0 percent of British Muslims view homosexuality as morally acceptable ?

[JI7]

<The new Gallup Coexist Foundation poll out today on Muslim integration shows the huge gulf of understanding that exists in the UK between Muslims and non-Muslims. This seems to have little to do with religiosity, however, and to be more culturally based. Read our news report here.

British Muslims are among the most conservative in Europe on a whole raft of moral issues, the report reveals.

It says: 'The French public is more likely than any other population polled to view homosexuality (78 per cent) as morally acceptable. As points of comparison, 68 per cent of Germans and 58 per cent of Britons believe homosexuality is morally acceptable. Among European Muslim populations surveyed, the acceptability of homosexuality is highest among French Muslims (35 per cent ) and lowest among British Muslims (0 per cent). On the issue of abortion, the French (78 per cent) are also far more likely than Britons (55 per cent) and Germans (47 per cent) to say that it is morally acceptable. French Muslims (35 per cent) are the most likely among the Muslim populations.' surveyed to believe abortion is morally acceptable.' >

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2009/05/british-muslims-100-per-cent-against-gays.html

[cali]

1. not encouraging, that's for sure.

I wonder why British Muslims are so much more intolerant on this issue than French Muslims. That's a big difference.

[tocqueville]

4. Because the vast majority of French Muslims are secular

despite failures in integration policies, they considers themselves primarily as French which means accepting the separation of Church and State and a citizen of the Republic. So the religious considerations are secondary to non-existent specially among second and third generation immigrants. And many of them are Algerians, whose parents were fostered in the same ideals (badly applied, but still) in Algeria. Moroccans and Tunisians have never been governed by fundies in the recent years and if you watch their TVs you'll see that they look like European TV. Women don't wear hijabs in general.

British Muslims consider themselves primarily as Muslims and British when convenient. They come mostly from Pakistan with an old-core fundie culture that the Brits never tried to really contain under their Empire.

This shows the complete failure of communautarism

granting communities exceptions (religion, laws etc..) that go beyond the fundamental laws of a multicultural country (in the name of "liberty") is a fundamental error. The result won't be a nation, but a patchwork of communities.

something the US should be thinking about

[cali]

7. thank you for the cogent explanation.

[suede1]

2. Zero? Something is wrong with that poll.

[Stevenmarc]

5. Exactly

That's a huge red flag on the methodology of that poll

[tocqueville]

11. check who "did" the poll

In overall charge of this poll is Dalia Mogahed, pictured above, who heads Gallup's Centre for Muslim Studies and its unprecedented survey of more than one billion Muslims worldwide. This is one impressive woman, who recently made history by being appointed the first Muslim woman in the administration of President Barack Obama

http://timescolumns.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451da9669e2011570747e6e970b-150wi

[Stevenmarc]

13. And your point is?

If you even bothered to read the link in the OP you would have seen that the "zero" would be statistically suspect.

"Of course, anti-gay sentiment it isn't really universal among British Muslims, in spite of what the poll says.

Witness the Imaan support group for gay, lesbian and transsexual Muslims in Britain, the Safra project, and the recent Channel 4 documentary on gay Muslims"

Oh and BTW if you provide a link in a post you really should provide one that supports your position and not one wastes peoples time with a useless picture.

[tocqueville]

20. my point is that the poll isn't "suspect"

the zero can be easily explained by a rounding

if everything is rounded to the nearest %, 0.999 = "0" instead of 1%

of course you'll always find some British muslims who think that gaysex is OK. The problem is that the amount is much, much lower than in the compared countries.

there nothing "statistically" suspect with the zero unless one wants to kill the messenger.

[Stevenmarc]

21. Or

"nothing "statistically" suspect with the zero " if you are blinded by the messenger.

[tocqueville]

23. she's not my type

all polls have a margin of error of some percents. This is nothing new. What's interesting is the gap between 35% and let say maybe 1.5% in reality. The gap shows the major difference of attitude in the polled groups.

But you try to assassinate the whole poll for a technicality.

