Middle School football players rape boy with broom and hockey stick

[sixmile]

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/may/08/deputies-walker-middle-school-boy-raped-4-teens/news-metro/

TAMPA - Four teen boys at a middle school in Hillsborough County's Odessa section have been charged with sexually assaulting a 13-year-old boy.
Hillsborough Sheriff's deputies say the four boys, ranging from 14 to 15, assaulted a classmate at Walker Middle School on April 30 using a broomstick and hockey stick. The arrests were made Wednesday.
Deputies say two of the teens held down the boy in a locker room at the school while two others assaulted him.
All five teens were members of the school football team, according to Hillsborough School District spokesman Steve Hegarty.
Charged with false imprisonment and sexual assault are:
Randall John Moye, 14; Raymond A. Price-Murray, 14; Lee Louis Myers, 14; and Diamante J. Roberts, 15.
Deputies say the boy was continually harassed by his four classmates for nearly two months before the assault.

Something's in the water in the Sunshine State this week, and it aint good.

[Raskolnik]

1. That's some f'd up business, there. n/t

[sixmile]

4. Almost as bad as the demon who killed the baby earlier this week

It's getting downright medieval here in Florida.

[KakistocracyHater]

136. it was sodomy not rape-that requires a vaginal canal

I only say this to point out that by calling it "rape" there is potential to reduce actual rape of women/girls. Sexual assalt already is an example of this dangerous pattern. Terrible, but sodomized.

[NMMNG]

144. Bullshit

Rape is rape whether the victim is male or female, and whether the perpetrator(s) are of the same gender, opposite gender or mixed. Get out of your antiquated mindset that only women can be raped.

[KakistocracyHater]

194. Again, I know it was an attack on the guy

I just still think rape is what happens to women alone, even elderly women & infants, but I feel it is insulting to women to call sodomy rape, when those would be 2 COUNTS in court against the perp.

[NMMNG]

211. Be insulted all you want

It doesn't change the fact that rape is rape. Forcible sex is rape whether the victim is male or female. No vagina required.

[KakistocracyHater]

213. so it's ALL rape to you-even oral?

Each to me is an individual crime & anyone guilty should be charged for each act. Your way would reduce all the charges to only 1.

[KakistocracyHater]

216. LET ME REWORD THIS: THE WORD RAPE IS BEING USED AS A

CATCH-ALL TERM HERE, & I AM USING IT AS ONE WAY A SEXUALIZED ATTACK IS CALLED. I AM NOT SAYING THE GUY WAS NOT ATTACKED, THIS SEEMS TO BE THE MAJOR PROBLEM.

[madokie]

240. The kid was raped by his classmates using a broom handle and a hockey stick

You are knutts as a squirrel if you think other wise. IMO

educate yourself

[Kalyke]

229. I'm a woman and it doesn't insult me to call what happened to this boy, rape.

He was raped. It's just as harsh - if not more so since the anal canal isn't made to stretch in the same manner as the vaginal canal - as any sexual assault on a woman.

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[provis99]

149. no, its clearly sodomy, not rape

Only women can be raped. As men have no vagina, they cannot be raped.

[Heidi]

150. You're using an antiquated definition of rape.

Rape is the commission of unlawful sexual intercourse or unlawful sexual intrusion. Rape laws in the United States have been revised over the years, and they vary from state to state. Historically, rape was defined as unlawful sexual intercourse with a woman against her will...As of the early 2000s, all states define rape without reference to the sex of the victim and the perpetrator.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Rape

The crime of rape (or "first-degree sexual assault" in some states) generally refers to non-consensual sexual intercourse that is committed by physical force, threat of injury, or other duress.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Rape

[Recursion]

234. Actually "rape" means "abduction"

I think you're being deliberately obtuse and hurtful.

[Heidi]

151. Wrong. You don't know the contemporary legal definition of rape.

Look it up before you spout this sexist horseshit implying that males can't be raped.

[KakistocracyHater]

193. All I know is that males can be sodomized

I've never heard it legally changed to rape. See my other comment.

[pipoman]

156. WTF are you yammering about??

by calling it "rape" there is potential to reduce actual rape of women/girls

This is, without a doubt, the absolute stupidest thing I have read in months (and maybe forever) on DU. Why is it you would think such a thing? Certainly this is as heinous, destructive, and psychologically damaging regardless the gender or orifice violated.

[KakistocracyHater]

192. so you don't get how lawyers have reduced a rape charge

to sexual assault? THAT is what I meant. I also remember a crime, where a man raped a cashier & then flipped her over & sodomized her. I very strongly feel that the very term 'SEXUAL ASSAULT' was invented to reduce a rape to something "legally less" than rape.

[pipoman]

215. And how exactly is anal violation less than rape?

And what difference does it make what it's called as long as the penalty is long and severe? Is forced sex with women or girls a greater crime than forced sex with men or boys? Is forced anal sex less of a crime than forced vaginal sex?

[Xithras]

233. No, it was the realization that an assaulted anus is just as traumatic as an assaulted vagina.

The real damage from a sexual assault isn't from the penetration, but the mental trauma that goes along with it. Psychologists long ago realized that the mental trauma from an anal assault is no different than a vaginal or oral assault. Vaginal rape was given special status for a long time as a side effect of the patriarchal notion that a woman was "devalued" when someone other than her married husband had sex with her. As those notions were set aside, a simpler realization occurred...that all forced sexual activities are equally traumatic.

You suggest that equating sodomy to rape somehow devalues women, but your own position does exactly that. At one time, women who were sodomized were treated no differently than women who were beaten by muggers. Once your physical injuries healed, you were expected to "get over it" and move on. After all, "at least you weren't raped!"

Modern laws don't devalue rape, they reflect the realization that other sexual crimes including sodomy and forced oral copulation are just as traumatizing.

[Dorian Gray]

167. That's BS

It is just as much rape as vaginal penetration. Forced anal penetration on a female is rape, too!

[grace0418]

174. Uh, WTF?

Reduce actual rape?

[glitch]

179. And you are reducing the actual rape of this boy. nt

[Toucano]

202. Exactly. n-t

[LostinVA]

180. Laughable -- it's rape

Which you very well know.

[flvegan]

2. Little monsters.

[hedgehog]

3. How could they not realize that they would be caught?

Not to mention - two months of daily harassment, where the hell were the school personnel?

[Echo In Light]

7. Now go read this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5609545

[panzerfaust]

65. In my experience, encouraging the footballers to act out against

someone who must have been seen as different.

No. I do not say the teachers encouraged them specifically to rape, but I do expect that the teachers encouraged - or at least ignored as '(real)boys will be boys' - when these cretins bullied, pushed, harassed and otherwise tormented this lad.

[Horse with no Name]

5. Ughhh

I'd support life imprisonment for these young gentleman.
They are old enough to know better and not young enough for it to be a dumb mistake.
Oh, I'd check out their home lives with a fine tooth comb as well.

This was NOT a childish prank. These monsters purposefully targeted and bullied this boy for 2 months until they were able to perpetuate the final humiliation. In other words...completely premeditated.

[depakid]

16. This illustrates a big problem with America

Take a nasty case like this one- and then seethe for unmeasured retribution.

[Horse with no Name]

26. This "incident" was not just a "in the wrong place at the wrong time"

or horseplay that got out of hand.

Much like jackals, these 4 boys targeted and preyed upon their victim for TWO MONTHS. That is the crux of this case and what mandates that the punishment be harsh.

These boys are old enough to stalk and victimize their target for a prolonged period of time. There is no functional place in society for them.

[Echo In Light]

27. Recall that "powder puff" hazing in a wealthy Chicago suburb?

When that story broke via the infamous video, it was eventually revealed that for over a decade, with EVERY teacher and admin person fully aware of it, the senior girls, and TOP STUDENTS, both academically and athletic, would haze the junior girls by making them eat human and animal feces, animal parts, garbage, paint thinner, etc, would beat and kick them ....and this was an annual "tradition." This is how people are conditioned to abide corporate culture "values."

DISEASED empire

[Fumesucker]

62. ""with EVERY teacher and admin person fully aware of it""

Exactamundo..

