No democrats or republicans will be charged RE: torture (nor should they be)

[TwixVoy]

I think saddest thing about this is the fact that EVERYONE knew. Hell, I personally knew. Anyone remember Abu Gharib? Did anyone really believe that was an isolated incident? If anyone is so naive I pity them.

Here is a news flash folks - just because CNN isn't telling you something is happening doesn't mean it hasn't happened. After Abu Gharib it was obvious to me this was happening on a regular basis, and I consider my self naive and trusting. If it wasn't obvious to you then I don't know what to tell you.

But sitting around and screaming "the outrage!" is all BS political games. I am calling BS on it just like I called BS on the evil swine flu. Anyone who was paying even the slightest bit of attention during the bush years should have had a clue.

The fact is you can't trust ANYONE in high ranking government office to do the ethical thing. Maybe too many here are too young to remember shit like Watergate. After a couple decades of watching this shit you figure the game out.

They are constantly doing unethical illegal things behind the scenes. That will continue no doubt as long as the USA exists, and I have no expectation of it stopping until then. No one will be held accountable. That is not how the game works. If you honestly think anyone will be held accountable then you are still too young to have figured it out.

Sure, we might see a fall guy go down just like the most recent Bernie Madoff. We might see a big media show holding someone "accountable" for torture, but it will be a show to appease the masses should they get angry enough. If there was any real justice half the CEOs in this country would be in jail along with Bernie Madoff. The fact they aren't demonstrates it was another show trial.

We are much like the citizens of Rome and the rich and powerful of this country know it. Throw out a human sacrifice to fight the lions every time the citizenry gets angry enough, throw the average citizen some bread every now and then, keep the gladiators going and everyone will be sedated enough to let the rich and powerful go about their business as usual.

Sorry if the truth hurts, but like my recent posts on Bernie Madoff and swine flu I say bookmark this post. A few months from now this particular show will be over and the next one will be going on. This issue is dead to me because I already know the outcome.

Here are some Senators laughing at us regarding another issue important to our well being: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5623552

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xntn4Zv17oc


Try not to go too crazy on this issue as I can assure you they are laughing right now. I try never to get too upset about these kinds of things as a way to keep my dignity because I know they watch us and laugh as a form of entertainment.

[suede1]

1. I agree everyone knew. But I also think that we are close to being able to push them in the right

direction. Giving up because the game is fixed is what's been happening since the 70's. We need to act like people did in the 30's and 60's and demand action.

On edit: We also know that the lies leading up to war, and Plame etc. are being ignored. But, when the media shines a light, it means we're making progress.

[TwixVoy]

2. Sadly it will have to get much worse

before enough people demand action.

Just might happen though. We'll see if the banks can continue business as usual. Follow the money. If they can't keep up the economic game (indebting the public to corporations for life) things will change. That is the root cause of all of this... money is what motivates these people in all things. It is the root of it all.

[suede1]

3. Sadly you're right about that. If the numbers on the economy get better quickly,

I think apathy will be the order of the day once more.

(Still want the economy to get better, just want people to stay involved.)

[EFerrari]

4. I disagree with the outcome of this one.

The world won't stand for a big fat nothing this time. Cheney and his mafia blew it. They overreached and affected too many people all over the world. If Eric Holder can't do it, someone else will, likely Spain. I don't think what is coming can be stopped any more. Not this time.

/oops

[TwixVoy]

5. We'll see

as I say bookmark this.

[Webster Green]

6. I do hope you are correct on the outcome.

These people have committed some of the worst crimes imaginable. They should face justice. :mad:

[DatManFromNawlins]

8. The world?

Here's the thing about the world: they can't donate to US politicians and they can't vote in US elections. Their opinions mean about as much as the jokes on a scrap of Bazooka chewing gum, because no matter how angry some of them are, they don't want the CIA and NSA breathing down their necks and giving away information to lock THEM up for their misdeeds. If you don't think administrations don't bat cleanup for their predecessors, then you haven't been paying attention.