[Stevenmarc]

29. That's your assumption

I have a problem with one particular number, that when I see it, throws up a red flag. I would expect a low number but not a statistical zero considering that there are gay Muslims and their friends and family and more than enough moderate Muslims living in the UK to make that number suspect and warrants further study, it doesn't mean I want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[tocqueville]

37. ok 3%

doesn't change the point of the poll.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

42. if it was significantly less than 1 percent it could have been rounded off to 0

[suede1]

47. I meant that statistically there are many more gays than that in any group. And it's a pretty safe

bet that at least half of them would not object to themselves. Therefore, something must be wrong with the data. Maybe they didn't feel safe enough to tell the truth?

[Rebubula]

3. Color me...

...completely unsurprised.

Our assholes (repubs and christians) may be intolerant pains in the ass, but their assholes (muslims) are just as bad and many times Much worse.

[Kalyke]

6. So all American Christians and all British Muslims are assholes?

Wow... I thought liberals didn't paint with such a broad brush.


Signed,

American Liberal Christian Asshole.

[harun]

8. While more inclined to think it unacceptable morally, I think they

are much less inclined to politically do anything about it. They don't view politically making someone do something they don't agree with as some sort of holy victory to compensate for their own faults like some other groups seem to. That's in my experience in the U.S.A anyway.

Signed,
Muslim A*shole

[AngryAmish]

22. Most majority muslim nations make homosexuality a crime

Saudi, Iran, egypt.

Of course India and Indonesia are exceptions.

Anyway...fundies are fundies.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. India isn't majority Muslim, though.

It's majority Hindu.

[cali]

28. sorry, you're wrong. In Iran, you can be put to death for being a practicng

homosexula. Homosexuality is illegal to varying degrees, in many Muslim majority countries.

[get the red out]

12. Authoritarian or Patriarchal?

Could it have more to do with people who gravitate more, culturally, toward authoritarian-style leadership, or more extremely patriarchal religion? Those two styles cover many Muslims and Christians but by no means all.

[Captain Hilts]

9. It's a pretty sexist religion and most are very sexist. nt

[tocqueville]

10. but violence is ok (tihs poll is directed by an Obama appointee)

quoted from a comment :

"Looking at the PDF with all the results, I think that the most disturbing statistics are the large gap between UK Muslims and the general population on the issue of unmarried men and women having sex. 82% of the UK say that is morally acceptable but only 3% of UK Muslims. That's a huge problem!

Also, look at the unusually high percent of UK Muslims that say violence for a noble cause is almost completely or completely justified. Only 6% of Muslims in France and 3% of Muslims in Germany say violence for a noble cause is almost completely or completely justified. But 37% of British Muslims say violence for a noble cause is almost completely or completely justified. "

http://www.muslimwestfacts.com/mwf/File/118267/Gallup-Coexist-Index-2009.aspx

In overall charge of this poll is Dalia Mogahed, pictured above, who heads Gallup's Centre for Muslim Studies and its unprecedented survey of more than one billion Muslims worldwide. This is one impressive woman, who recently made history by being appointed the first Muslim woman in the administration of President Barack Obama

[xchrom]

14. recommend

[BoneDaddy]

15. ONe of the main reasons Islam needs to be confronted

on it's irrational belief system. It's treatment of women would be next on my list.

Until good liberals can get past this nonsense that we need to accept every belief system as "ok", we will be caught in this trap.

Being multicultural means you have the ability to "understand" why people from other cultures do what they do. It does not mean, as many people think, that we have to accept and agree with the practices and beliefs from different cultures.

[get the red out]

18. Agree totally

Excellent post! Well stated. When I say things like that I get a lot of flack. For some people calling out Conservative Christians on their crap is all well and good but we just shouldn't talk about the same problems (or worse) in other groups around the world (or even the small secretive groups at home). There is a belief from somewhere that if it isn't the Baptist Church on the corner spewing intolerance and sexism then we have no right to bring it up.

Authoritarianism and extreme patriarchy are big obstacles to achieving a less war-like planet and getting people's basic needs met.

