Yeah, Socialism Sucks. The Happiest Places In the World

[Mr. Ected]

Where in the world do people feel most content with their lives?

According to a new report released by the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development, a Paris-based group of 30 countries with democratic governments that provides economic and social statistics and data, happiness levels are highest in northern European countries.

Denmark, Finland and the Netherlands rated at the top of the list, ranking first, second and third, respectively. Outside Europe, New Zealand and Canada landed at Nos. 8 and 6, respectively. The United States did not crack the top 10. Switzerland placed seventh and Belgium placed tenth.

The report looked at subjective well-being, defined as life satisfaction. Did people feel like their lives were dominated by positive experiences and feelings, or negative ones?

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-interests-27761674;_ylc=X3oDMTFzODRwOWZjBF9TAzI3MTYxNDkEX3MDMjcxOTQ4MQRzZWMDZnAtdG9kYXltb2QEc2xrA2hhcHB5cGxhY2VzLTUtOS0wOQ--


When the 21 percenters whine and stomp their feet and cry and spit out epitaphs like "Obama is a socialist", perhaps the question should be, "And what's so wrong about that?".

Let's face it: the Rush Limbaugh's of the world would not, could not, exist, in places where the majority of the people were happy with their lives. Alas, we live in America...where anger, jealousy and racism still reign.

[stray cat]

1. I thought Finland had one of the highest suicide rates?

[bread_and_roses]

4. Yes, that's always brought up by

right-wing shills (not suggesting that is your motivation, I take yours to be a genuine question about a genuine puzzle). Of course, the same RW windbags never note that probably 100 X the number of suicides in all of Northern Europe die by gun violence in US every year.

I'm not well-versed in the topic, but as far as I've read no one knows why yet - I remember reading somewhere a conjecture that the long, cold dark might have something to do with it, but it was put forward as speculation, not fact.

As far as I'm concerned, if the price of health care, children having enough to eat, decent schools for all children, comfort in retirement for all, a living wage, freedom to unionize, vacation and family leave, income support for the poor, an unpoisoned environment, and an absence of an Imperialist war machine is a high suicide rate, bring it on. We can work on the suicide rate.

[Echo In Light]

11. Yep, and Canada's health care system is a NIGHTMARE!

[irislake]

16. I trust you are being sarcastic.

I'm happy and my friends are happy. You can't be serious.

[paulsby]

36. i've heard mixed opinions from my canadian friends

one of my best friends is a canadian citizen and doctor who moved here and is working here.

she HATES their medical system.

but my understanding is that most people are pretty satisfied with it.

[irislake]

39. Canadians are as ferocious about their health care as

all too many Americans are about the right to bear arms! I'd rather have the health care. (Not that we don't have guns.)

[paulsby]

48. her family has a few guns

they live in rural BC, though.

ime, rural folks in canada and the US have quite a lot in common.

[Echo In Light]

53. Yes. Didn't use the 'sarcasm' tag as I didn't think it necessary

The first response in this thread was of a typically disparaging tone, so I threw out one of the more common myths that's often floated by brainwashed Americans - the Canadian health care system.

You're unfamiliar w/the overall thrust of many of my postings, aren't you? :rofl:

[Mika]

27. Seasonal affective disorder (SAD)

Seasonal affective disorder (SAD)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder

Symptoms of SAD may consist of: difficulty waking up in the morning, tendency to oversleep as well as to overeat, and especially a craving for carbohydrates, which leads to weight gain. Other symptoms include a lack of energy, difficulty concentrating on completing tasks, and withdrawal from friends, family, and social activities. All of this leads to the depression, pessimism, and lack of pleasure which characterize a person suffering from this disorder.

[anigbrowl]

30. It's got a lot to do with geography

Finland is very far to the north. They're very short of sunlight (and thus vitamin D) in wintertime, and it's too cold to go out and do much, which also results in a lot of drinking.

[paulsby]

35. get your facts straight

suicide is, even in the US, more common than homicide.

it is true that european countries have (in general) lower homicide rates.

several euro countries have much higher suicide rates.

others, roughly equivalent.

[bread_and_roses]

57. oh, get a grip, and read more carefully

I was not comparing the # of suicides to homicides by Country but the number of deaths by guns (as far as I am concerned, all deaths by guns are "gun violence" - which is the term I used) in US to the # of suicides in the "happy" countries.

And - as should be obvious - the use of "100X" preceded by "probably" indicates casual usage for effect, not a presentation of "fact."