Our culture has some serious problems, this event is but a symptom.

[Maru Kitteh]

134. Well, we realize your inclination is to give rapists and other sadists a sloppy kiss and big hug

to make up for all the trouble they've been through, but thankfully the vast majority of us understand just how untenable that approach is.

[SoCalDem]

205. and to think that not that many years ago, boys that age

would be all a-twitter at the thought of holding hands or calling a girl..and mostly preoccupied with riding their bikes, playing baseball or just hanging out with their friends...and now some are engaging in sexual torture:grr::cry:

[alcibiades_mystery]

231. Sexual torture of this kind has been the norm in Western schools for 100 years or more

To represent this as some new development is laughable.

[mainegreen]

6. Send the fuckers to juvie until their 18.

That'll screw up their lives almost as much as they've screwed up this kid's life.

[FLAprogressive]

8. 4 years for rape that'll teach 'em.

:eyes:

[mainegreen]

10. They're juviniles.

It's about all you can do to them.

[depakid]

18. Not in states like Florida (at the moment, at least)

[mainegreen]

20. Well, they should throw the proverbial book at them whatever that book is.

Up here juvie is about all you can do.

[depakid]

24. They certainly deserve some time away from society

and taking away some of the best years of their youth- and marring whatever their futures they might have had is pretty harsh punishment.

[FLAprogressive]

25. they've ruined this young boy's LIFE.

[depakid]

32. And their lives will be ruined in return- in probably worse ways

What more do you want?

[konnichi wa]

45. I want their bollocks for earrings.

...

[hedgehog]

43. I don't accept that. If I did, I would have to accept that every woman who is raped

is also ruined for life.

[Big Blue Marble]

48. I have know both men and women who have been raped.

As a woman, I have to say it seems mess up the men more than the women. That is not say that the impact on the
women were not grave. But the damage seemed to run even deeper in the men. It may be even harder on their self esteem
and self image to suffer this level of humiliation and loss of bodily control.

[MindPilot]

68. Yes, you are very correct. Please see my post #61

Male on male rape tends to occur in institutional settings, school, prison, military, and is even more difficult to report in the face of the fact that the victim will not only be dismissed because they could fight back or protect themselves like any real man should, but also are very likely to be in a situation where they must live and work with their rapist.

[Beam Me Up]

107. Yeah, I don't accept that either. Many of us have traumatic experiences of

one sort or another and generally speaking we learn to cope. Some of us have to get professional help to do so effectively, but that help is available.

What is most important here is the fact that this kid obviously took the matter to his parents who took it to the authorities who are doing something about it. Had he not, had he suppressed it, hid it from his parents and so on, THAT would be what could lead to serious life-time harm. If this works out as it should, he will have used the system as it is meant to be used to prevent precisely this kind of abuse. He will have stood up for himself, protected himself, and in so doing protected others from the abusers. Meanwhile the abusers have their own lessons to learn and, as others have said in this thread, I'd look at the home life of these boys very, very closely. Where did the idea to do this come from? What kind of rage, fear and other emotional baggage are they acting out here?

[sixmile]

117. These 'boys' come from asshole parents

There seems to be much of that going around in this new generation.

[depakid]

131. We don't know that

What we do know is that something's gone terribly wrong for such a thing to have happened- and apparently for some time escallated in a middle school.

[Marr]

46. Are you kidding me?

Let's be honest. Anyone who can do something like this-- even at 14-- is never going to be worth a damn. You could throw the lot of them in a cell for the rest of their lives and they'd leave society no poorer.

The only person I'd consider here is the boy who was so abused. I'd like him to feel that society did right by him.

[depakid]

52. How about let's be honest, shall we?

Your approach (or rather- base emotional reaction) doesn't work. In fact, there's a pretty good argument that by reacting like that and imposing life sentences (and other such deals) you create the very conditions- and the sort of society that fosters EVEN MORE of the very behaviors that you want to discourage.

Rather like cutting off one's nose to spite their face, don't you think?

Among other reasons- this is precisely why you set off to war so easily in Iraq- and why you gave up your civil liberties and tossed aside your highest priciples. To get that pound of flesh, which is worth more, apparently- than any rules of reason or moderation.

[Marr]

60. This isn't about the invasion of Iraq, the shredding of civil liberties, or torture.

The vast majority of the people you're disagreeing with here are against those things. Let's try to stay focused.

You seem to be advocating something like a time-out and a stern talking to. I'm saying I'd be inclined to consider the feelings of the victim over the long-term career opportunities of the aggressors. I wouldn't be in favor of life imprisonment, but I do think these perpetrators need something harsher than juvenile hall.

[Fumesucker]

66. But the behavior these kids exhibited is just them emulating what they have seen..

C'mon, at least admit it to yourself, American culture is way fucked up in more than a few ways.

Look at the pictures from Abu Ghraib, this is exactly the sort of thing that went on there and there are plenty of influential Americans who fully approve of that sort of thing, all the way up to the very top of our society.

And the ones at the top who approved Abu Ghraib have not even been tried or censured, let alone punished.

[Marr]

78. I'll admit that freely.

Fear and violence are centerpieces of the American public psyche. No doubt that was a part of the stew that created these little bullies. But we're talking about a single crime, a single victim. If your child were abused in this way, would you prefer to let the abusers off easily in the interest of soothing the American zeitgeist? C'mon.

We have a duty to the victim here-- not just our conscience.

[Fumesucker]

89. Nothing we do to the perpetrators is going to help the victim..

The victim needs a great deal of love and counseling..

I have a feeling that something "Lord of the Flies-ish" was going on here, I'm truly more interested in finding out what went wrong in the school to allow this to escalate to this point than I am in punishing the perpetrators. Only by knowing the full facts of the matter can we try to minimize the chances of this sort of thing happening in the future.

I would be extremely upset if this was my kid, whether victim or perp and would probably want vengeance if my kid were the victim.

Over the last couple of decades I have tried to move away from the "getting even" mentality since I've found it's been very counterproductive in my own life.

[malaise]

100. 100% correct n/t

[depakid]

70. It's exactly the same sort of mental process

that leads to reactions beyond what's necessary or appropriate to deal with the problem. Retribution is not the be all and end all of criminal (and especially juvenile) law- though that notion's always tested when you have a heinous act.

Some states go overboard- and end with counterproductive results. Florida's a prime example (which is why life without parole for juvenile offenders is now before the Supreme Court).

Yet even Oregon had a case like this (think about the process).

Some 13 year olds were swatting girls bottoms- and one apparently felt a girl up.

Prosecuters charged them with Measure 11 violations- which would have led to a mandatory 7 years and as I recall, registry as sex offenders. The case went on for about a year, until enough people finally came to their senses. And I'll note, the kids- and their families per a civil judgment didn't get off particularly lightly- but the Measure 11 bit was tossed out.

As I mentioned in my initial post, these sorts of deals illustrate a much larger problem in American society- one that goes well beyond egregious facts in any particular case.

[Marr]

82. Here's where I lose you:

You're talking about a broad, macro view of the American psyche. Of course our public psyche is twisted and sick in many ways-- it's a product of lots of things, not least of all an imperialist system that fosters fear in order to fuel itself. It's almost an unconscious thing.

But that national psyche is not going to be changed by handing out more sympathetic sentences to the little monsters it's created. So long as we live in this society, we have to deal with the messes it makes.

[depakid]

86. It's not about "symapthetic" sentences- but measured responses

Toss out something nasty like this- and people jump. As with the Oregon case I cited, some communities will finally say "enough!"

Others- and unfortunately the deal seems to be spreading- is more interested in lock 'em up, let 'em be abused in adult prisons- and keep 'em there a long, long time. Or worse. That's just not something other nations do. Why? I think because their citizens- and hence their systems are more resilient and less likely to view kids as "monsters" -to dehumanize- foul as their behaviors were.

I don't know what sentences they might expect in say, Australia. It wouldn't be a slap on the wrist, for sure- but it also wouldn't be what's to be expected in Florida- or called for by people on a progressive message board.

I also GUARANTEE that the school administration and faculty could be expecting a serious inquiry, with possible charges.

