"You're acting like a whole bunch of n------" says teacher to class

[Liberal_in_LA]

Teacher Elvira Sacco gets detention for using N-word

BY Elizabeth Lazarowitz
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

Friday, May 1st 2009, 7:10 AM
Elvira Sacco Ponsot who called her students the N-word, a Department of Education investigation says.



A Park Slope middle school teacher used a racial slur while scolding unruly students, a Department of Education investigation has found.

Last December, several students alleged that Elvira Sacco, 55, a teacher at the Secondary School for Journalism on Seventh Ave., lost her cool when seventh- and eighth-graders became disruptive during a movie and launched into a tirade that included the N-word.

"I was like, 'Oh, my God, how dare !'" said Candace George, 37, a city welfare fraud investigator whose child was in Sacco's class. "I thought I was going to lose my mind."

George said she was especially upset by the incident because Sacco is white - and about half the students at the school are black.

[DerekJ]

1. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR. This shit gets me so mad, i can't even comment. GRRRRRRRRRRR.

[elleng]

2. and its BROOKLYN!!!

I'd like to laugh, but I can't.

[pnutbutr]

11. I will

cause it's funny despite being completely unacceptable. :rofl:

[d_b]

3. nice grill

[Liberal_in_LA]

4. Yeah.

[Sebastian Doyle]

5. She must know that batshit crazy PUMA woman, Harriet Whatserface

or Lynn Samuels. Or both. The three of them probably sit around chain smoking and trading racist rants.

[FrenchieCat]

6. She should have taken a time out......

and a deep breath.

She was the adult. She should have known much better.

[ZombieHorde]

8. And then she should have reflected deeply on why she had the urge to use slurs. nt

[etherealtruth]

15. Exactly

"losing it" and telling them they were acting like "A-holes" (while still inappropriate) is significantly different than hurling racial epithets.

It doesn't make me wonder .... I know.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. even if she went on a tirade, using racial slurs or really any bigoted slurs

is just unexcusable

i go on tirades often, and i have yet to say something racist

[Number23]

7. Elvira?

[pokercat999]

9. Playing poker well requires an immense about of

patience, that said, I can't even imagine the patience required of a teacher. This might have been Ms. Ponsot's (unconscious) way of exiting the profession. Totally inexcusable.

[rucky]

10. No matter how much patience you have as a teacher...

there will always be a kid who will outlast you. I found it better to have a really really short fuse and go off on things before they get out of hand, because then you lose your cool & say things you regret.

[Dorian Gray]

14. Yeah....

of course there are asshole kids (especially in high school), but it's very telling that when she lost her patience, she resorted to racial slurs. That's HORRIBLE!

[wolfgangmo]

60. Better yet is to

'stage manage' your outburst. If they are all an act then you get to choose when and how your 'outbursts' happen. They are then planned and in control.

I never went off on kids although they sometimes thought I did. They don't pay enough money to teacher for them to ever get upset.

[pokercat999]

65. In poker that's called "tilt"and it costs you everything. nt

[TWiley]

12. Look at what her vile speech has done to her teeth.

I would have to say that she is a bit odd-looking

[izquierdista]

19. Effects of teaching

She looks like she's 55 going on 85. That's what a classroom full of junior high kids will do to you.

[Dorian Gray]

13. That school

is close to where I live, yet this is the first I've read of it!

Considering how liberal this neighborhood is, I find it ALMOST impossible to believe. (I do believe it happened. I'm just having a moment of "WHAT?????")

Wow. That woman is a total idiot. How could any teacher think that is, in anyway, okay????

Amazing.

[shellgame26]

16. What can you expect

from someone with the name Elvira?

[immoderate]

18. Ahem...

--imm

[Gidney N Cloyd]

20. Thank you for that. nt

:fistbump:

[BlueIris]

17. What an asshole. Why is she still teaching?

Shameful.

[mix]

50. so true, why is she still teaching?

Racial slurs are way over the line. She should be fired and banned from the profession.

[marshall]

21. That word was used all the time in the inner city school where I taught

The girls used the word to refer to their boyfriends (the boys used the "b" word to refer to their girlfriends). The black librarian got mad at my class and used the "n" word to tell them to behave. Black teachers used it all the time. One day one of the boys asked me if I was prejudiced against blacks and before I could answer a girl said "You think he'd be here teaching a bunch of "n-word"s if he were?" (And both the boy and girl were black, as was 92% of the school).

I never used the word myself, but I couldn't imagine trying to curtail others from using it since it was being used daily by everyone there but me.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. there is big difference in the ways ingroups can address each other

and the way outgrous can address ingroups.

[Yupster]

28. It would be tough trying to teach

if you're an "outgroup" then.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. no, i cant see why that would be so tough. its easy enough to scold kids

or insult people without being racist.

[Yupster]

30. I wasn't talking about the n word as such

As a former young teacher, I'm thinking of graduating college, moving to a community to teach, and being told clearly that I am not part of that community and can never be part of the community. It would be very discouraging.