[EFerrari]

9. Pinochet probably thought he was safe, too. n/t

[madokie]

23. I totally agree with you

The argument is if we are going to do it ourselves or if Spain has to do it us. One does not do what the bush/cheney gang has done and walk away as free people.

[Truth2Tell]

7. I can't disagree with anything in your post. K&R. nt

[MrSlayer]

10. America has been torturing people from the beginning.

Bush didn't start it, Obama won't end it. No one said anything because no one cared, it was business as usual. You're just not supposed to be so goddamn blatant about it.

[Senator]

11. "nor should they be" ??

If that's what you meant to say, you seem to have forgotten to say why they should not.

---

[No Elephants]

15. Apparently, because it's always been done. So, we should continue to do

nothing about it. I'm thinking the OP thought to impress us with how smart and sophisticated he or she is. If that was not the intent of the post, I have no idea what the point might be.

[TwixVoy]

19. Yup it is what I meant

and I say nor should they be because we ALL knew what bushco was doing. The fact we as a people did not rise up and stop it means we are ALL guilty. If we hold them accountable we also need to hold ourselves accountable. I don't see that happening. I see no protests in the streets. People who refuse to stand up and do anything have no place demanding anyone be held accountable.

When the people posting that they want "accountability" (while pretending they had no idea what was going on) get out from behind the computer keyboard and are out on the streets as they should be I will take them a little more seriously.

We all knew bushco was committing high crimes. Fuck, we knew it from day one when the election was stolen to begin with. We knew war crimes were being committed the day the Iraq war started and the first civilian died. Anyone who claims they didn't know these kinds of crimes were being committed is either a liar or grossly ignorant.

[Senator]

21. I see. The "Blame Americans First" canard.

Please refer to post #17 for an episode of "Larisa Explains It All."

I would only add that speaking in such vague generalities about people is not a particularly effective method of persuasion -- unless of course you're just trying to convince yourself of something.

---

[Jester Messiah]

12. Let the light shine in on these cockroaches

OP rightly recognizes the unaccountability of the powerful (or their own perception thereof), but we are living in a future that the old men in power can scarce comprehend. They haven't adapted to the new reality because they feel they don't have to. They merely use their hirelings to shield them from having to adapt. Rather than learn to use an e-mail client, they have their staff print hard copies, or more likely they have their staff handle all communications while they head out to the golf course. That being the case, they are woefully unprepared for the pitfalls of the modern era. Their most closely guarded secrets, their Fort Knox if you will, have the equivalent of Mall Cop security.

In this era of instantaneous communications, where nothing can be censored and there are legions of hackers just aching to crack your security (Palin's e-mail anyone?), the unaccountability of power is disappearing like smoke in the wind.

[progressoid]

13. Yep

If the B* admin hadn't been so cavalier and brazen about it, it would have been seen as a couple isolated incidents. Not a coordinated effort.

Now we can go back to doing it in secret or by proxy like in the good old days.

[No Elephants]

14. Not understanding. Are you recommending apathy and resignation? If so,

thanks, but America has too much of those already.

[lala_rawraw]

18. that is how I read it as well

[pmorlan1]

16. I Disagree With You

I disagree with you that everybody knew about torture. When the Abu Ghraib story broke right before the 2004 election the MSM uncritically reported the Bush administration's claim that it was just a few bad apples. They also passed along the GOP talking point that anyone who was using what happened at Abu Ghraib against Bush was doing so for political reasons. Those of us here at DU, knew better because we are news junkies and don't just get our news from the MSM but most of our citizens are not news junkies so they knew only what the MSM told them. Can they be faulted for not looking beyond what the MSM told them? Yes, but that does not give the criminals a free pass just because they didn't. And even if they had all known that there was a torture program that is no reason not to prosecute those who perpetrated these crimes.