[sixmile]

115. There in NOTHING 'progressive' about defending rapists

So don't try that angle.
And Florida has a huge correctional system because Florida is full of assholes who belong behind bars.
Clearly if that was your kid who was raped your tune would surely be different, perhaps vengeful.

[Fumesucker]

152. There is something progressive about not sentencing children to life in prison..

Fourteen and fifteen year old kids are just that, kids. They can't sign a contract, they can't vote and they lack quite a few of the rights of adults. There is a reason for this, it is due to the fact that our society recognizes that kids of that age are not yet fully formed and responsible humans.

Yes they should be punished, but life in prison for something you do at fourteen is by no means a progressive position and that's what I see advocated by some here.

And Florida is no different than any other state in having a lot of assholes.

[LostinVA]

163. However, they are still sociopaths at 15 and 16 -- and, they are NOT "children" at that age

They are teens and minors, but not children. The rape sentences in this country are a joke. They should be life in prison but they aren't, so let these little rapists serve the same sentence someone TWO YEARS older than them will serve. Then, they can get out and rape again like the other rapists do.

[Fumesucker]

166. Eh, at Columbine Eric Harris was a sociopath while Dylan Klebold was not..

Klebold was severely depressed, easily led and suicidal. I read a few weeks ago that Klebold had a notebook full of writings about love and drawings of hearts and similar sappy stuff.

True sociopaths are rare enough that it is extremely unlikely that all four of these kids are sociopaths..

Not to mention that the Milgram experiment shows that the majority of adults can be frighteningly easily induced to torture another person to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

I honestly think that the great majority, if not all, of us have a monster inside that is just waiting for the right combination of circumstances to make itself known.

[Lilith Velkor]

237. "something harsher than juvenile hall"

You clearly have no idea what goes on there.

[Spike89]

230. The crime shouldn't be the factor

The whole point of juvenile law vs. being tried as an adult is the maturity level of the child. Juvenile court isn't just for misdemeanors, it is for people with diminished capacity, i.e., youth and if a kid is too young for adult court, he or she is too young and the crime they are being tried for shouldn't be the determining factor. Of course, some of the details and motivations from the investigation can and should help inform the judge making the decision.

I do understand that the original reasons for the juvenile court system are mostly ignored in sensational/brutal cases, and some states pay little more than lip service to the concept. Still, these are kids, even if horribly cruel ones.

[azurnoir]

39. They can be certified as adults

it's done all the time when the crime fits and I would say gang rape qualifies as an adult crime

[Hepburn]

176. Agree...

...it is not merely an issue of a childish prank and some counseling. These "children" are a danger to society. They need to be kept away from others...and that is the first issue. Rehabilitation, of course, is also an issue. But let us protect society first. Try them as adults. If they are old enough to rape, they are old enough to pay the penalty for rape.

JMHO

[Obamanaut]

40. Isn't it true that if the crime is heinous enough, juveniles can be

charged and tried as adults?

Why isn't someone mentioning "hate crime"? Their actions seem hateful to me.

[mwooldri]

140. 4 years? Sorry that's too light a sentence.

Let's try 25.

[sixmile]

9. And then what?

Juvie may be bad, but it does nothing to bring back this child's innocence.
Examples must be made from the top down.

[hedgehog]

11. What's the point of making an example, when people who behave like this can't think ahead

to figure out that there will be consequences?

[Deja Q]

17. That there won't be exceptions. Get some friends and do this monstrous activity against a person,

and you WILL be caught and THAT is the punishment you get.

There ARE times with condign action is necessary.

It's like that Levi jackass going around saying "it's not realistic", which is his excuse for impregnating girls and leaving them.

Set consequences. These are REAL crimes that affect REAL people.

[depakid]

36. And that's worked so well in Florida and the rest of America, hasn't it?

You have the world's largest prison system- and routinely exact the most draconian sentences on juvenile of any nation in the world. Yet- where do see these cases most often?

[sixmile]

41. You're very apologetic and guiltless

What would your punishment be for these fine exmaples of American youth were you the judge?

[Fumesucker]

49. depakid is just pointing out that our culture is the most retribution oriented one

Certainly in the developed world and possibly on the planet, and yet this sort of thing is more common in the USA than it is many other places where criminals are treated far less harshly than here.

Our culture is broken in some basic ways, that is the point he made.

[Deja Q]

160. An amusing statement, given who gets stoned or beheaded in other countries... oh,

a lot of these problems weren't so common before 1970. Even "children having children" was becoming an epidemic, reported in "LIFE" magazine in the early 1970s.

Something happened; a paradigm shift that said (amongst other things) that "boys will be boys". Bullying has become an accepted practice. We tolerate teenagers making babies but don't say anything because someone might feel hurt.

As if it matters. Nobody's going to look back and see what has worked over the decades and what hasn't. I don't expect to see changes, improvements, or pretty much anything else.

But bullies and other filth can fuck up peoples' lives. Royally. And are allowed to do so. I think that's wrong. I'm sorry there are some people on this site that want to give those bastards a free ride. Damn straight, I'm livid.

[Fumesucker]

189. What country has the highest incarceration rate on the planet?

I'll give you a hint, the initials are USA..

There are many other nations who treat criminals far less harshly than do we and yet have far less truly horrific criminal behavior going on. If you really and truly want to minimize these kinds of things happening then it behooves you to at least try to understand how our society is broken.

It's interesting to me that so many people just want to focus on these particular kids in this case when there is an excellent chance that someone in authority at the school tacitly approved of what they were doing to the victim. I honestly have a hard time believing that "continual harassment" for nearly two months could have happened without someone in authority becoming aware of the behavior.

We have bullies and other filth at the very highest levels of our society and they fucking brag about what they have done and yet we do nothing but some fourteen and fifteen year olds do something similar and so many people want to completely ignore the societal aspects of their behavior.

I had stuff nearly as bad happen to me in grammar school and no one did anything, I was damn near drowned in shit filled toilets more times than I can recall (it's called "swirlies") and I wanted vengeance for many years but I lost that desire some time during the time I was raising my own child when I realized that my anger was really only hurting me.

[depakid]

50. I'd look at the facts of the individual cases -and bear in mind that they're 14 and 15

In the abstract- I'd also bear in mind how sensible and civilized nations render judgments in similar cases (as opposed to the reactions that have become all too common is a nation full of torturers).

[Obamanaut]

71. Surely you're not saying that these cretins should be excused by

virtue of being 14 and 15? Don't you think they knew that those objects did not belong where they were putting them? Are the teenagers you know THAT stupid? Plus, having to hold him down should have a clue as well.

Send them to an adult prison for the maximum sentence.

[depakid]

74. I'm saying that this has become something of a barbaric society by international standards

which is illustrated by some of the responses here- yours being among them.

[Obamanaut]

81. Well gee, take away their ipods and make the victim apologize for

getting in their way. That'll show 'em.

edited to add :sarcasm: in case you couldn't tell I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for the misfits who did this.

[depakid]

87. You completely miss the point

though that's usually the case when folks let base emotion short circuit their reasoning process.

[Obamanaut]

90. The point is, there are four barbarians on the loose. Put them away

for as long as the criminal justice system will allow. Charge and try them as adults. Show the same mercy they showed while they were wielding the foreign objects against that kid.

That is the point. Anything else is just apologists' excuses - school system negligence, lack of supervision, tacit approval by authority figures - all these have already been mentioned.

Put them away. Let their parents visit them on Sundays, put money in their accounts so they can buy candy, and let them get soothing ointments from the medical department for whatever orifice is bothering them the most at the time.

[depakid]

94. You seem to be a very good case in point for why the US has become like it is

ignore the systemic problems- the root causes, so to speak and belittle anyone who points them out while trying to keep you from satisfing your unrelenting quest for vengence of the worst possible sort.

Voila! A torturer is born!

(and one who can very easily manipulated, btw).

[Obamanaut]

103. You see, you are not even sure you want to use me as an example.

You used "you seem to be" rather than "you are." There is a difference.

When one of your own children is raped, then see if your opinion is modified a bit.

Have a nice day.