I see having a separate language that the community can speak but I am not allowed to speak as a clear "you are not one of us and are not welcome here" It would have been very discouraging to me. My response would have been "get me out of here."

Actually I lasted 10 years as a teacher and then got burned out.

[dem629]

39. That's what my sister did. Just said, forget it, let someone else do it.

[marshall]

54. I never felt that way, but maybe I would have if I had stayed longer

I never felt a need to use the "n" word. I did actually say the word once in conversation with a 7th grade girl. She was talking about a boy she liked, and I said "Oh, is he your "n" word"? That is how the girls used the word. She and I were talking informally right after the bell rang. She laughed and thought my use of the word was funny, and I knew that she would take it as me trying to be "one of the group" without being offensive. And she is the one who broke in when the boy asked me if I was prejudiced. So there was a lot of special context about my use of the word that made it acceptable in that limited use.

I actually never said the word until I was 19 or 20, and then it was only in talking about the use of the word--not using the word to call at somebody or put somebody down. I still say the word when I am talking about its use (and I only use the phrase 'n word' here because I don't want to be misunderstood). I don't think it's the word itself that causes such great offense, it is rather the intent of the person saying it in conjunction with the power relationship that exists as the context of the communication.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

33. Only if you're teaching them racial slurs.

[dem629]

37. Right. They'll hear it from their classmates.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dem629]

52. Please review

the DU rules:

"Do not "stalk" another member from one discussion thread to another. Do not follow someone into another thread to try to continue a disagreement you had elsewhere."

Buh-bye. :hi:

[BlooInBloo]

40. We white folks know this perfectly well. It's just our White Unity way of defending racists.

Despicable, isn't it?

[goclark]

34. And what did the Board of Education say in your case

or did everyone remain silent?

[dem629]

35. Same here, and then people wondered why such words stay in use.

Oh well.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. are you honestly blaming black people for keeping racist words in use?

seriously?

[dem629]

44. Not that simple.

I'm saying that the use of certain words (either racial or gender biased) by anyone of any race or gender, simply perpetuates the use of the word.

I have a bi-racial niece who is called names by both whites and blacks, alternately, because she's not clearly white or black. These kids are nine. Sad.

I am against the use of any slurs, 100%. When (and why) do you condone the use of them?

[mr1956]

47. I worked at an inner city school also

And while the kids used certain words, the staff never did. Additionally when it was heard, we used it as an opportunity to correct the students and teach them about self-respect. Black teachers did this all the time.

[LibertyLover]

55. Several years ago,

when I was working in a law firm in DC, I was getting an assignment from one of the lawyers I worked with. Her office was right across the hall from the word processors' office. It was early one Monday morning and a couple of people were in there talking. One of the other paralegals was telling what had happened that weekend to her 17 year old stepson (he and a younger companion had been arrested for shoplifting). Dee (not her real name) is Cuban. She is married to a black man with 2 sons from a previous marriage and her first marriage had been to a black man with whom she had a lovely daughter.

Anyway, she was talking with a few of the secretaries and word processors, all of whom were black, and using the n-word in virtually every sentence to describe her stepson, his friend and their mutual friends who had egged them on in the shoplifting escapade (example: "What, they didn't stop to think that a bunch of under-aged "n"s would stand out like sore thumbs in a suburban Bloomingdales?"). The lawyer and I were floored. It was like watching a car accident - you just couldn't look away. One of the word processors finally caught sight of our faces and burst into laughter. She then alerted the others to look at our horrified expressions and they all broke up laughing at us.

A little later that day, Dee and I were driving to the office of a client and she couldn't stop laughing over how upset the lawyer and I had been. I said that I had been raised to view the n word as unacceptable to use. All she said was, well that's how they refer to themselves.

I won't use the n word myself, but if its use is acceptable in the black community, that's their business and not mine. I will however confess to still wincing internally when I hear it being used by blacks.

[Javaman]

22. Link? nt

[unapatriciated]

23. She even looks like Kramer's mom

[DS1]

24. Baby Ruth?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

27. Does she brush her teeth with margarine?

[MellowDem]

31. Here's the problem...

"George said she was especially upset by the incident because Sacco is white - and about half the students at the school are black."

If you are going to have seperate levels of outrage for using a word depending on a person's skin color, you're going to get a lot of confusion. The N word gets used all the time in inner city schools, including among some teachers. Given that these neighborhoods are sometimes pretty tough, some teachers may use harsh language, including the N word, but it doesn't seem out of place in the overall culture of the school. This might have been what happened here. The teacher thought it was fine to use the N word because she was part of that culture.

Either way, this is what you get from the "N word is okay for blacks but for no one else" line of argument. Given that it has a lot of different meanings nowadays in a lot of different contexts, it's a pretty narrow way to approach the issue.

The woman was wrong, but the idea that she was extra wrong due to her skin color is what is promulgating this problem. If a teacher is using such language, it should be considered with equal outrage. You can't excuse some teachers using it and not others and you can't punish them differently. Unfortunatly, that's exactly what Candace George is promoting.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

46. actually that is REALLY not the problem. Everyone knows acceptability of the use of the N word

there is no way a majority can reclaim the use of a word in the way an oppressed minority can. no one is such an idiot.

this excuse that the black people did it first, is utter racist bullshit.

