If the following were happening under a bush administration, how would you feel?

[leftofthedial]

1. If administration torturers were let off without prosecution by Alberto Gonzales' "Justice" Department...

2. If trillions of dollars were given to banks with no restrictions and no oversight, all while banks give their management (themselves) hundreds of millions of dollars of bonuses...

3. If single-payer universal health care was dismissed as an anti-American scheme (despite poll after poll showing that a majority of the public want exactly that)...

4. If the right to form unions was restricted by anti-worker lobbyists...

Would you defend bush? Would you change the subject and talk about how good george looks in his cowboy hat?

What would you do?

[Occam Bandage]

1. If the Obama administration had called single-payer anti-American, you'd have a point.

The Bush administration did give bailout money to banks. I was in favor of that at the time, and I believe the Bush administration and the Obama administration's aggressive actions to shore up both the financial industry and the economy at large are a big part of the reason why the economy has stopped its freefall.

[leftstreet]

2. DU would be melting down, Skinner would have a stroke,

Grovelbot would be waterboarding himself

[leftofthedial]

3. At what point does pissing oneself

become self-waterboarding?

[leftstreet]

4. ...

:spray:

[Echo In Light]

8. Ha..hey now. Zing

[FiveGoodMen]

5. I would think that the White House was occupied by enemies of America

[Quezacoatl]

6. All of that DID happen under a Bush administration

[lame54]

30. .

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

9. What do you mean "if?" That shit was happening under Bush

I remember money going out the window, no discussion on health care, a rampant Justice Department, and eroding employee rights.

However, I sense that the ship of state is turning. You don't turn that ship on a dime, but you're apparently impatient.

The money had been going to contractors and cronies and disappearing by the billions into black holes in Iraq and Afghanistan, but it's the same deal, basically. Worse, really, before--at least we know who got the money this time around. There is some sort of audit trail.

We're barely over the hundred day mark, and let's beat Obama about the head and shoulders ..... because CONGRESS hasn't moved forward on health care? Last time I checked, Presidents didn't make law. They sign the laws Congress passes.

Further, the Justice Department is investigating the abuses made by the lawyers who crafted the bad guidance. There's more than a few people calling for disbarment of those lawyers involved, and impeachment of any judge ruling with blatant disregard for the law. The report on this issue is still in draft form, and it's not out yet. Why not wait until it's out before you complain, and when you do complain, direct your complaints towards the Justice Department, which acts INDEPENDENTLY from the White House, OK? Obama can't "order" his AG to do anything. All he can do is hire or fire the guy.

Same deal with your EFCA gripe--Obama didn't restrict the right to form unions. Take that up with Congress. Isn't that bill still in committee? Don't gripe at Obama unless he signs the thing.

Why are you so angry at Obama for things he doesn't control? Why are you so anxious to blame him for issues where he's got no authority? I seem to remember people getting bullshit when Cheney and Rove skulked around the Hill putting midnight changes on legislation--now you're mad because Obama's letting the legislative process, with full committee input, take its proper course?

There's lots of room here at DU to talk about these issues, and the "fluff" issues, too, like the Chief Executive eating a hamburger or his wife attending an awards ceremony. It's not like there's only room for "X" number of threads per day, and bandwitdth shortages are crowding out "serious" topics with "fluff" topics, so your complaint is disingenuous.

Start a thread on a topic that interests you, rather than complain that others aren't talking about the subjects you favor. You want discussion? Fire it up. Don't sit passively and gripe because others don't read your mind and create the posts you prefer.

If you don't like "fluff" threads, or you find that you can't help but read them from one end to the other if you click on them, then HIDE THREAD is your friend. USE it if you just can't control your unhealthy urges to read about dresses and food items. Spend the time you save creating original threads on topics you want to talk about.

You'll be happier.

[countingbluecars]

10. Excellent post. n/t

[MADem]

11. Thank you. nt

[leftofthedial]

16. I don't care one way or the other about fluff threads.

I'm not angry with Obama for things he can't control. Hell, I like the guy. I listen to him when he speaks. I admire his rhetoric and many of the things he has done. He has been the most productive President in his first 100 days of any I remember (which goes back to JFK).

I don't care what you or others talk about. I think you misunderstand the OP.

I just note the change in attitude here because of who is in the White House, and the obliviousness to much of what is going on.


When the above stuff went on and bush was "president," we were all righteously angry. Now that Obama is president, most of the same shit is going on, led pretty much by the same people, but many of us are now happy about it.

I'm just asking a question.

[MADem]

20. The way to mitigate "obliviousness" is to engage on subjects of import, not scold people having a

bit of fun.

The "attitude" here is simply a bit of enthusiasm and joy, because we don't have that cinder block on our hearts having to deal with the excesses of Bushco, and we don't have to live with nonsensical "terra, terra, terra" pronouncements every few days.

You're free to start issue-based threads and beat them to death--I'm sure you'll find takers who are interested in a robust back-n-forth if you frame the discussion in a manner other than "Here's why Obama sucks--he's not doing (blah blah blah) fast enough." That's the best way to engage on the issues that matter to you--start a thread on the topic you want to discuss--not provide a laundry list of what you think he hasn't done.

Like I said, people can walk and chew gum at the same time. I can say "Now that's a cute dog" in one thread, and "Will Specter be helpful to the administration in pushing Supreme Court nominees through to the Senate floor?" in another thread.

I happen to like the fact that Obama isn't interfering with an independent Judiciary. He doesn't try to tell the courts what to do. I like the fact that he doesn't sneak around trying to bully the legislative branch, so laws can be crafted without sending Cheney over at midnight to pen shit in without anyone noticing. I like the fact that he knows his place--that he is the Chief Executive and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, not a closet Senator or Representative, and not judge-bullyer or a Secret Boss over at DOJ. I like the fact that he lets the co-equal branches do their thing, and doesn't crawl up their asses and hector and threaten them, like Bush did.