[BoneDaddy]

30. Absolutely

it is amazing the level of cognitive dissonance in DU on this issue alone. The focus on the fundamentalist Christian wing is incredible, and justifiably so, but when it comes to confronting Islam, it seems inconsistent and weak.

[get the red out]

40. Because "Bush was picking on them"

I think some of it is because Bush was such an asshole who lead through war and hateful rhetoric and it was Islamic countries that bore the brunt of that (the enemy of my enemy is my friend).

Also because of a desire to "respect other cultures"; often at the very great expense of the people in those cultures. But cultures have always changed throughout history. If the people who are afraid of disparaging other cultures were to step back in time would they applaud the Salem Witch Trials or the Inquisition because it is the prevailing culture of that time? Should we admire the murder sport of the Roman Coliseum? Probably not because those guys are our cultural ancestors and it is ok to criticize them. There are people suffering abroad and here in the US because of being born into cultures that have great faults which are glossed over by voices that could be speaking up. Intelligent people being politically/religiously correct condone a lot of cruelty with their silent support. A lot of otherwise good people like to cover up human rights abuses committed in unfamiliar cultures by yelling "freedom of religion". In their minds they are simply taking up for the underdog, whether it is a woman being imprisoned for waring "immodest clothing" in a Muslim country, or an 18 year old girl being owned as a brood mare by an old man on a compound in Texas.

I could go on and on. For a while I was a registered independent. I had left the Democratic party because of this line of thinking. Bush ran me back, but I still disagree with "cultural relativism".

[Marr]

25. Well said.

I couldn't agree more. I also think people need to know that religious fundamentalism acts as a shunt for rational thought; that it is the enemy science and reason. When fundamentalism is allowed to take over a society, that society will be left behind, technologically and socially.

The Middle East was the flower of civilization not so very long ago, and the repository of knowledge (like that of ancient Greece) that would've been lost without their efforts. Now much of it is backwards and behind the times, and it's all the result of fundamentalist thought having gained control. People need to recognize this not just to help the Middle East shrug off it's irrational elements, but to prevent them from taking control in their own countries as well. The American Christian Right is exactly the same element, with a different language.

[BoneDaddy]

16. ONe of the main reasons Islam needs to be confronted

on it's irrational belief system. It's treatment of women would be next on my list.

Until good liberals can get past this nonsense that we need to accept every belief system as "ok", we will be caught in this trap.

Being multicultural means you have the ability to "understand" why people from other cultures do what they do. It does not mean, as many people think, that we have to accept and agree with the practices and beliefs from different cultures.

[readmoreoften]

51. Please don't "confront Islam" on my gay behalf.

No thanks. Gay folks were doing quite well in Soviet Kabul--then we supported the Mujahadeen. Homosexuality was decriminalized under Saddam Hussein, now the hardliner lunatics are torturing, killing and filming the executions of gay men. America can stay the fuck out of it, thanks.

Don't use gay people as an excuse. There are MANY out gay muslims in the Middle East. Let's support THEM when THEY confront their fellow citizens.

[tocqueville]

17. here is the "complete" poll

(morally acceptable)

Homosexual acts

France- General Population 78%
France- Muslims 35%
France Gap - 43%

Germany-General Population 68%
Germany- Muslims 19%
Germany Gap - 49%

United Kingdom- General Population 58%
United Kingdom- Muslims 0%
United Kingdom Gap - 58%

Abortion

France- General Population 78%
France- Muslims 35%
France Gap - 43%

Germany-General Population 47%
Germany- Muslims 19%
Germany Gap - 28%

United Kingdom- General Population 55%
United Kingdom- Muslims 5%
United Kingdom Gap - 50%

Viewing pornography

France- General Population 43%
France- Muslims 16%
France Gap - 27%

Germany-General Population 58%
Germany- Muslims 18%
Germany Gap - 40%

United Kingdom- General Population 35%
United Kingdom- Muslims 1%
United Kingdom Gap - 34%