[depakid]

108. Your posts are illustrative of the process

"bad act or event" -----> "intense emotional reaction" -------> "extreme vengeful response against directed at bad actors or perceived source of event" ---------> "belittlement of calls for moderation, reflection and inquiry as to root causes" ---------> "ensure public policy or higher principles of law don't stand in the way"

"repeat"

[Obamanaut]

116. I don't know whether to feel chastened or educated. Damn!

Whichever it is, I remain in the "put them away" column despite the flow chart.

[sixmile]

121. Good for you. Crime is crime no matter the age of the perp

A couple years ago (also here in Florida) a group of 10-15-year-olds savagely raped, beat and tortured a woman in West Palm Beach forcing her young son to watch the whole incident. I'm not sure if they've come to trial yet, but as a 'civilized' society we should demand maximum punishment for violent offenses. I don't care how old they were. I don't care if they were 'good boys' just trying to 'turn their life around'. I don't care why they did it. I only care that they did it, and the victim gets justice.
And don't tell me teenagers don't know right from wrong; they know full well. And if their asshole parents didn't teach them right from wrong then they should be held responsible, too.
I'm tired of this shit.

[depakid]

122. Not trying to be mean- just noting: that's how it seems to work

You can plug lots of things into the begining quote- and the process plays out (tending to amplify as it repeats).

It's worked like this for many decades- and Republicans have exploited it, with torture, the world's largest, most expensive prison system- and violent and dysfunctional society being the inevitable results.

[Fumesucker]

96. When you exact vengeance you become that which you hate..

At least to some extent..

Kids are naturally barbarians, I blame the parents to some extent since they seem to have failed in the task of civilizing their children. I'm a parent and grandparent and if my kid or one of my grandkids did something like this I would feel responsible for not properly raising them.

Yes, there are "bad" kids who are sociopaths but I'd be surprised to find that all four of them were sociopaths. At Columbine, Eric Harris was a sociopath but Dylan Klebold was not, he was deeply depressed and easily manipulated, I read the other day somewhere that Klebold had notebooks full of writings about love and drawings of hearts and the like.. We are such complicated beings and there are so many ways we can go off the rails in small and large ways.

I did some exceedingly dumb stuff when I was a kid to try and feel like part of the group, I like to think I would never have done something like this but I think that would be self deception, we all have a monster inside waiting to be unleashed if it is given the right conditions.

[Obamanaut]

105. Good post, and I agree about the monsters inside. nt

[Mopar151]

123. I beleive your perspective is about right

Parents, coaches, teachers, and peers all need to be part of the investigation and evaluation of these little monsters - they did'nt learn this stuff off Sesame Street.
Leaders & followers- how true! Part of breaking the whole bullying cycle has to do with giving kids knowledge enough to see what is happening to them, and seeing how deviants pull people into their schemes.

[MilesColtrane]

135. Calling for them to be locked up for more than four years isn't exacting vengeance in my book.

If you are incapable of basic empathy to the extent of NOT engaging in months of bullying culminating in a violent sexual assault by the time you reach 14 years of age, then there is something broken very deeply inside of you.

[depakid]

137. delete-

We all get over the top sometimes about issues that we care about,

[Fumesucker]

148. There are calls for them to be locked up for life..

That would be vengeance in my book.

I suffered at the hands of bullies pretty badly myself, I was small for my age and skipped two grades in early grammar school. I wanted vengeance for a long time, I got over that sometime while I was raising my own child.

[MilesColtrane]

159. Fortunately most sitting judges disregard any public outcry for either...

...unreasonable leniency or draconian punishment.

They'll probably get 15-20 with eligibility for parole after 8-10 if they are convicted.

[Fumesucker]

164. That may be.. but it doesn't change the fact that there are calls for vengeance..

On an ostensibly "liberal" and "progressive" board.

And we wonder why half the American public thinks torture is OK.. :cry:

[frogcycle]

172. I assume you would not pull weeds from your garden then n/t

[Fumesucker]

185. Children are not weeds..

And you using that analogy reveals much about you..

[frogcycle]

207. If you think that insults me you are wrong

With 6,778,792,699 people* we are far past the point where every life was "precious" regardless of sociopathic tendencies.

I am progressive as hell when it comes to protecting life - the life of the planet. Runaway overbreeding of one abusive species is destroying the planet, so I don't have a hell of a lot of tolerance for handwringing over lost causes.

* http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/popclockworld.html

[Bluenorthwest]

168. so, you'd look at the facts

but you were asked not about your process but about what punishment you would select. I also want to note that you have said not a word about what you would suggest doing to help the victim of the crime, is that outside your way of thinking? To me, that is the most important part of the whole process.

[sendero]

126. Bullshit.

.... we have crowded prisons because we incarcerate harmless drug users.

Your entire line of argument on this thread is bullshit. These little TORTURERS deserve whatever they get. If that was my kid, I'd kill the little miscreants before they can reproduce.

[Obamanaut]

128. I'm inclined to agree with you. nt

[Deja Q]

162. Like I mentioned in a response up there, we ignore the problems (aka the dealers)

I must have said something wrong, or I misread the person to whom you were responding -- but draconian or not, I support your decision to kill the miscreants -- a victim of more abuse most people on DU could even begin to fathom, I am damn lucky I turned out as good as I did. And I can tell you, right here and now, those fuckers really do their best to hurt others' lives. Jail them, fry them in a chair, they just need to be GONE from society.

And a society ran by people who care about society - not just lining pockets with money.

I think you responded to the same person I did. Drug users certainly aren't a problem (if they have a history of stealing because of the drug use, they can be rehabilitated). Those who peddle the drugs are vile pieces of constipated shit and deserve no reprieve. The dealers should be locked up.

[sendero]

182. I apologize..

.... my comment was directed the joker who was basically saying there should be serious punishment for these TORTURERS.

How there can be OUTRAGE at the govt torturing prisoners but "compassion" for these folks, who will turn out to be criminals no matter what, is beyond me.

[Deja Q]

161. You mean those who go into the prisons get stoned to death or beheaded or something?

I'll admit we put in lots of people into prisons for some dumb reasons (e.g. why not get the people who sell the dope; not the users who smoke it. Going to the root of the problem like how we always don't... we did let drug dealer Tim Allen out and he became famous... what if he were black... he'd be in there a lifetime. Tim's happy to be a honky, no doubt...)

But when it comes to "draconian", the US can't hold a candle to some other countries. Especially if one is a woman.

But back to the US, because we have more influence in our home countries than we do in others' and it's not our business to interfere and it wouldn't be seen too nicely either...

We just like to imprison people, who then leech off the system because they don't get their cable or television or elective surgeries... meanwhile, all of us are slaving away at jobs that are restrictive in scope, are seen as costs to be eliminated... fuck, man, in ways it's better in prison and I think that might be why a lot of people want to go there.

There are dozens of reasons why the system is screwed up, but people like to go after the symptoms and often say the core causes are not problems. THAT is the bullshit.

[mainegreen]

12. Sending them to juvie would be the example.

No kidding it won't bring back the kids innocence. Nothing will.

That's why there must also be punishment.

[Cronus Protagonist]

28. I don't get how you think the kid is no longer innocent

He's the victim, not a member of the guilty.

[mainegreen]

30. No no, the victim has lost his innocence.

The other innocence. Innocence of youth.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. Sorry, I still don't get that

He's still a youth. I guess the word "innocence" is a euphemism for something else.

[mainegreen]

38. 'Innocence of youth'. You loose that for sure when raped by a hocky stick.

It's a euphemism for how kids still often have this bright eyed view that the whole world is a wonderful place, if only we can blah, blah, blah.

Most of us loose that when we enter the real world. Many people loose it earlier.

Rape for sure does that.

[safeinOhio]

56. NO sex ed or really shitty sex ed at that school

[JVS]

29. What do you want, should we shoot the perps?

[Deja Q]

14. The victim will end up like me and hopefully will remember his humanity. I had...

Once these pieces of shit go to juvie - send them to adult prison.

Indeed, malicious animals - why waste food and water to keep their sorry lives going? They're worthless scum.

[MindPilot]

77. Did something like that happen to you too? n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

203. Screw that try them as adults and send the to prison for the next 30 years.

[Deja Q]

13. No punishment is deemed "draconian" for these four animals posed as human beings.

Unless somebody wants this sort of activity to be tolerated and supported, of course.