And yes, I was expressing disgust at the easy availability of firearms in the US. Having been sickened every few days by the crazed gun-wielders killing children - often their own, but the latest being those proud exemplars of our "2nd Amendment rights" who managed to slaughter a seven year old boy for "trespassing" - I don't much care about the exact figures. So if you want to attack me as a "gun-grabber" go right ahead - but don't attempt to pretend that what was obviously commentary was a scholarly presentation of data.

[eridani]

52. What's really weird is that Finland's rates are so much higher than those of Sweden and Norway

All share similar latitudes, so is isn't seasonal depression.

[smirkymonkey]

60. They also tend to be less religious, which removes that stigma, and

aren't as keen about talking about their feelings or emotions - The Finn's I have known made Danes look overly chatty. Given that with the weather and the drinking, I would assume they isolate themselves a lot. Bad combination.

[Hannah Bell]

65. data?

[Hannah Bell]

61. lol, it used to be sweden - until it wasn't. then japan.

"highest suicide rates" vary yearly.

most recently it's eastern europe. those bastions of no-longer-socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[krispos42]

12. Western European suicide rates run about 3x ours

Of course, their homicide rates run about 1/3 ours, so it's probably a wash.


You can check it out on nationmaster.com.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. Hmm, I'm not entirely convinced

All per 100,000 (and, inconveniently, nationmaster doesn't give a unified figure, only male and female separately), for the US and the 5 big Western European countries:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_mal-health-suicide-rate-males
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_sui_rat_fem-health-suicide-rate-females

        Male  Female
USA     19.8    4.4
Germany 21.8    8.3
France  30.4   10.8
UK      11.0    3.3
Italy    9.6    3.2
Spain   11.0    4.4

Weighting the Western European countries in the proportion 80:60:60:60:40 (their rough populations, in millions), we get 18.2 per 100,000 for males, and 6.26 for females. So it's pretty much even with the USA figures - slightly less men, and more women.

[krispos42]

47. Hmmm... I must have been thinking of the Baltic countries

And I'll trust you math there.


I guess I'd better stop making that point, then! :D

[Hannah Bell]

66. you must have missed the data for *eastern* europe.

and western europe has wide variance. france (13/100,000), sweden (13.2/100,000), luxemborg (10.9), ireland (9.7) netherlands (9.3), spain (7.8), etc. are in the same ballpark with US (11/100,000).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[cabluedem]

15. Very high rate of alcoholism too. Could be a connection perhaps? nt

[Chulanowa]

23. Far northern populations tend to have high suicide rates

Alaska, Norway, Russia, Finland, and the northern Canadian provinces all have some pretty odd rates of suicide. My thought is it's purely environmental. You ever lived up there? I had a hard as hell time adjusting to the winter / snummer sun cycle, and I was livving on the Alaskan Gulf Coast, not the far north.

[Prophet 451]

25. That's been my assumption too

Between the long nights and the bitter cold for parts of the year and the effects that lack of sunlight has on the human psyche, I would think much of it is enviromental. The Scandanavian nations have superb mental health services so I think we can remove lack of health care from the equation.

I have MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) and I've noticed that it gets worse in teh depths of winter.

[Diclotican]

63. Chulanowa

Chulanowa

Not that difficult to be used tot he winter/summer sun cycle... Just let it goes, lets say 100 year or so, then you are used to it:evilgrin: Just kidding;)... Off course it can be difficult - but I for one would never trade our summers for every dollar in the world... And if we are lucky we got some amazing long summers too... Where we can sit out and just be there to long out in the nights...

The winters can be hard - but it is wort it when you have our summers...

Diclotican

[bobbolink]

28. It's also a culture of "stiff upper lip" mentality.

When people are expected to keep things inside, the suicide rate obviously will go up.

[imdjh]

37. I suppose that could work both ways.

I was raised with an almost British respect for the ideas of perseverance and dignity. I went to funerals and admired people who showed those qualities. On the rare occasion when I have thought about suicide, the imperative of the stiff upper lip made the idea seem selfish, impractical, weak, and ultimately undesirable. When I was in a particularly self-destructive phase of my life, it was this mentality which worked as an alarm system signaling that what I was doing was in serious conflict with who I was and who I wanted to be. On the worst day of my life I thought about my grandfather, the most dignified man I ever knew, and the expectation of keeping a stiff upper lip. Sounds silly, but it works.

[bobbolink]

58. "Sounds silly, but it works" NO, not silly... just a good way to KILL compassion.

"TOUGHING IT OUT" has really gotten us far, hasn't it?