Sex Between an unmarried man and woman

France- General Population 90%
France- Muslims 48%
France Gap - 42%

Germany-General Population 88%
Germany- Muslims 27%
Germany Gap - 61%

United Kingdom- General Population 82%
United Kingdom- Muslims 3%
United Kingdom Gap - 79%

Married men and women having an affair

France- General Population 46%
France- Muslims 14%
France Gap - 32%

Germany-General Population 24%
Germany- Muslims 6%
Germany Gap - 18%

United Kingdom- General Population 15%
United Kingdom- Muslims 2%
United Kingdom Gap - 13%

Death Penalty

France- General Population 35%
France- Muslims 24%

Germany-General Population 27%
Germany- Muslims 27%

United Kingdom- General Population 50%
United Kingdom- Muslims 63%


Use of violence for a noble cause

Scale of 1 to 5 with:
1=Cannot be justified at all and 5 =Completely justifiable

Use of violence for a noble cause (acceptable)

French Muslims 1=75%, 2=6%, 3=12%, 4=1%, 5=5%

German Muslims 1=80%, 2=5%, 3=10%, 4=1%, 5=2%

British Muslims 1=48%, 2=3%, 3=13%, 4=31%, 5=6%

http://perpetuaofcarthage.blogspot.com/2009/05/100-of-uk-muslims-say-gay-sex.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

27. Just to add to the final "use of violence for a noble cause" question

they didn't ask it of the general population this time. But in 2006-07, they asked the countries' general population, and the Muslim population of the capitals, and got:

1-2 = Not justifiable; 3; 4-5 = Justifiable
               1-2  3  4-5   
French public  79% 10%  7%
Paris Muslims  77% 15%  8%
German public  75% 11% 10%
Berlin Muslims 94%  4%  2%
British public 72% 13% 10%
London Muslims 81% 11%  8%

Which indicates the general British population thinks violence 'for a noble cause' is justifiable slightly more than London Muslims. This may be Tony Blair supporters. :shrug: Whether London Muslims are very different from Muslims in the rest of the country, or if attitudes have changes a lot in a coupel of years, I can't tell.

[tocqueville]

38. yep I checked that

the problem is the internal discrepancy within the groups

but the question is bit weird. It depends what you associate with "noble cause" : revolution or djihad ?

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. Not just either of those choices

People may hear the question, and decide that fighting Hitler was a 'noble cause', and answer according to that - they would have fought against him even if their country didn't. Or perhaps they would have joined the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War, like Orwell or Hemingway.

[izquierdista]

19. Religion IS culture

It has everything to do with religiosity. Ruth has unleashed a torrent of fatuous statements, but what else can be expected from a "religion writer"?

[LeftishBrit]

24. Something a little strange about the polling to get 0, I think

British Muslims do tend to be more socially conservative than the average (very secular) Brit; but they are not homogeneous.

There are a few British Muslim MPs, e.g. Shahid Malik, Sadiq Khan and Khalid Mahmood. They are almost always members of the Labour Party, and like most other Labour MPs, tend to vote consistently for gay rights.

[SidDithers]

26. 100% of British Muslims are wrong...nt

Sid

[DainBramaged]

31. Does it matter here? This is America, not England. If they want to be dickheads

fuck 'em.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. A few points: England is not Britain (which includes Scotland and Wales).

Also, yes, it matters, as there is a world outside America (however little you may personally care about that fact); there are also quite a few DUers who are British or living in Britain, for that matter (this isn't a forum for the discussion of nothing buit American-specific subjects or restricted to Americans only).

[Sultana]

32. Islam is much more EVIL than Christianity!

[cali]

33. unfortunately there are some people here who believe that

oth, there are people here that believe that all the evil in the world is directly attributable to the U.S. There are broad brush simplistic "thinkers" everywhere.

[BoneDaddy]

34. I don't know if that can be said in certainty

Especially after examining what was done in the Church's name throughout history. I do think Christianity has evolved and for the most part (barring fundamentalist thought)and has accepted modernity. Islam is slowly working into it but I have a feeling it will be a long time.