How would anybody reading my response deal with these four pieces of shit?

[depakid]

21. Spoken like a true American

Is it any wonder why you became a nation of torturers?

[gratuitous]

15. They were charged with a crime?

Wait, I'm confused. How is this a crime? And isn't this just looking backwards to the past, when we really should be working on the future? What if it turns out that one of the boys or one of their friends wrote a note explaining that it was all right to shove a hockey stick up the other boy's ass? Doesn't that make it legal? What if the rape gang was really, really scared?

But I suppose it's just a bad analogy. There must be a way to blame this on gay marriage.

[Horse with no Name]

19. Excellent and succint analogy

Once we justify and sanction torture, we are all torturers and none of this brutality is really off limits, is it?:(

[gratuitous]

64. I remember back in 1999

The Republicans were all wringing their hands and clutching their pearls about how they could possibly explain to their children the finer points of the President of the United States getting oral sexual gratification from a woman-not-his-wife. What sort of message would the impressionable youth of our country get from this tawdry little episode if our dudgeon wasn't sufficiently high? I think it was Henry Hyde who blubbered that the flag was falling, and it was up to Republicans to catch it and single-handedly save America's reputation.

Now, I don't know where these boys learned such cruelty, but they'd have to have been the most sheltered troglodytes on the planet not to have gleaned at least a little of the ongoing back-and-forth over actual torture and the rationalizations for it being proffered on Fox and in other media outlets. Did the implied permission of torture advocates inspire them? I can't say for sure. And neither can the likes of Charles Krauthammer, Rush Limbaugh, Dick Cheney and other "respectable" voices in our country.

I'm all for punishment of the perpetrators, taking into account their age. But I'm even more in favor of holding accountable the people two, three, four and even five times the age of these offenders who have polluted our society with their actions and arguments.

[nichomachus]

173. These kids don't spend a lot of time watching/reading the news

They listen to music and hang out. If they watch tv, it's just mind-numbing stuff. Faux News is too cerebral for them. (I can't believe I just used Faux and "cerebral" in the same sentence.) After all, Faux is designed to appeal to its base, which has an average age of 67 -- not the stuff that would appeal to a 14-year-old middle-school jock.

[Libertyfirst]

186. It will take some time for me to recover after seeing those words in the same sentence. n/t

[Cronus Protagonist]

31. It wasn't any worse than a hazing, heck it WAS a simple hazing!

nothing that a tax decrease for the richest wouldn't fix.

:sarcasm:

[bluestateguy]

22. Expulsion. Imprisonment until age 21. No education. No future.

I would not be surprised if they did this because the boy was thought to be gay; not only are gay teens bullied, but also any boy who is insufficiently macho Alpha Male, and is merely suspected of being gay.

[csziggy]

76. How will a lack of education prevent the offenders from doing worse later?

I am not advocating a slap on the wrist but the boys who did this need better than simply being locked up and released with little education other than the one they would get in juvvie on how to be a better criminal. "No future" = a future of further criminal acts.

I have no idea how they could be "reformed" or what to do with them - if they cannot be, I am all for locking them up for the rest of their lives. But locking up large numbers of people, including minors, has done nothing for this country.

Remember, Florida is the state where we had the Florida School for Boys in Marianna where horrors and death were visited on boys who were incarcerated for as minor offences as smoking and where 31 graves are being investgated. Read "For their own good: a St. Petersburg Times special report on child abuse at the Florida School for Boys" http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article992939.ece

Florida is the state where we had boot camps where at least one boy was beaten to death by guards: http://www.sptimes.com/2006/02/16/State/Boy_died_from_interna.shtml

Simply locking them up is not the answer. Brutalizing them the same way they brutalized their victim is no the answer. Obviously our society has not found the answer.

[bluestateguy]

88. That's not my problem

There are too many young people who play by the rules who have a hard time making it in this country for me to worry about these thugs.

[csziggy]

98. They are all our problem, the good kids and the bad kids.

And by the time they commit a crime like these boys did, it may be too late to make them useful to society.

Without an education and rehabilitation, there is no chance they will be anything other than thugs and criminals the rest of their lives. Lock them up in Florida's current systems, either as juveniles or as adults, and they will just learn to be better and more brutal criminals.

Yes, we should spend more on good kids who follow the rules since they will be the better people in the future. But there are enough cases of young people who seemed destined for a useless life that later found their niche and became good people that I cannot think that just throwing them out will do them or us any good.

The uneducated teenager is the uneducated adult criminal with nothing left to lose for whatever crime comes to their mind. We have enough of those and need to develop new strategies for preventing this cycle.

As I said, I don't know what the answer is, but throwing young people out into the world with little preparation is not it.

[Schema Thing]

184. I'll leave my (play by the rules) daughter's future in your hands then, sir!

:eyes:

[Recursion]

235. The hell it's not

You live in the same world with them when they get out.

[Fumesucker]

23. I find it hard to believe that somone in authority at the school did not note..

Nearly two months of "continual harassment".

I think the school should be investigated, obviously the perpetrators are responsible but I think there must be some official responsibility for this as well.

And it's unsurprising to me that it was football players who did this, there is something sick about jock culture in some schools in the USA, I know jocks in the HS I went to were more or less out of control and no one did anything about it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

33. Was it brought to their attention prior to the incident?

I'm wondering because my experience at school was that all this kind of stuff is done out of the ken of the teachers.

[Fumesucker]

42. Continual harassment for two months would give a lot of chances for adult observation

Kids today are far more closely supervised than they were back in the day.

Where in the school could "continual harassment" take place that an adult would not find out over the course of two months?

Keep in mind these are middle school kids, not supervillains with superhuman sagacity.

[depakid]

53. That would surely seem to be the logical focus of inquiry

What systemic conditions existed that allowed this to occur repeatedly and escallate. My bet would be that at the very least, one would fing that there's some pattern of negligence going on.

[Fumesucker]

57. I suspect it may be more than simple negligence

I have no way of proving anything and details are extremely skimpy but it wouldn't surprise me to find out these kids had the tacit approval of an official or officials for the harassment, which is why they thought they could get away with the penultimate act.

[depakid]

83. Quite possibly

That's why an investigation of the middle school is in order.

[Echo In Light]

154. Oh, there'll be a consistent deluge of denials, of course

[WI_DEM]

34. Thank goodness no kids just being kids replies on this one.

[konnichi wa]

44. Unfortunately you're mistaken. See #36

:grr:

[Fumesucker]

47. depakid and I certainly have our differences..

But "kids being kids" is not anywhere near the argument he is making in that post..

He is pointing out that our culture is broken in some very basic ways.

[depakid]

73. We're coming it it fom slightly different angles- empasizing different things, yet

we're on same page with this issue.

[Cass]

37. Where was the coach or teacher? This is an outrage.

The article says "the boy was continually harassed for nearly two months before the assault". Where the heck was the supervision? The teachers had to be aware of what was happening to this boy yet he was left alone long enough with these thugs for them to do this. That is unforgivable.

I hope the parents rip that school apart in court.

[lpbk2713]

51. They will no doubt use the 'overworked and understaffed' defense and walk away from it all.

And the victim will be lucky if he can even get a transfer to another school.

Just watch. It will happen.

[bumblebee1]

145. THis boy will probably be forced to be home schoolec.n/t

[havocmom]

54. Too many of them have had to deal with screaming parents threatening lawsuits

It starts at home and it starts when kids are VERY young. When parents abdicate their authority and responsibility for setting standards of behavior, they often seem very hostile to any other adults who try it later in a kid's life, well after the behaviors have been established.

I hope the parents of the youngster also shame the parents of the perps to the point they face their part in this too.

We, as a culture, have to stop blaming teachers when parents fail. Yes, hold schools to standards of behavior and enforcement of rules, but do not expect that faculty can rid society of badly reared children generation after generation. How many teachers? How many students per teacher? How about parents doing THEIR part, since they have a much better adult to kid ration and several more years to work with their kids than teachers do?

Parenting. It is damned important.