:sarcasm:

[Hannah Bell]

64. link? i'm not seeing that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

[bobbolink]

69. Well, there you go and just blow a good stereotype!

Too bad those evil Latin American countries are doing better than the US!

[Hannah Bell]

72. funny, though, that there are 15 posts analyzing why finland has the world's highest suicide

rate - when it doesn't.

nor does there seem to be any particular correlation with "socialist" policies.

i'd guess the biggest factor is age distribution, myself. older people everywhere tend to kill themselves more than other groups, for various reasons: ill health, poverty, lack of interest, loss of loved ones, isolation.

[G_j]

2. expected satisfaction with the future

or something like that, is used as a measure,

with the state of health care in this country, Americans can't expect a happy future.

[Enrique]

3. list:

10.Belgium
9.Norway
8.New Zealand
7.Switzerland
6.Canada
5.Ireland
4.Sweden
3.Netherlands
2.Finland
1.Denmark

[irislake]

19. Canada's Federal Government is Conservative.

Hopefully not for long. And although we are far to the left of the Unites States we are not a socialist country. (Alas.) Too much of the hypercapitalist poison spills over the border.

The US must be the most propagandized country on the planet. They keep telling you what a wonderful life you have compared to the rest of the world and many of you actually believe it. Well -- better than Iraq maybe, Afghanistan and Pakistan and wherever else you are "helping" them achieve the wonderful American democracy.

If I weren't seventy and at the end of my active life I'd move to Sweden.

[Mr. Ected]

5. I Still Find It Remarkable That 8 of the 10 Are European Nations

And having lived in the Netherlands for 5 years, I can fully understand why.

They ARE happier, folks. No matter how much the right wing in America despises them.

[Honeycombe8]

6. I read parts of that report when it came out. It was on TV, I think. You misunderstand, I think.

It's not that Norwegians and Denmark folks are "happier." It's that they rate themselves as more "content," less anguished, than other countries.

The study I saw went on to state that they are not, in fact, happier. They just don't live in a society that focuses on expectations or complaints....so they don't complain. They are more accepting of their lot, even when it's not so good.

That's not the same thing as happiness. The study did not rate happiness.

On the TV spiel I saw on that, it showed people on trains, etc., in Denmark or somewhere. They were, in fact, not smiling. They just don't smile that much. Which may explain why they rate themselves more content. They are just not as emotional as some others.

Is it better to be less expecting, more stoic, less emotional...less happy and then less sad? Or is it better to be more emotional, with higher highs but lower lows? To be really happy sometimes, but then be really sad sometimes?

It's up to the individual, I guess. I am by nature not one of those people who can go through life without a smile on my face, or a complaint when it truly is warranted and will make things better. So I wouldn't be so happy in Denmark, I think.

[Mr. Ected]

7. My Father Was Born and Raised In Denmark

And I have spent many, many months of my life there.

My father and his family are extraordinarily jovial and fun-loving...and so are the Danish people.

To suggest that they are dour and expressionless mischaracterizes their nature. Are they cheerfully singing songs on the train ride to work? Are you kidding?

[malaise]

13. I have a Danish brother in law

All of his folks are very happy people. He's a medical doctor but makes furniture as a hobby. He enjoys nothing more than taking us to those lovely old museums.

[Honeycombe8]

40. I'm just relaying the study's results, as they were shown on 60 Minutes or whatever.

And just reporting what I saw on teh train. They are more stoic in nature, aren't they? The cool northerner, as opposed to the hot-tempered Latin or Italian? Stereotypes, I'm sure, but some fact mixed in there, I think.

The study's upshot was that they don't expect that much, they are not apt to complain, so they rate themselves as more content. There was an interview with a few Danes (or whatever...one the icelandic countries), and they said as much. They don't walk around wanting this and that, and being unhappy if they don't get it. They're just plain ol' content. They said they weren't necessarily very happy, either.

I'm just reporting it as I remember it. There are exceptions to everything, and maybe the study is wrong.

[Sisaruus]

43. Check out the Helsinki Complaint Choir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATXV3DzKv68

(I'm Finnish-American and was accused twice on Friday of being an optimist by co-workers - probably because I'm content.)

[nichomachus]

26. You misundertand, I think

Much of what Americans rate as happiness is connected with grabbing more money, borrowing more money, an buying more crap -- giant flat screen TVs, ATVs, gas-guzzler trucks they don't need, 1,000 pairs of shoes. The trouble is that those things are drugs and the people need another fix tomorrow.

A lot of Americans have smiles on their faces -- and they're phoney. They smile to mask the emptiness that drives them back to the mall again tomorrow.