[MellowDem]

57. Not everyone knows...

Acceptability of the N word, like many other words, is heavily dependant on a lot of different things and different in every place and context. Assuming everyone knows and adheres to a certain "N word rule" is part of the problem and confusion. It's different everywhere you go and a lot of people, depending on how they grew up, are going to be naive.

The real problem here is that someone in a position of authority and responsibility, a teacher, was being judged on a rather ambiguous social rule by Candace George. Institutions follow codes of behavior that apply to everyone. They do not decide things based on "unwritten rules" that vary from place to place.

Basically, whether she was white or not shouldn't be the point, it's the fact that she's a teacher and regardless of skin color, should never use that word against her students. It's the idea that, had the teacher been black, Candace would have said, "well, the teacher was black, so that's less upsetting" which is the problem. That sort of idea normalizes such words and makes them more "ok" to say. You can't make certain language "seperate and not equal" and expect the problems associated with it to be solved.

I don't know what you are talking about with your other sentances, as I never said them.

[RoyGBiv]

61. This is well stated ...

Nothing to add, but I wanted to say that.

[Karenina]

62. Had the teacher been black, YES it would have been less upsetting

because of things referred to as "context" or "code language" or "register." All linguistic terms.

I've met MANY teachers burned-out on the stresses of public education and have observed their growing contempt for "the other."
It's SO SAD. :cry:

[MellowDem]

64. It is sad...

It's a reflection of the environment they work in that there is an "other" in the first place. Language can be one of the defining ways of including or excluding people.

When I was having a seminar with a class of students in my school about race (95% black), they were pretty divided over the use of such racial slurs among their peers. Some thought it showed disrespect and caused the continuation of the word's potency and others didn't care.

When I was a student, not so long ago, I heard all sorts of racial slurs, the vast majority of students used it in jest or in the way you would address someone close and dear to you. Sometimes I wondered, especially among males, if it just wasn't a way to express your feelings of closeness with someone without being seen as a "pussy" or "gay".

Indeed, gender or homophobic slurs, when I heard them, were almost always used as insults, in marked comparison to racial slurs. So maybe using racial slurs made you cool and manly enough to express your emotions in a very masochistic environment. Racial slurs have some "edge" to them after all, they are something subversive to society at large.

Now, among teachers, there is never a reason to use racial slurs. You don't have to use them to cozy up to the students, you're an adult and you can express emotion now (hopefully) without using racial slurs. Teachers who do use such slurs as a way to be "chum" with their students probably aren't leaving enough distance between the "friend" and the "professional". And of course, teachers who use slurs as insults have gone off the deep end.

[Fountain79]

32. The department of education has an investigatory arm?

Why is this a matter for them to handle and not the state? Better yet why isn't this a matter for the distritct to deal with on its own?

[Kalyke]

36. And this is where? New York?

Proving, once again and to the chagrin of many bigoted DUers, that the South doesn't hold the patent on racism.


That said, this woman should be suspended without pay and made to attend a diversity seminar to learn why her statement is hurtful.

[dem629]

43. I saw and heard far more racism in NY than I did in the South.

I don't think the North has had the much needed widely publicized racial strife that the South had (which turned out to be cathartic for many people both black and white), so the North is lagging in race relations b/c of that.

[Kalyke]

56. I completely agree.

The South's dealt and is dealing with its demons - openly - while the North sweeps theirs under the now-festering rug and pretends they don't exist - until they blow up.

[BlooInBloo]

38. BWAHAHAAHAA!!!

Sometimes you just gotta laugh at teh stupid and teh evil.

[Soylent Brice]

45. buh bye! racist shitbag.

[WI_DEM]

48. Sound like a tirade like Kramer had

[sakabatou]

49. Ugly inside

and out.

[Ilsa]

51. Where is this? It's disgusting, wherever it is. Thanks. nt

[jxnmsdemguy65]

53. Somebody needs to wash her mouth out with soap...

and clean her teeth while they're at it...

[Javaman]

58. Here's a link to the story...

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/brooklyn/2009/05/01/2009-05-01_teacher_elvira_sacco_gets_detention_for_using_nword.html

On a side note, this phrase jumped out at me, "After the incident, Sacco was sent to a reassignment center - a "rubber room" - and disciplinary action is still pending, Feinberg said."

This American Life did a piece on the infamous "Rubber Room" a while back. Basically, it's a room they put "bad" teachers. Some teachers have been in this rubber room for years while still getting full pay.

Elvira may not be teaching anymore but that doesn't mean the tax payers are free from still paying her salary.

[timtom]

59. Now, what excuse can she possibly come up with?

I mean, this is the ultimate "in flagrante delicto". There is no escape.

[Cha]

63. How damn dumb

do you have to be?

[MrMickeysMom]

66. Man, the name of the school should have been...

Park Slope Browed Knuckle Dragger Middle School!

She should have gone to career day before finishing that degree.