[mitchtv]

41. try Russian Orthodox

Closer to Islam on evil scale

[KamaAina]

39. So basically they asked one token British Muslim

and s/he happens to be a homophobe. :eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. It might be nice to think that, but it was a proper poll

In the United Kingdom, phone interviews were
conducted among the general population in June 2008 and
included 1,001 interviews of individuals aged 15 years and
older, whose households were contacted via Random Digital
Dial (RDD). Within each household, the individual with
the most recent birthday was selected to take the interview.
Data were weighted based on gender, age, household size,
and education to reflect the general population. Face-to-face
interviews were conducted with British Muslims, aged 18
and older, during July 2008 in England, Wales, and Scotland
in areas where the Muslim population was 5% or more
based on the 2001 British census. Data collection resulted in
504 completed interviews. Face-to-face interviews followed
random route protocols within assigned primary sampling
units (PSUs) to ensure that a representative population
of Muslims living in neighborhoods with at least 5%
Muslim penetration was obtained. The Muslim data were
weighted to gender, age, and selection probability within the
household.

[cali]

52. do you always just make shit up to bolster your argument?

[panzerfaust]

44. What. Even the gay ones?

[SoCalDem]

46. What I don't understand is WHY "everyone" simply MUST have an opinion on EVERYTHING

and why the "media" feels the need to constantly TELL us all what everyone ELSE thinks.

There are lots of things that I do not "approve" of, but it's also NONE of my business what other people do....

Basically, the stuff your Momma told you as a child, is the best way to live your life..

Don't take other people's stuff
Keep your hands to yourself
Share your toys & food
If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything
Stay out of other people's "business"...

Imagine the world if adults lived what they were taught

[tocqueville]

48. a recipe for passivity

"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything"

nothing nice to say about nazis, don't say anything

"Stay out of other people's "business"

not my "business" if my neighbour beats his wife, his dog and carries in and out mysterious packages at night

a recipe for the maffia, for the "I didn't know they tortured etc..."

the poll is about attitudes. Nobody forced people to answer. The aim is understanding attitudes to tackle a better cooperation between different cultural communities living together. Media only report the results.

The world you describe is the wet dream of totalitarians in the name of libertarianism...

ever heard of the principles of "common good" ? "solidarity" ?

the alternative is live alone, die alone.

[bemildred]

49. So all Homosexual British Muslims view themselves as morally unacceptable?

Bullshit.

[LeftishBrit]

53. Sadly, some doubtless do. One of the tragic consequences of such attitudes.

[LeftishBrit]

50. One day...

the Christian Right and the Muslim Right will realize how similar they are on social issues, and will join forces.

[Deja Q]

54. I, by proxy, received a death threat by a Muslim once.

He was a good family man, but I kept my mouth shut around him. I value my life too, you see...

And to me, morals is about how many people one sleeps around with. It's just morals as that revolves around consideration of the other person's soul and emotional well being... it's about trying not to spread diseases as well.

It's a complex issue. But one CAN be non-hetero and still decide to build ONE important relationship than to sleep around with several persons because it's (whatever people see it to be). That's the one stereotype I loathe the most. Gays, and especially bisexuals, are out there floozying around and spreading disease. No wonder we have the "immorality" cant pegged at us.

want immorality? Go after Levi. He's the one saying "it's unrealistic". If it is, it's because more people are like *him* that wantonly prefer to be selfish little vermin.

Sorry to wander into a tangent... it was deemed sufficiently relevant, however.

[Nikia]

55. Sometimes people are intimidated by face to face interviews

The interviews of the Muslims were face to face in areas where Muslime exceeded 5% of the population. The interviews of the general population were conducted by phone.
If ther interview was done in front of other family members, British Muslims might be more likely to say it is unacceptable. Some people can also be influenced by the interviewer in face to face interviews. If they believe that the interviewer will morally disapprove of them if they think that homosexuality is acceptable, they may say that it is unacceptable.