*DU Quiz* -can you find the problem with this Fox News article?

[underpants]

Parts of Obama's Green Energy Plan Fuel Discontent Among Environmentalists
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/05/environmentalists-wage-fight-obamas-energy-plan/

A key part of President Obama's energy plan -- replacing fossil fuels with green alternatives -- is facing increasing opposition from an unlikely source: environmentalists.

Some environmentalists, who have successfully fought a wind farm on the border of Oregon and Washington, are trying to block a massive solar plant in the Mojave desert. And now an Oregon county is considering a ban on wind power in the foothills of the blue mountains.

"We all want to be as green as we can be. But at what cost?" Richard Jolly of the Blue Mountain Alliance. "To take everything from us? This valley could be surrounded by them."

Jolly says 400-foot wind turbines are a bird-killing eyesore. The developer argues the danger to birds is exaggerated but admits every big energy project has its downside.

"If we hold out for the perfect environmental silver bullet, if you will, it will always be 15 years down the road," he said. "We have to make incremental progress."

For decades, environmental groups have talked about "big oil," painting the petroleum industry as greedy and destructive. Now similar language is being applied to renewables. Instead of eco-friendly green power, increasingly it's "big wind" and "big solar."

Large environmental groups, such as the Natural Resources Defense Council, bristle at the idea of dissension in the ranks.

"We are working very aggressively to make a planning process happen with utilities, with industry, with local groups all at the table," said Rick Duke, director of the Natural Resources Defense Council's Center for Market Innovation.

[muntrv]

1. Fox News is the problem.

[Jim Sagle]

2. It sux.

;)

[underpants]

3. ¿ ?

What is the "Blue Mountain Alliance"?

a google search turned up

http://www.bmja.org/


There is also the Blue Mountain Ostrich Alliance

but

I can't find a "Blue Mountain Alliance' web presence at all and the only Richard Jolly's I can find are

Dr. Richard Jolly
Senior Research Fellow and Co-director of the UN Intellectual History Project
http://www.unhistory.org/iac_res/jolly.htm

AND

an English soccer reporter
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/archive?columnist=14&root=england&&cc=5901


I COULD BE WRONG :shrug:

[Muttocracy]

10. I'm trying to figure out who they are as well

:shrug:

[patrice]

4. Isn't 400' too tall? I'm not good at estimating size, but that seems excessive for

what I've seen of these wind turbines.

[underpants]

7. Isn't it odd that a supposed environmentalist would first mention an anti-wind turbine meme?

"eyesore"??

That is one of the original anti-environmentalist anti-wind power memes they put out there. Oh and it worked-any discussion of wind power gets the "eyesore" comment within 3 minutes.

[patrice]

32. I'm getting too used to "New Speak"; it's the status quo, so I didn't pick up on that.

[tritsofme]

14. I saw one of these blades being delivered once.

The thing was huge, it must have been half as long as a football field.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they were 400 feet tall.

[Muttocracy]

16. I'd believe the ones I've seen in PA and NY are that tall. nt

[Uben]

5. That's easy........

...Fox is not a news channel, it's a propaganda channel.

What do I win?

[Lerkfish]

6. not sure: is it because a google on Blue Mountain Alliance comes up with a "consulting firm"

whose clients are the very people that pollute the environment and make it easier for them to appear to comply with regulations?

otherwise, I've not followed your link, but I"ve reread the portion you've posted and don't see what you're getting at.

[underpants]

8. Oooh I didn't find that

see post #3

I only found a Jeep group

Good job

[Lerkfish]

9. well, this is the link I"ve found

http://www.bluemountainusa.com/about.htm

but I could have the wrong group.

[Muttocracy]

15. found a different link below that might be them? nt

[underpants]

18. From their home page--good find by the way

they are very concerned with regulation- it seems to me :shrug:
**********

In 1997, Blue Mountain Environmental Management Corporation (BMEMC) was founded to provide National, as well as international businesses with the tools and expertise necessary to save time, limit Liabilities and comply with today's ever-changing and stringent regulatory requirements.

Our current staff of engineers, professionals and technicians is fully committed to providing unsurpassed, high quality services through our extensive knowledge of environmental regulations and sound, �state-of-the-art� engineering practices. The diverse backgrounds, experience, and expertise we maintain enables BMEMC to provide a wide array of services to our clients while assuring a controlled continuity with respects to the needs of our clients, the evaluation of scientific methods and the development of response plans to meet and/or exceed compliance and regulatory directives.

For many years, persons in corporate and managerial positions have been overwhelmed by the confusing verbiage and the highly perplexing reporting requirements found within Federal, State and Local regulations.

The position of the industry today is such that corporations are welcoming smaller, more technically apt, diverse and cost-effective companies, like BMEMC, that are capable of protecting a persons or companies liabilities by virtue of producing quick and responsible results while reducing project costs in the performance of tasks at hand.

A multidisciplinary staff of engineers, scientists, industrial hygienists, occupational safety and health professionals and technical support representatives provide a comprehensive array of air quality, industrial hygiene, occupational safety and health and environmental services.