[Fumesucker]

59. You certainly have a valid point..

But I don't think it fully excuses ignoring nearly two months of continual harassment with a topping of rape.

We have kids strip searched for Tylenol in our schools and yet bullying of this severe a nature is tolerated?

This is one seriously fucked up culture.

[Cass]

114. "I hope the parents of the youngster also shame the parents of the perps..."

I agree with you on that 100%.

Parents absolutely have the duty to instill in their children right from wrong, but the school also has a duty to keep students safe to the best of their ability while the students are on campus. According to the article, this boy was harassed continually for 2 months so it sounds like it was something the teachers would have been aware of. That's why I question why there wasn't better supervision.

I also don't think any child should have to endure months of continual harassment in order to get an education. If the school can't provide him with a safe learning environment free from harassment then some other arrangement should have to be made for him or, better yet, for the bullies - throw them out so other students can learn in peace.

[Taverner]

55. No offense - but why does this shit always happen in FL?

Seriously

There has been some fucked up shit going on in the sunshine state...

[csziggy]

80. For over a generation, Florida has been cutting education and resorting to locking up

Offenders with few chances at rehabilitation. Hell, look at the link to the Florida School for Boys in Marianna I posted above - way longer than a generation Florida has been brutalizing young offenders. Our system has been broken for longer than I have been alive.

[Taverner]

106. OK makes perfect sense

Explains Texas too

[Lorien]

139. Yep. Low tax, low wage, poor education states with lots of for profit

prisons is a recipe for very, very high crime rates.

[cwydro]

181. Well, in NY

a bunch of cops raped a prisoner.

So I think scumminess is not anything to do with where one lives.

[Obamanaut]

191. And here, in a state other than FL we have

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5625017&mesg_id=5625017

[panzerfaust]

58. Again - public schools, public school sports, and in particular public school football

... are found to be bastions of bullying and should be abolished.

Yes, I truly believe that (look up my old posts on it, not going into it all again)

Shut 'em down.

[LostinVA]

92. Yup, this seems to make teh news every two years or so

Football players raping other boys of disabled girls with broomsticks, etc.

[JerseygirlCT]

102. There most definitely does seem to be too much

weight given to participants in that particular sport. Too many adults investing too much of their own egos, and allowing kids to behave violently. Who doesn't remember the cult of the jock in HS? And the football players were top of that hierarchy. All bow and make allowances...

Every kid has something that makes him/her special. It's a shame that not all those talents are nurtured and applauded with the same enthusiasm.

[JonLP24]

109. That would affect the positive effect of the vast majority who benefit from it

Sure there are bad apples but lets not ruin it for the rest of them.

Adrian Peterson with most of his immediate family murdered, where would he be today without school football to help him develop his skills and get a college education? Or Michael Oher with his father murdered and his mom addicted to crack, where would he be? The majority in football and basketball are black, many come from imperfect backgrounds however got college education and further there skills in life. I hate to see something done by bad individuals to ruin it for the rest of them. Anyways I know you don't want to discuss this so I'll leave it at that. But sports has done alot of good for alot of people.

[Bluenorthwest]

170. Ah but sports is not the only path

but it is the only one that gets the constant approval of high buget support. I have known many more people from difficult backgrounds who made better lives via the arts than via sports. Sure, athletes are talented at playing a game, but many others are equally talented singers or dancers or actors or poets or musicians, in schools where there is a huge sports program, and no arts whatsover.
The lack of balance is a huge problem.

[MineralMan]

124. I don't disagree with you, at least on the local level there.

I suspect that these boys had a middle school football coach given to the not untypical derision of non-athletes or poor athletes. I've heard such coaches refer to such boys as "faggots" and "girls."

Such encouragement does nothing to prevent some boys from taking bullying to an extreme.

This school should, at a minimum, be required by the state board of education to shut down their football program for an extended period of time. By so doing, a lesson would be given to the entire community, especially if this is one of those towns where football comes before all else.

I would not go so far as to ban football in all schools, but I would certainly encourage schools to have a non-sports-oriented faculty member attend all football practices as an observer. Such a thing would be roundly opposed by many coaches, but would serve as a check on unrestrained assholes serving as coaches.

[donco6]

190. But, But . . .

"As a participatory sport, football can build self-esteem, teamwork, leadership, and physical fitness.

"As a spectator sport, football can inspire school spirit. At the college level, especially, it can also bring in revenue. For some universities it is a major source of revenue. It keeps alumni interested, and thereby contributing. There are also direct revenues from ticket sales, merchandise, etc." (from WikiAnswers, but I've heard all this same crap from coaches and parents).

Yeah, evidently these guys know all about "teamwork".

[MindPilot]

61. I wonder how many times this has happened without making the news

You know how hard it is for a woman to deal with being raped, telling her loved ones, going to the authorities? It is many times more difficult for a male.

Had that been me I would have said nothing to no one. In fact I did...for decades.

[Fumesucker]

67. My sympathies on your suffering..

I have a hard time imagining what you went through and are probably still going through.

It enrages me that this sort of thing has been condoned at the very highest levels of our society.

[MindPilot]

75. Thanks, man

I've never "come out" about this on DU so I guess now is as good a time as any.

I was jumped by 4 or 5 guys and had involuntary intimate relations with a mop handle. I was 18, and a sailor aboard a US Navy ship in the Gulf of Tonkin.

I could not identify who did it, but I got to spend another 8 months on that ship knowing I was literally living and working with my rapists.

Who ya gonna tell?

[Beam Me Up]

110. I understand your predicament.

The answer ought to be simple: You tell our superior officer (or whoever the proper authority is), the SO has an inquiry and identifies the rapist and any accomplice and punishes them appropriately.

Unfortunately in most situations it doesn't work that way. I think this is where the, "take it like a man," phrase actually comes from -- so this sort of abuse is, or has been, deeply rooted in male dominance 'pecking order' culture for eons.

That's the problem.

[Hepburn]

177. OMG....

...I am so sorry this happened to you!

[renate]

187. I am so sorry

To have something like that happen, far from home, and then to live for eight months with everybody around you one of the possible rapists... I don't even know where to begin imagining how difficult that must have been. I am so sorry that happened to you. To not be able to go home where loving arms can help you recover in a place you feel safe... :cry:

[bunnies]

63. an eye for an eye.

thats what these little fucking hate-filled shit heads deserve. AN EYE FOR AN EYE!!! Anything less is an insult to the victim.

If this happened to my son, I'd fucking castrate the bastards myself. :nuke:

[Fumesucker]

69. Leaves the whole world blind..

I would probably feel similarly given the same set of circumstances, but that wouldn't make it right.

Keep in mind that there are many DUers who approve of prison rape and indeed find it funny.

[bunnies]

72. I know. And I even felt evil when I posted it....

but WTF?! WTF makes young kids so hateful and violent and evil?! WTF makes them even consider doing this to another human being. WTF kind of heartless, sociopaths must these "children" be?! It makes me SO angry. :mad: :mad: :mad:

That poor boy. Rape is hell. :cry:

[depakid]

79. When you have cops tasering kids in Florida schools, it teaches them something

Much the same as Fumesucker's noted about what's seemingly been sanctioned at the highest levels of government.

[bunnies]

85. Something is seriously wrong with our society...

at the deepest, most intimate level - when 8th graders are capable of behaving like this. I really just dont understand. What is to be the future of the human race if THIS is how our children are behaving?! What do we do?!!!

[Beam Me Up]

112. something is seriously wrong with our society but it isn't anything new

we live in an abusive social environment. Most of the things most people take for granted as being "just the way things are" are abusive. The whole structure of our society in just about every aspect is abusive.

So, children act out that abuse and adults act out that abuse and the abuse gets passed on from generation to generation. The only way to stop it is to see it for what it is and work to stop doing it in one's own life -- however that abuse shows up. So far as I can remember, for example, I was not physically or sexually abused as a child. However I was emotionally abused and that has left scars that, although I've learned techniques for dealing with them as an adult, still exist and will never go away. And I'm certainly not unique, far from it.

[Fumesucker]

91. That says something good about you, IMO..

That you felt evil about your post..