And I don't know who you hang out with in Europe. Because all my friends there smile all the time and are quite jolly. Maybe I just associate with the wrong people.

[Honeycombe8]

41. Happiness is subjective; therefore, whatever they think will make them happy is...

by definition, correct. There is nothing that can be wrong about it.

So when you gauge someone's happiness, you are gauging what they themselves desire for themselves to make themselves happy.

I have no doubt that much of Americans' happiness is tied to material things. We are a material country, for sure.

Not too many icelandic comedians. Ever wonder why? Lots and lots of American comedians, British comedians, Greek, some Russian, lots of Jewish comedians. The icelandic folks are great people, but are somewhat stoic in nature, aren't they? "Cool" types? Not prone to complaining? They take it on the chin? That type? They would, of course, then, rate themselves as more content than others who have high expectations and become disappointed when they don't meet those expectations, whether thru their own or fate's fault. But the Danes (or whoever) they interviewed, said outright that they aren't necessarily happier than others, or happy at all. They're just content, as they put it. Why worry? Good health, decent job...content.

I'm just reporting what I saw in teh story on teh study on 60 Minutes or Dateline or whatever.

[muriel_volestrangler]

46. Iceland population: 300,000

It's so small compared with other countries, you can't expect to know of anyone famous from Iceland in a particular field.

[Hannah Bell]

70. nothing like national stereotypes, is there?

Results 1 - 10 of about 134,000 for iceland comedian. (0.22 seconds)
Search ResultsYouTube - Icelandic comedian wins YukYuk´s standup competition

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Profane Icelandic comedian wins the opening round of YukYuk´s Great Canadian Laugh off competition.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FHdMEP1tGs
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Sódóma Reykjavík (1992) - IMDb user commentsIt is made by an Icelandic comedian Óskar Jónasson who

[paulsby]

38. good points. the swedes have a word for it.

it's called "lagom".

which kinda sorta means "adequate" or "good enough".

it's a very different culture. it's almost looked down upon to want certain things. saying something is "lagom" has a different meaning than when we say something is just ok.



america is a much more individualistic country.

fwiw, i would HATE to live in sweden. i can think of several nations i would like (but none as much as the USA), but sweden is not one of them.

and don't even get me started on swedish cuisine.

[Diclotican]

68. paulsby

paulsby

It is not that bad at living in Sweden mr Paulsby;).. I have been there many, many times over the last decade or so, and I have allways enjoymet when I was there... My father was living there after he emigrated to Sweden in early 1990s, it was more easy to get a job in Sweden then than in Norway those days... So I know little about sweden from the "inside" so to speak..

But the world "lagom" have many meanings, not just "okay" but also a lot of other meanings not easy told to another language.

But maybe we in the northen Europa, and then specially in Scandinavia are kontent with not all this fancy thing you can get, if you work your ass out of you as it looks like many in US are doing it?.. If you have a roof over your head, food and a good life, then you dosen't need so mutch other thing I guess..

The Swedish cuisine is not that bad.. Even that they do have some cusine who is "interesting" to say at least... But for the most part, the swedish cuisine is "lagom":P

Diclotican

[paulsby]

71. i'm not saying it's bad

i'm saying it's not for ME.

there's a difference.

it's kind of like led zeppelin. i respect led zeppelin, i recognize that they were wildly innovative, and kick-ass. i just don't particularly enjoy most of their work.

its a matter of taste.

i am pretty content with not having lots of luxury. if i was obscenely rich, i wouldn't live much differently than i do now.

i am just very much in love with the american way of life, and not so much the swedish way.

i like france, canada, mexico, panama, etc.

wouldn't want to live in any of those places.

although i do really like costa rica.

[Diclotican]

73. paulsby

paulsby

Off course, the country of your home, is where you might like it best;).. I for one was at one time really thinking about emigrate to the US, but for some reason or another it was never happening.. And today I believe I am to old to start all over again just because I wanted another scenery:P..

ONE thing is to like an another country, a whole other thing is to living there all day.. And I am totally in agreement with you, that the country you are used to live in, is the best country to live in.. Today I would not leave Norway for almost everything in the world.. I like myself here, and have a comfortable life here.. Not rich, but could have it worse...
Have never been to Costa Rica, so I don't know.. But I know that before I die I would try to visit US again.. You have an amazing country there... And I would love to visit more of it.. And you in US have A LOT of been proud of when the dice is coming down..
Even that I guess the last 8 year with mr "decider" have doing more harm than good is... But I guess that even this is something that US in time wil get right.. In time..