By integrating, and/or networking with, other top-notch firms in the country, BMEMC is available to manage and provide a broad spectrum of environmental services that encompass, but are not limited to land, waterways, hazardous waste, emergency response and other environmentally related services.

[Lerkfish]

37. true: why would an enviromental group consider regulations too "stringent"?

makes one go "hmmmmm".

[underpants]

11. LINK

http://bmtnconsulting.com/Projects.html



Summary of Experience:

Twenty-eight years of engineering experience in the power, petrochemical, petroleum and refinery industries. His experience includes the role as a Piping Project PMC Engineer in the engineering and procurement for LSTK NGL Extraction Plant, and an Enhanced Secondary Recovery project on an offshore platform. His experience also includes piping engineering, design and layout of various types of process including F.C.C.U. (U.O.P. process), coker drum, refinery crude units, paraxylene, alkylation, diesel hydrotreater, diesel stabilizer, isomerization, high and low density polyethylene, sour water stripper units, natural gas processing units and NGL Gas Plants; engineering, piping and design of various types of power units including simple cycle, combined cycle, and co-generation. Field engineering includes experience related to upstream drilling and exploration including down-hole hydraulic/testing operations in the petroleum industry.

[Muttocracy]

17. found a link below that might be them? nt

[Laelth]

12. Um, no. I see nothing wrong with that excerpt.

I am an environmentalist and a die-hard leftist, and I agree. Wind power blows, and it does nothing to reduce CO2 emissions because a gas-fired power plant must always be running in spinning reserve to make up for the lost wind power in the event that the wind stops blowing. Wind turbines are industrial blight, and most of the people who live near them detest them.

See the following:
http://www.keepersoftheblueridge.com/faqs.html
http://www.nortexwind.org/index.htm
http://www.stopillwind.org/index.php
http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/
http://www.savewesternny.org/
http://www.wind-watch.org/
http://www.epaw.org/
http://www.windturbinesyndrome.com/?p=166
http://www.rivercitymalone.com/?p=654
http://spectator.org/archives/2009/04/21/the-unbearable-lightness-of-wi
http://notesfromotherside.blogspot.com/2009/04/more-on-renewable-energy.html
http://www.pest-03.org/ (Power Engineers Supporting Truth)

Or just watch this series of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNxvkrgoPLo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_utFV2ukOtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOd5tSZF3A4&feature=related

There's more, but you get the idea. :)

The United States is a LIBERAL Country.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Canuckistanian]

21. Do you work for the oil and gas companies?

Because you're always in every wind power thread peddling your crap.

[Laelth]

No. Do you work for Vestas?

That kind of childish banter works both ways, you know.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Canuckistanian]

25. C.mon, let's have this out

I've called you on this two times now and jpak gave you several links showing that you're WRONG about windpower energy storage.

And you keep throwing up that same wall of links as if you've learned nothing.

What's your REAL beef with windpower?

[Canuckistanian]

29. Hey, look at this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3844450&mesg_id=3844639
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=190865&mesg_id=190872
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3844917&mesg_id=3846307
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=189990&mesg_id=190001
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3844450&mesg_id=3844639
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=189986&mesg_id=190003

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were spamming this board.

[Lerkfish]

35. wow. that's weird.

no, no, I mean REALLLY weird.

[Canuckistanian]

38. Yeah

Spooky isn't it?

[ContinentalOp]

13. Opposition to putting a solar plant in a national park is not the same as opposition to Obama's ...

energy plan. They conveniently neglect to mention that developers want to build solar plants on national park land. That's what environmentalists are opposed to, not the idea of building solar plants in general.

[underpants]

20. Thank you

great point

[imdjh]

27. Where should they be?

Park land sounds like where they ought to go. What am I missing?

[ContinentalOp]

31. WTF, are you joking?

How about in any of the millions of acres of Death Valley or the Mojave Desert that are not federally protected? Or are you one of those people who thinks the desert is just a barren, disposable wasteland?

[imdjh]

33. It was a simple question. Nevermind. I won't bother you again.

[Lerkfish]

36. actually, look around you: there is plenty of unused public land that would not impact

the environment... well, any more than it is already affected. Next time you get in your car, look at what is right next to the highways? Empty land strips that have to be mown regularly at taxpayer expense. What if those miles and miles of berm were lined with solar panels?
and how about bridges, cell towers or other existing structures?

I think you asked a reasonable question and this is my reasonable response.

[imdjh]

39. Well that's what I was wondering.

I have only seen one windfarm, somewhere on I-5 or on the way to it around Dublin or Livermore, and I assumed it was on park land. Driving from Bakersfield to Phoenix to El Paso there was a lot of desertlike stuff, all of which was fenced off and I assumed it belonged to the government, couldn't see why there couldn't be turbines there, except I dont' recall it being particularly windy.

I don't know why the national parks would be universally off limits, there is a great deal of land out there, much of which will never be seen by 99% of Americans and which could theoretically have wind farms that few would even notice.

[Muttocracy]

19. nevermind - see link in reply

[underpants]

22. they left out "Sustainable Transport"???

Hmmm :think:

[Muttocracy]

23. nevermind - I think that one's in Australia or something...nt

[Muttocracy]

24. Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance?