I think you expect too much, too soon. At this point in time in the Bush administration, I'm betting George still had to stop and think before he remembered where the Oval Office bathroom was. Rome wasn't built in a day. As it is, Obama's accomplished a lot in a few short months. I think his trajectory is good, overall.

[Q3JR4]

12. I expect I'd do the same thing

I'm doing now.

Q3JR4.

[AtomicKitten]

13. It did happen under the Bush Admin and the jury is still out on the Obama Admin. n/t

[Dragonfli]

14. Don't you remember? We told the idiots who cared about such things they wanted ponies

And reminded them that all we had to do was shut the fuck up and have faith in politicians.

That is what it was like around here wasn't it?

Isn't this just business as usual with the trust and the waiting?

Sheesh I would have thought you would have remembered our shared disdain for dissent.
:silly:

[leftofthedial]

17. bush never promised us justice, so why were we all surprised?

LOL

[SammyWinstonJack]

26. .

:thumbsup:

[NightWatcher]

15. oh noes, Obama hasn't fixed everything yet and he's been in office for 110 days +/-

1. wait till the next batch of "torture photos" come out and let the rage build. It was building nicely before SWINE FLU SWINE FLU...

2. He's trying to fix a trully fucked economy. I'll give you that his Head Banker is trying to fix things with bank bailouts. Who said that "when the only tool in your bag is a hammer, all the problems look like nails"

3. Healthcare, we're working on it, give it more than 110 days Change takes time

4. EFCA...ok, that sucks, but all the reps are corporate whores, bought and paid for


Bush fucked us over for 8 years to add to Reagan, Bush1 and Clinton (the best republican Prez we've had. Give Obama a little more time please. I think he prob needs at least 8 years to fix this shit.

But we can and should still hold his feet to the fire and try to help surround him with truly progressive Dems, 2010 is just around the corner.....

[leftofthedial]

18. No leader should EVER have to face all the problems Obama inherited.

I know much of what's wrong will take years or even decades to "fix."

I'm worried about the things that ARE done and the things that ARE said. Plans and priorities are becoming quite clear. I'm not complaining that the plans have not all been executed in 110 days; my issue is with the plans themselves.

Holder excusing war crimes is intolerable. It doesn't take longer than 110 days to obey the law and seek justice, which is supposed to be his job. If he can sweep the torture legal memos under the rug in 110 days, he damned well could announce that he will investigate and seek justice in 110 days. Hell, he could do that in five minutes (assuming, incorrectly, that he has the slightest interest in justice).

And if he won't do it, it would take his boss less than five minutes to fire his ass.

The "110 days argument" is a red herring.

[NightWatcher]

19. Holder is an ass. I was against him from the beginning (mainly because of stance on marijuana in DC)

I keep telling myself that he's better than McSame.

Other than that, we must keep up the pressure to remind him where he got most of his support. I think it would also help to surround him with dozens of new Dems in 2010. Kick out the DINOs and replace them with hardcore liberals

[SemiCharmedQuark]

21. When did Holder excuse war crimes?

[leftofthedial]

22. today

no charges over torture memos

Holder won't charge the lawyers who wrote the torture memos--a war crime.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

23. Holder had nothing to do with that report.

This report was done under Mukasey

"The letter notes that Holder and his top deputy will have access to any information they need "to evaluate the final report and make determinations about appropriate next steps."

The results of the investigation were delayed late last year, when then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey and his deputy asked investigators to allow the lawyers a chance to respond to their findings, as is typically done for those who still work for the Justice Department.

Investigators also shared a draft copy with the CIA to review whether the findings contained any classified information. According to the letter, the CIA then requested to comment on the report."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/05/justice-nears-end-interrogation-memo-probe/

[leftofthedial]

29. IT was begun under Mukasey.

Holder is the Attorney General. He is responsible for *everything* the Justice Department does from the instant he is confirmed by the Senate.

If he does nothing to countermand this report, he is as guilty as if he'd written every word personally.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

33. The report hasn't even come out yet. This is a draft.

A draft whose results were obtained under Mukasey and then held onto.

[leftofthedial]

34. nothing in DC has more effect

than a leaked draft.

Why is the project even still underway?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

35. The results were obtained during Mukasey's term. Holder can't undo a report that has already been

completed.

If he agrees with the report, *and doesn't change anything before letting it go as the final draft*
then I can completely understand and agree with what you're saying. But he hasn't.

*edit*

[leftofthedial]

36. If it's at a draft stage, he can stop the project.

He can also call for new investigations, or a new project to draft a new report. Even that raises ethical questions, since the Justice Department was intimately involved in implementing the torture program.

He also can request that Congress appoint a special prosecutor.

He's the boss.

[JDPriestly]

24. I would feel the same way I feel now that Obama is

doing all these reprehensible things.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dorian Gray]

27. Yes

you are right... there would be a lot of bitching about it all...

There is quite a lot of anger about these things under the Obama administration, too!

[dionysus]

28. your poutrage shtick is becoming quite passe...

:rofl:

[leftofthedial]

32. More "passe" with every passing day.

[lame54]

31. I would elect Obama president

[Badgerman]

37. Amazing, or maybe not, that so many missed your point...

I believe you ask how 'they' would feel if, and not how they feel about...

Some of the points are without a doubt not doable in a 100+ days, again not your point as I see it. What if after 4yrs none of these things are accomplished? I wonder how the frenzied set will feel then.

One thing must always be kept foremost here and everywhere, insanity, ignorance, rapid eye twirling in general, is equally present at the extremities of any group. We have our fair share! heheh