Civilizing children is a long and slow process, kids are naturally self-centered and turning them into truly civilized adults is not an easy chore most of the time..

I wish I could say this surprises me but it really doesn't, I guess I'm too much an amateur historian to have many illusions about human nature.

[imdjh]

84. I wonder if it's just perspective.

I wonder if people who live in Houston turn on the news each morning to find out what serial killer or whack job criminal has ties to their area. Killed your grandmother with a potato peeler, the hard way? Must be from Florida. Killed a tourist and stuffed her up a cow's ass? Must be Florida.

[Mojorabbit]

93. I think there is something broken

in kids who would do something like that. I don't know if it is fixable. I don't have the answer.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

95. Lord of the Flies. nt

[Kaleva]

97. Greasing used to happen in the Navy

It never happened to me but I have seen others get the business end of a grease gun stuck up her their rears or had their ass crack packed with a mixture of grease and coffee grounds.

[Libertyfirst]

188. I don't think most people realize

how much causal cruelty young (and not so young) males inflict on each other. I can remember several stories of things that happened in schools I attended all over the east coast. Shame or fear usually prevented them from being reported.

I agree with both sides of th big argument. These four guys should receive stern punishment and the society needs a major effort in these areas.

[malaise]

99. WTF???

These kids are beyond sick.

[JerseygirlCT]

101. What in the world leads children to think like that?

Seriously. Those have to be some screwed up homes they come from. I don't believe children are born violent; they've got to learn that.

[JonLP24]

104. I was hopeful the Supreme Court would do something about the way the system treats juveniles

The life imprisonment w/ no parole and sending them to adult prisons until I see this thread and I see people that support these type of practices on a Democratic website I lost hope. Adult prisons are unsafe for juveniles, we are worried about safety of prisoners that's why we have protective custody for cops, pedophiles, child murderers, and we seperate gangs from rival gangs and we seperate GLBT from general population. A teenagers brain is not fully devoleped and many don't do the same stuff they do as teenagers, I know I don't do the same stuff. I've had broomsticks stuck up my butt(w/ clothes on and not to the extent of the victim in this case) many times in middle school and high school. But as adults I never once had a broomstick shoved up my butt. Of course they should've known better and I'm definately not condoning this, but locking them up for life or putting them in adult prisons is wrong for juveniles, because of this current police we have minority juveniles serving life sentences on a 10 to 1 ratio compared to white juvenile prisoners. Anyways my 2 cents.

[depakid]

113. Here are the two cases set for argument next year:

along with a bit of analysis:

Graham v. Florida and Sullivan v. Florida

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/analysis-why-two-juvenile-sentence-cases/

Remember, it's only been 4 years or so since the Death Penalty was abolished for juvenile offenders.

[sixmile]

119. I'm not even sure where to start replying to your post

except to say 'I'm sorry' for you having been vioolated?

[madmom]

111. I'm kind of curious about something. Around here they usually don't print

the names of people charged with a crime if they are minors. The only exception is if they are repeat offenders. Is this the case here also?

[sixmile]

118. They put names and pictures in the article

Click on link in OP

[madmom]

125. I know that. That's why I'm asking, usually around here they only do

that with a minor if they are repeat offenders. Are these suspects repeat offenders?

[Obamanaut]

222. From the article, they will be tried as adults

"Assistant State Attorney Pam Bondi said today that the four teens will be tried in adult court."

[merh]

133. If they were adjudicated to be adults the names can be made public

There are laws now that say juveniles that commit crimes of violence can be adjudicated adults and tried as same. I would imagine that based on the charges and the fact that their names have been published, that has happened here.

[Freddie Stubbs]

236. It is because they are being charged as adults

[southernyankeebelle]

120. WHAT BULLY BASTARDS - I WONDER WHAT THE HELL

THEIR PARENTS WILL THINK. THEY SHOULD ALL BE ARRESTED AND SERVE A LONG PRISON TERM. TO TOP IT OFF I WOULD CLOSE THE FOOTBALL LEAGUE AT THE SCHOOL DOWN. I WOULD SUE THE SCHOOL FOR NOT WATCHING OUT FOR THIS KID.

[TK421]

127. This week? Have you ever lived in Florida?

I have....and this doesn't surprise me in the least

[TK421]

129. Put them in a REAL jail....let them learn the HARD way

since they did this out of fun, let them find out how FUN it is to be in the penitentiary! no more of this soft shit...where we are more concerned about their feelings...how about the feelings of that boy who was raped?

[xolove09]

130. i went here.

This school was such an amazing school before class of 2013 came.
Honestly, they made it awful.
they brought a bomb to a bus top last year, and now this?!
its hard to believe that it happened somewhere i came from.

[Raine]

132. The poor kid

he's going to be tramatized for years if not his whole life. :cry:

[npk]

138. Reading the entire article. Boys will be tried as adults

Which I would assume means if they are convicted, with no plea or reduced sentence, they could get life in prison. Of course we all know that a plea will happen long before this gets to trial, but the mere fact that the state plans to charge these boys as adults would put them in much tougher plea zone than what the plea would be in juvenile court.

[Kat45]

141. Why doesn't it surprise me that they're on the football team? n/t

[roamer65]

142. From our own country that condones torture...kids that torture.

Why am I not surprised to hear of a story like this one?:shrug:

We really have some soul searching to do as a nation.

[JustJeking]

143. What is going on in Florida?!!

Every *day* I hear of horrendous crimes beginning committed in this state (I live in the Tampa Bay area). I'm surprised I'm still here after two and a half years. That poor kid. I hope he gets the help he's going to need...

[Bluenorthwest]

171. Thanks for thinking of helping the victim

that should be eveyone's first concern.

[TexasObserver]

147. I blame the men who encourage hatred toward homosexuals.

Some high school and middle school coaches routinely engage in language that equates homosexuality with weakness, and promotes antipathy toward gays.

[Echo In Light]

153. A very unpopular view, but yes, jock culture is immersed in it for what should be obvious reasons

As we moved a lot when I was a kid, I ended up attending several different schools, and every one of em featured an elite jock/cheerleader culture that is VERY right-wingish (exalted strong leader types w/shaved heads, and obedient, ass kissing authoritarian followers who worship the gladiator mentality).

Much of the climate of social violence in schools is based around this type of preferred, favored, encouraged authoritarian hierarchy (w/o calling it what it actually is, of course) that is prevalent in sports culture. But because sports is akin to religion in America, stating the obvious about it usually draws hostility and denial.

To be sure, some schools are worse than others, there are other social distinctions within the corporate pop culture model that contribute to violence, and not every jock is a young republican, sadist goon. Even though I'm sure someone will respond to this insisting their school wasn't anything like that, or that their kids aren't like that, many most definitely are, and it's only because the poison jive is (in keeping w/most things American) put forth in the mainstream culture as being the opposite of what it actually is and represents that there's exists a social coercion to remain in denial of it.

[Heidi]

155. Excellent point. (nt)

[olegramps]

157. Where in the hell were the supervisors?

How could this have gone on for two months? When I was in school, the coaches were always present and overseeing what was going on. This included the locker room. It is hard for me to imagine this happening, but again I guess I am too old and out of touch.

[Fumesucker]

165. Probably tacitly endorsing the abuse..

I really don't like jock culture and I'm probably biased for that reason, but that is my opinion until I see an investigation proving otherwise.

[ismnotwasm]

158. How horrible

The poor kid, it doesn't say how badly he was physically injured, and I can only imagine how psychologically battered he is.

The boys involved are in need of a lot of help, if it's not too late. I don't know what juvie is like in Florida, but generally, school football players aren't the ones that end up there. They may be in for a very difficult time. I did some work with youth offenders, and I've seen institutionalized kids with nothing that appeared human behind their eyes. There were human of course, and so deeply damaged it always appears like a miracle if they can be reached. Those type of kids will eat these young rapists alive so to speak.

Reading through this thread, I just want to say that first, that rape is not easier for women, just more common and expected. It's not cool to say that it is, that's bullshit.