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/index.htm

http://www.subtleenergies.com/ormus/bmnfa/brochure.htm

[Muttocracy]

26. more detailed quotes from Richard Jolly:

Using Google Cache version from East Oregonian:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:NPJLpxDhHsEJ:eastoregonian.com/main.asp%3FFromHome%3D1%26TypeID%3D1%26ArticleID%3D91585%26SectionID%3D13%26SubSectionID%3D48+blue+mountain+richard+jolly&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

4/22/2009 10:29:00 AM

(graphic - Goal 5 proposal - Amendment would limit the construction of structures - including windmills - that conflict with the aesthetics of the Blue Mountains or agriculture in the foothills.)

MILTON-FREEWATER
Man takes stand against windmills
Richard Jolly fights to keep Blues free of wind turbines

By SAMANTHA BATES
The East Oregonian

One man living in the Milton-Freewater area is taking his own stand against windmills encroaching into the Blue Mountains.

Richard Jolly has spoken with community groups, attended planning commission meetings and taken the time to research the county's administrative rules and it's comprehensive plan.

Recently he made his opposition to windmills in the Blues official by filing for a goal five amendment to the county's comprehensive plan - which is one way citizens can cite things like viewshed as a reason to disallow structures like windmills.

Jolly said his main goal isn't just to keep windmills out, it's to ensure there is a plan with all this development.

"Instead of just letting the industry decide where to put them," Jolly said, "I think there's areas we shouldn't have them, where there shouldn't be development. We want to keep some of our open spaces and scenic views and wild areas."

Jolly worked with Ryan Stoner, a Tri-Cities area resident who's taken part in many of the meetings with Jolly, trying to inform people about windmills, the industry, and areas in Washington - like Wallula gap - where windmills were constructed in a visually appreciated area. They also worked with Hostetter Knapp LLP, an Enterprise law firm that helped them put the goal five amendment into legal language.

The proposed amendment aims to limit windmill production in an area stretching from Highway 11 on the west, to the national forest boundary in the mountains to the east, the Washington state boundary on the north and the Umatilla Indian Reservation border on the south.

The proposed amendment would limit structures that would conflict with the aesthetics of the mountains or of the agriculture in the foothills.

"The most immediate threat of a conflicting use are wind generation towers, some 400 feet tall and while consuming relatively small amounts of land for their base, consume expansive contiguous acres in their effects on the viewshed resources, wildlife habitats and facility support," the proposed amendment reads. "The present zoning restrictions provide no protections against these conflicts and allow such structures and facilities to be constructed as a conditional use in the EFU and GF zones."

Along with the visual aspects outlined in Jolly's goal five amendment, Umatilla County Planning Director Tamra Mabbott said cultural resources for American Indians or wildlife could also be affected in the Blue Mountains unlike in other areas of the county where windmills already sit.

"We have not yet had a wind farm that impacts such a variety of natural resources," she said. "In our county and in most counties, they're either on open range land, farm land or dryland wheat farm ground."

More wildlife could be affected in the mountains than on the farmland.

Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife Biologist Mark Kirsh, agreed, although theoretically because no official studies have gone into the Blues to study windmills impacts on wildlife.

"The foothills of the Blues are more diverse," he said. "There are more species and rich habitats than the arid lands of the valley floor. It is likely more species of animal and probably a grater volume will interface with wind farms in the foothills of the blues."

Certain species like raptors, birds and bats are known to have trouble with windmills, but it's not known for other species like rocky mountain elk and mule deer, two prominent species that spend time in the Blue Mountains.

"What will they do when they see a wind farm where they previously have not?" Kirsch asked.

In the foothills, Washington ground squirrels are a listed species that could be impacted.

Jolly submitted the proposed amendment to the county. The county planning commission will hear the proposal on a June 25 public hearing. Technically, if the planning commission approved the goal five amendment, they'd be making a change to the county's comprehensive plan, which can have a different process than something like a zoning change.

The planning commission first heard a bit about the divisive issue of windmills last fall, when Mabbott led work sessions with people on both sides. They were unable to reach a consensus, but at the time Mabbott offered up the goal five as a way those not wanting windmills could try to keep them out.

When the planning commission meets in June and with Jolly's amendment, Mabbott said it could again prove to be a divisive issue.

"The planning commission gets to earn its keep on this one," she said.

Mabbott also provided notice to the state department of land conservation and development. The county regulates wind energy generation up to 105 megawatts. Anything more than that, is regulated by the state.

[underpants]

28. So he is a one man operation (like the "Catholic League")

and he is mostly interested (as noted above) in not putting them in certain places not against them in general as the article implies.

he also may just be Not In My BackYard (NIMBY)

great work Mutt :thumbsup:

[Muttocracy]

30. Don't think any of the websites above are his (including ones I posted)

At work recently I heard about a one-person operation calling itself "The National Center For" such-and-such. Your OP is great because it reminds us to ALWAYS look at sources critically.

[Enrique]

34. calling a developer an environmentalist?

I guess Fox was fooled by the name "Blue Mountain Alliance".