I know that our protests against the Iraq War failed, but

[choie]

does anybody think organizing protests aimed at pressuring congress/Obama/Holder to investigate and prosecute the torturers would do anything?

[msongs]

1. yep, the Iraqi war/occupation continues full steam ahead and unabated nt

[Better Believe It]

2. That's because the mass protests against the Iraq War stopped years ago!

Outside of a few relatively small protests organized by a few organizations the anti-war movement pretty much dissolved.

The problem was a lack of leadership in the anti-war movement, mainly the failure of the two principal anti-war coalition leaderships to organize mass unified actions (sectarianism) and the decision to abandon anti-war protests in favor of working on behalf of "peace" election candidates who continued to vote in favor of war funding!

[choie]

3. okay, but I'm asking specifically about protests to compel

action against officials (bush/clinton, whoever) who were responsible for giving the green light to torture.

[lunatica]

5. Seen from another angle, NOT protesting will guarantee nothing is done

Our insistence will put pressure on them and in a way it's our obligation to do what we can because we are each accountable for what we do and what we don't do. The fight is always worth the effort, whether we win or lose.

[G_j]

6. exactly! nt

[patrice]

9. This zero-sum thinking is sick. Small things CAN be very important, especially when

they are based on a strategically well-developed knowledge/experience base.

Have you ever read Paolo Friere's book Pedagogy of the Oppressed . . . ?

Everywhere I look I see people whom Freire would say have "internalized the oppressor" by accepting the oppressor's definitions and assumptions about what is significant/important/powerful. It's as though people continue to play checkers because that is what "our leaders" are playing, when in fact, chess is possible and quite possibly also more powerful, or at least has many more options for the struggle.

Solidarity, G_j!

[G_j]

14. internalizing the oppressor

so true

we must start by questioning many of our assumptions about the way things work.
Where do these 'givens' come from?

[patrice]

15. Yep. The only real Revolution begins with criticizing one's self.

What am I doing?
What am I not doing?
What is possible?
How will I recognize outcomes?
When can something happen?
Where am I?
. . . etc. etc. etc.

[patrice]

10. Absolutely true. Concrete, direct, local action is always worth the effort, even

when your stomach may be queasy from a steady diet of politics and politicians. Issues ARE food to Social & Economic Justice and we MUST stop leaving the ISSUES to be defined by rich lobbyists. Direct, non-violent, communicative, local, concrete action is what we should be doing.

I hope to see the big national rallies again someday, but right now, this thing is about finding like-mind-hearted responsible/accountable souls to work with locally.

[patrice]

7. Top-down thinking MUST stop. Are you looking for cooperative activists in your immediate community?

How is a "big" significant movement supposed to just suddenly materialize out of thin air?

The important work right now is directly active networking with related issue groups, work exchanged for work in order to cooperatively build active coalitions. Even the shared commitment to carry the message by talking to anyone and everyone at every opportunity, in your neighborhood, at festivals, at church, ANYWHERE - setting objectives to get the message out AND keeping yourself accountable for doing specific things (speaking, fliering, finding other people . . .) to foster communication.

WARNING: Do not internalize the Oppressor. Never underestimate what (even "small") non-violent, public action can do to influence the climate in which all of the issues develop.

[patrice]

8. Ask yourself if you are internalizing the oppressor.

Why is someone else supposed to do something before something can be done?

How is a "big" significant movement supposed to just suddenly materialize out of thin air?

The important work right now is directly active networking with related issue groups, work exchanged for work in order to cooperatively build active coalitions. Even the shared commitment to carry the message by talking to anyone and everyone at every opportunity, in your neighborhood, at festivals, at church, ANYWHERE - setting objectives to get the message out AND keeping yourself accountable for doing specific things (speaking, fliering, finding other people . . .) to foster communication.

WARNING: Do not internalize the Oppressor. Do not accept the Oppressor's assumption that only "big" and "famous" are powerful. The only REAL solutions come from individuals who create them. Never underestimate what (even "small") non-violent, public action can do to influence at least the local climate in which all of the issues develop.

Are we slaves waiting for one master or another to make it possible for us to be effective?

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I disagree

The problem is our media. We have been protesting but get little, dishonest or no media coverage.

Two years ago there were 700,000 of us in DC. FOX said "dozens" and CNN said "thousands".

In the month before we invaded Iraq in 2003, there were 300 or 400 MSM stories on the war and THREE gave the anti war viewpoint.

Our media sucks. That's why you think there is no anti war movement.

[patrice]

4. I suggest that perhaps you think too much in "zero sum" terms. If an outcome is not

what YOU define as "the outcome", is there, in fact, no outcome at all?

a thing I learned from teaching highschool and junior college for eight years: Something is always more than nothing.

Even when that Something isn't what you were looking/hoping for, whatever it is is real and it offers opportunities for creative adaptation, which is also known as LEARNING.

Even if you can't see it, this country IS fundamentally different because of individual responsible ongoing activism.

[choie]

11. who the hell are you lecturing to?

[patrice]

12. Someone who appears to be defeated and is trying to defeat others. BTW, not a lecture . . .

This IS what I am doing with my life right now, i.e. not a hobby.

Do you always just start right out yelling at someone who disagrees with you? No wonder you're so defeated. You are a dinosaur.

[patrice]

19. P.S. If the shoes doesn't fit, don't wear it. nt

[patrice]

13. THIS IS SLAVE MENTALITY. nt

[choie]

16. I think you're having a conversation with somebody in your head..

I am not at all defeatist. I'm mulling over how to start real action to prevent torture from being swept behind the curtain. You seem to be in another reality all your own.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. If I feel it's just, I protest

I don't stop and think if it will be effective or not. It's my duty as a citizen to speak out.

And yes, I still stand on the corner and protest against the war.