And yes Led Zepelin was a great band.. Even that the sound is not to my taste..
Diclotican

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. Please Don't Burst The OP's Naive Socialism Bubble. That's Just Not Nice.

Great post.

[alfredo]

8. Is pot legal in many of those countries?

[Prophet 451]

24. A few

It's famously legal in the Netherlands, I believe Canada has a sort-of semi-legal approach. In most of the rest, it's technically still illegal to various degrees but many coppers turn a blind eye to it.

[alfredo]

34. We need to become armed with reports on how decriminalization has

worked there so we can dispute the reactionary party when they start spreading lies.

[Prophet 451]

42. Start with Holland

Germany has a similar semi-legal approach. A quick Google should be able to pull up all teh facts and figures you could ever want.

[alfredo]

45. Good. We have Gatewood in our state and he's pretty good about

spreading the word.

[eridani]

54. Sweden is Singapore North, however n/t

[alfredo]

9. I thought Disneyland was the happiest place on earth.

[avaistheone1]

10. Only if you can afford the park entry fees.

What is just entry cost for a family of four for day there now? $300 to $500?

[alfredo]

14. I avoid it like the plague. It would be more fun to drop acid and then ram

a spike through my skull.

[arikara]

20. Seriously?

I'm surprised they are still in business then. That's ridiculous.

[Ilsa]

22. I seem to recall paying $80 for a single day's ticket to Epcot back

around 1986 or so. $400 for a family of four probably hasn't kept up with inflation.

Edited for misspelling.

[SmileyRose]

32. My brother just bought Disney World tickets/hotel/meals all $1700/5 days for 4

Included with this 5-night/6-day vacation package:

* Hotel Stay - 5-night accommodations.
* Theme Park Tickets - 6-day ticket for admission to one of 4 Theme Parks each day.
* FREE Disney Dining Plan* - Includes one quick-service meal, one select snack and one meal at a table-service restaurant per person, per night of your package. Excludes gratuities.


they uped it to park hopper passes which cost them about $200 more total ($10 per ticket per day)

[TahitiNut]

17. But, but, but ... we're only supposed to PURSUE happiness ... not catch it.

:dunce:

[bobbolink]

59. And if you wash your hands enough, there is no danger of catching it.

[Jade Fox]

18. I read about this study awhile ago......

I like to quote it to my "tax whiner" colleagues at work. ;)

[Mr. Ected]

21. Every Single One of These Countries Has Universal Health Care

Every single one of them.

Of course, we all know that the United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.

[eridani]

55. All the other industrialized countries with lower happiness rates have it too n/t

[Mika]

29. Anyone considered that they ride bicycles a lot more in those European countries?

Riding bicycles turns one into a socialist. ;)

[Mr. Ected]

49. You're Absolutely Right. None of Them Is Technically Socialist

Though Sweden is borderline, with its abundance of state-run industry, numerous govt. social programs, and other identifying traits.

Nevertheless, with all of the countries on the list supporting universal health care, you can bet your bottom dollar that conservatives consider these places "socialist"...wealth redistribution and all that.

[Sisaruus]

50. The $141,000 Finnish speeding tickets

Finland bases the fines for speeding on income. I'm sure the conservatives would find fault with this.
http://www.globalmotors.net/finnish-millionaire-gets-111888-euro-speeding-ticket/

[anigbrowl]

31. These countries aren't socialist

They are social democracies. There is a significant difference. I have visited or lived in several of these countries. There are lots of good things which we could learn from them...but they're not socialist.

[Vidar]

33. K&R.

[Lorien]

51. Here's a video on the topic:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1

[pnutbutr]

56. US scored 74 out of 100

#10 on the list scored 76. The US is not that far off and considering it takes up a much more massive landmass and significantly larger and more diverse population one would expect the number to be a bit lower. Nevermind the fact that the questions had nothing to do with the government makeup and services provided but only asked about an individuals personal experiences during a single day. Also, the 1000 people per country that were questioned make up a larger percentage of the population for the smaller nations which can skew the end result.

Poorly done study that means jack shit IMO.

[LanternWaste]

67. There seems to be a lot of implied nationalism

There seems to be a lot of implied nationalism on this thread-- the kind I imagine was quite popular in Britain as the 19th century came to close and a lot of Brits chose to maintain the the Empire was and always would be in good order.

And, as the British Empire (and every empire preceding it) had its peak and followed that by its eventual melodramatic swan-song and slow demise into second-power nationhood, so too will the U.S., regardless of who admits it or not.