Yes we know the "village" will do everything in it's power to protect the torturers including telling everyone to give up because you won't win. I'm not willing to give up and anyone who is should stop trying to help the criminals by encouraging others to give up holding their leaders accountable. We need more people, not less pushing for accountability. I'm sorry if you've given up the fight but a lot of us haven't and your cynical view that because they've gotten away with it before means that you never try again is just the words of a quitter. We may not be successful in holding these people accountable but if we give up now they most certainly won't be held accountable. By the way I also disagree with you that being a quitter helps you retain your "dignity". Bull Hockey. I find nothing dignified about people who give up fighting for what's right just because they don't want to be disappointed if they lose.

[No Elephants]

22. Members of Congress should be at least as up to speed and analytical

as message board posters. Posting is a hobby. Being a member of Congress is a responsibility to the American people.

One of the Congressional roles under our Constitutional system of checks and balances is to be a check on the President and the entire Executive Branch.

Another Congressional responsiblity is to keep the oath they take:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

The Ccnstitution says that the COTUS, the laws enacted by Congress and treaties to which the United States is a party are the supreme law of the land. So, you cannot support and defend the COTUS without supporting and defending those laws as well. And you certainly cannot "faithfully discharge the office" of Senator or Representative by looking the other way as the Executive Branch violates treaties and domestic law, be it torture, warrantless wiretaps or whatever.

Whatever Congress knew or did not know, it had a duty to either know or find out. At the very least, every member of Congress had PLENTY of reason to believe an investigation might turn up wrongdoing, yet Congress chose not to investigate.

I am not for excusing Congress, any more than I am for being resigned and cynical. Both extremes support wrongdoing. Is it as wrong to look the other way as it is to do wrong? It's easy to say "Of course not." unless your loved one is one of the deceased. However, that is irrelevant to me.

I am not a judge and therefore I do not need to trouble my head about deciding whether some wrongs are equal or unequal. I just have to figure out what my responsiblity as a citizen is today. I've decided the following;

1/ I give whatever I reasonably can to ACLU and Amnesty International.

2/ I volunteer as much as I reasonably can for both.

3/ I sign their online petitions (ACLU: Special Prosecutor, which I prefer, but Amnesty International is calling for af Independent Commission)

4/ I write my Senators, my Rep and www.whitehouse. gov about every two weeks asking for an Independent Counsel re: the Bush adminstration, including, but not limited to, torture, or a Special Prosecutor with power to report on all matters, including those that do not result in prosecution.

5/ I intend to consider my primary votes a lot more carefully and vigorously in the future than I have in the past and will probably favor challengers more than I have in the past. (Maybe the devil you know is NOT really better than the devil you don't know, despite the saying.)

[lala_rawraw]

17. to say "everyone knew"

is an oversimplification. moreover, to equate "knowing" about Abu Ghraib and "approving" those techniques and carrying out this methods is way out of line. what the public "knew" was that something god awful was going on at Abu Ghraib. the more informed knew that it could not have gone on without approval of higher-ups, but still, there were no certainties - largely because no one could explain why this was done or was even needed for anyone to use as a matter of policy. frankly, most of us never thought our own leadership - no matter what we thought of them - would engage in this kind of savage policy. but once we all started to suspect more aggressively, we began to demand investigations and accountability. simply knowing something is not the issue. knowing it and failing to act to stop it is the issue. i have - as many others here and elsewhere - have been incredibly vocal and aggressive in demanding accountability and justice for those harmed, in some cases killed.

Dems who knew and also knew the particulars (which we don't yet know to be true) are as guilty as the Republicans who knew and also knew the particulars and DID NOT act to stop illegal, immoral, criminal behavior.

so while I understand where you are coming from, I fully and vehemently disagree. the knowing, specifically the knowing of particulars, specifically, the knowing the particulars and failing to act is where the line is drawn and has always been.

[ProgressiveFool]

20. thank you, that is what I was going to say /nt