I also want to say that these boys will most likely not get the sentences they deserve, will not get the help they need because our justice system for youth is overwhelmed and often has a cookie cutter approach. The media attention this is getting will get those kids a harsher sentence that will probably be reduced when it all dies down. Depends if the parents have money. I don't agree with treating youth offenders like adults. I think they need immediate and tough consequences especially in heinous crimes like this with a lot of counseling and reevaluation of behavior.

It doesn't sound like this was a spur of the moment act, and it's quite possible it's not the first crime of this nature at least one of them had committed.

[jdp349]

169. not gonna touch this one with a 20 foot pole

[Hepburn]

175. Un-fucking-believable...

...and totally EVIL!

:nuke:

[TransitJohn]

178. Four more registered sex offenders

unable to live anywhere.

[Joey Liberal]

183. They must be young republicans........ nt

[BlooInBloo]

195. Ah. I wondered where the next generation of cops would be coming from....

Now I know.

[aikoaiko]

196. If convicted in adult court, life with the possibility of parole seems appropriate to me.

If the perpetrators can show they are no longer a danger, then let them out. If not, keep them locked up.

[Fumesucker]

197. Generally it is not possible to prove a negative..

And Obama has already said he does not intend to prosecute adult torturers in positions of authority.

Either torture is a crime worthy of prosecution and punishment or it is not, there really is no middle ground.

[aikoaiko]

198. What does the torture prosecution have to do with this case?

Parole petitioners must do what they can do.


edited:

[Fumesucker]

200. Which is worse, what these kids did or what our government paid torturers did?

Grown, supposedly fully responsible adults..

I personally see what these kids did as a form of torture, I'm sure it was exceedingly unpleasant for the victim.

As I pointed out somewhere upthread, I endured abuse, including near drowning in piss and shit filled toilets, when I was in grammar school, nobody did a damn thing about it.

Do you really think no one in authority at the school had the slightest clue what was being done to this poor little boy?

I would like to see the perpetrators punished, what I find really hard to understand here is the great number of posters who give the school officials a total pass on this, I honestly think there was tacit complicity on the part of one or more school officials in what really is a form of torture.

Kids today are far more closely monitored than they were back in the day, we have had strip searches performed for Tylenol in schools.

[aikoaiko]

204. Regardless of any US sanctioned torture, these kids are sadistic and dangerous if the report is true

And I support investigating the school/sports supervisors too, but still, these kids need to go away until they convince people they have served enough time and are not a danger to anyone. I don't know how they can do that but thats on them now that they gang raped a boy.

[Fumesucker]

206. But we are going to have people who have done at least as bad or worse..

As grown adults walking around free in our society, and Obama supports that.

Personally I think these adults are at least as dangerous as the kids who did this stuff.

And until I or depakid points it out, no one even mentions investigating to see who in authority at the school looked the other way as this was going on. In my mind those are the *real* criminals in this horrible situation.

You see, I know that there were officials at my schools who knew what was being done to me, I blame them far more than I blame the kids who stuck my head in unflushed toilets.

[aikoaiko]

212. There are different levels of possible culpability with the supervisors of these teens.

So far all we know about is the teens who abused the younger boy. They are REAL criminals if the reported facts are true. First and foremost they need to be dealt with regardless of the adult supervisors, and yes their time for judgment should come too.

Its not an either-or situation. But unless the supervisors had foreknowledge, encouraged the older teens to rape the younger boy, or were otherwise actively participating, I blame them less then the actual rapists.

[Fumesucker]

214. At Columbine Eric Harris was a sociopath, Dylan Klebold on the other hand was not..

Klebold was deeply depressed and easily manipulated, I found out not long ago that Klebold had a notebook full of writings about love and drawings of hearts and other sappy stuff.

True sociopaths are rare enough that it is extremely unlikely that all these boys are sociopaths although probably one of them is, the ringleader.

We all would like to think that we could never behave in such a manner, but the Milgram experiment shows that a majority of adults can be induced to torture someone to death with terrifying ease. All or almost all of us have a monster inside just waiting to for the right set of circumstances to be called forth.

If this is true of adults, how much more so for children?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article, "The Perils of Obedience", writing:

The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.

Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.

[aikoaiko]

228. I'm not sure how Milgram applies in this case -- are you saying the coaches and supervisors stood in

the room demanding that they continue raping the younger boy? If that were the case, then yes, I'd be more sympathetic, but there is not report of such a thing happening.

In fact, in one variation of the Milgram Obedience Studies, the experimenter instructed the "teacher" and then left the room. Under that condition, only 20% obeyed completely. Obedience is a funny thing, but there was no authority compelling obedience in this case -- only peers if anyone. More over obedience dropped to 10% when there was more than 1 "teacher" who expressed doubt about continuing.

My position is that if the story is accurate, then these teenagers need to removed from society until authorities are confident they are no longer a danger to society. And the adults should be held accountable too -- but we still need to find out how much they knew or participated.

[Fumesucker]

238. Its about following a leader..

I'd be willing to bet that one of these kids is a sociopath and the other three were being led.

Authority is also present in gangs.

[SmileyRose]

199. 5 kids lives shot to hell for what?

The football coaches and administrators at that school should probably be fired.

[Fumesucker]

208. Not just fired... Prosecuted for negligence at the very least..

The abuse went on continuously for nearly two months, it's hard to believe everyone there was totally clueless.

[SmileyRose]

220. School coaches are usually "god" to their players.

there are exceptions but the coach sets the tone for what it means to be have respect. Clearly, this coach set the tone that hurting people and being a bully is the way to prove you are "the man". This coach has no business being within a gazillion miles of coaching children. I doubt he's even fit for coaching grown men.

And yes, I know I'm making a lot of assumptions based on my previous knowledge of both good and bad coaches.

[Fumesucker]

223. It's not often I get surprised by people's reactions to things..

But I have to admit I'm a bit taken aback by how many DUers don't want to address the fact that there is probably some adult or adults who bear some degree of culpability in this horrific incident. The idea has only been acknowledged by a very few posters to this thread.

[Echo In Light]

224. No different than our phony democracy model: a few bad apples is ok, but NEVER question the system

[Fumesucker]

225. Sigh..

Apparently you are right.

There are days I hate to log on.

[Echo In Light]

226. I know. It's so bizarrely predictable on some levels.

Cynicism of intellect, optimism of will. Hang in there man :)

[Toucano]

201. Terrible.

I am so thankful that I am not a kid in these days.

[backscatter712]

209. Life sentence. No parole. They leave prison in a pine box or not at all.

I'm personally a fan of a two-track prison system.

For the lesser offenders, lots of rehabilitation, job training, psychiatric treatment, everything they need to reintegrate into society.

These kids aren't suitable for that path.

They're suitable for the other track - for the psychopaths, the repeat offenders - the ones that CANNOT be rehabilitated. For these, a life sentence. Simple warehousing is all the prison system has to provide for the non-rehabilitatables - a cage, minimal food and medical care, and wait until they die.

Fuck these pieces of shit.

[Fumesucker]

210. What about the officials that looked the other way?

I don't believe for a moment that no one knew anything about what was happening.. Kids today are watched far more closely than back in the day.

[backscatter712]

217. Punish them too.

Gross negligence resulting in serious injury - that's worth a few years of prison time.

[depakid]

218. Such obsession with punishment

It's not hard to see why America's built the world's largest and most expensive prison system- yet another aspect of the society that people in other nations find quite vile.

[MrsBrady]

219. when O when is bullying going to be taken seriously?

???????

[stewartcolbert08]

221. I don't think this is a question of supervision.

Supervision has nothing to do with it, if they didn't do this at the school they would have found another deed in another place. These kids shouldn't have to be baby-sat at this age in the locker room. They all know right from wrong, even a five year old could probably tell you that a hockey stick doesn't belong there! There is something terribly wrong with these kids who are responsible for this act, makes me wonder what else they have done that no body knows about yet. This is not something you just do on a whim. Something else is up. :shrug:

[varkam]

227. I see that the Keyboard Commando Corps is out in force. eom

[alcibiades_mystery]

232. I'm waiting for the Prison Rape Fetishists to decry this, while promoting rape for the perps

The odd logic is always so comical.

[varkam]

239. Remember: Rape is only bad when it happens to people we like.

When it happens to people we hate, it's time to break out the pom-poms.