to be a ruler. It’s called witchcraft. My daughters share and teach the gospel. They do not preach. They are completely content to be servants. NO witchy contention to compete with their brothers… The eternity of my children is my accountability while they are children and I would be sending them to hell if I raised them to think according to the standards of this world. …If you REALLY want “the best for your children” then first YOU must get right with God. …Yes it is far easier to just let the systems of the world do your job - EVERYBODY DOES IT - but you are the one who will reap the consequences. …I can not stress how serious this whole thing is. By the time a child is fourteen or fifteen, it’s too late. By this time, the thinking of the world that YOU have taught them, takes over. You feed them with the world’s ways and you reap exactly what you sowed. …God is going to hold you accountable. …The most severe statement Jesus makes in the whole Bible is in regards to how a child is treated (Read Matt. 18:6)! If Jesus makes such an extreme issue out of this how weighty it will surely be on the Day of Judgement! (Emphases the author’s.)

Shortly after receiving this tract, Andrea Yates killed her children. She told a jail psychiatrist, “It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren’t righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell.” One of her requests was that her head be shaved because she believed that on the flesh of her scalp, she must have born the “mark of the beast,” condemning her to eternity in hell for her failures as a wife, a mother, and a person.

The language of these materials which the Yateses believed were “scriptural” were more than just words, they were and are powerfully destructive and, I believe, they rise to the level of hate speech which ought to be legally prohibited, as other kinds of hate speech are legally prohibited. To declare, as Woronieki does, that women are born “with the nature of a witch,” “witches” being understood to be evil and wicked in all the ways he describes, is hate speech, just as other kinds of hate speech are hate speech and ought to be treated as hate speech under the law, as discriminatory and sexist in the same way slurs against other marginalized groups, ethnicities and religious communities are treated. For the purposes of this post, these words must be understood to have had the power to drive Andrea Yates over the edge, particularly given her isolation, the burdens of her life, and her struggles with mental illness. ENDQUOTE


:wtf: Unbelieveably tragic.

[Triana]

33. she was a slave - literally worked to death.

How can this NOT be considered immoral?

"Quiverfull" = treat women like breed sows and beasts of burden - breed and work 'em to death.

[EFerrari]

38. I've thought about this post since yesterday.

Living this way destroys a person's sense of self. It is literally brutalizing because it destroys your personality. That was probably lethal for Andrea's kids because she might not have deteriorated so terribly in a reasonably supportive setting and those children would still be alive. :grr:

[Triana]

39. Yes it does that. Abusive, exploitive relationships destroy a person's soul and spirit....

(ie: DV type relationships and verbal/emotional abuse) but this patriarchal crap is particularly brutal - because in addition to that, it is essentially SLAVERY.

[get the red out]

44. Her husband and their church caused the death of her kids

They took a nurse, an accomplished woman, then locked her up with their insane "teachings", kept her pregnant despite her depression and her doctor begging them not to have more kids, and made her home school, giving her no outside interaction.

When people are treated this way it is abuse. Then I saw that Yates husband got married again, the media made a big deal out of it. I thought "great, he owns another slave woman". That man was not a victim, he was a victimizer.

[Triana]

46. DEFINITELY abuse.

Why that SOB isn't locked up somewhere and castrated is beyond me.

[get the red out]

47. I totally agree

I got sick of seeing him on Larry King with everyone feeling so sorry for him. To me that would be like feeling sorry for Scott Peterson sitting in prison out in California right now because his wife and baby are dead (since he killed them).

[No Longer Quivering]

34. No Longer Quivering ‹(ô¿ô)›

Although the QF/P lifestyle was actually a disaster for our family and I knew it ~ I nevertheless had a lot of confidence in God and in the whole biblical family set-up. I rationalized to myself that just because it's not working FOR US doesn't mean the system itself is flawed. I had a VISION of what a godly family should look like ~ and although our family didn't exactly reflect that vision, I told myself, we're working on it. So ~ in my articles, my motivation was often to uphold the lifestyle in general ~ not necessarily our family's practice of it in particular. Often as I was writing, I had a picture of Doug Phillips and his family in mind ~ or the Campbells ~ since I believed it was working for them. (This was before my daughter, Angel actually went to live at the "Campbell compound" as they call the land where Nancy and several of her daughters and their families all live near each other.)

Not long ago, I watched the new (2004) version of the movie, The Stepford Wives. Towards the end of the movie, it is revealed that the lead guy, Mike is actually a robot and it is his WIFE, Claire who is behind the whole scheme of turning women into microchip-controlled cyborgs.

Here's part of the dialog which follows this stunning revelation:

What are you ~ a person? or a machine?

Claire: I'm a LADY!

A real lady?

Claire: Every inch.

Wait ~ a real, real lady? Are you a human being?

Claire: YES! I may very well be the only decent human being left.

In Stepford?

Claire: In the WORLD!

All of this ... the wives ... Stepford ~ this was all your idea?

Claire: Yes ... all I wanted was a better world. A world where men were men and women were cherished and LOVED.

She's nuts!

Claire (with a dreamy look on her face): A world of romance and beauty ... of tuxedos and chiffon ... a PERFECT world.

But you were married to a robot.

Claire: The perfect man. And all I wanted was to make you (she points to all the women whom she had turned into subservient "Stepford Wives") ~ all of you ~ into perfect women ...


Pretty creepy, huh? At least, that's what I was thinking. After all, isn't that exactly what the QF/patriarchy "Vision" is all about? A perfect world ~ the perfect family ~ perfect wives? That is exactly what I wanted for my family ~ and maybe I couldn't have articulated that desire for perfection "Q.D." ~ but it was there and it was driving me ... drove my daughter to the psych ward in despair, and the rest of us (including my ex-husband) didn't fare much better.

I've mentioned several times that it's often the women who are seeking out these books and other material published by Vision Forum, Grace and Truth Books, Inheritance Publications, etc. ~ materials which teach and promote the QF/patriarchal lifestyle. I can only speak for myself ~ but I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is this "Vision" which inspires many women to lead (sometimes even PUSH) their husbands and children to become a quivering family.

Yes ~ the Stepford community was ideal ~ and they were all pretty happy. But at what cost and who paid the price?

http://2spb.blogspot.com/

[Danger Mouse]

35. Plans like this are doomed to failure...

because these pigs will alienate their kids, and pollution like this eventually will breed itself out. They're just dinosaurs gasping their last breath.

[Triana]

40. I hope you're RIGHT Danger Mouse.

You have no IDEA how much I hope you're right.

[get the red out]

45. I try to believe what you said

I just have a rage at such abuses. I get angry at people claiming these poor brain washed women still have free will. And I get really mad when religion trumps human rights.